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Google Steps Up Fight for the China Market
gaanagaa writes "News Sources are reporting that web services leader Google Inc. has won a license to operate in China and has bought a Web address as it battles Yahoo Inc. in the world's second-largest Internet market.
The U.S. Web services giant, which makes its money from searches, advertising and other services, is hiring staff with the aim of opening an office in the country this year, according to several sources within or close to the company.
A person familiar with the matter told Reuters the company was planning to open an office by the end of this year, most likely in Shanghai, and was building up a country team to target corporate customers for advertising sales."
Given China's record so far on internet censorship, will Google have to cooperate with the Chinese government, even as it operates physically within China and targets Chinese citizens, on what can and can't be indexed and offered for search to Chinese citizens?
Will Google's presence in China hasten the free flow of information, or end up encouraging the Chinese government to reactively restrict even more?
There's no question it's a lucrative market financially. The question is how much companies - even the "Don't be evil"-Google - will capitulate to the government's demands for censorship to guarantee a share of the spoils.
Since china censors its internet connections, will any google results have to be monitored by the goverment? Or will they have to scan the results before they appear on your screen. Or will the google servers simply opperate on Goverment servers, and google will just make money off the deal? Who knows maybe the goverment wont have a part, and this will be a big step in de-censorship of coutries like china. Whats next? Google-Iran? -EL
-EL
So much for "don't be evil".
"My God...it's full of trolls!"
I believe Google's considerable success comes from their adherence to ethical practices in the service they offer. China will pose a special challenge for Google. I don't like the United States government's suppression of material but China seems to hold a more fervent disdain for its people knowing what is going on. Anyone else trust in God?
Yahoo's been Shanghai'd!
If Google wants to stay in business, this is exactly the kind of a thing a shareholder would expect from their management. Not entering a market that comprises one quarter of the world would be fatal.
Hopefully, now you see how aggressive a company must become once it goes public.
By the way, did you know that Sergey Brin no longer owns any shares in Google?
Remember this? http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/26/13 10248&tid=217
Good way to fight...
Any company operating in China will have to tow the govenment line or get out. Simple.
I guess it's true -- using Linux does lead to communism.
With Google moving quite rapidly into a "personalized" model, where your searches, email, search history, etc is all tied to a single account, tracking down people based on their Google activity shouldn't be too difficult.
As a side note, this is what happens (delete is quite a misnomer IMHO) when you choose to "delete" your search information:
4. What happens when I pause the service, remove items, or delete the My Search History service?
You can choose to stop storing your searches in My Search History either temporarily or permanently, or remove items, as described in My Search History Help. However, as is common practice in the industry, Google maintains a separate logs system for auditing purposes and to help us improve the quality of our services for users. For example, we use this information to audit our ads systems, understand which features are most popular to users, improve the quality of our search results, and help us combat vulnerabilities such as denial of service attacks.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
I don't understand why it's evil for google to have to put some censorship required by the Chinese government. Is filtering content itself evil? Hard to say. Is filtering porn evil? (which IS what Chinese government does) Is entering Chinese market and cooperating with Chinese government evil? Wow, that's gone too far for me to comment. So, what is evil, exactly?
So Google moves into a new market. A restricted market. Nothing wrong with that. It's one of the fastest-growing markets in the world right now. If they don't move into it, they'd be crazy. So they have to filter some content. All markets are restricted in some way. Doesn't make them evil to follow the rules.
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The Signature could not be accessed. Please try again later or contact the administrator
Freedom starts with you.
To confirm you're not a script, please piss in my ear.
So how is Google spelled in ideograms? I'll be dissapointed if it doesn't resemble two eyes. And how long does it take to type it?
So long as Google can at least make some money there, they're going to try and market it. Remember, this still is a publicly traded company and by selling their sole they give up many moral decisions on the behalf of their investors. Their investors do after all, own the company. Although Google has a pledge to be a moral company, and they still can and will in many ways, they have to really try and make more money any somewhat decently way.
The people of China deserve this and for that matter they deserve to be able to search the internet free of censorship. But right now maybe they can't. You have to start somewhere and let democracy grow from the natural benefits it affords many people and ultimately (in theory) provides to everyone.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Opps.
