The Future of Linux on Laptops

katie_york writes "CoolTechZone discusses the future of Linux on laptops after HP and Ubuntu's recent announcement. 'What would be even more exciting for Linux is if other OEMs, similar to HP, took the same approach by partnering with selected distributions of consumer friendly Linux and started offering an alternative not only in third world regions, but also in the United States. In addition to that, support for Linux on the desktop side of things would be just as welcomed.'"

Comments

Priceless...

[TripMaster Monkey]

From TFA:

After all is said and done, I have to wonder if anyone from Redmond, Washington had any input towards HP's decision to offer Linux to the "3rd World" and exclude the U.S. (the richest Windows market) from it's[sic] Linux program. I would certainly like to believe not. Of course, we all love a good conspiracy theory now, don't we?

Wow...sounds like Gundeep Hora wrote this article with Slashdot specifically in mind...

^_^

Re:Priceless...

[kesuki]

Don't worry, Wal-mart will never buckle down to pressure from Microsoft. They will continue to sell PCs w/out OSes, and/or w/Linux. Yeah, many people hate Wal-Mart for the pressure they put on vendors/etc... But what other main stream OEM will ship PCs without an OS/ with Linux, and not charge you for a copy of windows? No, Apple doesn't count!

So if you want a Linux Laptop, in the US right now, you've got wal-mart, and some small computer shops that probably have the license cost for windows included in your purchase price.

Re:Priceless...

[DenDave]

Indeed, although I must add that, with the exception of the airport extreme, the iBook from apple is extremely well supported with a variety of Linux distributions. Most noteworthy being Yellowdog who also provides 1st rate vendor warranty and support.

Re:Priceless...

[stm2]

Another option.

Re:Priceless...

[Anonymous Coward]

I must add that, with the exception of the airport extreme, the iBook from apple is extremely well supported with a variety of Linux distributions.

True but irrelevant. It's true that iBooks don't come with Windows preinstalled, but you can't buy them without OS X preinstalled. Which isn't a bad thing - OS X is a lovely OS. But if all you want the hardware for is to run Linux, it seems a bit of a waste to pay for OS X and then not use it.

Linux, installation and ease of use

[chrysalis]

Installing Linux of a laptop is easy, especially with ditributions like Ubuntu. The fact that Linux comes preinstalled or not with the hardware doesn't matter IMHO.

But once Linux is installed, the difficult part is to *use* it. Installing new software and making it work properly is not trivial. Even with GUIs like Synaptic, using any Linux distribution requires Unix knowledge. You can't use (upgrade/customize/etc) a Linux workstation without using a terminal for instance.

So for a newbie or for my parents, I'd never recommend a laptop running Linux (preinstalled or not).

Re:Linux, installation and ease of use

[NickFortune]

Installing Linux of a laptop is easy, especially with ditributions like Ubuntu. The fact that Linux comes preinstalled or not with the hardware doesn't matter IMHO.

Umm... you think so? Linux on the desktop is easy. Laptops can be challenging. Unless of course you mean just getting the binaries onto the disk. Even then its not always straightforward. I 'll always remember the fun I had once getting anaconda to work with some crappy SiS onbard graphics chip

Lapops use more custom components and working drivers are harder to come by. I'm writing this on a Tosh Satellite M30 which works perfectly - but then I did some careful reading ahead of my purchase. Even then, getting the wifi up and running was an adventure.

On the other hand, if it comes pre-installed, we should expect a decent default configuration. If not, it seems reasonable to complain to the manufacturer.

That said, I can see where you're coming from. Hey, I don't even duspute your conclusion.

Re:Linux, installation and ease of use

[guruevi]

Give a perfectly working dualbooting system to a total n00b. Someone who doesn't have a clue what a computer is or what internet is. I did it twice already (to my uncle (+/- 35y) and an old friend (+/- 55y)) and I got an amazing result: they liked Linux better because it was: Easier to use, more stable and more logical built-up. And all their software was already there while with Windows they still had to install everything. Of course you are not going to give them root access nor are they ever going to figure out how to run MS Office with Crossover but such people can not install anything, even not under Windows, they do not have a clue what the address bar in a browser is for or what the headers of an e-mail are for. Their internet starts with their startpage and everything not found in google is taboo.

