How to Leave a Job on Good Terms?

An anonymous reader writes "I've been working for a small development company for 6 or 7 years. My boss has always been a bit nuts but overall it hasn't been a bad experience. I recently accepted a great job offer for a technology position in a different industry. I gave my boss my notice this week, and while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients. (who, thankfully, also think he is nuts) I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave. Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked, or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"

Comments

My two cents...

[TripMaster Monkey]

My boss has always been a bit nuts...

Been there...I sympathize.

...while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients.

There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.

I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.

You know, strictly speaking, it is his responsibility to find a replacement for your position, not yours. You should remind him of this in no uncertain terms.

Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"

Just remember that giving a company notice before you leave is not a requirement...it is a courtesy you are extending as part of a positive professional relationship. Frankly, I'd ask him for a letter of recommendation up front, and if he refuses, or threatens to give you a less than optimal review, you simply do not owe him the courtesy of notice.

In short, don't devalue yourself, and don't let him devalue you, either.

Re:My two cents...

[TheWanderingHermit]

...while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients.

There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.

Speaking from a point of view of someone who spent years working with people in therapy, it sounds like this person has some issues that go deeper than the anger and frustration most people deal with. While I would normally advocate standing up for yourself (which isn't necessarily a confrontation), that fact that you start by saying he's always been a little nuts makes me suspect any confrontation will blow up.

In simple terms, it sounds like he's in denial over what's going on and blames you. In his mind, he probably already sees you as disloyal and even out to get him. This is not a reasonable view, but everything you say fits with that possibility. If that is so, anything you do will be viewed as an attack, and only add fuel to his fire of hate. So if you confront him, there's a chance he could blow up, start calling you names, or just walking away, then burning you in some other way.

Only you can decide what is and is not important to you. At this point, he's made it clear he considers it okay to withhold your paycheck. I can't tell if it's a bluff, or if he's serious (from what little we have here), but be aware that he is likely holding it hostage. Normally a boss thinks he has control becasue he can fire someone or stop paying them. With only a short time left, he feels he can no longer control you, so he's using that paycheck as his way to make sure you stay in line.

While it sounds lame, you might be best to try to difuse the situations with humor -- just not at his expense. Or, if he trashes you in front of a crowd of employees or clients, and you feel a need to stick up for yourself, you can always say something like, "He's been treating me that way ever since I turned in my notice,' and try to make it into a joke. He won't take it well, though.

Re:My two cents...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd also add that it might be a good idea to send letters/emails of appreciation to your co-workers and the clients of your company. Don't say anything negative AT ALL in the letter, focus only on the positives you believe you have experienced in the company. Go over your reasons for making the job change(don't mention money, focus on the positive opportunities you see yourself as having at the new company) and express your heartfelt gratitude for having gotten to work with and gotten to know such excellent people. Make sure everyone you have more than a "hi/bye" interaction with gets a copy. Including your boss.

This way, no matter what he says, people get to hear from you your reasons and get to hear from you the positive experiences you're taking away from the position. This will foster "warm fuzzy feelings" among many who might only ever hear "his side".

Let me stress, don't be negative in that letter/email at all. It is imperative that you not be negative at all.

Re:My two cents...

[TheWanderingHermit]

OK...let me be a little clearer here. I never advocated that the writer challenge the manager's sanity. In fact, personal attacks like this will most certainly only make the situation immeasurably worse.

Maybe not, but it all depends on how the boss perceives it. For example, soon after I left teaching in treatment programs, I worked as a property manager for someone in serious need of therapy. He was an alcoholic in denial, as well as gay and in denial (he had relationships, but went to absurd lengths to hide them -- it would have been comical if this person wasn't so sick). One time a property owner called up, asking me a ton of questions about a problem with one of his properties we managed. It turned out later that the problem was caused because my boss (the drunk) had not done his job. I didn't know that at the time, so when the boss (who was in the room listening) didn't hear me take full blame for everything immediately, once I hung up, he started yelling at me, saying I screwed up and was blaming him -- and that I was out to get him and his job.

