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Developers Want Fatter Paychecks
CodeBuster writes "The programmers, artists, and other creative professions that work in the games industry have taken a rather dim view on paying royalties to Hollywood voice-over actors, according to the article 'Coders Want Fatter Paychecks Too' written by Wired News. From the article: 'The video-game industry's geek workforce has something to say to Hollywood actors: Get in line for your share of the industry's profits.'"
You think that's amazing? I'm in no way associated with the gaming industry, and I want more money too!
I don't see a story here.
"Yeah -- $275 an hour would be a huge amount if actors did that kind of work several times a week," said [Wil] Wheaton, "but the average, working-class actor is lucky to get four of those jobs a year."
Dude, if you're unsatisfied with getting $2200 a year for doing eight hours of voice-over work in a year, maybe you need another job. Take some other acting gigs, drive a truck for UPS, learn a trade. Hell, flip burgers if you're that hard up for cash.
Or, better yet, learn to program, learn to work on sound effects, learn to do 3-D art, learn to do game level design. Then get a real 60-hour-a-week job in the games industry and see how the other half lives. Maybe then you'll realize you should be asking the programmers, artists, etc. to go on strike.
Look, I'm sorry, but you are a programmer. Or a tech support guy. Or a project manager. Or a level designer. Whatever it is, you are producing a product. You are not a performer. In careers based on performing for people, the performer is typically the big earner above the director, manager, producer, etc.
In the rest of the business world, the guys who do the grunt work - writing code, creating levels, designing the game box, writing the game's dialogue - make peanuts and the guys who run the company and sit in conferences and board meetings and take porches to work and spend their weekends on yachts get the big bucks.
These primadonnas need to get it through their skull that they're code monkeys. They're just cubicle workers punching away on a keyboard like everyone else in the world - except the product they're creating is more fun than what most others create.
Why should some guy who writes netcode for a videogame be paid any more or differently than some guy who writes the IMAP module for a mailserver or QAs an application server or is the product manager for some sort of enterprise collaboration software? They're doing essentially the same game.
Remember, you ARE NOT A PERFORMER. You ARE NOT AN ARTIST. You ARE NOT PART OF HOLLYWOOD.
YOU are replaceable. There are a million code monkeys and always one willing to work for less than you who won't complain so much. However, there are NOT 10 Jim Careys. There are NOT 10 Vin Diesels. There are NOT 10 Elijah Woods. THEY can not be replaced, except by really poor voice actors.
Wait, so the most replacable assets involved in building a game want more money? Skilled actors are rare. Skilled coders are not.
Programmers are easy to replace. People whose job requires creativity and who can do it successfully are a bit harder to come by.
So, go ahead, coders. Hasten your job being shipped to India by unrealistically demaning more money.
Are they asking for simply a larger paycheck? Or are they asking for a royalty-like system in which the extra checks they get depend on the game sales? The article was somewhat light on that point.
If it were the second one, I think it would be a great idea. If a game is fun and sells well, the coders get an extra bit of green to take home.
If it's the first one, well then that's OK too. I hope to break into the game industry once I'm done with college, and the more game programmers earn once I reach that point, the better (for me, anyway..)
I took a game development class last semester. I learned that programming games is HARD work. Say you're just doing the AI part of the game. Not only do you have to make enemies act semi-intelligently, and naturally, but you have to do it using only so much CPU and memory. In fact, this is true for just about any aspect of the game. To do be able to do this you have know your programming language like the back of your hand, and be effecient as hell. Killing bugs was a total pain in the ass too. Especially when some of the other coder's on my team created some shitty-ass code.
That's another thing: people skills. If you can't work well in a team, then forget game development. You have to be in constant communication with the artists and other programmers if you want the game to come together at all.
I really enjoyed programming for games. But when we had to turn in our game...the game wasn't working the way I wanted it too, and I really stressed out. I got sick the next day...don't know if it's entirely due to the stress but I'm sure it had to do something with it.
After taking that class, I realized that alot of these developers are incredibly smart and creative. It's easy to judge games when you're just playing them. But after taking that cass, I learned to appreciate what these guys can do.
Abaddon: An Xbox 360 Indie game
Omg, I'm like level 60 in C Programming, and level 48 in Java Programming! I finished all the quests, and killed the boss, but this lewt aint phat enough for my twinked items, lol!
I want phatter lewt!