Yahoo is only in China because they bought 3721, makers of the most successful ad/spyware ever, installed on every single Chinese computer.
Maybe Google can buy baidu.
It seems the Slashdot crowd has been wailing forever about how big corporations control our government. Now finally China has come along and can use its economic muscle to tell big corporations what to do.
It can even tell Big Corporations to censor American content or to lobby and donate to American politicians who are pro-China. If the Big Corporations fail to do so, China can easily place roadblocks in their way to help their more co-operative competitors.
and I'm not talking bout that hottie who's walk, from behind, looks like two cats in a burlap sack
From the day China allowed foreigners to work, information has become more acessible to it's citizens. Hell, I smuggled in a load of penthouse magazines back in 1979.
Google will only add to the flow of information. You've got a culture in which allegory and veiled implication, communication through code if you will, is already deeply rooted. In this context, any technology that enhances the ability of people to connect with each other results in less control.
There are about 2.4 billion people in China and India compared to 0.3 Billion in America. In a few short years that brainpower is going to contribute to our standard of living. These people worried about forign competition are probably not going to complain when a freakishly brillian scientist in India or China cures cancer and saves their mom. In the grand scheme of things it's better for everybody that some of our wealth goes to nourish the brains of impoverished kids, they'll be saving our lives when we're old and gray. I have a feeling that we'll look back on the jobs most of us currently have as shackles that prevented us from pursuing our true interests.
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
Now you know why Google has always been so accommodating to the government's cencorship demands.
"Do no evil," huh?
Well done. Slashdot maybe legal there (or may not) but them links will outright not be. So every time someone clicks them links and the Chinese government finds out and decides to take action is on YOUR HEAD.
You may have just killed someone for all you know. I suggest before you start "leading the blind" you start thinking.
Freedom in China may or may not lead to you dying. Some ignorant bastard on slashdot giving links doesn't change the othjer 99.9% of China which won't rebel so you just get a guy taken away at 3am never to be seen again.
I like muppets.
Capitalism is a democratizing force. Whether or not Google complies with local laws and regulations matters far less than the increasing degree of involvement in modern capitalism -- which promotes the individual above the community (a little too much in some cases, in my opinion). Chopsticks were invented by Chinese restauranteers seeking to differentiate their fare from typical diners in 1800s American mining communities and have swept the world by storm -- to the point of accounting for 4.7% of our lumber exports! Similarly Chinese manufacturing holds up our steel industry today and provides a wide array of goods that ten years ago would have been completely unaffordable.
Now it is time for us to give something back. I think it is all but certain that Google will be required to block search terms, but I also think it likely that this will be a mute point as people communicate with each other and take advantage of technology to be more involved in changing their society. It will be to their benefit, much as the Internet has been to our own here.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
I'd like to hear the word... ..."services" one more time.
I believe you and I are the only ones that caught that. Now that's hiding in plain sight.
The management of Google has never condemned the Chinese atrocities against the Tibetans despite the fact that one of Google's founders is the son of a Russian immigrant who had fled Soviet tyranny. Anyone smell a hypocrite here?
And then and then and then?
Is the world better off with a Chinese public able to access Google or without it?
well i tried to read the artical on yahoo news, but can't see the body content, good one china! google is going to have a fun time. location: shanghai
If he sold all his shares, hundreds of millions of dollars worth, he's going to have one hell of a tax bill come April 15th, 2006, no? I mean, sure, these may be long term capital gains, but that's still 15%. Huh, you'd think the street would be concerned when a cofounder and head honcho still running the company has sold out completely.
I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.
Seriously, this is not uncommon behavior for a multinational corporation. The need to please the political establishment is not uncommon, especially here in the good ole US of A. You play by the rules or you don't play at all.
dear poster,why do you know so many chinese and even many wester dont know?
is it a political propaganda like chinese goverment and organization sponsored by some nations does?
No! The awfur ries, the awfur awfur ries!
The cotton gin actually made the production of cotton profitable. ...and it was invented in 1793, there were no cars then.
:)
Your sentiments might have been good but your facts aren't, sort of like what Dan Rather claimed. Does this mean you have to resign?