If you want to analyze it, he knew he screwed up, but couldn't accept it, so since he "knew" it was his fault, even without me knowing it -- or accusing, or anything, in his eyes, since I did not just roll over and take it, he assumed I knew it was him, and was trying to blame him. To you and I, it doesn't make sense, but to him, it did.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I am pointing out that there is enough to make me (a former pro in dealing with people who need treatment) suspect there is a problem with this boss. What you and I see as a challenge, the boss very likely will see as an attack. It doesn't have to be an attack, it doesn't have to look like one -- all it takes to set a person like this off is for him, in his twisted mind, to see it as an attack. I've seen many people in treatment (or in need of treatment) who have lied through their teeth, and all it took was one person even vaguely suggesting one of their lies was not 100% correct to set that person off.

Yes, he's making false accusations, but in the post, the writer made it clear the clients and employees knew the boss was nuts. If he can gracefully difuse the situation, and continue to act with integrity, none of them will have any question who is professional and trustworthy. Don't act under the assumption that because someone is calling names, those names reflect at all on the "callee". More than anything, and this seems especially true in this case, they make the boss look unreasonable and unprofessional, and as long as the person being insulted acts with dignity and integrity, he will look better (especially in the long run) by not attacking.

It's like if a kid attacks you -- if you deck him, you look terrible. If you maintain your dignity and do as little as possible to fend him off, you look much better. That's because we all know the kid is at a disadvantage, and here it seems quite obvious the boss is like a kid -- at least emotionally.

Normally I would agree with you, but this boss seems unstable, and with such a person, as I said (and it bears repeating), something that, to you and I, seems not only reasonable but also appropriate could be perceived as an attack by him -- especially if it comes anywhere near threatening his twisted perception of reality.

Re:My two cents...

[TheWanderingHermit]

This is only one of MANY posts about the last paycheck. Some go so far as to say sue him. Some say talk to HR, but the company might be so small the boss might own it.

Since the boss is emotionally unstable (I mentioned that earlier in this thread), it might be unwise to mention anything about the check ahead of time. Go by to pick it up at the regular time, as you always would, as if nothing were wrong. If it's not there, ask him about it. If he tries holding it back, then it is time to take action. You're best off being understated. Just shrug and say, "Okay, I'll take it up with the Labor Board, under section xxx" (if you can cite a section, that might help).

If there is an HR department, go there first, if not, or after HR, then go to the state (or other appropriate authority) and file a complaint. Make sure you have a copy of the letter or form. It might help to show it to the boss, and that may be all you need, but if he is volitile, just stay away and wait until the authorities handle it.

If he "officially" tells you ahead of time he's withholding it (instead of just threatening), ask him why and see if you can get it in writing. In either case, document it clearly, write up a letter to complain to either HR or the labor board, and, on the last day, bring it up before you leave. Again, be understated, but know that you WILL get the check, it's just a question of when and whether he gives it to you or has to deal with HR or the authorities. Don't be cocky, just sure. If necessary, tell him what you've been told by HR or the labor board. Don't be a know it all, but say just enough to let him know you have resources.

Now, on the other hand, if at any time in this process he starts to act unstable, GET OUT. Your goal should be to get the check, not to confront him, piss him off, or prove to him you're right. If you can keep your ego out of this, you'll do great. If you let your ego lead you, you'll end up in a blow out with him, and it'll make it even harder to get the check.

Re:My two cents...

[TripMaster Monkey]

I see where you're coming from....I was making the assumption that this manager, while superfically unreasonable, is fundamentally capable of rational thought, while you're reminding us that that assumption may not be valid.

This is indeed a troubling scenario...in most situations, the best course would be to smile and nod, and walk on eggshells around him. However, in this situation, this potentially unbalanced person has the ability to cause serious damage to the writer's professional reputation and career. Another poster on this topic made the statement that the only thing a technical profesional really possesses is their reputation...a point with which I agree wholeheartedly.

To borrow your analogy of a kid attacking you, as long as he is unarmed, you may be able to safely ignore him, but if he starts attacking with a club, knife, or gun (in short, if his attacks now have the potential to cause real damage), you are within your rights to protect your own well-being.

Clearly, if the manager is indeed unbalanced, the writer has a very fine line to walk for the next couple weeks. in this situation, the only constructive advice I can offer is to make every attempt to appear as the rational and reasonable party...while still taking the necessary steps to defend one's professional reputation.

Re:My two cents...

