How to Leave a Job on Good Terms?

My two cents... by TripMaster+Monkey · 2005-05-08 08:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

My boss has always been a bit nuts...

Been there...I sympathize.

...while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients.

There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.

I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.

You know, strictly speaking, it is his responsibility to find a replacement for your position, not yours. You should remind him of this in no uncertain terms.

Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"

Just remember that giving a company notice before you leave is not a requirement...it is a courtesy you are extending as part of a positive professional relationship. Frankly, I'd ask him for a letter of recommendation up front, and if he refuses, or threatens to give you a less than optimal review, you simply do not owe him the courtesy of notice.

In short, don't devalue yourself, and don't let him devalue you, either.

--
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~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

Re:My two cents... by TheWanderingHermit · 2005-05-08 09:10 · Score: 5, Informative

...while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients.

There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.

Speaking from a point of view of someone who spent years working with people in therapy, it sounds like this person has some issues that go deeper than the anger and frustration most people deal with. While I would normally advocate standing up for yourself (which isn't necessarily a confrontation), that fact that you start by saying he's always been a little nuts makes me suspect any confrontation will blow up.

In simple terms, it sounds like he's in denial over what's going on and blames you. In his mind, he probably already sees you as disloyal and even out to get him. This is not a reasonable view, but everything you say fits with that possibility. If that is so, anything you do will be viewed as an attack, and only add fuel to his fire of hate. So if you confront him, there's a chance he could blow up, start calling you names, or just walking away, then burning you in some other way.

Only you can decide what is and is not important to you. At this point, he's made it clear he considers it okay to withhold your paycheck. I can't tell if it's a bluff, or if he's serious (from what little we have here), but be aware that he is likely holding it hostage. Normally a boss thinks he has control becasue he can fire someone or stop paying them. With only a short time left, he feels he can no longer control you, so he's using that paycheck as his way to make sure you stay in line.

While it sounds lame, you might be best to try to difuse the situations with humor -- just not at his expense. Or, if he trashes you in front of a crowd of employees or clients, and you feel a need to stick up for yourself, you can always say something like, "He's been treating me that way ever since I turned in my notice,' and try to make it into a joke. He won't take it well, though.
Re:My two cents... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-05-08 09:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'd also add that it might be a good idea to send letters/emails of appreciation to your co-workers and the clients of your company. Don't say anything negative AT ALL in the letter, focus only on the positives you believe you have experienced in the company. Go over your reasons for making the job change(don't mention money, focus on the positive opportunities you see yourself as having at the new company) and express your heartfelt gratitude for having gotten to work with and gotten to know such excellent people. Make sure everyone you have more than a "hi/bye" interaction with gets a copy. Including your boss.

This way, no matter what he says, people get to hear from you your reasons and get to hear from you the positive experiences you're taking away from the position. This will foster "warm fuzzy feelings" among many who might only ever hear "his side".

Let me stress, don't be negative in that letter/email at all. It is imperative that you not be negative at all.
Re:My two cents... by TheWanderingHermit · 2005-05-08 09:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

OK...let me be a little clearer here. I never advocated that the writer challenge the manager's sanity. In fact, personal attacks like this will most certainly only make the situation immeasurably worse.

Maybe not, but it all depends on how the boss perceives it. For example, soon after I left teaching in treatment programs, I worked as a property manager for someone in serious need of therapy. He was an alcoholic in denial, as well as gay and in denial (he had relationships, but went to absurd lengths to hide them -- it would have been comical if this person wasn't so sick). One time a property owner called up, asking me a ton of questions about a problem with one of his properties we managed. It turned out later that the problem was caused because my boss (the drunk) had not done his job. I didn't know that at the time, so when the boss (who was in the room listening) didn't hear me take full blame for everything immediately, once I hung up, he started yelling at me, saying I screwed up and was blaming him -- and that I was out to get him and his job.

If you want to analyze it, he knew he screwed up, but couldn't accept it, so since he "knew" it was his fault, even without me knowing it -- or accusing, or anything, in his eyes, since I did not just roll over and take it, he assumed I knew it was him, and was trying to blame him. To you and I, it doesn't make sense, but to him, it did.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I am pointing out that there is enough to make me (a former pro in dealing with people who need treatment) suspect there is a problem with this boss. What you and I see as a challenge, the boss very likely will see as an attack. It doesn't have to be an attack, it doesn't have to look like one -- all it takes to set a person like this off is for him, in his twisted mind, to see it as an attack. I've seen many people in treatment (or in need of treatment) who have lied through their teeth, and all it took was one person even vaguely suggesting one of their lies was not 100% correct to set that person off.

Yes, he's making false accusations, but in the post, the writer made it clear the clients and employees knew the boss was nuts. If he can gracefully difuse the situation, and continue to act with integrity, none of them will have any question who is professional and trustworthy. Don't act under the assumption that because someone is calling names, those names reflect at all on the "callee". More than anything, and this seems especially true in this case, they make the boss look unreasonable and unprofessional, and as long as the person being insulted acts with dignity and integrity, he will look better (especially in the long run) by not attacking.

It's like if a kid attacks you -- if you deck him, you look terrible. If you maintain your dignity and do as little as possible to fend him off, you look much better. That's because we all know the kid is at a disadvantage, and here it seems quite obvious the boss is like a kid -- at least emotionally.

Normally I would agree with you, but this boss seems unstable, and with such a person, as I said (and it bears repeating), something that, to you and I, seems not only reasonable but also appropriate could be perceived as an attack by him -- especially if it comes anywhere near threatening his twisted perception of reality.
Re:My two cents... by TheWanderingHermit · 2005-05-08 09:51 · Score: 5, Informative

This is only one of MANY posts about the last paycheck. Some go so far as to say sue him. Some say talk to HR, but the company might be so small the boss might own it.

Since the boss is emotionally unstable (I mentioned that earlier in this thread), it might be unwise to mention anything about the check ahead of time. Go by to pick it up at the regular time, as you always would, as if nothing were wrong. If it's not there, ask him about it. If he tries holding it back, then it is time to take action. You're best off being understated. Just shrug and say, "Okay, I'll take it up with the Labor Board, under section xxx" (if you can cite a section, that might help).

If there is an HR department, go there first, if not, or after HR, then go to the state (or other appropriate authority) and file a complaint. Make sure you have a copy of the letter or form. It might help to show it to the boss, and that may be all you need, but if he is volitile, just stay away and wait until the authorities handle it.

If he "officially" tells you ahead of time he's withholding it (instead of just threatening), ask him why and see if you can get it in writing. In either case, document it clearly, write up a letter to complain to either HR or the labor board, and, on the last day, bring it up before you leave. Again, be understated, but know that you WILL get the check, it's just a question of when and whether he gives it to you or has to deal with HR or the authorities. Don't be cocky, just sure. If necessary, tell him what you've been told by HR or the labor board. Don't be a know it all, but say just enough to let him know you have resources.

Now, on the other hand, if at any time in this process he starts to act unstable, GET OUT. Your goal should be to get the check, not to confront him, piss him off, or prove to him you're right. If you can keep your ego out of this, you'll do great. If you let your ego lead you, you'll end up in a blow out with him, and it'll make it even harder to get the check.
Re:My two cents... by TripMaster+Monkey · 2005-05-08 09:59 · Score: 4, Informative

I see where you're coming from....I was making the assumption that this manager, while superfically unreasonable, is fundamentally capable of rational thought, while you're reminding us that that assumption may not be valid.

This is indeed a troubling scenario...in most situations, the best course would be to smile and nod, and walk on eggshells around him. However, in this situation, this potentially unbalanced person has the ability to cause serious damage to the writer's professional reputation and career. Another poster on this topic made the statement that the only thing a technical profesional really possesses is their reputation...a point with which I agree wholeheartedly.

To borrow your analogy of a kid attacking you, as long as he is unarmed, you may be able to safely ignore him, but if he starts attacking with a club, knife, or gun (in short, if his attacks now have the potential to cause real damage), you are within your rights to protect your own well-being.

Clearly, if the manager is indeed unbalanced, the writer has a very fine line to walk for the next couple weeks. in this situation, the only constructive advice I can offer is to make every attempt to appear as the rational and reasonable party...while still taking the necessary steps to defend one's professional reputation.

--
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~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Re:My two cents... by Nogami_Saeko · 2005-05-08 10:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

Here's my $0.02.

Unless that final paycheque is big, BIG bucks - walk out the door and don't come back.

Really, is the stress and bullshit worth the money? If it's gonna be a month or so, put your expenses on a credit card for a month (keep 'em reasonable), and just pay it off when you get the new job.

In the meantime, you owe yourself some R&R by the sound of it, so take a month (or whatever) off and enjoy life :P

N.

--
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
Re:My two cents... by saltydogdesign · 2005-05-08 10:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

Speaking from a point of view of someone who spent years working with people in therapy, it sounds like this person has some issues that go deeper than the anger and frustration most people deal with.

It's called "boss-itis." I think all bosses are required to suffer from metal ailments.

I used to work at a magazine. Our editor in chief would call the entire staff into a conference room and harangue us for up to four hours because he found a typo in an article (before it was printed). One typo could cause him to say that we were "worthless," "useless," "unprofessional," "shit," and many other such fine terms.

Meanwhile, our work would not be getting finished, leaving us more pressed for time and more likely to make mistakes.

The guy was a lunatic, and it extended beyond work. When he first met my wife, I introduced her and said she was an opera singer (she is). The first words out of his mouth were, "I don't really like music with women's voices." What an ass.

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// This is not a sig.
Re:My two cents... by Mr.+Underbridge · 2005-05-08 11:27 · Score: 2, Informative

Only you can decide what is and is not important to you. At this point, he's made it clear he considers it okay to withhold your paycheck. I can't tell if it's a bluff, or if he's serious (from what little we have here), but be aware that he is likely holding it hostage. Normally a boss thinks he has control becasue he can fire someone or stop paying them. With only a short time left, he feels he can no longer control you, so he's using that paycheck as his way to make sure you stay in line.

Whatever he thinks, it's not OK to withhold the check for work performed. If he's slandering an employee and ultimately follows through on the threat to withhold pay, lawyer up and contact the company's legal department, and see how fast they capitulate.
Re:My two cents... by TheWanderingHermit · 2005-05-08 11:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

I was making the assumption that this manager, while superfically unreasonable, is fundamentally capable of rational thought, while you're reminding us that that assumption may not be valid.

That's about it. Thanks -- you summarized it MUCH better than I did.

It's also important to remember a person like this may show rational thought in many areas, but still be emotionally unbalanced in others.

Yes, I agree about a reputation being important, and this boss can hurt it, but from what we have, it seems most people around him are aware that the boss has issues. I would also think that people who worked with him for a while would easily know the score. Yes, the manager does have a weapon, but if everyone is aware he is toons (no, that was never a term we used technically!), it is less effective.

FWIW, in the job I mentioned, the firm had been around for over 20 years. At one time it had a good reputation, but over the past 10 years they had earned a reputation in their area (which was a poor area of houses as old as pre-civil war and was undergoing gentrification) as being cheap, cheating the tenent, and even abusing their authority. My boss, and his boss (the owner) were largely responsible for that. There were only the three of us in the company, and about 6 months after I started, the owner died. About 5 months later, with my boss running the company and the executrice (sp?) of the will still not having sold the company, I found out I would not get a paycheck that week -- legal problems, the estate being in debt, etc. While they admitted owning me, they did not have the money to pay. I asked how much they were selling the company for, and got on the phone. I seriously considered talking to my family, getting the backing, buying the company, and firing my boss.

This is appropos because my boss was largely responsible for the bad reputation of the company and many people in the area had dealt with him and specifically cursed him in public (and quite often!). I made a lot of calls and found out that in the 11 months I had been there, I had developed quite a reputation. I never bragged or badmouthed my company or boss, but the whole area basically had the attitude of, "Don't deal with the company, but if you have to, deal with him -- he'll treat you as fair as you can, unless his boss won't let him."