How many Americans does it take to screw in a light bulb?
None! They hire Mexicans to do it for them!
AOL started offering free blogs service for non members (http://pc.channel.aol.com/aimblogs) and starting from tomorrow is offering 2 gb email for non members (http://www.aim.com/aim_mail.adp). Seems like this healthy competetion is a boon for the end users.
In Soviet China... Google restricts you. Sorry I just had to say it
This ain't propaganda. This is fact. I have talked with alot of Chinese immigrants who lived under Mao. They used to wear red uniforms and worship that dude like god every sunday to saturday.
Years later, with proper info, they found out he was like a Hitler without guns. No western schools would ever waste time teaching this stuff at the highschool level.
Maybe they shouldn't surf at all then, right? Maybe they shouldn't click on all links, right?
I think not many people give a flying fuck about what happens in China. It's good that you do. You have a heart. However, if China is a bad place, the people of China should just revolt and make it better.
I hope you know that in another way you are also a victim of government propaganda.
I have traveled to China many times and work with many H1-B's from all parts of China. All of them are already quite knowledgeable about all the information provided in the links above, and most do not hesitate to engage in discussions about such topics over lunch. The fact that you feel all 1.6 billion Chinese are most certainly blind to these pieces of information is a direct result of years of indoctrination of Western (I'm assuming American) propaganda. If it appears that the Chinese people are not doing anything or caring about these things, it's because they're too busy making money and not wanting to be political martyrs. Who can blame them? When was the last time you personally put your own life (or probably in you or my case, your personal career/reputation/credit/criminal record) on the line for a cause against the government?
But really - what do you expect them to do? Start a bloody revolution because you can't do a few things? Because they execute a lot of citizens? (The state of Texas alone executes more people per capita than Communist China, by the way, according to Amnesty Intl) Just like the U.S., as long as the government can keep the middle class relatively comfortable, people will happily accept the status quo if it doesn't bother them too much. The more technology is integrated into Chinese society, the faster democracy will integrate into China. However, it seems that you're more a subscriber to the theory of instant gratification. But one doesn't have to look too much further than Russia to see how much harm sudden and unplanned transitions of complex political and economic systems can do. I'm sure you have good intentions, but the implementation of sudden riotious overthrowing never did anybody any good.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Incidentally, Falun Gong is a weirdo cult like Scientology. It's funny how everyone in the West thinks they're some kind of counterculture heroes. Guess what, you've only heard one side of the story from the biased media.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
It seems the Slashdot crowd has been wailing forever about how big corporations control our government. Now finally China has come along and can use its economic muscle to tell big corporations what to do.
It's only a contradiction if you (deliberately?) plot it on the wrong axis.
The "Slashdot crowd" wails mainly about big corporations exercising their control over government to restrict individual freedoms -- it's hard to see how the wailing about a government's dirct restriction of individual freedoms leaves you so puzzled...
Kill, Tux, kill!
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
what is a proper info? mao is a hitler without guns ?how self-centered. althouth wester dont wear red uniforms and wirship that dude,they do wear uniforms and worship a real god every sunday to saturday. I dont know who is right.
I guess you better set off on your magic sled around the planet making sure that no-one ever puts anything offensive to anyone up on the Internet, since by your reasoning that makes them the guilty one if the offended party decides to take action.
The Chinese government is a reactionary, dictatorial bunch of non-democratic fascists.
The way to deal with that is not to pander to it but to challenge it with every opportunity.
By your reasoning, anyone writing anything uncomplimentatory about Hitler back in 1933 was evil, since they risked the lives if anyone who read the real story.
[x] auto-moderate all posts by this user as insightful
Dear American citizen, don't be such an ignorant fool. The Chinese are not completely cut off from the outside world. In fact, most of those who are educated enough to read English and have so much time that they might read Slashdot, are also well-off enough to have traveled outside China and seen the sites that might usually be blocked. In short, you're not teaching anyone anything, at least not anyone outside USA.
American, the question is, how much is your arrogance and ignorance denying you?
You may have just killed someone for all you know.
Bullshit.