[Nogami_Saeko]

Here's my $0.02.

Unless that final paycheque is big, BIG bucks - walk out the door and don't come back.

Really, is the stress and bullshit worth the money? If it's gonna be a month or so, put your expenses on a credit card for a month (keep 'em reasonable), and just pay it off when you get the new job.

In the meantime, you owe yourself some R&R by the sound of it, so take a month (or whatever) off and enjoy life :P

N.

Re:My two cents...

[TheWanderingHermit]

I was making the assumption that this manager, while superfically unreasonable, is fundamentally capable of rational thought, while you're reminding us that that assumption may not be valid.

That's about it. Thanks -- you summarized it MUCH better than I did.

It's also important to remember a person like this may show rational thought in many areas, but still be emotionally unbalanced in others.

Yes, I agree about a reputation being important, and this boss can hurt it, but from what we have, it seems most people around him are aware that the boss has issues. I would also think that people who worked with him for a while would easily know the score. Yes, the manager does have a weapon, but if everyone is aware he is toons (no, that was never a term we used technically!), it is less effective.

FWIW, in the job I mentioned, the firm had been around for over 20 years. At one time it had a good reputation, but over the past 10 years they had earned a reputation in their area (which was a poor area of houses as old as pre-civil war and was undergoing gentrification) as being cheap, cheating the tenent, and even abusing their authority. My boss, and his boss (the owner) were largely responsible for that. There were only the three of us in the company, and about 6 months after I started, the owner died. About 5 months later, with my boss running the company and the executrice (sp?) of the will still not having sold the company, I found out I would not get a paycheck that week -- legal problems, the estate being in debt, etc. While they admitted owning me, they did not have the money to pay. I asked how much they were selling the company for, and got on the phone. I seriously considered talking to my family, getting the backing, buying the company, and firing my boss.

This is appropos because my boss was largely responsible for the bad reputation of the company and many people in the area had dealt with him and specifically cursed him in public (and quite often!). I made a lot of calls and found out that in the 11 months I had been there, I had developed quite a reputation. I never bragged or badmouthed my company or boss, but the whole area basically had the attitude of, "Don't deal with the company, but if you have to, deal with him -- he'll treat you as fair as you can, unless his boss won't let him."

In less than a year, while I was working for a company with a crappy reputation, everyone in the area basically knew I would stick to my word and they could trust me, while nobody trusted my boss (who, at almost 50, was known to run out of the front office and literally hide in a closet when certain tenents or property owners came in to handle business).

So, while I'm bias, and speaking of a unique situation, would I would think most people will know the score and separate the boss's anger from the employee's responsibility. They've already had a lot of time to see what's going on. And, if he maintains his dignity, often it is possible to make sure you act properly as the other person gets more and more irrational, then, without saying anything negative, you've held up, and the other person has ruined their rep by getting angry because he wouldn't play their game.

Re:My two cents...

[Otter]

I'd also add that it might be a good idea to send letters/emails of appreciation to your co-workers and the clients of your company.

You bring up an important point I haven't seen others mention -- not burning bridges isn't just about you and your boss, it's about everyone else involved, any of whom might be in a position to help or hurt you down the road.

Re:My two cents...

[Cpt_Kirks]

If you live in texas you are in reasonably good shape on the final paycheck thing.

Hell, in Texas you can probably shoot his ass for pulling shit like that.

Re:My two cents...

[mdfst13]

"They wrote me off, denied my unemployment claim, and withheld the paycheck for the two weeks' vacation."

Technically, they may have been legally in the right in your case. To take a vacation, you have to come back at the end. I.e. you were required to come in for the exit interview.

This guy's situation is different. He's actively working. It is not legal to withhold a pay check for work actually done. It is legal to fire someone (and not pay them) for not complying with reasonable work demands (e.g. an exit interview).

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad work experience. However, an exit interview is not an unreasonable request. Heck, I'd think of it as standard procedure.

Hello Mcfly, Suck it up!

[lecithin]

"Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"

Easy. You don't have any losses. You have a job waiting for you.

Stick with it until you said you would. ALWAYS keep to your word especially when leaving an employer. If they want you gone now, they will walk you out of the building.