Re:Linux, installation and ease of use

[Anonymous Coward]

"I have an HP laptio (Pavilioin ZV5000) and I have tried several Linux distros..."

Haha.

I feel for you. I have the exact same laptop (the Pentium 4 2.8 one, not the AMD64 one). Anyways, the wireless drivers drove me nuts for an hour, but I was surprised to see that Ubuntu came with ndiswrapper already compiled into the kernel which saved me a far bit of time.

About the sound in Ubuntu (I assume it will probably be the same deal with Mandrake?). I don't know why you're having a hard time to get it working. I'm using 5.04 and sound worked for me (using ALSA); hell, it even worked with my Griffin USB iMic. The trick to get the headphones to work is to open the Volume Control panel (in GNOME), select the second tab in the dialog (Input, or something like that?) and slide the first slider all the way down to the bottom then go back to the first tab and slide that slider all the way up (or to a "decent" level). The speaker icon in the taskbar will show that the speakers are muted (and they are), but your headphones will now work. If you want the speakers to work, simply reverse the process.

I wish I could have gave you a more definite answer, but I'm not sitting infront of my laptop right now. :/

Good luck, though.

Re:Linux, installation and ease of use

[jusdisgi]

Well, despite the fact that I disagree with the basic point of his post, I must agree that I've not yet setup a Linux system "all the way to where granny can use it" without having to drop to the shell. Now, I think that's probably ok...I'd rather use the terminal anyway, and once I get done, she doesn't have to. That's the stem of my disagreement with the GP; I *can* setup a box so that the end-user doesn't need the shell....I just have to use it to get them there. HP should be able to do the same...although it remains to be seen whether they will.

But if you're looking for specifics, and keeping Ubuntu-centric here, head down to http://ubuntuguide.org/ ...don't get me wrong, I'm happy that the site is there. But that's about 50 examples of initial-configuration tasks that require the shell. In my opinion, every one of those tasks should either a)be done automatically (without asking) when you install the OS, b)be installation options, or c)be simple, no-terminal-needed operations.

If I only got to pick one thing for Ubuntu to do at install time that it's not doing now, it would be to give the user an appropriate /etc/apt/sources.list file.

Hope that helps; you're right, there definitely is a *lot* of usability work going on these days. I started with RedHat 5.2, and we've come a long, long way.

Upgrades?

[bmalek]

I agree that this is the way to do it (making sure all the hardware works with Linux), however what happens when somone wants to do an upgrade down the road? Chances are they are going to have to choose from a very small list (by comparison to a Windows machine) of upgrades that now work with their version of Linux.

Now some of you may not think this is a bad thing, but I can see where it could be heading... Want that new upgrade? Send your machine back to HP and for $400 you can have this $100 piece of hardware because you have no choices and we can charge you whatver we want! Profit margins here we come...

Are we really still having problems?

[garcia]

Apparently, HP is determined to make certain models work 100 percent with Ubuntu.

Is Linux still suffering from incompatible hardware in computers these days? I haven't purchased a laptop since 1996 but it ran Linux (I did have to use AcceleratedX because at the time XFree didn't support the video card chipset) just fine.

Are we still having serious problems with people not being able to use their computers 100% with Linux or are they talking about "out-of-the-box" with no configuration necessary?

Re:Are we really still having problems?

[mytec]

Are we still having serious problems with people not being able to use their computers 100% with Linux or are they talking about "out-of-the-box" with no configuration necessary?

I've had some experience with two different Toshiba laptops (which I think are great) and problems have been:

• Hibernation/Sleep
• Sound
• Wireless
• Grapics required a lot of configuring

I've seen enough messages from developers addressing some or all of the issues. The point being they are real problems to varying degrees for some people. I think Ubuntu is working really hard to address hiberation issues and I applaud them for that.

In my case it is a mix of being able to use purchased hardware 100% and having no out-of-the-box configuration. For some reason expecting/wanting either gets you flamed on /.. I don't understand why. The laptop came with a DVD that puts the OS and other apps (generally crap) onto the hardware with no configuration other than the required network settings, account settings, etc. If I move to another OS, why is having the same expectation silly?