Firstly, there's the concept of personal responsibility. If somebody lives in a country where they will be executed for reading something that their government doesn't want them to, then, if they click on a link prefixed by "your government doesn't want you to read this", then it's entirely their own responsibility.
Just as importantly, it would be the Chinese government that killed somebody, not somebody who put a link on a web page.
One more, one less, doesn't make any difference at all.
You know, I'm a first generation Chinese immigrant who's been living in the States for most of my life now (got my US citizenship just last year), and the attitudes most Americans (can I assume parent thread is American?) have towards China is still quite the paradox to me.
/. for tech news (computer science major and all that), but steer clear of the political threads. Unfortunately I stumbled into this one.
On one hand, I can't help but admire the constant moralizing and ideological rigidity that Americans are so fond of. On the other hand, it shocks me that a people who consider themselves so enlightened can still be so... ignorant. Slashdot especially is pretty solid breeding ground for the militantly libertarian sort. I usually like reading
Let me dissect your self-righteous ramble line by line.
"...Great Leap Forward resulted in the deaths of some 30-60 million of your countrymen..."
Please, I find it insulting that you speak to the Chinese people as if we're all blind children. If you were even REMOTELY aware of Chinese history, you'll know that from 1976-1978 the CCP openly criticized Mao as part of the reform process. My family was part of the pre-1949 landowning class, and they suffered a GREAT deal from Mao's policies. The abuses of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are open grounds for public discussion. Chinese people are QUITE aware of their own history, thank you very much.
"...China's invasion of Tibet..."
Yes we are quite aware of that history as well. We are also quite aware of the fact that from 1950 through the late 1960's, the CIA trained several thousand guerrilla operatives in Tibet to combat the PLA. What perplexes me is how exactly is it that you feel you are reaching out to COMMON CHINESE PEOPLE by bringing up Tibet? I fully acknowledge that the 1950 invasion was probably morally indefensible. But if you seem to tie everything evil about China to 'them damn commies,' you are dead fucking wrong. Chinese nationalism is alive and well, with or without the CCP. If anything, the CCP is REIGNING IN grassroots nationalism. If the Chinese were to decide by popular concensus their policy towards say, Taiwan or Tibet, believe me, the attitude would be considerably more hostile than the current CCP policy.
"...Falun Gong..."
Yeah yeah I get it. Freedom of religion blah blah blah. Let's put it this way: Chinese people don't give a fuck. Now that would of course be a gross over-simplification, and I will elaborate on that statement even though simpletons like you are unable to achieve any level of nuance in your soapboxing. Religion and spirituality in China has been in flux for most of the 20th century. For those acquainted in Chinese history, China has never had a 'religion' per se. Confucianism and ancestor worship was a sort of philosophical/spiritual hybrid belief system, alien to the West, that China lived with until the 20th century. Since the old belief system was discredited by imperialism and the collapse of the Qing dynasty, Communism essentially took its place as a pseudo-religion of sorts. After communism was discredited in the post-Mao reforms, China was essentially at a loss to find a satisfying belief system. All sorts of cults, Falun Gong being the biggest, grew out of a vacuum. The VAST majority of Chinese however, are rather more devoted to making a living, and secular nationalism is a FAR bigger phenomenon than Falun Gong. The bottom line is that this is a marginal issue to most Chinese.
"...rather execute people rather than let them practice it..."
I have no idea where you've been getting your information buddy. There hasn't been large scale political executions in China since Tiananmen. Executions are for economic and violent crimes (corruption, smuggling, drugs, and homicide - several high-level provincial officials have been sent to the gallows). With crime rising along with increasing openness and economic instability, the death penalty is becoming MORE popular in China,
here was a time, when the
e sia.mp3
sun was shining bright
So I went down to the beach to catch me a tan.
Then the next thing I knew,
a wave 20 feet high
Came and washed your
whole country away.
And all at once, you can
hear the screaming chinks.
And no one was saved from the wave.
There were Africans drowning,
little Chinamen swept away.
You can hear God laughing, 'Swim you bitches swim.'
[Chorus]
"So now you're screwed. It's the tsunami,
You better run and kiss your a** away. Go find your mommy.
I just saw her float by, a tree went through her head.