It is your bosses problem, not yours. This sounds like a me vs you thing. If it is so bad, talk to your HR. The odds are that if everybody knows your boss is nuts, they do to. If they don't know, they want to know.

Do you believe that you are responsible for finding your replacement? I don't understand how they could keep your paycheck if YOU don't find a replacement.

If your boss thinks that he cannot replace you, put some bait in front of him. Ask if they can match an offer or do something to change your work environment. Even if you have no interest in staying, it buys time and allows you to leave with a smile on your face when YOU say no.

Back to the original though. DO NOT QUIT EARLY! You gave your word and it is a small world. It would suck to have this bite you in the ass. In a few weeks it will be over and you will laugh at it.

Oh yea...

You insensitive clod! You have a JOB! You have an OFFER and a JOB! You have a 'soon to be X Boss' that you can &uck with? Quit bitching! :)

Get over it! Screw with the Boss and have fun. You are leaving, he has no control over you. You have an offer, you don't need his reference. Get prepared for your new career and forget the past.

I am curious what the "different industry" is. Did you take up Hindu? :)

Advice

[DarkHelmet]

Obviously, threatening to withhold your final paycheck for something like this is against the law. Report him to the labor board if he does actually withhold it.

Otherwise, just be polite, but firm. If he burns bridges, it's his choice. You did your best.

Solicitor's advice , not slashdot's!

[norfolkboy]

This sounds legally dubious.

You need the advice of a solictor. Especially if he is withholding pay, and damaging your reputation.

We all understand...

[MoonFacedAssassin]

The main question you have to ask yourself is "Do I need this job experience on my resume?" If you are compelled to answer yes, then your best bet is to leave as cordially as possible, but explain to any other interviewer, if necessary, that you left to pursue an advancement of your career and your supervisor resented it. I say "if necessary" because there's no point conveying that if the interviewer doesn't contact them for reference. Granted, it's tough to find out whether or not they will be contacting them.

Most sane and mature employers understand that as long as you give them notice of the termination of employment that the burden of employee replacement is on the employer, not you. The fact that your current employer is doing this proves how immature he is. Withholding the last paycheck may be something stipulated in documents you signed at the beginning of employment so you may want to look those over.

I have had previous employers that I have had issues with personally, but tried my best not to burn the bridge myself. If they had burned the bridge, I would definitely talk to their boss about this. If they didn't have a boss above them then I would gladly have had choice words for them. It's all a judgement call, but if you need this on your resume, definitely don't burn the bridge yourself.

Don't publically call your boss 'nuts'

[tonsofpcs]

DO NOT write anything like the following in a slashdot article: My boss has always been a bit nuts.

Re:Don't publically call your boss 'nuts'

[Fyz]

Well, I did submit as an anonymous reader...

Whoops.

And now: My two cents...

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

You know, strictly speaking, it is his responsibility to find a replacement for your position, not yours. You should remind him of this in no uncertain terms.

There's no "stricly speaking" about it. You have no responsibility on this point.

If everyone knows your current boss is a nut case, just try to live with it until you leave. If you can't stand it, just walk out. You already have a follow-on job, and you don't need this guy, if he's going to bad mouth you anyway, cut your loss and don't show up tomorrow.

Re:And now: My two cents...

[Anonymous Coward]

> If you can't stand it, just walk out.

Fuck that.

Next time he gives you some lip, you make your move. Prepare your revenge by eating nothing but Taco Bell, bran muffins, and cheap whiskey for the next three days. Then you wait until you're in the next board meeting and someone asks if there are any comments. Jump up on the table and say "Yeah! I got a comment!" Then you whip your cock out and smack him in the face with it. He'll freeze out of shock, and while he's standing there bugeyed 'cause he's just been cockslapped you whirl around and go all Tubgirl on him! With any luck he'll slip in the poo and fall down, and finding himself face down in a steaming puddle of whiskey-poo he'll most likely hurl like a 90-pound freshman cheerleader at her first frat kegger. The combined smell of poo and hurl should cause a chain reaction around the boadroom as the entire staff voids their stomachs and bowels in a cataclysmic emetic eruption of Biblical proportions. While everyone's flailing around in a growing lake of filth, you slip out the side window.

