Slashdot Mirror
Patriot Act to be Expanded
m4dm4n writes "It seems that the patriot act is being expanded rather than scaled back after a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee. The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, as well as the ability to designate subpoenas as secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison."
They can do whatever they want without any judges or other laws having to say anything about it and when you go public (or to your lawyer) you go to prison? Isn't that a human rights violation?
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Eurasian spies are everywhere....
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
The perception of US 'freedom' is being undermined on a daily basis just like pieces of wood being removed from a jenga tower.
/glad I'm european.
Wonder how long you've got before it topples.
tom-george.comBecause geeks rate higher t
Democracy must not be taken for granted. It needs to be constantly fought for and won, else it will be coopted and lost.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
The solution to your problems as a resident of the United States may be at hand.
The best thing about these new laws is there won't be any evidence of abuse of power - anyone who squeaks will be locked up and have their reputation destroyed, its like getting rid of free speech without actually getting rid of it: genius!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
What makes you think he'll stand down after his second term? He's quite content to piss all over your Constitution, so why shouldn't he get a law passed allowing more than two terms of office?
I remember George Bush said that the terrorist _will_ not win. It looks like they have already won to me.
That's the problem, nobody cares that their democracy (or more accurately their constitutional republic) is dead and gone. It simply baffles me that people are so willing to piss away their freedom and it drives me crazy that I'm in the minority of people who see what's going on. The average US citizen will display his faith and patriotism in the US and all that it stands for, especially after 9/11, even though we have become the very thing we used to stand against; it sickens me.
Dude, your country is viewed as the sole definition of a police state by the rest of the world, might you not have noticed.
0x or or snor perron?!
No need to worry. Because of the ongoing war against Iran it will be necessary for him to stay on for a third term. America needs continuity, and anyone who says otherwise supports the terrorists.
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
Not an American myself, but I'd suspect that you're exactly the kind of person who should be going back to the US to stand up for what you believe in and help turn the current political climate around.
Do you know when people are at their most likely to overthrow tyranny? When they're starving, poor and unemployed. Otherwise, they are too busy working and providing for their family and trying to stay alive.
People get up in the morning, commute for a couple hours, work for ten or twelve hours, telecommute for a couple more hours. Feed the family. Pay the bills. Try and save a bit for retirement (or children's education, etc). Fix the broken shit in the house. Spend quality time with the kids and wife. Get some rest before doing it all again the next day.
Only when the majority are starving, poor and unemployed do they have both the incentive and the TIME to put everything on the line and make a change. Otherwise, it's all they can do to keep up with current events, much less act on them.
It's sad, but it's true. And for more of us than would like to admit it.
What bothers me, is that if you have a view that disagrees with the current powers, you are viewed as anti-american. I love my country, but I don't agree with everything they say, democrat or republican, and I don't think anyone should. Our country was built upon questioning authority. But it seems you must have blind faith or else you're viewed a dissenter and a traitor. After 9/11 I realized things had to change, but I don't think the patriot act was the correct way to go about it. It almost makes me fear my own country, because I don't know when I or anyone I know, innocent or guilty, could fall victim to this secret law system.
"Plans are for fools! Oglethorpe, the plutonian (Aqua Teen Hunger Force)
As I expected, many +5 insightful comments have appeared, claiming that american democracy is dead, or that the U.S. is approaching the police state, and so on. I really encourage you folks to try a broader perspective. Of course, those new laws are bad, and abusing citizens' rights, but
1. It's nowhere near the situation during, for example, maccarthyism. Read something about the period. People were out of jobs (or forced out of the country!) for no reason at all, other that they were untruthfully accused of sympathizing with communists. And yet, American democracy survived this, and -- if anything -- became only stronger. Really, you should have more faith in the system's built-in mechanisms. It worked amazingly well for two hundred years.
2. There is absolutely no comparison with the real police states, which are, unfortunately, still very common on our miserable planet. I think, It's insulting for the tortured to death victims in Iran, or China, or Russia, to even compare the minor inconveniences that Americans suffer with the police state actions. Looking from most of the Earth, America is land of the free, regardless how funny you may find this claim.
You US citizens need to put things in perspective. 2,823 died in that attack. Thats very sad but damnit, its not even a drop in the ocean compared to other dangerous things. Almost a million a year dies of off bad diet and no exercise (heart faliure). 90,000 dies in motor accidents. 28,000 people is killed by firearms a year. Where are the tough actions preventing theese much worse sources of death?
9/11 was just an excuse to implement the police state the Neocons always wanted. The things the US hated the most about Russia is now being implemented and the US citizens is just watching on. As long as the media is pumping out false and outrageous propaganda it wont change either.
Damn im glad i dont live in the US!