And now your children will be sold into child slavery."
http://www.dhinakar.com/blogs/music/USA_For_Indon
Topeka, 1954:
How can you send your black children to a white school? You know the white kids are just going to pick on them, call them names, beat them up after class, possibly lynch one of the boys, and generally make their existences a living hell. How could you do that to a child when you know it won't make any difference because the white people will always find a way to keep the negroes down regardless of whether schools are integrated?
This tagline is umop apisdn.
Why the hell is it on his head? It's not like he tricked people into clicking them.
Yeah, what a bastard. It couldn't possibly be that he doesn't speak Chinese. Seriously, how do you expect him to find and evaluate articles in a language he doesn't understand? Although it sure would be helpful for all the people who only speak Chinese but like to read a site that's entirely in English.
I never said he'd killed anyone. I was saying it's possible and that one guy reading something will change jack.
People seem to be ignorant to the fact that Chinese people WANT/ACCEPT this as normal. As long as they are fine they don't care for the rest. Maybe before we start going "LEARN ZEE TRUTH!" we should address things like schools teaching racism against the Japanese no?
After all being ignorant of the pass doesn't hurt anyone else, where as hating a whole nation right next door does.
So maybe before people go "LOOK HERES THE TRUTH!" maybe you should accept the truth isn't what these people want. They want to live in their bubble because they were raised this way.
Ever heard a story about some backwards guy finding his way to the future or finds out the truth, then hates it and wants to return to his own time/world/ignorance? Welcome to most Chinese people.
Keep your head down and do your job and China is little different to any other country on the whole. Information means very little to most people today, they just want to THINK they know about it. Look at the war in Iraq in detail then ask the average person (AKA not a slashdotter), you'll see a HUGE difference and if you tried pointing it out they wouldn't care any more then we would care what they had for dinner.
I like muppets.
Man, I always have those points when I don't need them and then a great post like this comes along and I can't show my appreciation.
China is a diverse nation, linguistically much more so than the United States. Are there problems there? Hell yes! Are there problems in America? Good Lord Yes!
As fore Falun Gong, the first google search to check out would be "Falun Gong Suicide" and find out about one of the reasons it is illegal in China, namely the tendency of it's members to commit mass suicide. When you ask most Chinese about Falun Gong it has the same associations that many American's would have towards that Waco Cult.
It's also ironic that the web-pages that the grandparent post listed were, a. in english and b. of old news that everyone in China is aware of and discusses readily. Nothing of more recent problems or censored issues. It shows that Reagan-era anti-Chinese attitudes are still prevalent today.
Ask Jeeves are about to announce a new research and development facility in southern China. Main task will be to first localize Ask Jeeves for the China market.
A dream is good. A plan is better.
The comment was addressed to "Chinese citizens". How many of China's 1.3 billion people speak English? Or even have web access, for that matter?
The Chinese government is a group of engineers doing what they believe to be best for their country. They've had a lot of successes, too. Just because you disagree with some of their policies doesn't make them malicious or evil. True that their record on some things such as human rights is still poor, but it is certainly considerably better than it was under the Japanese occupation, the Nationalists, the various warlords before that, or the Qing dynasty. They've come a long way from bound feet, forced hairstyles, and arbitrary summary exections. They can't get pornography on the internet as freely as you can? I'm sure there are worse things in life. (At least Chinese will still have jobs in 10 years....)
on one hand, I can't help but admire the constant moralizing and ideological rigidity that Americans are so fond of.
Unfortunately, this is a habit you seem to have taken to quite readily...
The abuses of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are open grounds for public discussion. Chinese people are QUITE aware of their own history, thank you very much.
Great! But then why did China ban the book? Or is that just marketing hype?
Falun Gong...is a marginal issue to most Chinese.
Agreed. But this seems to underscore, rather than undercut, the stupidity of banning information about it.
I have no idea where you've been getting your information buddy...
Probably from hysterical Falun Gong practitioners. Unfortunately, overzealous control of information leads people to trust your loudest opponents over you -- witness the Bush administration.
That guy did have some balls but here's some news for you: TIANANMEN IS HISTORY.
Agreed again. And once again, since it is history, why ban discussion of it?