Sadly, as others have posted already, most coders can be easily replaced by local or, increasingly, overseas workers. The creative jobs are a bit more secure. But for the ultimate in security (and reward and risk!), start your own company! People in the games industry who really want a piece of the profits are best served by getting their buddies together and forming their own companies. This has been done before, and I think remains one of the best options for those wanting a bigger piece of the profits that come from their hard work. Granted, noncompete clauses and nda issues may need to be resolved, but an entrepreneural path is the surest way to sink or swim based on your own hard work.
Outside of starting a company, forming a union is the only other alternative. But even with massive overseas outsourcing and a general erosion of wages in the IT industry (at least at the coding level), unionization simply has not been embraced in the tech fields.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
I think Seumas has overestimated the number of "code-monkeys" out there that have the talent to make "videogames." Sure an Pakistani programmer could probably make a good spreadsheet/database program, but would he be able to make a good videogame, let alone a commercial videogame? Not it a million years.
Hollywood is has finally woken up and realized that the videogame industry is almost as big as them, and will surpass them very soon and they want to apply their flawed, old, outdated, business model to the game industry and it simply won't stick.
So the fuck what if we can't use Wil Wheaton's awesome voice over talent anymore? There are a million and one more talents actors out there that would kill for any opportunity to make a buck and get noticed.
Patrick Stewart is in the new morrowind game, and that's great, but there are a lot of talented actors out there from the stage and screen who could have filled the same shoes. I am not knocking voice over actors; they truly have talent, but they should not be compensated more than the poor bastards working 60 hour weeks to make the game in the first place.
In five years I can only assume that this arguement will be moot as games by then will have budgets on the line with movies anyway.
"Jeremy, you need to get to an internet cafe and cut and paste some appropriate sentiments about me from the world wide
> YOU are replaceable. There are a million code monkeys and always one willing to work for less than you
... that's because 95% of coders are crap, and those are certainly replaceable. But the real experts in any software discipline (not just gaming) are actually few and far between --- that much is blatantly obvious to anyone who's ever had the sad duty of doing technical recruitment interviews. Maybe it's the fault of the educational system, or maybe too many programmers are self-taught and don't even realize that they're not particularly good, or maybe it's just natural that really good people are rare, who knows, but it's certainly the case.
:-)
:-)
There are a million CRAP code monkeys, yes
My advice to all true-blue experts is to go freelance, ie. become a computer contractor. If your CV is impressive in both education and experience, and if you talk sensibly and professionally and show that you are highly informed at the interview, you will almost always get the job because you are actually as rare as hen's teeth.
And because you are not competing against run of the mill coders, your rate will be different too, inevitably higher because you will be one of the lynch pins of the project. And you probably won't get outsourced either when lesser skilled positions are, if the company has even a shred of sanity left.
The downside? Fewer perks, and you'll have to buy your own insurance, but so what, you can afford it on higher rates. And you won't have permanent employment, but who the hell wants to work all the year round anyway?
It's worth ending with another line from the parent:
> Remember, you ARE NOT A PERFORMER.
Ah, but when you're a top expert, you ARE a performer, and far less replaceable than a voiceover actor.
Have you played any video games? "Talented," "skilled," and "creative" are not how I would describe video game voice actors. I would describe them as "unnecessary." In fact, I'd rather my games didn't have them, because they suck for the most part. Skilled coders, on the other hand, ARE necessary.
If they were such great voice actors, they could get a gig in any number of animated movies or shows. The fact that they aren't and have settled for such "meager" paychecks means that they are at the bottom of the voice actor barrel.
I'm willing to bet that real talent like Sean Connery makes a little more for his services.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for unions, and I guess they should ask for whatever they can get. However, when you are a less than necessary resource, don't be surprised when your jobs are taken. Now if the coders left in the middle of development on a $20 million project, the company may have no other choice than to cave-in.
For $275/hour I would offer my services to the game industry. I do a great impersonation of Cartman singing Nelly's "Hot in Here." Something to think about.
Sorry Wil Weaton, you peaked at "Stand by Me," and even then you were overshadowed by Corey Feldman, River Phoenix, and a heavy Jerry O'Connell. Jerry freaking O'Connell. Sometimes the truth hurts.
Why do 99% of computing staff want to be a slave working for someone else as a permanent employee, a small cog in a corporate machine? It's something that I've never really understood.
Make your own company (it only costs a few hundred bucks a year), and offer your development services through a contract agency. If you're good, the rates are far better, and there's plenty of work.
If it weren't for this 'we're better than workers who have to form a union' attitude amongst programmers and other technical workers, there'd already be a union for people in the game industry, and this sort of problem would have already been resolved.