In less than a year, while I was working for a company with a crappy reputation, everyone in the area basically knew I would stick to my word and they could trust me, while nobody trusted my boss (who, at almost 50, was known to run out of the front office and literally hide in a closet when certain tenents or property owners came in to handle business).

So, while I'm bias, and speaking of a unique situation, would I would think most people will know the score and separate the boss's anger from the employee's responsibility. They've already had a lot of time to see what's going on. And, if he maintains his dignity, often it is possible to make sure you act properly as the other person gets more and more irrational, then, without saying anything negative, you've held up, and the other person has ruined their rep by getting angry because he wouldn't play their game.
Re:My two cents... by pediddle · 2005-05-08 11:32 · Score: 2, Informative

If that paycheck is big bucks, I would recommend you do walk away and never come back.

If he withholds your paycheck, he's in deep shit. In Washington state, and I imagine other places, having your paycheck withheld automatically entitles you to double the amount, plus punitive damages.

He simply has no right to threaten such an act. If I were you, I'd say, "I dare you...". In any case, investigate your rights in this matter. You might be in a position to burn some more bridges yet come out with a lot of dough in your pockets.

(IANAL.)
Re:My two cents... by TheWanderingHermit · 2005-05-08 11:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

Who cares if the boss blows up or not?

The employee does.

1) The boss can hold back the check until he's legally forced to pay, which could take weeks or months.
2) This boss, from what we've seen, shows many signs of being unstable. Violence is even a possibility.
3) The manager can swear out a warrant for any number of reasons. They may be false, but by the time it's straightened out, it might be after a night or two in jail. (And you can't always sue for false arrest.)
4) We dont' know how big a company is, so there may be no HR department or anyone with authority over this person, so he can easily lose records or time slips.
5) Sometimes a new job is contigent on the new job checking, either after acceptance of the job, or after leaving the last one, on performance at the old job.
6) While an offer has been made, it is possible it could be retracted if they hear he didn't bother to work through the notice he gave.
7) There are any of a number of other ways a boss who has lost his temper can make life miserable.

You never win by making someone angry. All it means is there is just one more person out there who wants to see you hurt. What is the point in having that?
Re:My two cents... by TheWanderingHermit · 2005-05-08 11:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

Is that assuming the company is big enough to have a legal department? Or that the boss isn't the company owner? (Or the owner's brother-in-law?)

You're right, it's not okay to withhold. But people often do things that aren't okay. It's also best not to use other "force" until the boss has actually "officially" said he'll withhold the check, or does. Then there's many things that can be done -- and the last thing I'd do is contact a lawyer (and that's from someone with a good number of lawyer friends and clients).
Re:My two cents... by SeventyBang · 2005-05-08 12:12 · Score: 2, Interesting

I agree completely - and will add more:

What would you do if you had a girlfriend you were trying to break up with who started doing this stuff [to you]? This is separation anxiety[1]. It's being done to manipulate you. If you start feeling wishy-washy or give any indication of it (including telling anyone else there, you're going to encourage it because he'll know it's working.

[1] toddlers have the same problem when Mommy, whom Timmy has relied upon being there all of the time, is stepping out for the evening.

Talk to your co-workers about everything after you've left over drinks some night. After you'e had a week or two to jump into your new job and your old office has settled down a bit. And if you are part of a herd departure (en masse), you can form a support group between those of you who have managed to get out to another job and supporting those who are still caught in the tar pit. Eventually, you can routinely have a "survivors' meeting" and keep an eye on what's going on - how many ads they've run and how long they've stayed open, etc.

If he's going to trash you in front of everyone, it's like the old philosopher whose students come in and say, "Teacher! You won't believe the things they are saying about you on the streets!" "What are you going to do?" "Nothing. I live such that no one will believe it."

Ever hear the phrase, "Wrestle with a pig and win-or-lose, you get dirty." ?

The other thing you're doing is showing everyone else they can leave on their own as well. If you buckle under, they're going to feel as though they can't leave, either. Be a good example for everyone else. (unless you hate their guts)

All but two or three states (sorry, I can't tell you which they are) have employment at will laws. This means they can walk in and can you sans notice and you can do the same to them. The issues of bias & discrimination then come in when you have to figure out if it was because of something they shouldn't have used.

Counter-offers.
These are worthless. You've made a commitment to someone else for a particular amount of money, etc. Backing down on that only shames you. And when your current employer finds you can be bought, you know what they think about you:

A man walked up to a girl and asked her, "Would you sleep with me for $1M?"
"Yes!" she said.
"Would you sleep with me for $25?"
"What kind of girl do you think I am?"
"We've already established that. Now we're arguing price."

Now. If you're ever in the driver's seat with your current employer and they make you a deal you can't resist, what's going to happen to you when they don't need you anny more?

Oh, one other thing: exit interviews. Depending upon the circumstances, they can serve different purposes. If they've taken your feedback and general ideas over your time there and put it into effect, then an exit interview is a time to open up and provide feedback. If, however, you're getting out of there because you are getting out while you can before the pr%ck you are working for goes postal, an exit interview will largely be used to let you blow off steam and let you vent, hoping you won't air dirty laundry in the future, as that goes two ways: how they function as a company (business-wise) and how they work internally (employee-wise) - both can hurt a business' reputation in the public eye...horribly. If they are suddenly so interested in your feedback as an ex-employee, why weren't they routinely soliciting it as an employee - particularly once you start[ed] showing yourself to be a source of good ideas?

All-in-all, it's a small, small world. You never know when something good or bad is going to come back and benefit or haunt you. It's as if the movie cameras are always running. I've had placement services contact me asking if I was the one who {did something good because someone passed good words} and they've contacted others because I've told them about {someone I know who has done well with...}
Re:My two cents... by TheWanderingHermit · 2005-05-08 12:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

That's a few interesting stories about your boss. What shocks me is that people always forget the old addage that when there's one finger point at something, there are four fingers pointing back at the person pointing. For example, the four hour meetings say nothing about you and your peers, but they say a LOT about your boss. The same with his statement to your wife -- it doesn't reflect on her at all, but it says volumes about him.

The man you describe is very insecure. He probably wakes up every morning feeling he isn't nearly as good as he wishes he were. He's probably perpetually scared that today is the day everyone will find out how scared he is and that he isn't what he wants everyone to believe is. Just think -- there's no need to wish for revenge on such a person. For him, waking up every morning and facing a full day of living with himself is a hell worse than any revenge I could ever wish on anyone.
Re:My two cents... by guibaby · 2005-05-08 12:32 · Score: 2, Informative

If you live in texas you are in reasonably good shape on the final paycheck thing.

http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/texas_payday_ law_basics.html

--
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels.
Re:My two cents... by Otter · 2005-05-08 12:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'd also add that it might be a good idea to send letters/emails of appreciation to your co-workers and the clients of your company.
You bring up an important point I haven't seen others mention -- not burning bridges isn't just about you and your boss, it's about everyone else involved, any of whom might be in a position to help or hurt you down the road.

--
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Re:My two cents... by SilverspurG · 2005-05-08 12:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

When I left my last employer I gave no notice and informed my manager that I was taking my two weeks of vacation as I walked out the door.

The HR department called me to say they would only honor my vacation request if I came in for an exit interview. I told them there was no way I was setting foot in their building again after the way I'd been treated. I put up with it for three years and, one day, made the decision that I'd had enough. It was like leaving a bad marriage with no money, no clothes, no where to live, and barely a suitcase under the arm.

They wrote me off, denied my unemployment claim, and withheld the paycheck for the two weeks' vacation.

Call a lawyer? I'd been so harassed and was so out of sorts at the time that no lawyer even wanted to talk to me. Truthfully, I wouldn't have wanted to talk to me at that time either.

So where's all this hoidy-toidy legal rights junk now? I'm still paying for the mess that was created by a manager harassing an employee near to death.

--
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
Re:My two cents... by Cpt_Kirks · 2005-05-08 12:55 · Score: 4, Funny

If you live in texas you are in reasonably good shape on the final paycheck thing.

Hell, in Texas you can probably shoot his ass for pulling shit like that.
Re:My two cents... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2005-05-08 14:47 · Score: 2, Informative

You say that such a thing might lead to an industrial tribunal. In practice, however, how impartial are such tribunals?

In the UK, generally very good. They are composed of three people, whose combined experience is usually extensive and includes legal proceedings, working on behalf of employers and working on behalf of employees.

Tribunals are generally held to be no-nonsense, firm but fair deals. If you try to get damages because you did something stupid and got yourself fired, they'll usually throw it out. If your employer really was acting improperly, you'll generally get fair compensation. Even organisations like Citizens' Advice speak well of them.

What is the cost barrier for representation?

You can take representation if you want, but often it's not necessary. A simple statement of your grievance may suffice.

What are the various social stigmas which may follow an employee before, during, and after the proceedings of such a tribunal?

For the kind of case you'd take to a tribual, relatively few. For employers, however, having a tribunal (which is public) find against you is a pretty damning indictment, and if it gets a lot of press locally it's a good way to run out of good staff to hire real quick.

OK, your turn: where does all this cynicism come from? We have a system, it works pretty well both in theory and more importantly in practice, and it's immune to some of the gross abuses that get mentioned here pretty frequently under employment-at-will. What's your problem with it?

--
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Re:My two cents... by mdfst13 · 2005-05-08 14:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

"They wrote me off, denied my unemployment claim, and withheld the paycheck for the two weeks' vacation."

Technically, they may have been legally in the right in your case. To take a vacation, you have to come back at the end. I.e. you were required to come in for the exit interview.

This guy's situation is different. He's actively working. It is not legal to withhold a pay check for work actually done. It is legal to fire someone (and not pay them) for not complying with reasonable work demands (e.g. an exit interview).

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad work experience. However, an exit interview is not an unreasonable request. Heck, I'd think of it as standard procedure.
Re:My two cents... by ramblin+billy · 2005-05-08 16:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Personally, I'd have loved to give them that interview - and I would have been the most helpful, respectful, level headed example of a model employee those HR people had ever seen. I would have explained with great reluctance that my valuable contribution to their company was ceasing as a last resort, that I had been driven to it, and that it probably wouldn't be long till they were sitting down with the next victim. Most HR people live in a fantasy world, fed BS by both management and employees, occasionally they get it right. You might have got paid AND planted the seed that eventually spelled doom for the manager. Well, OK, you'd have got paid.

billy - hey - it could happen
Re:My two cents... by Adam9 · 2005-05-08 17:25 · Score: 3, Funny

Hmm.. new phrase?

In the State of Texas, you get SHOT for withholding paychecks!
Re:My two cents... by Kopretinka · 2005-05-09 00:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

Really, is the stress and bullshit worth the money? If it's gonna be a month or so, put your expenses on a credit card for a month (keep 'em reasonable), and just pay it off when you get the new job.
Ugh, I'm off-topic, but is it just me or should living at least one month without pay be covered by a buffer of savings from the 6 or 7 years he said he had a not-so-bad job? I know people who don't have such guffer and I franky have no idea what they are doing or in fact how they are doing it.

--
Yesterday was the time to do it right. Are we having a REVOLUTION yet?
Re:My two cents... by mdmarkus · 2005-05-09 01:55 · Score: 2, Funny

Wait a minute. I think i just witnessed two people disagreeing reasonably and at the same time, bringing some light to the subject. That's not the slashdot i've come to know and loathe...

Hello Mcfly, Suck it up! by lecithin · 2005-05-08 08:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"

Easy. You don't have any losses. You have a job waiting for you.

Stick with it until you said you would. ALWAYS keep to your word especially when leaving an employer. If they want you gone now, they will walk you out of the building.

It is your bosses problem, not yours. This sounds like a me vs you thing. If it is so bad, talk to your HR. The odds are that if everybody knows your boss is nuts, they do to. If they don't know, they want to know.

Do you believe that you are responsible for finding your replacement? I don't understand how they could keep your paycheck if YOU don't find a replacement.