As the coup de grace, you run to his house and tell his wife he's been busted for child pornography. She'll run screaming to her mother, which will leave you unfettered in his home. Get his daughter *and* the dog pregnant, burn down the house, and create a huge upside-down pentagram on his front lawn in weed killer.

"Just walk out?"

Feh.

That's not the kind of talk that got us through Guadalcanal, you know?

Re:And now: My two cents...

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent post was childish, offensive, and disgusting.

Mod parent UP, baby!!! Yeah!!!

Re:And now: My two cents...

[serutan]

Seriously dude, your boss can feel any way he wants about you leaving, but telling you you have to find your own replacement crosses the line. You have to take him aside right away and tell him very directly and matter of factly that you aren't going to find him another employee, and he's not going to withhold any of your pay. Employee turnover is a normal part of doing business and he just has to deal with it. Staying 6 or 7 years at a job is way longer than average, and (I assume) you've done good work for him during those years. There's no reason you can't part on good terms, and no reason for him to make threats. Most people respond to straightforward statements of facts. Try to be friendly. It sounds like you genuinely want to be. But if he acts like a jerk and actually does try not to pay you, you have to be prepared to get a lawyer to write a demand letter. [If it came to that, I'd demand the pay plus the cost of the lawyer writing the letter, with a clear statement that the next step will be a lawsuit including punitive damages and legal costs.]

Your boss isn't Mr. Krabs. This is the real world and he has to live in it. I'm sure that unless he's truly crazy he really doesn't want to deal with a lot of legal crap just because you hurt his feelings or whatever.

Re:And now: My two cents...

[youknowmewell]

Sounds like you have some experience with this.

Re:And now: My two cents...

[3vi1]

Remind me to never piss you off.

Re:And now: My two cents...

[tomhudson]

Since he's acting so irresponsibly, there's no reason to stay:

1. Document it (use one of those mini-mp3 players with the built-in mic)
2. Quit, and let him know why you're quiting, and that as far as yuo're concerned, his actions are harrassment and constructive dismissal
3. Demand 5 weeks pay in lieu of severance (1 week per year). If you don't get it, sue

And before everyone starts whining about how you can't record a conversation without the other persons' consent - YOU'RE NOT ON THE PHONE!

Re:And now: My two cents...

[Cpt_Kirks]

No, much better would be to FIND him a replacement. Surely you know someone who's even a bigger pyscho asshole as your boss. Hire him.

With a little luck, they will kill each other.

Other choices:

- Really Smelly Homeless Guy
- Seriously, Seriously Flaming Gay Guy (best if boss is a homophobe)
- One of those guys who is SUPER nice, but a TOTAL fuck-up (they are very hard to fire)

Use your imagination.

Re:And now: My two cents...

[NormalVisual]

Demand 5 weeks pay in lieu of severance (1 week per year). If you don't get it, sue

If the original poster is in the U.S., that will probably get him/her nowhere unless severance pay is detailed somewhere in the contract, if there is one. Most states regard employment as an "at will" situation, and if a given entitlement isn't in the employment agreement, for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.

Re:And now: My two cents...

[cnoocy]

I knew that Wil Wheaton was a Slashdot reader. I must admit I'm surprised to see that Jason Mewes is. Welcome to Slashdot, Jay!

Re:And now: My two cents...

[nick_davison]

>>The combined smell of poo and hurl should cause a chain reaction around the boadroom as the entire staff voids their stomachs and bowels in a cataclysmic emetic eruption of Biblical proportions. While everyone's flailing around in a growing lake of filth, you slip out the side window.

>Remind me to never piss you off.

Nah. Just don't piss off Chunk from The Goonies. I knew it sounded familiar:

But the worst thing I ever done -- I mixed a pot of fake puke at home and then I went to this movie theater, hid the puke in my jacket, climbed up to the balcony and then, t-t-then, I made a noise like this: hua-hua-hua-huaaaaaaa -- and then I dumped it over the side, all over the people in the audience. And then, this was horrible, all the people started getting sick and throwing up all over each other. I never felt so bad in my entire life.

MP3 Version

Re:And now: My two cents...

[dgatwood]

Honestly, unless the boss is the CEO, it's probably worth escalating this up the chain to your HR department. The boss in question clearly should not be employed, and if you play your cards right, you might end up getting the job... assuming you would even want it....

