Haiku's Window Manager

Professor Cool Linux writes "From IsComputerOn: Adi, over at DarkWyrm's page, has posted a progress status of Haiku's window manager, and the good news is that it's almost complete. They have, for example, support for normal, floating app/subset/all and model app/subset/all windows, as well as workspace support. All that's left are smaller things like not allowing windows to be moved or resized and focus follow mouse (among a few others) remain to be implemented still. But along with the status report, Adi was kind enough to post a plethora of screenshots, showing many examples of how the window manager is working. Full report and the screenshots."

Comments

Not impressive

[sofar]

mod me troll but I fail to see what's so impressive about this. Anyone care to explain?

Re:Not impressive

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

I was going to ask the same thing.

Do we need a /. post for every project on sourceforge?

Re:Not impressive

[FidelCatsro]

Well , its an open implementation of the beOS windows manager for haiku which has steadily been moving forward for the past while.
I feel the error was in focusing on the window manager alone , though for those with intrest in haiku this is big news.

It means we are one step closer to having a beOS-alike which is both free and open

Personaly i am not that big a fan of BeOS but its still intresting to see how the project is progressing. If haiku delivers all of its goals it will make a nice easy alternative desktop OS for us to consider using.
Variety as they say is the spice of life

ok, the point being?

[override11]

This looks almost exactly like any other window manager... only its not complete. I assume when it IS complete, it will look completely the same as another one? Isnt this what makes Linux so hard to work with some times, is that code has to be 'ported' to different window managers? Why dont these projects just work together and make one really good window manager instead of several 'pretty' good ones?

Re:ok, the point being?

[PinkX]

Except that this is not a window manager for Linux/X11. It's a window manager for OpenBeOs which follows closely the BeBook specifications for the behaviour of such a program, which itself is just a part of the BeOS application server ('app_server').

What makes this so interesting is that it doesn't share any portion of code with the original BeOS WM, instead it's a full reimplementation of it from scratch (as most of the rest of the OpenBeOs project).

Re:ok, the point being?

[MrHanky]

Isnt this what makes Linux so hard to work with some times, is that code has to be 'ported' to different window managers?

No. You can run the same apps in WindowMaker, IceWM, Gnome, KDE, and so on. No porting required. This is well known, and the fact that you've been modded up just shows that Slashdot is no longer a nerd site. Why do you come here anyway?

This windowmanager, however, isn't for X11 and Linux, it's for Haiku, the BeOS clone. So in this case, X11 apps would need porting to BeOS to be used there.

Why dont these projects just work together and make one really good window manager instead of several 'pretty' good ones?

Some people prefer BeOS to Linux. It would be rather strange if they decided to scrap their clone project to contribute to KDE instead, when the goals of the KDE project are radically different. Likewise, a lot of people prefer KDE to BeOS, and they obviously see no point in contributing to Haiku. You do understand that if people with very different goals tried to make a project together, it wouldn't work at all?

Re:ok, the point being?

[Otter]

Isnt this what makes Linux so hard to work with some times, is that code has to be 'ported' to different window managers?

To answer your question more politely than the other guy did -- no, with some very minor exceptions, all applications can be run in any window manager. You're thinking of graphics toolkits (like the Qt and Gtk toolikts underlying KDE and GNOME), or maybe the communications mechanisms of desktop applications, but the real "window managers" don't have those issues.

Anyway, as the angry guy pointed out, the news here is that this is a Be-compliant WM for OpenBeOS. It has nothing to do with Linux.

Re:ok, the point being?

[Blnky]

Besides the fact that it is a window manager for BeOS, are you going to agree with me on exactly what makes a "really good window manager"?. Will you be lock step with me in every little nuance and minor feature? Will you absolutly agree with me on everything that should not be included in this ultimate window manager? No? Ok, now you know why there won't ever be "the one window manager". Until you are willing to give up all of your own personal opinions and blindly follow someone else, whom you have never met, there can never be just one project of any type. There will always be a different one for you than the one for me. Enjoy that freedom to be different. It's a good thing. :)

Re:ok, the point being?

[david.given]

This looks almost exactly like any other window manager... only its not complete. I assume when it IS complete, it will look completely the same as another one? Isnt this what makes Linux so hard to work with some times, is that code has to be 'ported' to different window managers? Why dont these projects just work together and make one really good window manager instead of several 'pretty' good ones?