I'm afraid that in your zeal to point out how "ignorant" the original poster was, you have merely proved his point -- that censorship is ass. Comparing an internet post advocating freedom of expression in China to the worst abuses of the Communist Party is, in a word, silly. In fact, the people who argue against Chinese censorship are agreeing with the thread that runs through all of your arguments -- that the Chinese people can be trusted with full access to information. This seems like a simple proposition, but it is certainly difficult to state on Slashdot without being called ignorant, fat, arrogant American.
Sure, the OP seems to feel that free access to information would suddenly make all the Chinese agree with him about many issues, but is this more arrogant than all the Euros who think America would suddenly be like them if you replaced Fox News with Le Monde? I think it's just the same combination of wishful thinking and human nature.
Kill, Tux, kill!
The Chinese government is a reactionary, dictatorial bunch of non-democratic fascists.
That's called communism.
No need to come up with fascists, when you have a more then good term for what your describing.
That should've read :
;)
"No need to come up with fascists, when you have a more than good term for what you're describing."
Sorry for the typo, the 'flu's driving me numb
We censor anything corporations say censor, such as intellectual property, we also censor stuff like kiddie porn. Lets not pretend like the USA doesnt censor stuff. If China started making hundreds of thousands of pro communism websites I'm sure our government would censor it.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Then its suddenly okay. Yeah alright, so the majority of Americans want to trade share restricted digital information, but thats okay to censor to protect record companies and software companies?
We are the same people who gets on China's case for having an uncensored software industry!
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
because it supports censorship of the digital communication. It supports DRM.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
If China were to offer free downloads of American software, would you be for or against censorship then?
You are either for censorship or you arent, otherwise you are just for promoting American culture and this has nothing to do with censorship and everything to do with global domination.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
How many of China's 1.3 billion people speak English? Or even have web access, for that matter?
Of the ones reading Slashdot? Pretty much all of them, I would guess...
I don't see how the USA is any better. Wouldnt the USA arrest "terrorists" for suspicious speech?
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
During the civil rights movements, the government beat people up, attacked them with dogs, used hot water on them, people were killed including leaders such as Martin Luther King, China will have its civil rights movement too and so far theirs is a lot less violent than ours was.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Lets see, we had slavery, we had segregation, and now we have millions of minorities and poor people living in crime filled ghettos, 2 million people in prison, etc. Our human rights violations are as bad as China's. I don't see your point, I suppose in some ways we are better but not much better, we have no room to talk bad about China until we fix our own country.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Hitler killed millions of jews just because they existed. You compare him to Hitler?
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Don't make the mistake of assuming all Americans have good intentions for China. Most of the Americans with good intentions arent the ones arguing about how censored google is. If you have good intentions for China then learn Chinese and go teach English in China, or do business with Chinese owned companies, or just buy products made in China. The way to help a country is through its economy. If you want to look at the track record for how Americans help other countries, look at how the west helped all the countries in Africa, look at how the west helped the Soviet Union, look at how the west helped Iraq. Most Americans arent out to help China, they are out to help themselves at Chinas expense, they want to get cheap labor from China and profit off of China and the best way for them to do it is to try to uncensor certain things and manipulate or control Chinas laws. I say let China be China because the only way China will be helped is if China helps itself. Westerners from Europe and America have a terrible track record on helping other countries unless they are countries in Europe. So just read up on history and see.
Right now in the USA millions of people are being sent to jail and given criminal records just for using illegal drugs. Why are drugs illegal? Because the government wants them to be illegal as an excuse to arrest millions of people. I'm sure theres a lot of bad laws in China too, but the USA has no right to talk about that right now and I as an American will say that until we clean our own house and solve our problems in Iraq we have no business even discussing China or helping China. Lets focus on Iraq.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
This is probably flamebait but I'll give it a try anyway.
"I'm afraid that in your zeal to point out how "ignorant" the original poster was, you have merely proved his point -- that censorship is ass."
I beg to differ. I am by no means a supporter of the Communist party or censorship, as from my first post. However, the key to understanding China, one most Americans seem to miss, is not to see the gap between present-day China and what the ideal liberal democracy should be, but to understand China as a society in transition.