If your boss thinks that he cannot replace you, put some bait in front of him. Ask if they can match an offer or do something to change your work environment. Even if you have no interest in staying, it buys time and allows you to leave with a smile on your face when YOU say no.

Back to the original though. DO NOT QUIT EARLY! You gave your word and it is a small world. It would suck to have this bite you in the ass. In a few weeks it will be over and you will laugh at it.

Oh yea...

You insensitive clod! You have a JOB! You have an OFFER and a JOB! You have a 'soon to be X Boss' that you can &uck with? Quit bitching! :)

Get over it! Screw with the Boss and have fun. You are leaving, he has no control over you. You have an offer, you don't need his reference. Get prepared for your new career and forget the past.

I am curious what the "different industry" is. Did you take up Hindu? :)

--
It could be worse, it could be Monday.

Re:Hello Mcfly, Suck it up! by nolife · 2005-05-08 09:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

If your boss thinks that he cannot replace you, put some bait in front of him. Ask if they can match an offer or do something to change your work environment.

That is a slippery slope. In fact there are many articles and stories floating around jobs sites/newspapers about trying the counter offer route. Here is the short version as I understand it:
Asking for a raise and throwing down a competing offer are two different things all together. If you like where you are but think you deserve more money, you ask for a raise or better conditions, you are asking based on a chance that better things may come.
If you think the conditions will not change, you just do not like where you are, where you are going, or what you are doing then you look somewhere else. More money will not change any of those factors and normally only acts as a short term fix if the real reason you do not like there stays the same.
The "bad blood" and attitude from each side after a counter offer is not comforting either. The authors bosss reaction already shows some of that.

Each boss and worker relationship is different but the general guidelines are that it does not normally work out well in the long run. I'm sure there are many exceptions as well.

--
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
Re:Hello Mcfly, Suck it up! by Beatlebum · 2005-05-08 09:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

I disagree. Working out 2 weeks notice is a courtesy, not a requirement. Why should this guy stick around to be abused by his boss in front of colleagues? If I was him I would clear out my desk late in the evening and call HR early the next morning telling them I had decided to leave early because of my boss's hostility.

When someone is behaving irrationally the best thing to do is get out. His boss is already talking crap about the guy, so what's the difference? If everyone regards him as a nut then why would they listen to his stories?
Re:Hello Mcfly, Suck it up! by sevebal · 2005-05-08 10:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

The craziest situation I have ever been in was when I was laid off from a small company due to horrible financial mis-management. I filed for unemployment (which ends up raising the employers premium) and next thing the guy was offering me a short-term contract to train my replacement which he hadn't started looking for yet. When I told him to screw off he contacted the unemployment people and told them I had refused a job offer which in turn, stopped my checks. I got a lawyer and went to a hearing which I won. He then rewords the contract to get rid of one of the reasons it was invalid, sends it to me, I refuse and again contacts the employment commission which stops my check. Another hearing, and another victory for me. Soon after I had an offer.

Advice by DarkHelmet · 2005-05-08 08:56 · Score: 4, Informative

Obviously, threatening to withhold your final paycheck for something like this is against the law. Report him to the labor board if he does actually withhold it.

Otherwise, just be polite, but firm. If he burns bridges, it's his choice. You did your best.

--
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i

Re:Advice by ebuck · 2005-05-08 09:57 · Score: 2, Informative

The best reply to a threat of "Holding your paycheck", is this phrase. Remember it well:

(Laugh in a good natured way and then say) "That's fine, I would love to own this company in settlement."

It's a rediculous statement, but one that indicates that you do know your rights and won't fold. But even more importantly, it lets him know that his threat failed to deliver the one item that it was really intended to delever: It failed to inspire fear.

Been there before, and I know it sucks. But don't say anything even remotely bad about your boss. Even if everyone agrees with you and praises your insight, you're still out of there in a week or so. Let him dig his own grave. Any boss that bad mouths thier employees won't be looked on kindly by his peers. He won't get fired for it, but you can gurantee that he will be passed over for promotion until people forget his behavior.

easy by grumpygrodyguy · 2005-05-08 08:58 · Score: 2, Funny

If it were me, I'd give him a good 'ol fashioned swift kick in the nuts. Then say thanks for the job insecurity, expoitation, long hours, minimal pay raise, and general harrasement.

Then I'd give him another good kick in the ribs to grow on.

--
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky

Solicitor's advice , not slashdot's! by norfolkboy · 2005-05-08 08:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

This sounds legally dubious.

You need the advice of a solictor. Especially if he is withholding pay, and damaging your reputation.

Re:Solicitor's advice , not slashdot's! by illumin8 · 2005-05-08 10:56 · Score: 2, Funny

You need the advice of a solictor. Especially if he is withholding pay, and damaging your reputation.

Is Solicitor what you UK chaps call a Lawyer? If so, I just found a whole new use for my No Soliciting sign!

--
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon

We all understand... by MoonFacedAssassin · 2005-05-08 08:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

The main question you have to ask yourself is "Do I need this job experience on my resume?" If you are compelled to answer yes, then your best bet is to leave as cordially as possible, but explain to any other interviewer, if necessary, that you left to pursue an advancement of your career and your supervisor resented it. I say "if necessary" because there's no point conveying that if the interviewer doesn't contact them for reference. Granted, it's tough to find out whether or not they will be contacting them.

Most sane and mature employers understand that as long as you give them notice of the termination of employment that the burden of employee replacement is on the employer, not you. The fact that your current employer is doing this proves how immature he is. Withholding the last paycheck may be something stipulated in documents you signed at the beginning of employment so you may want to look those over.

I have had previous employers that I have had issues with personally, but tried my best not to burn the bridge myself. If they had burned the bridge, I would definitely talk to their boss about this. If they didn't have a boss above them then I would gladly have had choice words for them. It's all a judgement call, but if you need this on your resume, definitely don't burn the bridge yourself.

--
I am a meat popsicle.

Re:We all understand... by dubl-u · 2005-05-08 15:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

If you are compelled to answer yes, then your best bet is to leave as cordially as possible, but explain to any other interviewer, if necessary, that you left to pursue an advancement of your career and your supervisor resented it.

That's a good way to put it. And it brings up another reason to keep your cool during the final weeks: getting a reference from a coworker instead of your boss. When I check references, I'm nearly as glad to take a reference from a peer of the manager as the manager herself.

Get a lawyer by Trailer+Trash · 2005-05-08 09:00 · Score: 2

And have the lawyer write a simple letter explaining that you'll be paid through the end of your employment regardless of finding a replacement. Remember, too, to take the high road, don't stoop to this guy's level. It'll make him look all the more like the ass that he is.

--
Do you have ESP?

Re:Get a lawyer by (H)elix1 · 2005-05-08 09:07 · Score: 2

And have the lawyer write a simple letter explaining that you'll be paid through the end of your employment regardless of finding a replacement.

I'd use the lawyer only after he held up my check. Make the assumption he won't do something so stupid now, keep docs, and *if* he does something so dumb then pull out the hired guns.

--
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU

Don't publically call your boss 'nuts' by tonsofpcs · 2005-05-08 09:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

DO NOT write anything like the following in a slashdot article: My boss has always been a bit nuts.

--
Video Production Support

Re:Don't publically call your boss 'nuts' by Fyz · 2005-05-08 09:09 · Score: 5, Funny

Well, I did submit as an anonymous reader...

Whoops.
Re:Don't publically call your boss 'nuts' by fredrikj · 2005-05-08 09:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

Why would he?

And now: My two cents... by Saeed+al-Sahaf · 2005-05-08 09:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

You know, strictly speaking, it is his responsibility to find a replacement for your position, not yours. You should remind him of this in no uncertain terms.

There's no "stricly speaking" about it. You have no responsibility on this point.

If everyone knows your current boss is a nut case, just try to live with it until you leave. If you can't stand it, just walk out. You already have a follow-on job, and you don't need this guy, if he's going to bad mouth you anyway, cut your loss and don't show up tomorrow.

--
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck

Re:And now: My two cents... by TripMaster+Monkey · 2005-05-08 09:27 · Score: 2, Informative

There's no "stricly speaking" about it. You have no responsibility on this point.

Yes...I know...I was actually being a bit facetious in my original post...thanks for the clarification.

--
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Re:And now: My two cents... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-05-08 09:53 · Score: 5, Funny

> If you can't stand it, just walk out.

Fuck that.

Next time he gives you some lip, you make your move. Prepare your revenge by eating nothing but Taco Bell, bran muffins, and cheap whiskey for the next three days. Then you wait until you're in the next board meeting and someone asks if there are any comments. Jump up on the table and say "Yeah! I got a comment!" Then you whip your cock out and smack him in the face with it. He'll freeze out of shock, and while he's standing there bugeyed 'cause he's just been cockslapped you whirl around and go all Tubgirl on him! With any luck he'll slip in the poo and fall down, and finding himself face down in a steaming puddle of whiskey-poo he'll most likely hurl like a 90-pound freshman cheerleader at her first frat kegger. The combined smell of poo and hurl should cause a chain reaction around the boadroom as the entire staff voids their stomachs and bowels in a cataclysmic emetic eruption of Biblical proportions. While everyone's flailing around in a growing lake of filth, you slip out the side window.

As the coup de grace, you run to his house and tell his wife he's been busted for child pornography. She'll run screaming to her mother, which will leave you unfettered in his home. Get his daughter *and* the dog pregnant, burn down the house, and create a huge upside-down pentagram on his front lawn in weed killer.

"Just walk out?"

Feh.

That's not the kind of talk that got us through Guadalcanal, you know?
Re:And now: My two cents... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-05-08 10:02 · Score: 5, Funny

The parent post was childish, offensive, and disgusting.

Mod parent UP, baby!!! Yeah!!!
Re:And now: My two cents... by serutan · 2005-05-08 10:11 · Score: 4, Informative

Seriously dude, your boss can feel any way he wants about you leaving, but telling you you have to find your own replacement crosses the line. You have to take him aside right away and tell him very directly and matter of factly that you aren't going to find him another employee, and he's not going to withhold any of your pay. Employee turnover is a normal part of doing business and he just has to deal with it. Staying 6 or 7 years at a job is way longer than average, and (I assume) you've done good work for him during those years. There's no reason you can't part on good terms, and no reason for him to make threats. Most people respond to straightforward statements of facts. Try to be friendly. It sounds like you genuinely want to be. But if he acts like a jerk and actually does try not to pay you, you have to be prepared to get a lawyer to write a demand letter. [If it came to that, I'd demand the pay plus the cost of the lawyer writing the letter, with a clear statement that the next step will be a lawsuit including punitive damages and legal costs.]

Your boss isn't Mr. Krabs. This is the real world and he has to live in it. I'm sure that unless he's truly crazy he really doesn't want to deal with a lot of legal crap just because you hurt his feelings or whatever.
Re:And now: My two cents... by youknowmewell · 2005-05-08 10:42 · Score: 4, Funny

Sounds like you have some experience with this.
Re:And now: My two cents... by 3vi1 · 2005-05-08 10:45 · Score: 4, Funny

Remind me to never piss you off.
Re:And now: My two cents... by tomhudson · 2005-05-08 12:24 · Score: 5, Insightful
Since he's acting so irresponsibly, there's no reason to stay:
1. Document it (use one of those mini-mp3 players with the built-in mic)
2. Quit, and let him know why you're quiting, and that as far as yuo're concerned, his actions are harrassment and constructive dismissal
3. Demand 5 weeks pay in lieu of severance (1 week per year). If you don't get it, sue
And before everyone starts whining about how you can't record a conversation without the other persons' consent - YOU'RE NOT ON THE PHONE!
Re:And now: My two cents... by Given+M.+Sur · 2005-05-08 12:35 · Score: 2, Funny

Excellent instructions on how not to burn a bridge. I'm sure the submiter will appreciate them.