This isn't Linux. Haiku's a BeOS reimplementation. Having a working window manager is a major milestone towards having a usable system, which is why this is news.

Re:ok, the point being?

[override11]

ahhh, got ya. I thought it looked rather like BEOS! =)

Re:ok, the point being?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to add another point that was missed on why the WMs don't all get together to make one WM, but I'll post anonymously since it is offtopic.

*nix has millions of users, and thousands of developers. All of these people have different ideas of what a window manager should look like, and how it should function. Some people need certain functionality, some people need certain features (such as being light weight). You will never get all these people to agree, and there's no reason you ever should.

Variety is a strength, not a weakness.

Welcome the BE

[oboylet]

It's not impressive. There's no interesting modern eye candy a la Expose or Kompose, etc. Does Haiku's window manager offer anything other than win 95-era usability? Nope.

It's irrational Be-worship. It's rampant in some corners of the internet. We're usually spared from it here, but not always.

This is pure OSNews.com fodder.

News for nerds maybe ... hardly stuff that matters.

Re:Welcome the BE

[Nutcase]

Spoken like someone who has never actually used BeOS's interface. Good Show.

Anyone who HAS used the interface would realize its incredibly internally consistent, it is faster than just about anything out there at the moment, and that many of it's features are just now starting to be replicated by its competitors (i.e. I was using "spotlight" in 1999 on a BeBox.)

Sure, it doesn't have the drop shadows (yet). But I have yet to see a drop shadow help me work faster. And this UI doesn't need an accelerated video card to work.

The real value of this post is showing how far the haiku project has come. This is a concrete demonstration of core technologies being replaced in an end-user recognizable manner. This isn't a prefs panel, or a terminal based booting kernel screenshot. It's something BeOS users (and former-users) can see and realize that the haiku project isn't a pipe dream... it is happening, and it is working. One day (in the hopefully near future) there will be a fully open source BeOS. Thats when it gets really interesting.

Re:Welcome the BE

[oboylet]

Spoken like a true fanboy.

I played with BeOS in 99. Admittedly not extensively. But I did give the free edition a whirl. Sure there was cool stuff there to see, but your assumption that I never actually used it is pretty arrogant, don't you think?

I was rooting for Be back in the day, too. I thought the BeBox was one amazingly cool little machine. And if the management at Be hadn't been so borish, they might have been bought out by Apple in the end. Too bad they didn't take the deal that was offered them at the time.

The whole point is, both in my dissing Haiku and in the Be fanboy's dream world, we're always talking in hypotheticals. What if things turned out differently, etc. Or, to quote you "One day ... there will be a fully open source BeOS. That's when it gets really interesting."

"The real value of this post is showing how far the haiku project has come" What you left out was "...in recreating a 5 year old OS in a world where desktop technology has come a long long way in the meantime." Again, where are the Expose/Kompose features? You sneer at drop shadows, but they're more than just eye candy. They help the user determine which windows are on top of which others.

Things like this really do great on my nerves. People really should wake up and smell reality. Even if Zeta/Haiku turns into a usable OS, where's the support? Software? Will my obscure PCI cards work? I'd only ever play with Haiku on a spare box made of odds and ends anyway. Precisely the sort of things that won't be supported. Sadly, isn't it?

Sure, you can point to this or that piece of software that's available, but what's missing is choice. It's not enough for me that Mozilla might exist for a platform, I want Opera, and a KHTML-based browser. Call me picky or even scatterbrained but I like to use one app one day and another the next. I might use Mail.app today and Thunderbird or Evolution tomorrow. This sort of variety is completely lacking in Be.

If you want to spend your time with one of the efforts to ressurrect Be, I won't stop you, but don't claim that Haiku version 1.0 is genuine news that belongs on /.

Re:Welcome the BE

[Nutcase]

Spoken like a true fanboy.

Not quite. I was a fan back in the day. Ran BeOS while at university (dual boot as needed) and enjoyed it. Now I run mac, windows, and am working on linux from scratch with a ubuntu base. I haven't run BeOS in years, and don't have a box that boots it.

I played with BeOS in 99. Admittedly not extensively. But I did give the free edition a whirl. Sure there was cool stuff there to see, but your assumption that I never actually used it is pretty arrogant, don't you think?