HTTP/1.1 400
Oh, good. America is still free: criticising the leadership is not a capital offence.
Is that the standard now? America - Land of the Not As Bad As North Korea?
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
I'm not trolling here and perhaps I'm not totally informed, but don't children chant their allegiance to the flag in primary school every day? Isn't it drummed into to everyone to love the constitution? Even though parts of it are hideously outdated and you could argue that every day it is being corrupted further.
Everyone thinks it teaches children patriotism and respect for the authority in place in the country. But it breeds the worst kind of patriotism where people will unquestioningly do whatever their leaders want and will rarely protest against them. True patriots love the landscape, the people and the values they stand for, not some petty symbols and words written on a piece of paper.
Home of the free, land of the brave.
It's easy to say from across the pond, I know -- but you guys..
So it would appear the plan is to protect your freedom by taking it away from you. Way to go.
Sure if you believe the terrorists "hate our freedom" and want to destroy it, these measures may appear to make some kind of sense.
But the fact is most of these terrorists don't mind your freedom, they mind US foreign policy which is supporting their dictators and exploiting their peoples. They are not fighting the US, they are fighting the US' ruthless protection of corporate interests overseas.
Add to that the sheer hypocrisy of imposing measures on others (e.g. no trade tariffs, no agricultural subsidies, no profileration of WMD, etc) while openly refusing to impose same on yourselves.. Frankly, although I despise violence even more than imperialism, I think I understand why people would fight that tooth and nail.
I really hope that you will stop this madness from within -- otherwise the next 911 is just waiting to happen.. And I hate to say it but that one will be your own goddamn fault.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
What do you prefer? Freedom from terrorists or freedom from the government?
Personally, my answer is freedom from the government. But most people seem to think the other way.
The average US citizen will display his faith and patriotism in the US and all that it stands for, especially after 9/11, even though we have become the very thing we used to stand against
Well, what do you expect. Americans are indoctrinated from birth that they live in the "shining beacon of freedom, land of the brave and home of the free" and so on. As if other democracies were nothing but pale copies of perfection. I would at times call it blind faith, that nothing bad could happen here almost by definition. And by implication, that makes the US government the leaders of the free world, equally flawless.
Sure, there are political disagreements but everyone thinks they work for the people, in particular to create economic prosperity. And in this regard to protect the people, all out of acting in the people's best interest. As long as you have such a deluded perception of government, it does not matter how big, how intrusive it gets because it is a big, intrusive force of good. As long as the cause is just, disruption of privacy and civil rights is accepted, because the ends justify the means.
Of course, no other organization in history has ever been able to wield that kind of power without succumbing to abuse, persecution, corruption, power grabs, search for personal profit and so on. If you look more closely at the collapse of empires like the Soviet Union, you see that is one of the biggest reasons for their economic and social downfall, more than the ideology itself. But not the US. Because the US goverment is Good, and the Soviet government was Evil. QED.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
At the risk of sounding seditious...
THE LAW IS WRONG. DO NOT SUBMIT.
I, unlinke our government, will continue to observe the law of the constitution over all others. If the document is amended and altered so that it no longer represents the spirit of freedom and "for-the-people, by-the-people" government that I feel is the best in the world, then I will leave and find a better government.
Are you kidding? Russia is far from becoming democratic, more like sinking back to dictatorship.
True. He has admitted that he speaks with god or jesus. I suppose he could announce that Jesus told him to serve a third term - and there are enough crazy religious sheeple in this country that would accept it.
Anyone who seriously thinks the US is a "police state" right now because of the "war on terrorism" is seriously lacking in historical perspective. The "war on drugs" has been much more harmful to civil liberties for the average American than anything the Bush administration or the last couple of Congresses have done.
As to the original idea - that there are so many "crazy religious sheeple in this country" that GWB could simply declare himself the next coming of Jesus and do whatever he wants: Assuming you're not just kidding, it's a ridiculous statement.
I would happily bet you (or the author of the parent of your post) $1,000 that GWB will not be President of the United States on January 21, 2009. Do you seriously think A) he would just ignore the constitution and B) everyone else would let him get away with it (especially including whomever the Democratic candidate for President is)? How would that work, exactly? He'd call off the election? You think states would stand for that? He'd let the election happen and then...what? Refuse to move out like a tenant who can't pay the rent? If you think that would last more than about three hours you seriously misunderstand this country. Evangelical Christians are a larger percentage of the electorate than I (as an atheist) would prefer, but they are far from a majority in this country. Even if they were able to wield power far in excess of ther size, they are by no means a monolothic block. A large percentage of them, believe it or not, respect the order of law and don't actually want a theocracy in this country (even if they do hold some moral beliefs informed by their religion that I disagree with). Not many of them would want a religiously annointed, unelected leader. Believe it or not.