--
nil
Re:And now: My two cents... by Cpt_Kirks · 2005-05-08 12:50 · Score: 5, Funny

No, much better would be to FIND him a replacement. Surely you know someone who's even a bigger pyscho asshole as your boss. Hire him.

With a little luck, they will kill each other.

Other choices:

- Really Smelly Homeless Guy
- Seriously, Seriously Flaming Gay Guy (best if boss is a homophobe)
- One of those guys who is SUPER nice, but a TOTAL fuck-up (they are very hard to fire)

Use your imagination.
Re:And now: My two cents... by tomhudson · 2005-05-08 13:30 · Score: 3, Funny

Once someone threatens to illegally withhold your pay, the time is LONG gone for worrying about burning bridges - they've been burned, the adjoinging fields have been plowed under, and the earth is beings salted.
So you can either "bend over and take it like a man", or stand up for your rights.
Re:And now: My two cents... by NormalVisual · 2005-05-08 14:25 · Score: 4, Informative

Demand 5 weeks pay in lieu of severance (1 week per year). If you don't get it, sue

If the original poster is in the U.S., that will probably get him/her nowhere unless severance pay is detailed somewhere in the contract, if there is one. Most states regard employment as an "at will" situation, and if a given entitlement isn't in the employment agreement, for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.

--
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:And now: My two cents... by cnoocy · 2005-05-08 15:47 · Score: 5, Funny

I knew that Wil Wheaton was a Slashdot reader. I must admit I'm surprised to see that Jason Mewes is. Welcome to Slashdot, Jay!

--
This sig is not the Zahir. Lucky for you.
Re:And now: My two cents... by nick_davison · 2005-05-08 15:59 · Score: 4, Funny

>>The combined smell of poo and hurl should cause a chain reaction around the boadroom as the entire staff voids their stomachs and bowels in a cataclysmic emetic eruption of Biblical proportions. While everyone's flailing around in a growing lake of filth, you slip out the side window.

>Remind me to never piss you off.

Nah. Just don't piss off Chunk from The Goonies. I knew it sounded familiar:

But the worst thing I ever done -- I mixed a pot of fake puke at home and then I went to this movie theater, hid the puke in my jacket, climbed up to the balcony and then, t-t-then, I made a noise like this: hua-hua-hua-huaaaaaaa -- and then I dumped it over the side, all over the people in the audience. And then, this was horrible, all the people started getting sick and throwing up all over each other. I never felt so bad in my entire life.

MP3 Version
Re:And now: My two cents... by Rorgg · 2005-05-08 16:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

>

Heh, I know one of these who needs a job. Guy came in as a consultant on a huge db conversion project we were insanely understaffed on, so as a highly paid contractor, they gave him a part of it and left him alone.

Naturally his part got delayed and whatnot, and as it became clear toward the end of the main body of the project was nearing an end, he was hired on by management in a senior admin position, despite some vague warnings from those in the trenches.

Once his part of it got finished, well behind the rest, all the rank-and-file admins realized he was a complete incompetent, who would just drone on and on based on bad premises to anyone who would listen. To anyone who didn't know better (read: management) he was a brilliant admin with biting analysis. To everyone with a clue, he was a clueless idiot doing pointless busiwork to hide it.

Of course, management loved him, and he stayed with us for nearly THREE YEARS before finally there were enough documented cases of him destroying stuff for management to give in and restrict his rights -- whereupon he used what access he did still have to let himself back in under someone else's ID. At that point, caught red-handed, and finally confessing after denying it, he FINALLY got canned because there was simply no other option.

So, yeah, hire him. Your boss deserves it.
Re:And now: My two cents... by TheMCP · 2005-05-08 16:43 · Score: 2, Interesting

In regard to cutting your losses and leaving... if you already have the new job lined up and the current job started mistreating you after you gave your notice, just call the new job and say "I know I told you I wanted to give two weeks notice at my old position, but it turns out that won't be necessary. Would you like me sooner?"

If they're pros, they'll understand, really. And if they do say they'd like you to start immediately, just pack your personal belongings at your old office, then inform the old manager that since he's clearly "concerned" about having you around this will be your last day, and does he have any further questions before you depart? He'll be angry. He may tell you so. If he asks, it's okay to tell him honestly that you've felt mistreated since you gave your notice and have no desire to remain further to experience more of it. (After all, he asked.) He may be angry about that too, but that's not your problem.

Then as long as he's reasonably sane, answer any questions he may have about your job (he may want passwords for stuff etc), and spend the rest of the day politely providing final information to aid their transition to your replacement.

And if he yells at all, just say good bye, walk out of his office, go get your box of personal stuff, and leave. You have no further need of him and no obligation to stay if he's going to act hostile and threatening. Make sure to say good-bye to at least three people on your way out, including people who don't have your (now ex-)boss as their boss, so they can verify the time and date of your departure in case it becomes an issue regarding pay.
Re:And now: My two cents... by dgatwood · 2005-05-08 16:59 · Score: 4, Interesting

Honestly, unless the boss is the CEO, it's probably worth escalating this up the chain to your HR department. The boss in question clearly should not be employed, and if you play your cards right, you might end up getting the job... assuming you would even want it....

--
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Re:And now: My two cents... by Farmer+Tim · 2005-05-08 20:54 · Score: 3, Funny

It's an anonymous post. How will you know who not to piss off?

Hmm, I think life just got a little more dangerous...

--
Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
Re:And now: My two cents... by tomhudson · 2005-05-09 00:52 · Score: 2, Informative

You're allowed to record yurself - no consent needed (its' implied you consent to recording yourself).
Check your cell phone - it can probably record. It can also pick up and broadcast background sounds - including the voices of other people. So are you going to claim that you need the consent of everyone in the room to talk on a cell phone?

The law, in practice, is very easy - the guy is making an illegal threat (to withhold pay). Yo record it. You are NOT going to be busted for that.
Re:And now: My two cents... by glesga_kiss · 2005-05-09 01:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

You know what I'd do? Smile politely and be pleasant. If someone is trying to wind you up, there is no better way to counter it than to make them think it's getting nowhere. Be really nice. Laugh loudly when they are in earshot. Walk with a spring in your step.
The worst that can happen is that your boss won't be able to take it and will explode. Just avoid situations where it is just the two of you alone; always have witnesses. Work off the notice, be thankful it's over and move on with your life.

After all, it's just a job. Companies nowadays layoff employees to improve profitiablity, unlike days of old when it was a last resort. They don't give you any consessions, so why return the non-favour?

He may be in violation of the law by davidwr · 2005-05-08 09:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

I have no good advice for your general situation, other than this:

1) offer to go quietly immediately, and offer to stay for a reasonable period of time - 2 weeks after your initial notice is reasonable - and let him make the choice.
2) if he lets you go today, don't expect to get paid for time not worked.

If he actually withholds your final paycheck, take it up with human resources, his supervisor, or if necessary, someone higher up. What he is doing is most likely illegal. If necessary, remind him of his legal obligations and that the next step will be the court system, civil AND if applicable, criminal court. Don't threaten legal action unless all else fails, that will burn all bridges.

--
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.

Re:He may be in violation of the law by Brooklynoid · 2005-05-08 09:19 · Score: 2

1) offer to go quietly immediately, and offer to stay for a reasonable period of time - 2 weeks after your initial notice is reasonable - and let him make the choice.
2) if he lets you go today, don't expect to get paid for time not worked

No. State when your last day of employment will be (typically 2-4 weeks from date of notice) and stick to it. If they ask you to leave prior to that date and don't pay you through that date, then they're terminating you, and you're entitled to collect unemployment insurance (if there's a long enough lag before your new job starts), and to collect any perks (severance package, etc.) normally provided by your company upon termination.

Difficult to leave on perfect terms, always by xtal · 2005-05-08 09:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's the same as breaking up with a signifigant other - when it comes right down to the marbles, you're leaving because there's something you don't like, and by collary, you think that you can find something better. In this case, you already have something better. The person on the other side of the equation is going to have a tough time with that.

It's worse if you're leaving a business on shakey ground - because it's the ultimate vote of non-confidence. I think it's worse in tech, because a lot of the time, the people ARE the company.

Don't worry about what your boss thinks. Do what you said you would, always, but at the end of the day the decision has already been made. Concentrate on making a good impression with your new employers.

--
..don't panic

Easy Answer by DanielMarkham · 2005-05-08 09:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

I've been there, done that.

Had a couple bosses (especially, for some reason, small development and start-up companies) that lost it.

The easy answer is: do the right thing. You did the right thing by giving notice, you did the right thing by hanging in there. Go in to work each day and be the best you can. Help hand off the codebase. Give the best training you can to the others.

The more you do the right thing and your boss acts like an idiot, the better you are doing. Do the right thing and let the rest slide.

In both of my cases, the old boss felt sorry for acting the way he did. (But this took several months) People get upset when they don't know what to do. Sometimes they act very poorly. My advice is to be a bigger person than that.

Re:Easy Answer by kabdib · 2005-05-08 09:49 · Score: 2, Interesting

I once left a company that tried to reduce my final check by "negative sick hours" or something like that. Legally they were allowed to do this. However...

I politely pointed out that I had gotten sick as a direct result of working 80+ hour weeks for them, that they had gotten a good deal out of it, and that reducing my check was unacceptable. I was firm, but very polite.

I waited in the lobby for 30 minutes and they came back with a check for the full amount.

If they hadn't . . . well, I had no real plans. Probably would have told all the employees that I knew "socially" there, and then just left it alone.

[Earlier the previous day, the CEO of the company pulled me off to a lunch meeting where he started bawling and tried to get me to stay. A good place to be out of; their "technology" could have been replaced by 1,000 lines of Perl]

--
Any sufficiently advanced technology is insufficiently documented.
Re:Easy Answer by dorko72 · 2005-05-08 10:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

I have to agree with this post.

A few years back, i was in a very similar situation. I had found a great new job and my current employer did not take my resignation and 2 week notice very positively. A week before my resignation we had our office burglarised and a ton of equipment stolen. My boss accused me of being the "ring leader" and told me he would withhold my check until a criminal investigation was held. I was so furious that i decided to not fulfill my two weeks i had promised. On my way out i had a shouting match with him and ended up telling him that the p0rn he had on his computer and was actively downloading using the company's network was not the smartest thing to do. He immedialtely got quiet, ran back and locked himself in his office and began deleting all the files.

Years have passed since this incident. I dont think i did anything wrong, but i feel i could have been a better professional if i had not gotten down to his level and starting screaming all over the office.

I suggest you always do your very best. You will eventually be rewarded and will feel better about yourself for doing it.

DEE-fense, DEE-fense! by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · 2005-05-08 09:07 · Score: 2, Informative

Don't underestimate what crazy people might do. Be as clean as the driven snow. Make sure you haven't taken anything out of the office. Go over anything you've signed and nail down written documentation that you've complied with it.

You can turn a conversation into a paper trail by writing a letter along the lines "This is to summarize our conversation of $DATE. I am dismayed that you would think $ACCUSATION, which as I explained is of course incorrect. If I have misunderstood your position please let me know".

It might be worth the money to consult with an employment-law attorney and ask "here's what I'm doing, I'm dealing with irrational people, what precautions do you suggest?".

WorkplaceFairness.org by kitzilla · 2005-05-08 09:08 · Score: 4, Informative

but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.

WorkplaceFairness has a few tips along these lines.

Sounds as if you've given sufficient notice. Unless you're violating some employment covenant, your employer has no legal basis by which to hold your final check and is probably attempting to intimidate you in an unlawful way.

Be professional, write or say nothing negative, ask for any employer complaint in writing, work out your notice with as much enthusiasm as you can muster, and seek any remedy after the fact.

This is why we have unions, folks. Or why we *had* unions. The workplace does NOT regulate itself.

Good luck, and enjoy your new job.

--
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.

Re:WorkplaceFairness.org by Bill+Dog · 2005-05-08 10:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Talented individuals rely on their marketability. The mediocre masses need unions.