You gave the free edition a whirl, and think this qualifies you to judge it's interface? Like all good interfaces, it isn't the eye candy that makes it. It's the subtle details you find as you live in it day in and day out. It's the cascading move/copy menus in the context of every file. It's the way the mouse interfaces with the widgets. Things you don't get from giving the "free" version a whirl. It's the same reason the OS X interface looks and feels better than a themed windows or linux interface that looks the same - the details and movement.

I was rooting for Be back in the day, too. I thought the BeBox was one amazingly cool little machine. And if the management at Be hadn't been so borish, they might have been bought out by Apple in the end. Too bad they didn't take the deal that was offered them at the time.

This discussion isn't about the company. It's about the value of the BeOS window manager, in it's open source form. More specifically, about whether it's newsworthy.

The whole point is, both in my dissing Haiku and in the Be fanboy's dream world, we're always talking in hypotheticals. What if things turned out differently, etc. Or, to quote you "One day ... there will be a fully open source BeOS. That's when it gets really interesting."

The value of this post is that it ISNT a hypothetical. This is working code. It's not some dreamworld. Thats why it's newsworthy.

"The real value of this post is showing how far the haiku project has come" What you left out was "...in recreating a 5 year old OS in a world where desktop technology has come a long long way in the meantime."

I don't think desktop technology has come that far. Again, spotlight and windows searching are the big buzzwords these days. BeOS already has it, and does it better. Sure, the display aspects (opengl shadows, etc) are better.

Again, where are the Expose/Kompose features? You sneer at drop shadows, but they're more than just eye candy. They help the user determine which windows are on top of which others.

Drop shadows provide visual indication. So does the fact that window borders are yellow on the active window, and the entire unactive window is grayed out. There aren't drop shadows in XP by default, and the vast majority of the world manages to figure out what window is what just fine. Sure, drop shadows have a slight benefit to an already established method. But their main benefit is eye candy. Of course, on the mac where there often arent window borders to utilize, i suppose they have more of an effect.

Things like this really do great on my nerves. People really should wake up and smell reality. Even if Zeta/Haiku turns into a usable OS, where's the support? Software? Will my obscure PCI cards work? I'd only ever play with Haiku on a spare box made of odds and ends anyway. Precisely the sort of things that won't be supported. Sadly, isn't it?

Well, there are accellerated 3d nvidia drivers written, a ton of sound drivers in place, etc. Bebits.com can get you to most of them. I'm sure there will be holes, and they will be filled. Linux/BSD/Whatever have the same driver issues. They solved them. The code is out there. So will Haiku.

Sure, you can point to this or that piece of software that's available, but what's missing is choice. It's not enough for me that Mozilla might exist for a platform, I want Opera, and a KHTML-based browser. Call me picky or ev

Re:Welcome the BE

[Anonymous Coward]

A UI without drop shadows? It's incredibly fast and efficient? That sounds to me an awful lot like Window Maker, Openbox, Fluxbox, BlackBox, aewm, flwm, and about 1/2 million other window managers already available for Linux.

Re:Welcome the BE

[Nutcase]

Right. Only this is a window manager for Haiku, an open source BeOS replacement. It has absolutely nothing to do with Linux.

Also, withouth drop shadows != ugly. Some of the ones you list, while possibly not ugly, certainly dont win awards for looks. Haiku doesn't either, but it's pleasing enough that it's theme and colors have been cloned in most skinnable things that i've seen.

Re:Welcome the BE

[cahiha]

Anyone who HAS used the interface would realize its incredibly internally consistent, it is faster than just about anything out there at the moment,

It's not hard to be "internally consistent" if an OS has hardly any users and hardly any applications.

and that many of it's features are just now starting to be replicated by its competitors (i.e. I was using "spotlight" in 1999 on a BeBox.)

You make it sound as if BeOS actually innovated; it did not. Neither its file system, nor its interface, nor its architecture were in any way novel. BeOS was just another big C++ hack.

One day (in the hopefully near future) there will be a fully open source BeOS. Thats when it gets really interesting.

Just what we need: another C++-based GUI. Come on, don't these people have anything better to do than to write a clone of a poor copy of 25 year old technology?

Bugs...

[Apiakun]

I can't tell if he's trying to be humorous, or not. From his site:

"only small stuff like not allowing windows to be moved or resized ... remain to be implemented"

That's small stuff?

Re:Bugs...