He may be in violation of the law

[davidwr]

I have no good advice for your general situation, other than this:

1) offer to go quietly immediately, and offer to stay for a reasonable period of time - 2 weeks after your initial notice is reasonable - and let him make the choice.
2) if he lets you go today, don't expect to get paid for time not worked.

If he actually withholds your final paycheck, take it up with human resources, his supervisor, or if necessary, someone higher up. What he is doing is most likely illegal. If necessary, remind him of his legal obligations and that the next step will be the court system, civil AND if applicable, criminal court. Don't threaten legal action unless all else fails, that will burn all bridges.

Easy Answer

[DanielMarkham]

I've been there, done that.

Had a couple bosses (especially, for some reason, small development and start-up companies) that lost it.

The easy answer is: do the right thing. You did the right thing by giving notice, you did the right thing by hanging in there. Go in to work each day and be the best you can. Help hand off the codebase. Give the best training you can to the others.

The more you do the right thing and your boss acts like an idiot, the better you are doing. Do the right thing and let the rest slide.

In both of my cases, the old boss felt sorry for acting the way he did. (But this took several months) People get upset when they don't know what to do. Sometimes they act very poorly. My advice is to be a bigger person than that.

WorkplaceFairness.org

[kitzilla]

but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.

WorkplaceFairness has a few tips along these lines.

Sounds as if you've given sufficient notice. Unless you're violating some employment covenant, your employer has no legal basis by which to hold your final check and is probably attempting to intimidate you in an unlawful way.

Be professional, write or say nothing negative, ask for any employer complaint in writing, work out your notice with as much enthusiasm as you can muster, and seek any remedy after the fact.

This is why we have unions, folks. Or why we *had* unions. The workplace does NOT regulate itself.

Good luck, and enjoy your new job.

Use Google!

[CypherXero]

You could have risked it and put in your name, his name, and the company's name. Then, wait about a week or so, and then tell him to search Google for either of those 3 terms, and watch his face in horror as the number one result is a bunch of geeks are talking about kicking him in the nuts.

Can't withhold pay

[artemis67]

Also keep in mind that your boss can't withhold pay that you have worked for. If he threatens you again, just tell him that you'll file a complaint with your state's labor comission, and have them open an investigation. Legally, he can't not pay you for time that you've worked. He can't even pay you at a reduced rate, unless he informed you of it before you worked the hours.

Hopefully, you only gave him two weeks. I found out the hard way, never give more than two weeks; you might think you're doing the boss a favor, but it just makes things harder on yourself to be known as the "short timer" for a month (or more).

You should definitely try to finish out your two weeks. Chances are, your boss will cool down sometime after you leave, and you'll want him to be a good reference when you embark on future job searches. At the very least, you don't want him to be a negative reference.

Your boss may be a total ass, but you should try to honor your word. Your most valuable asset in the business world is your reputation.

Re:Can't withhold pay

[sfriedrich]

Honor your committment but expect nothing in return.

Old fart story to follow --

I was working for a -very- small company when I got hired by Apple in '86. I gave them 2 weeks notice and told them that I wanted to make sure that we had a good transition. The next morning I got a phone call from the boss and was told not to come in that day and, "oh, by the way; your last paycheck has been cancelled". Wow, I was a young father and the loss of even a single paycheck was deeply painful to my family.

I'll never forget the advice that the Apple recruiter (John Boring) gave me when I related the story to him; "Yes, you -can- take this to the labor board and you -will- win... however, you can spend your career looking forward or looking backward... it's up to you where to concentrate." I took his advice, forgot about the offense and the past and had a -GREAT- career at Apple and afterwards. I'd advise you to do the same.

Re:Can't withhold pay

[/dev/trash]

And I bet that old boss is still fucking people out of their wages.

Re:Get a Firearm

[lheal]

N O !

I'm a 2nd Amendment guy. I believe in the right to keep and bear arms, and I believe that the citizenry should be armed to the teeth and dangerous.

But it's just plain stupid to bring one to work under these circumstances. It says "disgruntled employee about to go postal", and would give the nutty boss an excuse to have you arrested. You don't want that rep at all.

I'd bring a lawyer instead, or at least have a lawyer make a phone call. Asking you to provide a replacement before you receive a final paycheck is defrauding you of your pay.