--
Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
Re:WorkplaceFairness.org by jwiegley · 2005-05-08 11:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

The workplace doesn't need to regulate itself. Nor do we need unions or government to regulate it for us.
All we have to do is start choosing to regulate our own environment. You don't like it? Fine, quit; find another environment, create your own enivronment. You'll probably be more successfull in either case.

A girl I know keeps working in bad jobs for unfair bosses doing project management for the construction trade. She provides exceptional customer satisfaction and competency. She just switched jobs again; what she should have done was started her own contracting company and buried the competition.

Again, I'm now stupified as to why we persist in maintaining bad relationships. Are we that desperate to obtain our validation and self worth from external sources? (And yes, I used to in a variety of relationship types. At least I fixed the career.)

Regulate yourself; don't count on anybody else to do it for you because no one else (Except maybe your mother) has *your* best interests as their agenda; nor do they accurately know what you need. (And I would argue that your monther doesn't either.)

--
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

Re:Try finding a replacement by OrangeSpyderMan · 2005-05-08 09:08 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm afraid I think this is bad advice. As previously mentioned, it's not his problem to fill his position when he leaves, and grovelling because you can't find someone will just serve to prove him right. By all means he should offer to help interviewing candidates if he's still around, but his boss probably won't want him to, as its a little too much like admitting he's not as bad as the boss appears to be trying to make out he is. At the end of the day - as many other posters have said, the professional way is to hold up your end of the deal - work the notice, and work it as well as you've worked the rest of the time, but don't lie down and drop your pants the minute the "crazy" boss decides he wants more than you and employment law think is reasonable.

--
Try NetBSD... safe,straightforward,useful.

Re:Try finding a replacement by TripMaster+Monkey · 2005-05-08 09:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

Um...no. Respectfully, I must disagree.

It is not the writer's responsibility to find a replacement. That resposibility lies squarely with the manager.

If the manager still doesn't like it, tough. He's contractually obligated to pay that final paycheck.

--
____

~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

Re:I think he needs it on the resume... by pete6677 · 2005-05-08 09:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't think it will be a big deal. He obviously got this new job without a reference from the psycho manager, so he will have the new manager (hopefully not a psycho) as reference for his next job. He can still list the old place, and if someone wants a reference contact in the future, give them someone other than the psycho manager, who hopefully would have been fired by that point anyway. In summary, you don't necessarily need a reference from your manager to be able to list a job on your resume. Some companies don't even allow managers to give references, so HR departments are used to encountering situations where they can't get a reference from someone's current or previous manager. Just use someone else.

Be responsible for yourself... by rice_burners_suck · 2005-05-08 09:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

...he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients...

If you're being honest with yourself and the /. community as a whole, and if you didn't do anything to deserve the flamewar he is waging against you, then I have this to say about your soon-to-be-former boss: He's an idiot. My advice: Simply be respectful. Don't say anything bad about the boss or the job. If anyone asks (even in some sort of exit interview), tell them it was a good job and everything was fine, but you're leaving to make the next step in your career plans. Period. Believe me, in the future, when the topic comes up, people will know who was the wacky one and who was wise.

At our company, we don't have the best possible wages and benefits. What we have is good, but there are certainly other companies out there that offer something better. Every so often, employees find a "better" job and leave. I've heard what the "big boss" here says when someone gives him notice. He usually bids them farewell, invites them to come back and visit sometime, and generally gives them some advice. For example, if an employee is known around here for something detrimental, the boss will usually remind him (not to rub it in, but rather to help him out) to pay particular attention to that aspect of his work, so he will start the new job on a fresh page.

In 20 years, we only had one incident. A secretary, who was a complete wacko, got fired. She took customer lists and God only knows what other information with her, and she actually called all the customers and trashed us. She made threats, she did all kinds of stuff... Our boss, being the wise and learned man that he is, told us all not to worry about it. The ending of the story: Customers called and asked what was going on. We explained that we had fired this secretary. They all said things to the effect that, "You're better off without her." People are not stupid, and they understand who's on the up and up...

Use Google! by CypherXero · 2005-05-08 09:18 · Score: 5, Funny

You could have risked it and put in your name, his name, and the company's name. Then, wait about a week or so, and then tell him to search Google for either of those 3 terms, and watch his face in horror as the number one result is a bunch of geeks are talking about kicking him in the nuts.

And Now, my two cents... by FyRE666 · 2005-05-08 09:19 · Score: 2, Funny

Talk to a couple of your more violent friends. Organise a meeting between them and your boss after he leaves work. If he's in hospital for 2 weeks, he'll cease to be your problems.

Buy him some grapes ;-)

--
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.

Find a Replacement? No, No, NO! by lax-goalie · 2005-05-08 09:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

First, it's not his responsibility.

Second, and more importantly, there are a ton of issues that go into a hiring decision, many of which don't have a thing to do with the specifics of a job. An applicant may have skills, but may not have the right temperament, outlook, or might not be a good fit for the company's culture. (Or a zillion other reasons...)

I've hired, and I've (thankfully rarely) fired. Bringing on the wrong person isn't good for anyone, and from a company's perspective, is tremendously expensive in time and money.

Finding your own replacement for a job is just a bad idea all around.

Re:Use the legal solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2005-05-08 09:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

Actually, in this situation, it really could make things better for him. I suspect that if you document the harrassment (including the libel/slander he has apparently been committing) and bring it to the attention of your company's legal department, your boss will immediately be read the riot act and told to STFU.

If your current company doesn't have a legal department, they probably aren't well set up to defend themselves against a lawsuit. Remember, if you win (and it sounds like you probably would, but IANAL) you can recover not only damages but also penalties and legal costs.

Again, IANAL. But documenting everything would be a good idea at this point, if you are not already doing it.

Can't withhold pay by artemis67 · 2005-05-08 09:26 · Score: 4, Informative

Also keep in mind that your boss can't withhold pay that you have worked for. If he threatens you again, just tell him that you'll file a complaint with your state's labor comission, and have them open an investigation. Legally, he can't not pay you for time that you've worked. He can't even pay you at a reduced rate, unless he informed you of it before you worked the hours.

Hopefully, you only gave him two weeks. I found out the hard way, never give more than two weeks; you might think you're doing the boss a favor, but it just makes things harder on yourself to be known as the "short timer" for a month (or more).

You should definitely try to finish out your two weeks. Chances are, your boss will cool down sometime after you leave, and you'll want him to be a good reference when you embark on future job searches. At the very least, you don't want him to be a negative reference.

Your boss may be a total ass, but you should try to honor your word. Your most valuable asset in the business world is your reputation.

Re:Can't withhold pay by sfriedrich · 2005-05-08 11:44 · Score: 5, Interesting

Honor your committment but expect nothing in return.

Old fart story to follow --

I was working for a -very- small company when I got hired by Apple in '86. I gave them 2 weeks notice and told them that I wanted to make sure that we had a good transition. The next morning I got a phone call from the boss and was told not to come in that day and, "oh, by the way; your last paycheck has been cancelled". Wow, I was a young father and the loss of even a single paycheck was deeply painful to my family.

I'll never forget the advice that the Apple recruiter (John Boring) gave me when I related the story to him; "Yes, you -can- take this to the labor board and you -will- win... however, you can spend your career looking forward or looking backward... it's up to you where to concentrate." I took his advice, forgot about the offense and the past and had a -GREAT- career at Apple and afterwards. I'd advise you to do the same.
Re:Can't withhold pay by /dev/trash · 2005-05-08 15:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

And I bet that old boss is still fucking people out of their wages.
Re:Can't withhold pay by Pxtl · 2005-05-08 15:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

And your old boss went on to fuck over the next dozen people who walked through the door, totally unpunished. Hooray.

So, if I break into someone's house and steal $500 from his dresser drawer, what is my punishment? Let's compare, shall we?

Management Responsibilities by cyberscout · 2005-05-08 09:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Always dangerous to respond with limited details of a situation, but here are some basics that may help:

1. Put the onus of responsibility on him (management) where it belongs. Ask him to meet all the aspects of the new job you like (i.e. pay, benefits, responsibilities/tools, commute, working from home, etc). Note: He won't meet these requests, but, it puts focus back on the things for which you are leaving rather than his charactor assasiniation. Don't give him more time as he "works" to meet your needs either. :-)

2. If you were so horrible (as it sounds like he is accusing you of) then why did he (management) keep you for 6-7 years? It begins to look pretty strange to anyone (peers or other management types) once that logic emerges

3. Continue to be professional, in spite of his lack of professionalism. Keep a journal of things said to you for potential legal action later should he follow through with his threats to withold pay. (Please tell me you did not send this message from work, which would fall outside this "professionalism" suggestion... calling a boss names in open forum that can be traced to you would be a bad thing...) :-)

Best of luck to you, sorry you are having a rough path out to bigger and better things...

CS

Re:Get a Firearm by lheal · 2005-05-08 09:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

N O !

I'm a 2nd Amendment guy. I believe in the right to keep and bear arms, and I believe that the citizenry should be armed to the teeth and dangerous.

But it's just plain stupid to bring one to work under these circumstances. It says "disgruntled employee about to go postal", and would give the nutty boss an excuse to have you arrested. You don't want that rep at all.

I'd bring a lawyer instead, or at least have a lawyer make a phone call. Asking you to provide a replacement before you receive a final paycheck is defrauding you of your pay.

--
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.

Re:Get a Firearm by TripMaster+Monkey · 2005-05-08 09:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is a great idea...oh wait...no it's not....it's the opposite of great....what's that word...oh yeah. TERRIBLE. Yeah, that's it.

Seriously, though, you really need to establish yourself firmly as the sane, sensible party here. It's unfortunate, but you really do have to go out of your way to insure that you are never percieved as irrational or unreasonable.

--
____

~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

Hapenny by fm6 · 2005-05-08 09:33 · Score: 4, Insightful

There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.

Which works if the boss is rational enough to act in his own self-interest. Doesn't like concept applies here.

You know, strictly speaking, it is his responsibility to find a replacement for your position, not yours. You should remind him of this in no uncertain terms.

And of course, he will say, "Oh silly me, you're right! Never mind!"

It's pretty obvious what's going on here: the boss is out of his depth, his own job is in jeopardy, maybe his personal life is also in the toilet, and he's blaming everyone but himself for his woes. Under those circumstances, confrontation of any kind is unlikely to help things, and could easily make things worse. What do I mean by "worse"? Maybe just a few harsh words, but this is a classic formula for workplace violence. One should step carefully.

The threat to withhold the final paycheck is, of course, illegal. The way to deal with this is to politely remind the boss of that fact. If that produces more outbursts, then you should take it to the HR department, and maybe your boss's boss, both of whom will be quite concerned at the legal exposure such a threat creates. Or, if the boss is also the proprietor, you should talk to the state employment commission.

And you should probably depart as soon as your statutory two weeks is up. There are many good reasons to remain longer: you want to act professionally, you don't want to leave your co-workers in the lurch, etc. But they just don't apply when you're being abused and threatened in this way.

Act in a professional manner by the+eric+conspiracy · 2005-05-08 09:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

Seriously - don't sink to his level, make threats or do anything unethical - he will just use it against you.

Keep records of anything they accuse you of and what you are doing your last few weeks.

If, after you leave they try to withhold your last paycheck just file a complaint with your state deptartment of employment. Every state I am familiar with has strict laws about requiring that you get paid for time worked. The state I work in has a law stating that the only reason an employer can withhold wages is if there is a court order in place.

Later, if you feel that your former employer is trying to do something to damage your reputation, talk to a lawyer. This sort of slander is viewed very dimly in the courts.

Labor law protects the employee by daff2k · 2005-05-08 09:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

There's something called "labor law" (hope that's the correct term in English) which is there to protect employees from threats (and actions) exactly like the ones your boss seems to be making. At least in Europe, but I am very sure there's an equivalent in the US, too.