I mean, you're talking about a man with 45% approval ratings. You seriously think he'd be able to say - whatever his justification - "I'm not going to give up this office," and other people - especially the other people who want said office - are simply going to let him do it?
As to your last point, I agree that I wish people were more educated about the unalienable rights we have. I wish more people understood the way the Constitution attempts to lock the government off to prevent those rights being trampled on. But that's not a new, unique phenomenon - the average American is woefully uneducated about much of our laws and history. I recall reading in the 80s that a majority of high school seniors identified the phrase "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" as being a phrase from the US constitution. So, having no idea what's in that document isn't a new phenomenon.
In summary: The ACLU needed to be screaming more about the rights we lost in the war on drugs. Most of this Patriot Act whining they're doing now is over things of little actual consequence. My fear is that, like the boy who cried wolf, when some future Congress or President really does try to institute a police state no one will be paying attention to the ACLU because "they always scream about everything, but nothing really bad ever happens."
Sorry, but have you ever been to the U.S.?
Your trails of "almost by definition" to "by implication" to QED is ludicrous.
Sure, there are political disagreements but everyone thinks they work for the people, in particular to create economic prosperity.
I don't think I've ever met anybody who believes this. On the contrary, suspicion and mistrust of government is common to almost every political viewpoint anyone holds in this country. Why do you think every politician runs against Washington, no matter how long he's been there?
The simple truth is that people fail to oppose the patriot act because it has zero visible impact on their lives, not because they believe it derives from the heavenly benevolence of government. Argue along that axis (and please, with something less sci-fi than endless repetitions of "They came for...") and you will win every argument you have about the PA.
The stupidity of the right presents such a fantastic opening to its opponents, but they all seem to prefer to scream "brainwashed fascists!" instead of trying to actually win the debate. It's really pathetic.
Kill, Tux, kill!
Terrorists don't exist in vaccum. They exist in reaction to something bugging them. Stop bugging them and they will have no reason to cause terror. Every bit of reaction from 9/11 had nothing to do with fixing the reasons it happened and everything to do with bugging the hell out of the entire planet. First it was a feel wacky arabs pissed. Now it's the entire planet. Way to go...
The "U.S." isn't doing this. It's the U.S. Government. It hasn't been in the control of the people for decades.
What the "U.S." cares about is entertainment (TV, movies, music) toys (cars, motorcycles, boats) and bare survival. We're so busy in the pursuit of those things that we don't want to think about politics and governance. Of course once in a while some band of "cooks" will rise up saying crazy things like "patriot act is bad" and stuff but they are forgotten as soon as the next commercials come on.
The masses of the people have to be hurting pretty badly before we will notice what has happened.
Yes, it is a bad thing. You can see it on CNN, you can see it in the attitudes of American tourists overseas. They think that, just because random chance led them to being born in the USA, they are somehow a higher form of life than everyone else. Pride in your country should come from the actions of the people themselves striving to better themselves and their country, not from some dogmatic pledge injected into every childs brain.
Are you kidding? America is far from remaining democratic, more like sinking into a dictatorship.
Sobpoenas with no judge that people can't know about that are allowed to be made secret and classified scream of the KGB making people disappear in the night and despotism to me.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Not true. The Constitution was designed to lay some ground rules so that we would not get off course. It is meant to be as constant as reasonably possible. That is why it is so difficult to change it. Even with a Republican majority and a Republican President they were not able to pass an amendment pertaining to gay marriage.
When it's convenient liberals dont mind changing the constitution (not that i'm saying i know anything about you, takeya), but then when it effects them they scream "injustice!".
I'm actually a registered republican, but as of late I've been feeling pretty out of touch with the party and by the current use of the word I guess I'm now a liberal (just a little background).
I cannot speak for others but my rational for liking or disliking a law or ammendment has nothing to do with it being "convienient" or not. I have a very simple test if I like it or not in cases like this. Does the law/ammendment grant more/expand rights and freedom or does it limit/take away rights and freedom? That is it!
If it gives more rights to people, then its good and I'm all for it. If it limits or takes away rights, then I'm against it. Simple as that. For example, Amendment XIII - Slavery Abolished, Amendment XIV - Citizenship rights, Amendment XV - Race no bar to vote, Amendment XIX - Women's suffrage. Those are all good. Amendment XVIII - Liquor abolished. That is bad.
Now I'm not an anti-patriot act nazi. Most of it is actually pretty common sense stuff, but there are some BAD parts as well. If this article is correct is seems they are expanding the bad parts instead of repealing them as we all hoped.
I really hope being against this type of expansion of the patriot act isn't a conservitive/liberal issue. It'd hope we could all agree this is not in our best interest and work together to try to convey those feelings to those in congress.
"reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
Where the FUCK is the judicial branch?
Ducking and covering. They're busy being beaten about the head and face with the term "judicial activism."
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Their children and grand children haven't learned these lessons of history as well as some of our contemporaries in Germany, Russia and other parts of Europe. As the leading example, no pun intended, we have today a child of a Veteran of World War II in the White House, leading the charge to trade a reduction in civil rights in this country for promised increases in security. On the bright side, there is a debate going on here, a public debate. Consider Bruce Schneier's recent book Beyond Fear, which seeks to help us learn how to consider the trade-offs that security decisions require at all levels, personal and societal.
The terrorists who struck The World Trade Center want a world run by an archaic, theocratic totalitarianism with eye-for-an-eye style justice meted out by them and their hand-picked like-minded sociopaths. When we give up civil rights to fight terrorism, the terrorists gain ground. However, we have many checks and balances here and we are a very long way from sliding into totalitarianism of any sort here in the U.S. Unfortunately there are many people who don't see the slippery slope when they step out upon it.
Back on the bright side, today we have more interaction between the people of different countries than ever before. The internet provides opportunity for dialog between the citizens of different countries which is historically unprecedented. German students come to the U.S. and talk to their friends about history, Russian emigrants in the U.S. talk to their friends about what's happening now in Russia, and how strange it is to see things like secret subpoenas and detention without charges and trials in the U.S. I've heard examples of both groups express surprise in conversations with young Americans ignorant of history, "Don't you realize this is how Fascism starts?" With fear. Yoda got that right, for sure. As a citizen of the United States I would like to thank you for remembering and reminding us. There are many of us here who appreciate your patience. We are a young country, but an old Democracy. With your help, we will make it through this without sliding into an Orwellian 1984, nor a Fascistic 1934.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Thanks for this post. I especially appreciated this line, but not for it's intended purpose. Frankly, it made me cringe....
The terrorists who struck The World Trade Center want a world run by an archaic, theocratic totalitarianism with eye-for-an-eye style justice meted out by them and their hand-picked like-minded sociopaths.
You know why? Because from my perspective, those hard line "conservatives" (very large air quotes) who run our government speak about this daily...
A slogan of the Texas republican party (of whom George W Bush is the most prominent member) states "The Republican Party of Texas affirms that the United States is a Christian nation." Several right-wing organizations actively state "Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government." Among other things, the push for Christian Theocracy is more thinly veiled at the top reaches of our power structure (and actually spoken openly in some circles) than it has been since 15th century Puritans.
In addition, today's "conservatives" are leading the push to increased usage of the Death penalty and increasing mandatory sentences while reducing or in some cases completely removing the judiciary's ability to diverge from these mandatory requirements due to extenuating circumstances. This is the first time in America, at least since the Salem Witch trials where the punishment for certain crimes far outstrips the damage or harm caused by that crime. One great example involves "crimes against children". While there are serious crimes perpetrated, the sentencing for such crimes has grown significantly out of proportion with actual research findings showing harm and danger to children. A simple pat on the butt or even a hand on the shoulder can net a mandatory minimum sentence of more than 10 years, though studies show that non-penetrative abuse is statistically shown to have very small long term effects on children when the issue is treated with open discussion, trust and patience.
Small-time drug usage also has been shown to have statistically very little negative effect on society as a whole, but is punished with ever-increasing sentences that far outstrip the crime.
On top of this, top officials in our government often speak of the courts or opposition parties as "getting in the way of progress" when they strike down things like the patriot II and DMCA or the Internet Decency Act... when in reality they are struck down because they grossly infringe on our rights as citizens and people. The proper reaction is to be embarassed that they would make the MISTAKE of outstripping their power,but instead they vow revenge and simply re-write the bills with more "sneaky" language to see if they can get them passed in a second round of voting.
Then, they push laws giving the executive branch power to overrule (war powers act) and oversee (2001 PROTECT act) the legislative branch and judicial branch. Soon, they are appointing chairmen sympathetic to their cause regardless of their qualifications to handle the job and instituting collective organizations through wich they can better consolidate the power base and coordinate covert activities and actions. And a small bit of trivia, KGB loosely translates to "Comittee for Motherland Security" through which most Soviet intelligence and covert operations took place. That was Stalin's equivalent to consolidate his power into a single state entity that reported directly to him rather than to other arms of his power base.
I won't even go into the list of seven countries who have directly violated UN resolutions in the last 5 years (S Korea, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, US) or the countries that have executed minors in the last 25 years (Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, US) or the first-world countries that currently prisioners without trial and without recourse (uhhh US, maybe Russia, China, if they count) or should I point out that the US was the second greatest contributor to what are referred to today as "terrorist organizations", as recent
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.