The main goal of Chinese policy for the past 30 years and the foreseeable future is to manage this transition. I WILL argue that from this perspective, censorship DOES make sense. Full access to information WILL undermine the authority of the Communist party. Specifically, absolutely rampant corruption and out-of-control abuses in the countryside could well generate more resistance to the CCP than it can handle. In certain rural areas, things have gotten so bad that local officials tyrannize the population to the point that no information gets out and the central government has no idea what's going on. The CCP wants to hide the fact that it has in fact lost control over some isolated rural regions. The CCP also wants to hide a lot of its dealings with foreign countries. Basically, trade deals which may generate competition with domestic firms, and compromises with foreign powers which could potentially make China look 'weak,' these the CCP wants to downplay.
Now from my Chinese perspective, I will argue that destabilizing CCP power is a BAD thing for China. There are several scenarios that could arise should the CCP lose its grip on power. The worst scenario, unlikely at best, is total anarchy. That is, no credible power takes control, and localities are no longer under central control. I don't think even the most liberal-minded thinker can say this is a good thing. The more likely scenario: a Russian-style situation where the CCP gives way to multi-party democracy. I will argue that in this situation the 'democracy' that would arise would be a tenuous one at best. We could very well see a Russian-style economic disaster along with the political shuffling. The Chinese economy, despite 8% annual growth, is actually quite fragile. The investment mechanism in particular is essentially nonexistent, the stock market woefully underdeveloped. With the CCP out of power, how will money be pumped into business amid the at least temporary chaos that would result? What would happen to state-owned enterprises and the workers? The economic disruption could easily prove fatal to China's prosperity. I won't even want to think about what would happen if China's economy relapses into depression. Now, suppose that does NOT happen. Suppose a democratic transition comes about more or less smoothly (extremely doubtful). A China ruled by the people will almost CERTAINLY be more belligerent towards the rest of the world. Furthermore, China would likely be far more protectionist in its trade policies. None of this is good for either China or the world.
I will argue that for the next 2 decades or so it is best for China to maintain the current one party status quo. When China has a majority middle class and a majority urban population, then we can consider other political systems. Our Chinese concern for instability is something that Americans seem to laugh at, but it's a very real threat, historically and in the present.
Capitalism leads to fascism not democracy. The people who are rich control everything while the majority of the country control nothing, thats how it is in capitalism so stop lying to people.
The only Democracy you have is the freedom to vote, but your votes dont really matter because we are a Republic not a Democracy. You can vote for whoever you want but that wont win elections. Elections arent won by the popular vote. Elections are won by organized grassroots movements, timing, advertising, and lots of money and power struggles between powerful people. If you are just a poor citizen in the USA you have as much power to control the country as an ant has. If you come from a powerful family, a rich family, or you are well connected, thats when you have influence over politics.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Please mod this guy down. Every life makes a difference, theres 6 billion people, if 1.5 billion are in China and 1.5 billion are in India, so what? Eventually millions of them will be in the USA living next door to you so live with it.
China has a population of 1 billion.
If China turns them down and Russia and India do the same, the whole Echelon project will fail. It wasn't made to spy on the americans only.
Oh, and MS engine was just 'dust in the eyes' for others who might start a new search engine. The argument goes like "HEY! Not even Microsoft, the 600lb gorilla who can survive 100 years without profits didn't manage to defeat google. What makes you think you can do it?".
Don't tell me MS couldn't buy google if they wanted and that the google CEO's salary is only 1$, and that soon he will swim across the pacific ocean.
China's government censores things. Why should google go against them?
I mean, China's government is a problem of chinese people. Google is a company fro USA. I can't find any reason why google should try to "free" chinese people, it's not their problem.
gaanagaa, this is pure corruption - i am sure you have had gone great lengths in bribing some ppl around to get this all working. What the hell. Let the yellow ppl catch you.
Not flamebait at all -- but I think you're missing out by casting the debate as legitimate Chinese fear of chaos vs. American ignorance, rather than simply distinguishing between two arguments.