Whatever

[Otter]

Anyone who was using Linux in 1999 remembers when there were announcements like this every day. (Dell partners with Red Hat! Compaq partners with Ximian! Dell partners with Eazel! Compaq partners with Red Hat!) None of it amounted to anything.

This is good news, I guess, and making something work with free drivers on any one distribution makes it work (with some kicking and swearing, anyway) on all Linux. But I'm not throwing a party just yet...

Re:Accurate Article

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

First world is a misnomer.

It was originally like this:

Old World: Europe
New World: US/Canada
Third World: the rest

The true first world would be Europe.

Of course, the above is not very PC or useful now.

I will buy

[fimbulvetr]

While I've never been an HP fan, I'd be inclined to purchase one of these after reading the initial reviews.
I'd be especially interested if it had an AMD processor.
HP had one of the best laptop repair policies I've ever seen. Back when I did HP warranty work, one could send in a (broken for just about any reason) laptop, and pay a flat $400 fee for getting it fixed. While that may sound expensive, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than paying for the parts + labor for an LCD replacement.
Additionally, it seems HP doesn't hide behind the "bad pixels are not a defect" policy. While some manufactures (*Cough* Apple, Dell) require that your LCD has at least 20+ bad pixels before they fix, I've seen HP repair laptops with 5 or less.

Obviously, this is anecdotal, and their policies may have changed.

Re:I would be happy with a OS Free system

[jzono1]

Not possible due to the demands by m$, one _CAN NOT_ sell computers without an os if one is at the same time selling m$ stuff.

Oh, the irony!

[heffel]

I just got an HP ZV6000 series laptop, featuring an AMD 64 processor. I got it with all the intention of installing Ubuntu for AMD 64 on it.

To say that the laptop is not linux friendly is an understatement. There are no drivers for the video card, you can get X.org sort of working with the vesa driver. The touchpad is partially supported, scroll bar doesn't work and you need to resort to tricks to make it work (remove and readd the psmouse module).

I installed the latest Java development kit for Linux AMD 64 on it, followed by Eclipse. Eclipse keeps crashing every few minutes.

Although my intention was to run Ubuntu on this laptop, I find myself booting to Windows XP home all the time just to get some work done.

Re:Oh, the irony!

[heffel]

Let me guess - ATI chipset?

You got it.

Another question - are you comparing with the 64bit version of XP? You're not are you?

Nope, just the crappy 32 bit version of XP home that came preinstalled with the laptop (and that I never intended to use).

Have you tried 32bit Linux on it? I would put money on it working a lot better.

I'm thinking about it and might give it a shot. It will probably help with Eclipse crashing, I somehow doubt the video card and touchpad will work to its full potential.

I mean for God's sake, what advantage are you expecting from 64bit support on a laptop?

Blazing fast compilation times? Who knows, I dropped my old laptop and that was the end of it (I was happily running Ubuntu 32 bit on it) and needed to get a new one, I got a good deal on this one.

Planning on installing more than 4GB of RAM are you?

Maybe someday I will.

Try comparing like for like.

I don't have access to a 64 bit version of windows, don't know how much one would set me back, I hope the fact that I'm using windows now is temporary, while linux distros get better support for the hardware on the laptop.

And seek help for your masochist tendencies.

I'm working on it.

Re:The world

[LWATCDR]

You should learn to be more forgiving. When I went to UK for work it was much the same way. The people I worked with where shocked that I would want to go to the Royal Art Museum and the Imperial War Museum for fun. They kept asking me questions like, do you know who Nelson was and why his statue was in Trafalgar Square.
Everyone is is trapped by their world viewpoint and the media. Most people from the EU seem to think that people in the US are as dumb as our sitcoms. Of course the UK if full of quirky people drinking tea and everybody in Australia likes to play with snakes.
My question is what are the second world regions?

Linux as a Gaming Console

[stagmeister]

If linux had better graphics support, I think that linux would take off more - on both the laptop and desktop - as a development platform for console-style games. Think of it this way: If you are developing a game, you currently have to develop the game for windows, mac, linux, etc. if you want it to be on all platforms. However if you were to use a live linux distro as the base for a game, you could make it so that all you have to do is restart your computer, put the CD in your drive and the game runs automatically - no need to mess with installing it on the hard drive, no need to have to port the game, nothing! It will run on any processor that it is designed for that has a fast cd-rom drive (which is pretty much all computers these days), and with network support built into linux you could very easily set it up to connect to the internet and get to a gaming server for lan parties or just regular internet play.