All you need to do is to look into your contract and be sure to have complied with the terms of notice (again, hopefully the correct term in English). If you did then you are entitled to your final paychecks, dismissal pay (correct term?), etc.

Your boss has no rights whatsoever to withhold any of your paychecks or to talk badly about you or your work if you quit your job in accordance with your contract. Of course there's nothing to keep him from opening his mouth and being "a bit nuts", but he may not do anything which would be to your disadvantage.

If you are in doubt you might want to contact a lawyer or look into the code yourself. You do not need to take shit like that from him (or any other supervisor).

--
And which parallel universe did you crawl out of?

How much does it mean to you? by Cooty · 2005-05-08 09:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

Whether or not it is important to leave a job on good terms is a personal issue for you to answer, not a question for the community. It might make a difference in your future career but it is much more a question of personality, and whether you would regret the bad blood.

If you decide you do want to leave on good terms, best approach IMO is to talk to the nut directly, don't go behind his back or get anyone else to intervene on your behalf. Try to be the hurt pal, let him know how you want to be remembered as a good worker, that you were there a long time, that it bothers you he could think you were causing trouble, and so on. It might not work right away, or at all, but if so you'll know for sure there was nothing more you could do. You may have every right to be angry (we can't know for sure, but it seems you do) but acting angry does no good if what you want to accomplish is to calm down the paranoid.

And if it doesn't work, *then* calmly make sure you've covered all your bases: dot your i's and cross your t's, keep proof of everything, and don't say anything stupid.

In my own experience I've felt sometimes it was worth going the extra mile to make someone happy, and sometimes it wasn't.

Re:Withholding pay by Apotsy · 2005-05-08 09:38 · Score: 5, Interesting

Exactly. You wouldn't believe how many stories along these lines I've heard from people. The victims are usually young, naive, and working retail. In nearly every case, the person does nothing because they don't know their rights. They just bitch about it to their friends.

In most cases, merely threatening to call the labor board will scare an employer into complying with the law. If it doesn't, then proceed with the actual call to the labor board, and for good measure call an employment attorney as well. And don't whine that you can't afford one -- you can always find one who will consult with you for FREE. Just call the local bar association for a referral. (And no, a free consultation does not mean the lawyer is shady/crappy; it's a standard part of their services.)

It's a LOT harder for employers to screw you over when you know your rights AND take steps to see that they are enforced.

--
Free Hans!

I do not think it means what you think it means by Safety+Cap · 2005-05-08 09:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

A contract cannot override the law.

--
Yeah, right.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means by untaken_name · 2005-05-09 01:22 · Score: 2, Funny

A contract cannot override the law.

Oh, man. Wait till Satan hears about this one! He's gonna be PISSED.

--
http://xkcd.com/386/

no for another reason by Anonymous Coward · 2005-05-08 09:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

If you find a replacement you'll be responsible for that replacement going forward into the future. You need to make a clean break. Your boss needs to find someone else to form a relationship with, what's he going to do if anything goes wrong with the new person, track you down and get you to solve that problem too? No way, if this new person were to have problems are you going to find yourself in court? What if there's a leak of company info, you want to be on the suspect list because your 'plant' is still working there? Forget it.

Re:Withholding Vacation is Not Illegal by the+eric+conspiracy · 2005-05-08 09:54 · Score: 4, Informative

Withholding payment for accrued vacation time is not illegal, and is a common tactic for ensuring "good behavior" during the last days of employment.

Many states require the company to pay for accrued vacation time. If so, it is indeed illegal.

Been there (almost) by ashridah · 2005-05-08 10:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

I had the unfortunate position of being forced to call in the Victorian state level (Australia, btw) employee relations resolution mob when I was leaving a company a few years ago.

My employer had withheld 4 weeks of pay, even though I was there AND WORKING for the entire month(!) of notice I gave (a month sounds crazy, never signing a contract like that again). They tried to claim they couldn't afford to pay me. i knew that was crap, although they had a history of not paying debtors, they did have assests they could sell, to people who were actually willing to buy them.

Fortunately, in my case, using the state-based resolution system means I didn't have to pay anyone anything to get my money. After my ex-employer stuffed them around for 6 months, they finally drove over, had a chat, quietly offered to write them up for fines, and I got the cheque in the mail.

It was a nice christmas present when it came. :)

Now, all this said, particularly in the initial article poster's situation, it won't hurt him to stick it out. That gives him a much stronger position if he *DOES* get shafted.

Also, i'd be inclined to not worry about doing work outside the job description during that time. They can't hold you to that, particularly if you've got other duties to attend to that you DO have to do.

That said, DO NOT under any circumstances, badmouth your previous employer in any way at any time. That's just asking for trouble, and can come around and bite you in the butt really quick.

ashridah

You need an attorney by jim_deane · 2005-05-08 10:09 · Score: 4, Informative

1. "Lawyer up". Seriously, go consult with an attorney, because...

2. Withholding or threatening to withhold pay or benefits as you describe is very, very, very illegal, and so are...

3. Libel and slander (printed and spoken, respectively).

All based on my limited understanding of US law, but if you are not in the US there are still likely protections against what you have described.

Get. Attorney. Now.

Jim

Replacement Killers by AndroidCat · 2005-05-08 10:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

Won't someone think of the replacement? Just think of the bad karma you'd receive for fixing the replacement up for a term with psycho-boss! Imagine if the replacement was actually someone you knew or even a friend? Come to think of it, why can't they find at least a semi-suitable replacement in today's job market?

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

*Ahem* - you're on tape by Glonoinha · 2005-05-08 10:24 · Score: 3, Funny

Actually I have found many, many times that a camera or a tape recorder (or digital audio recorder) is a wonderful peace-making device.

Set the tape player on your desk out in the open and just leave it there. Next time someone comes in and says something totally nasty (ie, not paying the last paycheck, or bad-mouthing you, or whatever) just point to the recorder and say "that's on." It doesn't have to be on, but if you manage to time it right even better.

Amazing piece of attitude adjustment, someone knowing that whatever they say or do is on tape.

I once walked into the county court records office once and as the worker-bee walked up (I think I interrupted her game of Solitare on her computer, she didn't look happy) I popped a flash camera up and snapped off a picture. When she asked what that was all about, I explained that I was going to send her picture to the Mayor describing how helpful she had been. And she was very helpful, go figure.

--
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer

Re:I think he needs it on the resume... by ComputerSlicer23 · 2005-05-08 10:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

Past employers cannot legally give any information beyond "This person worked here from xx to xx".

You are going to have to cite a statue for that one. I'm incredibly dubious of the claim that I'd be in violation of the law to say more then "this person worked here". I'm unaware of any legal princepal of "Employee-Employer Privacy". Heard of it in the case of laywers and doctors, but never in the case of my boss. I'm fairly confident they can say if you were terminated with cause or not (that's got a legal definition, I'm unaware of all of the details).

As a general rule, most employers will not say any more then that out of fear of legal retaliation if you fail to get the job. There is precedent for suing former employers due to bad references. Employees have one such cases. I'm unaware of the details, but I see that it is making things harder for interviewers to get enough information to get such an assessment. Hence as a general rule, there's a bit of a wink, wink, nudge, nudge going on during some reference calls to employers who want to say bad things, but don't want to face the legal repercussions.

I know that it's in our hand book that if I am called as a reference for an employee who worked at my company, I can be fired for discussing past employees. However, that's because I'm creating a legal liability for the company and have no formal HR training to know what the laws and repercussions of what say.

As a general rule, always say: "I didn't give that person permission to use me as a reference". Anyone who asks who you would not be a good reference for inform them that shouldn't be using you as a reference. Thus what you are saying is honest and true. Anyone you want to say good things about give them permission. Then say only really nice things about them.

Kirby

Notice by ShieldW0lf · 2005-05-08 10:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

I find it hard to believe that this guy would treat someone who's leaving an IT job this way. I have found more than one manager who preferred to pay me for the two weeks and hustle me out the door when I give them notice than so they can secure their networks against me, which is something that I consider a wise move.

Not to say that you should sully yourself and your reputation with backdoor hacks and retribution, but it's a dumb manager that leaves you in a position to do so then provides incentive to do so by acting like a jerk. Your boss needs to be hit with a clue stick... there aren't too many ppl that can fuck up a business like an IT guy with inside knowledge and a chip on his shoulder.

--
-1 Uncomfortable Truth

Re:Notice by alienw · 2005-05-08 11:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yeah, like you won't be the first suspect in any subsequent investigation. You could get several years in jail if you fuck up their network. Don't do it.
Re:Notice by Facekhan · 2005-05-08 17:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

I called the BSA on a job after they refused to pay my last check. Not sure what happened but considering one of my last tasks had been an internal software audit I had more than enough evidence to satisfy the BSA guys when they got back to me about it. They basically pirated everything at that place.

The myth of the 2-week notice by pvera · 2005-05-08 11:19 · Score: 2, Informative

INAL but:

1. Your employer is *not* entitled to advance notice of your departure (unless this is spelled out in a contract).
2. You are *not* entitled to advance notice of your firing (unless this would mean the employer is in violation of a labor law).

That's it, just two exceptions. If your contract does not specify a notice period, and a penalty for not doing so, you are clean. If your state laws don't force them to, your employers can wait until the very last second to tell you that you are fired or laid off.

The 2-week notice is a common courtesy, less than two weeks is too drastic and will hint at a less than friendly departure. More than two weeks will make the whole thing akward.

It is not your responsibility to find your replacement before you leave. The only thing you really owe them is a resignation letter so they can CYA. Give them thanks for the X years of great employment and for the camaraderie or whatever.

We all know it is all a lie, but you are trying to leave in good terms and that letter will stick around for a while. Next time somebody calls HR to verify your employment, you'll get lucky and the person that answers the call won't know you. She'll pull your file and read the letter and won't hesitate to tell them that sure, you worked X years there but moved on because of whatever. If there is no letter she'll ask around and eventually she'll make it to your boss, who may or not be bitter about it. You fill the blanks.

--
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder

Can't withhold last paycheck by imnoteddy · 2005-05-08 12:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

Simply point out to this idiot that if they withhold your last paycheck that you will go to a lawyer who is an expert on employment law in your state who will love to take on your case and totally ream the company for potentially a hundred times as much money as your last paycheck.

Unless you signed an employment agreement that requires you to find your replacement (which you probably didn't and which wouldn't stand up in court anyway) they don't have a leg to stand on.

--
No electrons were harmed creating this post, though some may have been subjected to electrical and/or magnetic fields.

Do check your state law by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · 2005-05-08 12:21 · Score: 2, Informative

Washington, for example, allows employees to collect double damages against employers who deliberately withhold wages.

Stick it out. by SatanicPuppy · 2005-05-08 12:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

Just because your now thankfully soon to be ex-boss is an unprofessional jerkoff, doesn't mean you need to sink to his level.

I got forced to resign under threats of BS lawsuits (which I couldn't afford to fight) by a guy who was pushing me out specifically because I told him, when asked, that I believed our company problems stemmed from bad marketing tactics.

Since he was in charge, and since his son was head of marketing, I pretty much figured what the outcome was going to be, even saying it as politely as I could. But he went seriously overboard, and really screwed me, when it wouldn't have cost him anything to act like a professional instead of a child.

Even so, I told him I'd enjoyed working for his company, dealt professionally with the last few of my responsibilities and cut my losses. I did this to a degree that he's been trying to hire me freelance for the last two years, even after that company went Chapter 13.

I say "trying" because I'm professional, not stupid.

--
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.

This boss just screwed himself by DSP_Geek · 2005-05-08 12:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

I was working at a smallish outfit a few years ago when someone recommended me to a VoIP startup. The position came with enough stock options to choke a horse and a nice bump in pay, so I took the gig on the condition I could finish my current project at the original company. They accepted, I did, and when I resigned from Company A the boss told me I was welcome to return any time. The guy didn't take it personally at all, so the whole thing was quite civilised.