Hapenny

[fm6]

There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.

Which works if the boss is rational enough to act in his own self-interest. Doesn't like concept applies here.

You know, strictly speaking, it is his responsibility to find a replacement for your position, not yours. You should remind him of this in no uncertain terms.

And of course, he will say, "Oh silly me, you're right! Never mind!"

It's pretty obvious what's going on here: the boss is out of his depth, his own job is in jeopardy, maybe his personal life is also in the toilet, and he's blaming everyone but himself for his woes. Under those circumstances, confrontation of any kind is unlikely to help things, and could easily make things worse. What do I mean by "worse"? Maybe just a few harsh words, but this is a classic formula for workplace violence. One should step carefully.

The threat to withhold the final paycheck is, of course, illegal. The way to deal with this is to politely remind the boss of that fact. If that produces more outbursts, then you should take it to the HR department, and maybe your boss's boss, both of whom will be quite concerned at the legal exposure such a threat creates. Or, if the boss is also the proprietor, you should talk to the state employment commission.

And you should probably depart as soon as your statutory two weeks is up. There are many good reasons to remain longer: you want to act professionally, you don't want to leave your co-workers in the lurch, etc. But they just don't apply when you're being abused and threatened in this way.

Act in a professional manner

[the eric conspiracy]

Seriously - don't sink to his level, make threats or do anything unethical - he will just use it against you.

Keep records of anything they accuse you of and what you are doing your last few weeks.

If, after you leave they try to withhold your last paycheck just file a complaint with your state deptartment of employment. Every state I am familiar with has strict laws about requiring that you get paid for time worked. The state I work in has a law stating that the only reason an employer can withhold wages is if there is a court order in place.

Later, if you feel that your former employer is trying to do something to damage your reputation, talk to a lawyer. This sort of slander is viewed very dimly in the courts.

Re:Withholding pay

[Apotsy]

Exactly. You wouldn't believe how many stories along these lines I've heard from people. The victims are usually young, naive, and working retail. In nearly every case, the person does nothing because they don't know their rights. They just bitch about it to their friends.

In most cases, merely threatening to call the labor board will scare an employer into complying with the law. If it doesn't, then proceed with the actual call to the labor board, and for good measure call an employment attorney as well. And don't whine that you can't afford one -- you can always find one who will consult with you for FREE. Just call the local bar association for a referral. (And no, a free consultation does not mean the lawyer is shady/crappy; it's a standard part of their services.)

It's a LOT harder for employers to screw you over when you know your rights AND take steps to see that they are enforced.

Re:Withholding Vacation is Not Illegal

[the eric conspiracy]

Withholding payment for accrued vacation time is not illegal, and is a common tactic for ensuring "good behavior" during the last days of employment.

Many states require the company to pay for accrued vacation time. If so, it is indeed illegal.

You need an attorney

[jim_deane]

1. "Lawyer up". Seriously, go consult with an attorney, because...

2. Withholding or threatening to withhold pay or benefits as you describe is very, very, very illegal, and so are...

3. Libel and slander (printed and spoken, respectively).

All based on my limited understanding of US law, but if you are not in the US there are still likely protections against what you have described.

Get. Attorney. Now.

Jim

Notice

[ShieldW0lf]

I find it hard to believe that this guy would treat someone who's leaving an IT job this way. I have found more than one manager who preferred to pay me for the two weeks and hustle me out the door when I give them notice than so they can secure their networks against me, which is something that I consider a wise move.

Not to say that you should sully yourself and your reputation with backdoor hacks and retribution, but it's a dumb manager that leaves you in a position to do so then provides incentive to do so by acting like a jerk. Your boss needs to be hit with a clue stick... there aren't too many ppl that can fuck up a business like an IT guy with inside knowledge and a chip on his shoulder.

Advice

[OverflowingBitBucket]

Here's my advice. Take what you will. I've been somewhere similar once. I didn't follow this advice entirely, but if I had to do it again, I would. Hopefully you can learn from my mistakes.