Oh, yes we are!

[Graabein]

(I originally wrote this yesterday in a comment to the article "Mad has hell, switching to Mac", but it's even more topical here so I'll repost:)

> He doesn't want to bother with packaging, experimental drivers,
> non-ability to sleep, and other issues that come with Linux (especially
> on laptops). Plus, Macs can run a lot of Officially Supported
> Microsoft software that the industry feels it needs in order to be compatible.

Yup, that just about sums up my experience too. My company really tried our best to standardize on Linux, but since most employees need laptops we had to give up and buy Macs instead.

We put a lot of work into getting drivers for the laptops and making stuff work right, but in the end it just wasn't worth it. Stuff like ATI graphics adapters that either worked with dual screens, say for projector use, with the X.org driver or worked with accelerated 3D graphics with the ATI driver, but not both.

Or the lack of stable drivers for the Intel Pro WLAN 2200 Mini PCI WiFi cards which also had to be manually reinstalled after each kernel upgrade.

As you said, the non-ability to sleep was also a major issue.

This isn't really a problem with Linux, it's more a problem with non-open and proprietary hardware, hardware that changes constantly and comes in a pre-packaged form wich you can't influence (laptops come with everything soldered on the mainboard, you have to take or leave the whole package). We never had a problem with our whitebox dektop PCs, nor with our servers of course.

We didn't have much problems on the application side of things by the way. People adjusted quickly to OpenOffice and Thunderbird (for email) and of course loved Firefox, everything else we do we host on the web. The only grumble we had was the CEO who claimed there really wasn't a proper Linux replacement for Microsoft Project available anywhere, open or closed source.

In the end we came to the conclusion that the TCO for Linux on laptops was too high, but on desktops it was mosly a no-brainer. Had we been able to use desktops all over the firm we would have stayed an all-Linux shop for sure.

So why Mac laptops, why not Windows? That was a no-brainer as well. We already run Linux (and OpenBSD) on everything else in the company, Mac OS X is also *nix-based and based on open source projects so the skillset we have is applicable. But the clincher was security and TCO. Macs are by far the cheapest laptops to own and operate in a corporate environment, because they a) Just Work with the hardware and b) the OS is secure from the ground up.

Add to that the fact that Mac OS X plays nice with everyone else, especially in a *nix environment, and the fact that we can still run OpenOffice (NeoOffice/J), Thunderbird and Firefox and we're all set. We can even run Microsoft Office if we want.

This is a win-win situation, the users are happy because they have tools that work all the time and we IT guys are happy for the same reason.

The only downside is the fact that we now have to rely on only one supplier of laptops and have to pay their, frankly, inflated prices. In the end we decided that there is really nothing wrong with rewarding a supplier for making an excellent product, it's not their fault that the competition stinks. Anyway, it's not like we had a huge array of choices in the PC laptop marketplace either, once we started eliminating ATI graphics adapters, Intel WiFi chips and other problematic components from vendors who won't allow proper Linux drivers to be made.

The field of remaining, workable laptops was depressingly small, and the fact that we couldn't rely on any of the models being available for any amount of time was unacceptable.

Apple gets our money from now on.

(I'd like to add that if HP will commit to making laptops that will only use hardware that Just Works with Linux (any distro, we happen to use Fedora), we'll consider purchasing their laptops as well as Apple's.)

Question

[lildogie]

> one _CAN NOT_ sell computers without an os
> if one is at the same time selling m$ stuff.

Why is this not illegal under anti-trust law?

Nokia's new tablet runs on Linux

[sonamchauhan]

FYI/
Nokia's new 770 Tablet - Debian Linux, X, Gnome, Opera, 802.11g, Bluetooth 1.2, 800x400 widescreen, handheld form factor - supposed to go on sale for US$ 350 within 4 months. (No phone included.)

Nokia's site for open-source components for the 770: Maemo.org has Linux sources and application development resources.

Developer's FAQ PDF here