Right now programmers and artists are being exploited in industry. They are working severe overtime without compensation. It is structual, in the sense that those responsible for managing and renumerating these employees know and plan for this unpaid overtime. Any copyright on created art or code is transfered without any particular compensation, for use of the company in perpetuity. People are literally being worked sick, and most receive a relative pittance in return, when compared with the profits of publishers.
Very occasionally there may be a royalty component offered to employees, but this is often not paid, or comes after the publisher skims off the top and is horribly meagre.
These people can be abused so easily because there is pride involved. People take pride in their work: they want to be associated with something with quality, that people will enjoy. There is also the belief that working for in the industry is an intrinsically cool thing to do. Employers and publishers then turn around and exploit that pride and belief.
What is the shame in forming a union? Do you think people started unions because it might be a fun lark on weekends? The current situation will remain until there is a force present to reverse it. And that force isn't about to come from the Tooth Fairy.
Sure there are not 10 Jim Careys, but there are millions of people who have moved to Hollywood over the years looking for their break, only to discover talent is not enough. Most of them have moved back home broke a few years latter. Of course there are many millions more who only thought they had talent, who have moved away too.
Once in a while someone makes it. However there is enough compitition that until you are big enough that they write scripts with you in mind, odds are against you getting into any movie you are qualified for. The person who beats you out may not be any more talented, and may be less - it is who you know and who you sleep with, just like every other job (careful, just like any other job offering to sleep with the boss may get you in, may be a non factor, or it may ruin your chances, depending on the boss's ethics)
If you must have Jim Careys' voice, then you have to have him. Be prepared to pay for it. (though you can often get a sound alike that is close enough) Most games do not need any particular voice. There are millions trying to get into acting, so you can choose any of the talented ones, and pay them little for a lot of work. Just like there are millions of developers trying to get into game programing, so they pay them little for a lot of work. (That is why I don't work in game programming)
Supply and demand applies to actors just as much as anyone else. Until you have a unique name that people know, and thus you are a supply of one, there are millions more waiting at the door.
The union needs to be very careful, because if things get too expensive companies will decide that the professional isn't worth it. They will pick some of the more talented staff (many already do this just because it is easier to pull someone from his desk when you want to make a change, than to call the actor back) and record their own. Maybe not as good, but good enough.
There are many MANY professions that are overworked and underpaid, but since we are on the subject of programmers, I will concentrate on us. I have worked for many companies, in the US and in Tokyo. Everything breaks down into Employer, Employee and Contractor. Employer gets the profits. Employees get a paycheck. Contractors generally get a bigger paycheck. The farce is that people believe that Employees have better job security than Contractors, but job security doesn't exist anymore. Game companies are Contractors. Almost all are bought out or hired by Employers like EA, who get the profits, and are let go when the job is done. Others that are independent have been going under waiting for the next big contract, or license. Unfortunately, game companies are NOT treated like contractors, and paid like Employees. This is the problem, especially since large groups of people work on the same project, and finish at the same time, versus a 'normal' working job, in which projects are scattered about, ending at different times. Because of all of this, I understand the complaints of game programmers. Even though I would love to work for a game company, I understand they work long hours, and get paid crap, so I choose not to work for one.
Water is wet.
Fire burns.
and everyone, everywhere, wants more money.
Pretty Pictures!
Code should be free. Actors and artists are different. At least that is what RMS says.
The CEO of our company tried to get us to work more hours, we just laughed, and continued to work just over 40/week.
You got your way as a result of collective action. You already have a de facto union. Thats all trades unionism is. Lucky you, but some people aren't in that position. Some companies run things to deliberately isolate and divide employees so that situation could never happen (c.f. Walmart). The problem arises when the boss hints he's looking to "free up" a dozen or so positions. All it takes is a few worried family men to comply and thats that. What are you going to do then?
Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
And pay (out of the gross) your most creative people to do your accounting.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
If I worked in the game industry, I'd be looking elsewhere really damn fast. There is no reason to believe that Indian or Chinese coders can't write quality game software just as rarely as American, British, or Aussie coders do, and they can produce the buggy, barely playable crap far cheaper.
Complaining that you want more money is only going to make the slide to outsourcing that much faster. You chose to work in this industry, you knew all the bullshit that game companies do to their employees. The kind of ridiculous hours for comparatively crap pay that you would be forced to do. You knew all of it and you signed on the dotted line because you were blinded by the fantasy of making games being the coolest thing ever. Why in the world should I feel sympathy for you?