Do the time from your notice there. You aren't obligated to find a replacement, but tell your boss that you're happy to spend your remaining time looking for one and training one up if you find one. Be polite, even though the prick doesn't deserve it. Do not let yourself be intimidated. Let him dig his grave in front of the other employees. Politely disagree or ask for clarification when you are attacked or discredited. Do not work one extra minute beyond what notice you've given, do not work one extra minute overtime. You owe your boss nothing due to those threats. But make sure that any potential future employer can look back and see that you delivered 100% on what you owed, and that the employer was the one who fell short. You need to be 100% in the right because your employer will trash you when a future employer calls up to confirm your employment there. You need to show you did nothing wrong.

Expect nothing in return. You probably won't get the pay. Move to your next job and concentrate on that. If your pay doesn't show, consult a lawyer, and write a polite but firm letter stating exactly what you are owed, with a due date, sent by registered mail. Take your time, discuss things in writing only. If he calls by phone (likely) and offers anything, ask for confirmation in writing (unless it is money, in which case ask when it will arrive). Don't let yourself be intimidated. If they won't play ball, after you're settled and have a steady income, then weigh up legal action. Do not fight this without a stable income behind you, it will be one of the most miserable experiences in your life. I've been there. Get a position of strength whilst attempting to be "reasonable", and if you feel it important to crush the prick afterwards, do so. Don't go light on them because they "might" give you a bad reference. Think about what they are going to do if you let them off. If they'll trash you anyway, you've got nothing to lose, assuming you can show you've been reasonable through the whole process.

I could go on, but you've probably got the gist.

Incorrect in more ways than one

[C_Kode]

Many people say you should take legal action if they withhold your paycheck. First off, it will cost a hell of alot more to *take legal action* than a single paychecks value. (unless you are paid something excessivly stupid amount, then you would be the moron for leaving!) All you would have to do is contact the local labor board and inform them of the situiation. Your employer would be contacted by one of their reps, and the would comply in a hurry as no employer wants the labor board breathing down their neck.

It would cost you any attorney fees either.

Living well is the best revenge

[hey!]

Reminds me of a young guy I once knew who worked for an outfit I did some consulting for. He'd worked there a couple of years while finishing up and defending his Phd dissertation, but was doign work well below is capabilities. After successfully defending his thesis, he landed an excellent job at a prestigious intitution.

His boss at first was OK, then one day suddenly turned on him in the kind manner you describe, trying to humiliate him and doing everything short if cutting the buttons off of his blazer. The young guy was very cool about it, a total class act, but everyone else around was appalled. I asked the young guy about it later, and he shrugged, and said it didn't bother him too much because he was going places in this field, and the boss wasn't doing himself any favors in his future employment prospects.

Of course, this kid was thinking in terms of years, but it turned out his prediction came true a lot faster. Some of the people who were remaining behind began quietly looking into the boss's Phd, and discovered it was fraudulent, and spread the information around where it would do the most damage.

The lesson is that sometimes you really do create a kind of karmic force that affect your destiny. Take no action to harm your boss or your current company in any way; it's pointless since they can' harm you in this situation -- only you can harm yourself. Act with dignity and professionalism and everybody who can see this situation will remember all the more clearly for the contrast with your boss's actions.

OT: fingers

[dubl-u]

What shocks me is that people always forget the old addage that when there's one finger point at something, there are four fingers pointing back at the person pointing.

Try as I might, I can get at most three fingers pointing back at me. Am I doing it wrong?

That final paycheck

[TheMCP]

I believe every state has a law about issuing paychecks within a certain amount of time after the end of the pay period. The employee who receives a threat from the boss that a paycheck will be withheld should immediately contact their state's attorney general's office to find out what their rights are and see if the office can offer any advice about how to handle the threats. (Do they think he should ignore the threat and see what happens? Or tell him on the spot that it's illegal? Or walk out the door immediately?)

In Massachusetts, if I remember correctly the employer may not withhold a paycheck for more than a week after the paycheck for the pay period would normally be issued, and in the case of a termination or layoff, they're required to issue a paycheck, expenses, and pay for accrued vacation all on the day of the termination or layoff. I'm not sure what the penalties are. The attorney general's office can refer you to appropriate legal resources, or may even choose to get directly involved with getting you paid.

I had one incident of an employer trying to not pay me. The AG's office said that yes, they'd take legal action on my behalf if necessary, but first they wanted me to simply demand the money in their name. That got me my money, much to my surprise.