Well, the startup did what startups tend to do, and once the paycheques stopped I phoned up my former employer. It turned out he had a great pile of pending projects which needed an experienced DSP engineer, and here comes this ghost from the past who also happens to be familiar with the code base. It took us somewhat less than a minute to reach an agreement.

If he had freaked out and pulled the above crap, I would've never called him up again even if I were so poor I had to eat cat food, but because the guy was a consummate professional we're both ahead of the game.

Francois.

Advice by OverflowingBitBucket · 2005-05-08 12:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

Here's my advice. Take what you will. I've been somewhere similar once. I didn't follow this advice entirely, but if I had to do it again, I would. Hopefully you can learn from my mistakes.

Do the time from your notice there. You aren't obligated to find a replacement, but tell your boss that you're happy to spend your remaining time looking for one and training one up if you find one. Be polite, even though the prick doesn't deserve it. Do not let yourself be intimidated. Let him dig his grave in front of the other employees. Politely disagree or ask for clarification when you are attacked or discredited. Do not work one extra minute beyond what notice you've given, do not work one extra minute overtime. You owe your boss nothing due to those threats. But make sure that any potential future employer can look back and see that you delivered 100% on what you owed, and that the employer was the one who fell short. You need to be 100% in the right because your employer will trash you when a future employer calls up to confirm your employment there. You need to show you did nothing wrong.

Expect nothing in return. You probably won't get the pay. Move to your next job and concentrate on that. If your pay doesn't show, consult a lawyer, and write a polite but firm letter stating exactly what you are owed, with a due date, sent by registered mail. Take your time, discuss things in writing only. If he calls by phone (likely) and offers anything, ask for confirmation in writing (unless it is money, in which case ask when it will arrive). Don't let yourself be intimidated. If they won't play ball, after you're settled and have a steady income, then weigh up legal action. Do not fight this without a stable income behind you, it will be one of the most miserable experiences in your life. I've been there. Get a position of strength whilst attempting to be "reasonable", and if you feel it important to crush the prick afterwards, do so. Don't go light on them because they "might" give you a bad reference. Think about what they are going to do if you let them off. If they'll trash you anyway, you've got nothing to lose, assuming you can show you've been reasonable through the whole process.

I could go on, but you've probably got the gist.

Re:Get a Firearm by Money+for+Nothin' · 2005-05-08 13:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

Another 2nd Amendment lover here. Your post is the *best* advice I've seen. I agree with every word...

Requiring the finding of a replacement, unless it's written into his contract, does seem fraudulent. A lawyer and/or small-claims court (unless the paycheck is too big) are certainly the way to go.

Packing heat will just make things far, *far* worse.

--

Is Capitalism Good for the Poor?

Re:What references? by bluGill · 2005-05-08 13:15 · Score: 3, Informative

Ahh, but if you don't work those last two weeks they can easily document that walked off the job. They can then give you a bad reference, and they will win in court if you try to sue. (at least in my area two weeks is considered normal notice) HR would prefer not, but in this case you leave them with little choice, since they do not have opportunity to do any transitioning.

In fact for most companies this is about the only way to get fired without being turned over to the police. If they want you gone they will give you the opportunity to "resign for personal reasons", at which point they don't give a bad reference (which means they give the dates you work and that you left on good terms, like any other employee) Because you resign (and if you are smart you will because if they have to fire you they will give a bad reference) you have less legal power against them. Of course if you they catch you doing something illegal they will fire you and then turn you over to the police.

Mind many HR departments will send a guard to escort you to the door when you give your two weeks. However they still pay your for those two weeks, they just call it work from home.

However you can get co-worker references. HR only controls what your boss can say. If bob worked with you and things you are a great guy, he can say that. If you resign all bob knows is one day you are gone. It is really easy to make bob think (without telling a lie) that your leaving was a hushed thing that you could not tell them about until after you were gone. He will then be a good reference. If you are fired he will find out, and hesitate to give a good reference figuring there is something he didn't know.

In short: company references mean little (though you should check them anyway because a few people will lie about jobs they never had). However personal references are still checked.

Incorrect in more ways than one by C_Kode · 2005-05-08 13:29 · Score: 4, Informative

Many people say you should take legal action if they withhold your paycheck. First off, it will cost a hell of alot more to *take legal action* than a single paychecks value. (unless you are paid something excessivly stupid amount, then you would be the moron for leaving!) All you would have to do is contact the local labor board and inform them of the situiation. Your employer would be contacted by one of their reps, and the would comply in a hurry as no employer wants the labor board breathing down their neck.

It would cost you any attorney fees either.

Living well is the best revenge by hey! · 2005-05-08 13:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

Reminds me of a young guy I once knew who worked for an outfit I did some consulting for. He'd worked there a couple of years while finishing up and defending his Phd dissertation, but was doign work well below is capabilities. After successfully defending his thesis, he landed an excellent job at a prestigious intitution.

His boss at first was OK, then one day suddenly turned on him in the kind manner you describe, trying to humiliate him and doing everything short if cutting the buttons off of his blazer. The young guy was very cool about it, a total class act, but everyone else around was appalled. I asked the young guy about it later, and he shrugged, and said it didn't bother him too much because he was going places in this field, and the boss wasn't doing himself any favors in his future employment prospects.

Of course, this kid was thinking in terms of years, but it turned out his prediction came true a lot faster. Some of the people who were remaining behind began quietly looking into the boss's Phd, and discovered it was fraudulent, and spread the information around where it would do the most damage.

The lesson is that sometimes you really do create a kind of karmic force that affect your destiny. Take no action to harm your boss or your current company in any way; it's pointless since they can' harm you in this situation -- only you can harm yourself. Act with dignity and professionalism and everybody who can see this situation will remember all the more clearly for the contrast with your boss's actions.

--
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

NO! work it out or get the police by bluGill · 2005-05-08 13:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Any situation where you cannot work until your last day and they have not told you to stay home with pay is a situation where you need police protection.

Even if your next job is lined up, work out your last days. (Or work out a deal to leave early, often they will let you leave earlier than your required time, but be willing to work it out) You only think you have the next job lined up perfect, there are too many things you don't know.

I have had jobs that seemed great for 3 months and then the funding fell through and I was on the street without a job in less than an hour. (the CEO basically said I could work next week, but he had just enough money to cover this weeks pay and no hope of enough to pay me for next week so I should file for unemployment)

I've known others who discovered that the job was great, but traffic was worse than they thought, so the new job wasn't worth it.

I've known some offers to be pulled after someone gives their two weeks. (This is a legal blurry area, they have some obligation to you at this point, but not much)

I've known people who took jobs that seemed great, only to discover it was a terrible abusive company that could hide it well.

Most people who switch jobs end up with a situation about like they expect, and they work there for a few years. However all of the above bad situations have happened, and they will happen again. If you are the unlucky person who it happens to you may have to fall back on the older job as a reference.

Remember too, your former co-workers are you best source of reference. If I was actively looking for a job today (I'm always looking of course), I do not want those I'm working with to know, so I cannot use them as a reference. All that are left is people who have left this company before, and people I worked with at the last job. So keep your references.

Re:What references? by artemis67 · 2005-05-08 14:38 · Score: 3, Informative

I worked for a VERY large drug store chain back in the late 80's... they lost a very imporatant lawsuit regarding references. Basically, this woman left on bad terms, and was having trouble finding a new job because every time the interviewer called her former store manager to verify her employment, the store manager would tell the interviewer what a terrible employee she was. She sued the drug store chain, and won big. The ruling that came down was that the employers on your resume can only verify the dates of your employment, nothing more. No comments about the type of employee you are, good or bad.

That being said, I'm sure that virtually all small business owners are ignorant of the ruling. So, it would be better in the article submitter's case to be without fault and not give his soon-to-be former employer any reason to badmouth him.

OT: fingers by dubl-u · 2005-05-08 15:32 · Score: 5, Funny

What shocks me is that people always forget the old addage that when there's one finger point at something, there are four fingers pointing back at the person pointing.

Try as I might, I can get at most three fingers pointing back at me. Am I doing it wrong?

Re:OT: fingers by TheWanderingHermit · 2005-05-08 15:36 · Score: 3, Funny

My bad.

Sheesh. Just because I used to teach Algebra, people seem to think I can count.
Re:OT: fingers by CyberKnet · 2005-05-09 02:37 · Score: 2, Funny

Try as I might, I can get at most three fingers pointing back at me. Am I doing it wrong?

Obviously you are not using both hands. And everyone knows that if you are going to do it, you need to use both hands, or the result is simply less than spectacular.

anyways.

--
Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius

That final paycheck by TheMCP · 2005-05-08 16:15 · Score: 4, Informative

I believe every state has a law about issuing paychecks within a certain amount of time after the end of the pay period. The employee who receives a threat from the boss that a paycheck will be withheld should immediately contact their state's attorney general's office to find out what their rights are and see if the office can offer any advice about how to handle the threats. (Do they think he should ignore the threat and see what happens? Or tell him on the spot that it's illegal? Or walk out the door immediately?)

In Massachusetts, if I remember correctly the employer may not withhold a paycheck for more than a week after the paycheck for the pay period would normally be issued, and in the case of a termination or layoff, they're required to issue a paycheck, expenses, and pay for accrued vacation all on the day of the termination or layoff. I'm not sure what the penalties are. The attorney general's office can refer you to appropriate legal resources, or may even choose to get directly involved with getting you paid.

I had one incident of an employer trying to not pay me. The AG's office said that yes, they'd take legal action on my behalf if necessary, but first they wanted me to simply demand the money in their name. That got me my money, much to my surprise.

Subject by Legion303 · 2005-05-08 16:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked, or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"

[Trollmode="off"]

It depends on how you want future employers to see you. Do you want to be known as the guy who stuck with a tough situation and honored his obligations, or the guy who "cut his losses" (as other people are suggesting) and ran?

Regarding working through notice by TheMCP · 2005-05-08 16:56 · Score: 2, Informative

It's quite common in the computer industry that when an employee gives their notice, the employer just lets them go, because they're considered a security risk once they're known to be planning to depart. It's not a comment on the employee at all, it's really nothing personal.

So, if you don't want to work through your notice because the employer reacts badly, you can always tell the new employer that the old one decided that having anyone around after they gave notice is a risk, and so you're available early. If they're at all professional, the new employer will have no problem with this.

Also, it happens that sometimes when an employee gives notice, the old employer doesn't assign them any new work that they might have to leave in the middle of, so you simply finish everything before your notice is up and have nothing left to do, and so they let you go. That's another perfectly reasonable excuse for not completing your given notice period, as far as the new employer should be concerned.

Or, well, if you have the money in the bank, it's already less than two weeks... you could just take a few days off unpaid.

Re:Always? by jmv · 2005-05-08 17:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm not sure it's actually illegal (though it may be) because in some way, the employee is commiting fraud. If I get hired pretending to be a lawyer and I'm not, I don't think I can expect to be paid for the time it took my employer to figure out.

--
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec

Just Burn Them by amemily · 2005-05-08 17:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

My personal experience in these matters, may not be applicable since I work in an entirely different world.

A few months ago, I was given my choice of IT positions with three diferent state agencies and a half-dozen well-paying urban school districts. At the time I was working for a rural class A school district with a boss who is the sterotypical school teacher dumped into an IT manager position - basically he couldn't manage his way out of a paperbag. His brillant idea was that I was going to stick around until the end of the school year and look for a job than. Yea right, I really wasn't going to stay, if I wasn't "importaint enough" to be paid a decent salary and to be treated with some basic respect, I wasn't "importaint enough" to stick around that long.

For that, his and some of my collegues's attitudes over the past years, and other reasons I rather not get into....after negoiating my start date with my new boss, I handed in my notice to the supt timed so that I was gone days before semester changeover when the place turns into a clusterfuck with pissy schoolteachers demanding the world.

Five months later, my ex-collegues in my old department still will not speak to me...personally, I think they got what they deserved. Just because I am female doesn't mean I'm an instant secretary, nor does it mean I'm physically unable to pick up a computer and move the damned thing....there is a fine line between being nice and being an insulting asshole.