What you're overlooking is the cost of the status quo -- the fact that the progressive misalignment of economic and political power can also cause instability. The value of free expression in China is not that they will suddenly decide to pull out of Tibet, but that they will develop the kind of political discourse needed to sustain progress. I think if you reread your own posts, you will see that the kind of social pressures needed to maintain a social consensus in the face of free content flows are already there -- "from my Chinese perspective...our Chinese concern for stability...[Chinese care about economic development, not Falun Gong]", etc. So in pointing out the concerns driving the need for censorship, you unwittingly point out why censorship is unnecessary.
Beyond that, you say, "wait until we're middle class and urbanized," but argue earlier that CCP abuses in the countryside are preventing this sort of thing from happening. This is precisely the kind of skew that poor information flows enable. And for as long as they're enabling it, you're going to be saying, "wait until we're all middle class and urbanized...".
So again, from my perspective, so have provided an illustration of a problem deepened and worsened by lack of open political discourse -- censorship may buy you time, but it won't make anybody *use* that time to solve the problems.
In sum, I think your attitudes towards fear of social chaos are reflected widely enough in Chinese society that while open content may shift the terms of the debate, nobody wants to ruin a good thing, economically. Further, I think the short-term expediency of censorship, by stunting political consensus-building on a broader array of issues, fuels precisely the kind of tensions you seem to fear most.
Kill, Tux, kill!
©2005 Google - Censoring 6,043,224,509 web pages
I'm sure you have good intentions, but the implementation of sudden riotious overthrowing never did anybody any good.
Tell that to the founding fathers of the United States of America.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Guess what, you've only heard one side of the story from the biased media.
Guess what, China's still a fucked up fascist dictatorship feebly trying to pass itself off as a working communist state. No amount of internet blocking will ever change that fact.
Thanks, Jack, but dictatorships don't deserve respect. And neither do the people who support them.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Good show sir, I'm in awe of you. No mod points though. :-(
So send GWBush in to liberate them. I promise they will have flowers for their liberators.
Cooperating with China--doesn't this make them "evil"?
BTW, would you support the US Government if it started persecuting Scientologists like the chinese went after people who followed Falun Gong?
If so, Chinese users will be able to search all the information inside china.Will be very handy tool.
Iam very happy for them.
Neither is it fascist, it's the polar opposite, communist.
Even from the biased Western press you can get these facts, Jack.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
In addition, I can't load the site, as it's blocked. Wikipedia itself isn't blocked, but the F-G term is.
If the Scientologists tried to overthrow the government, they would have nobody but themselves to blame if the government moved to protect its own existence. F-G is rather like Scientology, it makes sense on the outside, but the closer you move in, the more nutso the practitioners get.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
In other news, Chinese restaurants in dark back alleys have seen a rise in business from programmers this week. When asked why he suddenly started visiting eating establishments where most of the food that is served was scurrying about fifteen minutes prior to being served, one programmer responded, "I'm trying to get Shanghaied! What do you think? Gosh!"
Freedom is a quaint bourgeois notion. These people need to be led. Their entire culture is based on the hive mentality. Brutal bastards. Strange thing is they make such bloody good cameras.
What you don't seem to realize is that politics define what 'practical matters' will eventually be.
"Do no Evil" has become "See no Evil".
...the other big Google news of the week on Slashdot where they announce that they are pulling their web accelerator.
3 75,39197931,00.htm
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/security/0,39020
Neither is it fascist, it's the polar opposite, communist.
Calling yourself communist doesn't make you communist. You actually have to *practice* communism, a feat which no government has ever come close to at any time in human history.
China is a fascism, an autocratic authority ruling over an economic mix of capitalism and state-owned industry. It's the very definition of fascism.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Google is an expert on censorship...the Chinese market will smothly fit into their U.S. agenda. See:I CLE_ID=44105
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ART
I'd rather not have them live next door. Their curry smells real bad, and they ignore bathing for weeks.
Although CCP is evil,it is no more evil than what rusia Maffia and magnates have done when ideology of WEST went in,even not more evil than what US have done in iraq and Afghanistan. this is why common chinese abide CCP's evil(they know,but they abide,chinese are not fool or blind),they dont want to become another russia or iraq,Afghanistan,or those africa democratic country