[michaelarnauts]

he said "not", so all windows can be resized and moved, but he has to implement is so that some can't.

Re:Bugs...

[qbwiz]

I think the problem is that it lets every window move or be resized, whereas some want to disallow it. Those windows are a pretty small minority, though, so it isn't much of a problem. At least, that's the way I interpret it.

It would have been nice

[wowbagger]

It would have been nice if the article had some background information on Haiku - what it was, why they aren't using a window manager that already has the features they just implemented, and so on.

Even if the story submitter did not include such information, would it have been so hard for the *cough*editor*cough* to have added that information at the end of the post?

Or was the idea of adding simple information (as opposed to inflammatory commentary) unappealing to the *cough*editors*cough*?

For those who dont know

[Lord Bitman]

What is this? Why should I care? News for nerds, stuff that matters. So, why does it matter? I've never heard of this, so by itself "hey look, we've implimented the most basic window manager possible" isnt all that impressive. Are they doing this on a toaster or something?
I implimented rollups in my window manager a few months ago, should I post a slashdot story about it?

Re:For those who dont know

[Lord Bitman]

That wasnt "insightful", it was a fucking question. God damn, moderators are stupid. I'm not trying to be clever, I want to know why I should care. Anyone who knows, please answer.

Re:For those who dont know

[Lord Bitman]

Oh, yes, I'm definately baiting myself so that I'll flame myself.

WOW! Holy Crap!

[clambake]

It's like every other windows manager out there... but more sucky out of the box!

Redundant Effort

[schestowitz]

If building upon existing work and developing further is the aim of software development, why does Haiku matter? FVWM is another such futile window manager... and we all know what that 'F' could (and possibly does) stand for.

Re:WOW! Holy Crap!

[tomstdenis]

icewm, gnome or KDE.

That covers basically all the useful WMs out there.

Icewm is very light, fast and works well. It's good for memory constrained devices [laptops, media boxes, etc].

Gnome is larger but more "gui user" friendly. Useful for desktops/laptops.

KDE is larger still but essentially wraps the entire desktop in a nice shiny GUI [it's filemanager is way better than Nautilus for example].

All the other WMs out there are rehashes of the same.

Tom

MOD PARENT INTO OBLIVION

[Anonymous Coward]

-1, Absolutely Stinking Clueless

*WM for Be, not for *nix/X11
*X11 WMs are transparent to apps
*Development can't work in such a way that you herd all the developers into working together on the One True WM

hmmm

[GypC]

Wow. I haven't been to Slashdot much in the last few months. The idiotic responses to this article and their subsequent positive moderations begs the question: Where did all the nerds go?

Are you ready?

[hey!]

Same over at K5.

Reports are filtering in from all over the world of network ops centers being suddenly bereft of key personnel; development workstations left mysteriously unmanned in the middle of pair coding sessions, tech support calls suddenly going silent. Vending machine candy and soda sales have crashed, and coffee futures are set to take a major tumble.

All of which raises the question:

Are you ready... for the Rupture?

linux.slashdot.org

[tveidt]

Was there a need to post this on linux.slashdot.org? Just to reduce the general confusion. Can't even blame people for not RTFA, because neither the first nor the 2nd link mention anything about BeOS.

obligatory haiku about haiku

[horati0]

haiku looks cool
seems like potential is there
FOR ME TO POOP ON

Linux?

[berck]

How does Haiku's window manager have ANYTHING to do with Linux at all? Hello?

Re:WOW! Holy Crap!

[Anonymous Coward]

icewm, gnome or KDE.

That covers basically all the useful WMs out there.

All the other WMs out there are rehashes of the same.

Umm... Enlightenment??? Not at all a rehash of any of those three. e16 was years ahead of its time, and e17 will be years ahead of its time when it is finished.

Re:WOW! Holy Crap!

[tomstdenis]

Guess I was giving a loaded statement... that said ... most of what I do uses a shell. All I really ask of a WM is be able to have multiple desktops, minimize/maximize windows and not suck.

Only big reason I use gnome is occasionally it's nice to browse an icon list of PDFs instead of trying to tab complete a god-forsaken PLC'ed PDF name...

Tom

Re:WOW! Holy Crap!

[gnovos]

e17 will be years ahead of its time when it is finished.

Unfortunately, e17's *release* will be, at some point during those "years ahead of it's time too", so it'll actually be right on time.