It is nice when you can escape a workplace that causes you to live on antacids.

And karma can be a bitch sometimes....that district is on the verge of imploding on itself with their new superitendent coming onboard who is not well-liked enough by both the old-guard and younger staff members that they are looking at leaving.

Hi Steve Z if you are reading this, we all know you hang out on ./

Been in a bad situation myself and learned from it by ks5d · 2005-05-08 18:11 · Score: 2, Interesting

I can defintely sympathize with your current predicament -- my first full-time job was for a small software development company that turned out to be a real sweat shop. I got hired on because a friend of mine for years -- I'll call him Jim -- was working there and they needed someone else. I knew I'd be working for him, but we got along fine so I wasn't worried. Big mistake.

In short, I didn't know Jim except as a peer and as a manager he micromanaged and browbeat everyone, including me. I realized soon after starting that I couldn't talk to Jim and reason with him -- he just was completely closed off about it. So after a while, I spoke to the owner and explained why I couldn't work there anymore since it was what I considered to be a hostile work environment. Rather than listen to me, he called in my about-to-be-former friend and made me explain to his face why I couldn't work there. I did it, and as a result the two weeks notice I offered I wound up having to retract after Jim punched his fist through the drywall in the office.

Moral of the story? First, never mix friendship with work -- it never works out, especially if you were friends in some other context first. And second, if faced with a constantly hostile work environment, you owe it to your own sanity and self-worth to remove yourself from the situation. Remember, hostility in the office is grounds for litigation.

I don't think he can justify holding back your paycheck; if he feels differently, I imagine that a phone call from your attorney would clear that up in a hurry. As for finding a replacement for you, if he actually feels like that is your responsibility then you should get out of there before he goes further over the edge than he already is. Don't confront him directly about the paycheck if he refuses -- the cost of an hour or two of time for an attorney is worth the freedom from the hassle and the rest of that paycheck.

Just my two cents' worth -- others' mileage may vary. Best of luck with your dilemma...these things are why life is hard. Just remember to be honorable about what you do and say but don't take crushing abuse because you think you have no alternative. It's the battered wife syndrome applied to the workplace...

Animal Cruelty by turgid · 2005-05-08 21:22 · Score: 3, Funny

Hell, in Texas you can probably shoot his ass for pulling shit like that.

In the UK, if you shot someone's mule to settle a score, the RSPCA would find out and you'd likely get sent to prison.

Anyway, I thought they all had tractors in Texas nowadays, what with all that oil.

--
Stick Men

You can't win them all by santiago79830 · 2005-05-08 23:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

In 40 years of employment, I found there were some times that it was impossible to leave without burning bridges. Sure, it's best to avoid this if you can, but it just isn't always possible. You simply cannot control the actions of another individual; you can only influence them. My advice would be to keep documentation on what has happened, just in case you need it later. Meanwhile, you have no obligation to find a replacement, etc. You've given reasonable notice. You already have another job waiting. There is no reason to do anything else - unless you just want to leave early to avoid additional harassment. Don't blame yourself, or do anything silly because of someone else's actions. Best of luck!

Department of Labor will handle it all for you by cliffpeaslee · 2005-05-09 00:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

I ran into a similar situation, and the DOL sent a threatening letter to my boss, and he complied about as quick as he received it. I considered small claims, but that would have taken months and I'd have to pay for lawyer. DOL is quick (at least in NH). I filed on Saturday, he received the letter on Thursday, and he had to pay by Monday (10 days). If he refused, then the state would defend me. Oh, it is all actionable if he misses the pay period. Good luck.

Bridges not just your boss by msheppard · 2005-05-09 01:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

Remember that it's not just your boss you are trying to maintain a professional relationship with. If you just "walk off" you might be screwing over people other than him. Do what you can to maintain a good relationship with as many people as you can. You'll be suprised how that can help you in the long term. Most places don't want references from just your boss, they want people you've worked with too. Now might be a great time to go over his head and let his boss know that you are trying to help.

M@

--
Krispy Cream is people

Be Very, Very Careful by xchknfrmr · 2005-05-09 01:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've been in similar situations. One employer got into a fistfight with an employee who was leaving. You should 1. Turn in any keys, security cards, etc. NOW. If you have high security access to servers or other resources relinquish them NOW. Tell your boss why you are doing this (so that there won't be a possibility that you can be accused if something is missing, stolen, etc.) Do this publicly. 2. Do NOT tell your current employer who your next employer will be. Sometimes the nutzo employer will call your future employer and bad mouth you. If your next employer is smart they'll ignore him, but sometimes people lose job opportunities to this. 3. Contact your next employer and see if you can go ahead and start work now. 4. Don't confront your nutzoid employer, but do tell him (quietly and civil-like in PUBLIC) that you're uncomfortable with his hostile behavior and would he mind if you left now? 5. If he indicates that you may leave now-GET IT IN WRITING. if he says no, and continues to threaten you then report him to your local labor authorities. Don't leave until he's been contacted by the labor folks or your notice is up. 6. Do not agree to anything he requests, demands, etc. in private. ALWAYS be in public or have someone accompany you to any meetings with him. Back up any agreements with a formal memo detailing the agreement and copy someone else in the department as well as your boss.

You can't.... by OhHellWithIt · 2005-05-09 01:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

You can't leave this job on good terms. Your boss has already decided that question. You may still be able to leave on good terms with everyone else in the company by working to transition your tasks and knowledge, to ensure they aren't stuck cleaning up a train wreck. If your cow-orkers see that you are doing your utmost to ensure continuity and sanity for the company, then they will remember that when they leave -- which won't be long, IMHO. In a year or two, you may get a job or referral from them.

I am not a lawyer, but unless you have an employment contract that says you are responsible for finding your own replacement, the boss cannot hold your final paycheck for that. Play it clean and to the rule to the end, and document, document, document. If you aren't paid promptly and in full after you leave, check to see if there is either a state labor board, or an arm of the U.S. Dept. of Labor (I'm assuming you're in the U.S.) having to do with wage complaints. Failing that, just file suit in small claims court. I'm betting he cuts the check for you the day he gets the summons.

--
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell

Stick It Out and Get Your Due by standbypowerguy · 2005-05-09 02:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

I was in a similar situation a few years ago, when I was wooed by a competitor offering a superior position, but only a modest salary increase. I gave my then-current employer the opportunity to match the salary and open up an avenue for advancement (my position at the time was a dead end, and I had risen to the top of the salary matrix), but they declined. So I gave them the customary two weeks' notice.

It was like pushing the "nasty behavior" button. They immediately confiscated my company truck and tools (did they think I would take them with me to the new job?), then asked me to serve out my final two weeks assisting another engineer (stripped of responsibility as punishment... vindictive bastards, they were). I guess they figured I'd quit and forfeit my accrued vacation. Fat chance!

I took the high road, politely explained that I had important support tasks scheduled at other engineers' facilities (I was a roving specialist) and offered to use my personal vehicle and tools. Of course, I submitted vouchers for mileage, which they were required to pay per company policy. At the end of it all, I was paid everything due me, including vacation time, and had the satisfaction of leaving on a high note, with the respect of my peers and associates.

I'd advise you to do the same. Take the high road, be profesional, and stick it out. If they give you any crap over compensation, haul them before your locale's version of the National Labor Relations Board.

--
This isn't the sig you're looking for... Move along.

Re:just a word of warning by tomhudson · 2005-05-09 02:31 · Score: 2, Informative

It's illegal for *the police*, its not illegal for you to record your own conversation.

And its not very likely that someone who's caught recorded harrassing someone and thratening to withhold paychecks, etc., is going to be in any position to complain.

Here's some law: http://yarchive.net/phone/call_recording.html - phone conversations

I have used tape recordings of my own phone calls in court. According to FCC rules, only one party to the conversation (that's me) now must to be aware of the recording. In other words, third party wiretapping is still illegal but it is not illegal to record your own conversations.

and, even in states that require both partys' consent for a phone conversation, the same rules don't apply for non-phone conversations http://www.rtnda.org/resources/hiddencamera/michig an.html

Participant recording Because Michigan's definition of "eavesdrop" is to "overhear, record, amplify or transmit any part of the private discourse of others," Michigan courts have held that participant recording (even without the consent of the other parties) is not prohibited. Therefore, a party to the conversation can record the conversation himself without obtaining the consent of the other parties. He cannot, however, employ a third party to record the conversation on his behalf without getting the consent of all the parties.

People have been watching too much tv. Nobody will arrest you for recording your own activities in a place where there's no expectation of privacy.

honesty by awb131 · 2005-05-09 02:50 · Score: 2, Funny

I'd say honesty is the best policy.

Something like: "You know, fellow co-workers, I like most of you and have enjoyed working with you. Except you (points), you're an idiot, and you (points again) you're a douchebag. I have been offered an extra twenty thousand dollars a year to work in an environment that is less fun, and I'm going to take it. Good luck figuring out what all those little scripts in my ~/bin directory do. If you can't figure it out, feel free to give me a call. Except you (points.)"

You'll still be on good terms with anybody who matters.

--
"There is no night so forlorn, no mood so bleak, that it cannot be infused with pleasure by tender meat..." - R.W. Apple

Try to save your good will, but there are limits: by Systems+Curmudgeon · 2005-05-09 06:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's a small world and you never know when you're going to run into the same people again. It's worth almost every decent effort to be cooperative and helpful, to try to end your current job with a good conscience.

Confronting your boss is very risky. There's only one way I would recommend if you have to - insist on a meeting with your boss AND his boss to plan how you will best use your remaining time (and while you're at it, make your case that you're being a good employee). Bear in mind that as a departing employee, you are actually providing your company the service of being able to blame things on you rather than look in the mirror. As a consultant I've faced this a lot, and I just regard it as one of the things I'm paid for (see below). Don't let it get to you.

NEXT time you change jobs, here are some pieces of advice:
(1) Don't tell anyone at work about your new job until you start it and decide how you like it. (2) Give as little notice as you decently can, rarely more than two weeks. Longer notice opens you up as a longterm target.
(3) Think about negotiating a "reciprocal notice" clause, something I've managed to do for 20 years. The idea is that the amount of notice you are required to give the company is the same that they are require to give you, be it one hour, two weeks or whatever; the more security they give you, the more you give them.
(4) Since we always sign agreements about proprietary property (which tend to be vaguely written in favor of the employer), it's a good idea when you change jobs to change to a somewhat different field, to avoid charges you are taking knowledge with you. Your boss of course has no right to withhold your paycheck for any grounds whatsoever. If you're worried about a real problem here, get copies of all relevant company policy BEFORE your last day. It will be much harder after you leave the company. Make it gently clear to the company president, if they actually try to withhold your paycheck, that you will be contacting your senator, a lawyer, and the relevant state regulatory boards (even though such boards probably do not exist) and that the time they spend dealing with you will be a much greater waste than paying you. E.g., "If you try to illegally withhold my paycheck, you're going to wind up spending an awful lot of time responding to queries by the government and all the relevant regulatory agencies I find. Heck I might even have to get a lawyer if we part on bad terms, I'd to do that. Why not pay me now instead of wasting all that precious time?"

If they try to make you sign something before you leave, you almost have to insist that you show it to an intellectual property lawyer before you sign; believe me, the stakes will be too high. If they are offering your $50,000 or more, take it or leave it, to sign without a lawyer, it might be worth it.

Finally, here's an example of how I was paid to be the "dumped on" person in one job. My main responsibility was to write the user documentation telling the customer how to operate the system. For years after I left this job, I ran into people who knew I had "failed" in this. The reason I wrote no user documentation at all was that there were no specs for this system, it never got out of the design phase, there was no running software, and no one could tell me what the user screens were going to look like! When told I failed to document this system, I just smile.

http://precision-blogging.blogspot.com/

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How to Leave a Job on Good Terms?

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