"Programmers are easy to replace. People whose job requires creativity and who can do it successfully are a bit harder to come by."
The irony of this story is that it counters the "it's all about doing it for the love" argument, and "you're a bad person if you do it for the money".
Guess when push comes to shove and reality sets in, it is "all about the money"!
Considering the money a sucessful consultant brings home, turning contractor is indeed quite tempting.
An important disadvantage, however, is that you have to be your own marketing department all of the time. This is not easy for everybody, and for me this is the main reason I have not jumped ship yet.
C - the footgun of programming languages
"sounce" --> "sound"
Look, I've worked for companies like Origin and Digital Anvil, multimedia outfits, and even "normal" companies like IBM, and anyone who thinks that game programmers are easily replaceable -- that aside from a few John Carmack-types, the rest of us are just chaff -- well, I'm sorry, but you're deluded.
Carmack produces maybe one game every couple of years, and even then he's not the sole programmer on the title. So what about the team who did "Halo 2"? I doubt many of you could name any one of the programmers/engineers off the top of your head. Could they have been easily replaced with outsourced labor? And not just them, but all the artists, writers, and designers who also worked on the title? Or how about the programming team that did "Wipeout Pure"? Or "Deus Ex"?
Not every programmer is a rock star who gets profiles printed up in mainstream magazines, but that doesn't mean there's not some great talent out there that doesn't go by the name Carmack, Cliffy B, or Will Wright. And as someone who has had to hire for programming positions, they are a damn sight hard to find, so let's not minimize their contributions to games, even if they might not be a household name.
And sure, good voice talent is important to the overall gaming experience, but the idea that an actor who worked on a title for a handful of hours is more deserving of profit sharing than the people who actually _made the game_ by investing years worth of effort is patently ludicrous. Get a sense of perspective.
Skilled developers who can code a game into something FUN are.
You don't get that from offshoring to India.
Only getting 4 jobs a year? Hasnt it occured to you will that there might be reasons for that? Or did you sleep through economics 101.
Its simply supply and demand. There is way to much supply but the rate charged for the service limits the demand.
This is union protectionism. The union wont adapt to market forces so instead they want to extrot more money for the companies that can still afford them.
Unions are good up to a point. That point doesnt include bullying non-union voice actors into a union or extorting thier clients because they dont want to accept market forces.
In America we are imprisoned by our fear of them.
Not to sound TOO sarcastic, but part of the problem with the game industry right now is that it takes millions of dollars to start a game company.
Increasingly, this just isn't an option.
Further, most folks coming from "working" backgrounds have seen the effects of unions on industries like the Automotive industry. The companies simply move production to another country, unions be damned.
The problems in the game industry would be far better addressed through the creation and use of common assets, such as "stock textures" or "stock level wireframes". There needs to be a technological "field leveling" technology as well. The camcorder or other cheap cameras are good examples in film - they allowed students to create low-budget films (and drastically changed the accessibility of the pornography industry, making it a huge money maker).
Eh, it's just a guess, but from what I see, it's similar to publishing. Before the Web, you couldn't just make a magazine (and expect millions of people to read it). It took tons of money, distribution channels, etc etc etc. It was a huge risk. Now it's a bit different, lots more variety.
Video Game News, FAQs, etc
There are two names who stick out with me when I think of actors in games.. not anyone you would have ever heard of. The first was David Warner (Jon Irenicus in Baldurs Gate II) The second was Kane from Command & Conquer. You know what he was? He was a programmer or some other worker bee that made the game. Get a clue actors, you do not have the monopoly on your craft.
I was working there when this happened. So this is a personal account from my own recollection. I don't remember any press about it at the time. WC4 had a film shoot with all the actors on real sets (as opposed to the green screen of WC3) in Hollywood. The union found out and got the studio hands to walk off and unionize (or shut down the production in some way until union workers could be invovled... I wasn't involved in the particulars). That turned WC4 into a "union" production and, as such, the entire work was protected. Voiceover work was done back in Austin by the regular playtesters, programmers, artists, designers; etc. Whomever wanted to do it and then got listed in the credits. Afterwards, the union sent letters to those who did the voiceovers basically stating they had gotten a "freebie" for doing voiceover work on a union project and that if they ever wanted to do that again, they'd have to join the union.
Clearly you've never played Kotor 2 which not only features Kelly Hu, but also British stage actress Sara Kestelman.
And they're obnoxious as hell.