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After College, What Type of Jobs Should One Seek?
Sushant Bhatia asks: "I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree, and I'm on the prowl for jobs. However, there are so many types out there it's just overwhelming for someone who's never had to go through the job-hunting process before. So, what should I do? Should I go for a full-time, contract, half-time, or something else? Also, what kind of position should a person with a Master's in Computer Science be looking for (other than dish washer)? I've been looking at senior software developer positions, but is that too high up the ladder for someone 'fresh' to cope with? My current manager (research lab) says that 'You should always find a job that is above your skill level so that you can learn and be challenged.' I think he's right, but is that something Slashdot readers agree with? What was your job coming out of university?"
Straight goods:
There's always a need for network people and sysadmins. With the shift from Windows/Proprietary Unix to Linux/*BSD you should concentrate on jobs in those areas, they're booming (I get at least 2 offers a month). If you stick to the Windows side of things you're going to be in a rut of helping users reboot and install patches. If you stick to proprietary Unix you can still do well in some high end research or data center work but cheap clusters are eating the bottom end out of some of that market.
Don't expect a senior position. Frankly too many hot-shot grads think they're The Goods; NONE are. If you can't translate your book smarts to real world work then you're destined to a life at a help desk.
That's how it is around here (I'm based in SoCal with work in 8 data centers around the country and 4 internationally) and I've been in the field since 1988.
Don't worry if your competent or not, your boss will be the judge of that.
However if you would like to be not in an uncertain position you better find out your interest and competents.
Perhaps getting in contact with a good headhunter is not that bad of an idea, but hey who am I telling if get a Msc. CS you could figure that out by yourself.
I hear a P.h.D is nice this time of year. Put off entering the "real world" as long as possible.
Be better in bed. Wikiafterdark!
Go self-employed! It's the best. :) All you need is a great idea and motivation.
I've never worked for anyone in my life. Got a flexible schedule and can do whatever I want.
Apparently one which does not require much decision making.
Heh, no kidding. Does anybody believe in starting at the bottom and working their way up anymore? Self-importance is a career killer.
Trolling is a art,
I think you should be very careful - I can't imagine many companies wanting to hire a fresh graduate into a Senior position, there are a lot of experienced professionals out there looking for work, and all the graduates are generally looking to step into a junior software developer positions.
If you aim for unrealistic goals, then you must be prepared to fail, if you do want to go for the senior positions on the off-chance you hit lucky, make sure you also apply for the junior positions elsewhere.
To be honest, just working in a corporate environment should be a challenging learning experience for most graduates, it's completely different to how you will have worked in college. Once you have mastered the basic work-place skills and proven your worth then you will be in a position to move on to more challenging roles.
I would agree that it is best to find a job that you will learn in and be challenged, but the way to do this is to have a lot of applications out there, a number of offers in the bag after interviews, then you choose the most interesting/challenging one. Don't be afraid of accepting positions as they come in, and then "resigning" them before starting if you get a better offer from another company. the companies are pretty strict on making sure they have the right candidate out of many, and if you get the opportunity then you should make sure you pick the best company out of many.
Get your first foot on the ladder, then set your own pace for progression - be on the lookout for stagnation though, if you find yourself getting bogged down in a position, bored and unchallenged, go shopping for a new job.
Hope that helps!
-- Pete.
Monochrome - Probably the UK's largest internet BBS
That's the key, and a degree doesn't help you much. A degree gives an employer a fair indication that you have a decent level of knowledge and can work reasonably hard. But it doesn't tell them that you'll be able to plan a software project or write code that's easy to maintain.
If you apply for a job and they have a choice between you and someone with more real world experience, odds are pretty good they won't choose you. So, fresh out of college, your choices are limited. Basically, check the job listings and apply for anything which isn't asking for more experience than you've got. There are other things to consider, of course, but that's the major one. They pretty much have to be looking for a fresh graduate.
It's "Master's," not "Masters." See wikipedia entry.
It doesn't look particularly impressive on a resume if you can't even write your educational credentials correctly. Yes, these are small things, but we are nerds, and for nerds small things like this matter. If we weren't obsessive about details, our programs wouldn't compile, and we wouldn't be who we are.
Get a job for a company that does something you are interested in. Don't aim too high. The biggest mistake grads make when they come for interviews where I work is they are too cocky, they think they know it all when they don't. Most CS grads know the theory but can't actually use anything they know in a real world situation. Also they can't handle not having loads of time to plan and having to get it done by the dead line. In the real world you don't get extensions to when your work is due in (well you do but then you don't get any more work!).
Get a job as just a general worker in an IT company. Don't be too cocky, listen and learn. Suggest ideas and if they are not the right idea ask why not. Try not to piss too many people off who don't have a degree or masters, etc. If they have been at the company/industry longer than you chances are they know shit loads more than you and you can learn a great deal from them.
An education is a great thing but it isn't the only thing you need to survive in life. Don't become a victim to the cocky graduate stereotype that all IT companies have these days.
Best of luck to you!
If you're coming straight from university, you can do much worse than a few years of full time employment. Pay off those depts, gain some valuable experience so that people will take you seriously, it'll help you with what ever you may want to do later in life.
As for what sort of employment, I'm biased because I work in it, but I think the Mobile Phone software industry is very up and coming right now, its where all the excitment is going to be in the next few years.
You're asking the wrong question. You should first sit down and ask yourself what interests you and what you would enjoy doing for a living. Maybe you dig airplanes so you want to get a job working on the computer systems on new planes from Boeing. Or maybe you like security software so go find a job at Symantec. You get the point.
After you've figured out what interests you, go talk to alumni from your school who work in the industry you're heading into. Ask them how they like their job, what salary expectatios you should have with your experience etc.
Whatever you end up doing, make sure you enjoy it. Good luck job hunting! I hope you land somewhere interesting and enjoyable.
Don't you kids have guidance counselors or advisors or anything? Find a job you think would be fun! Or find a job that will allow you to save up to switching to something fun.
[o]_O
Senior level positions are reserved for individuals who have commensurate experience and education, only one of which you have (and, even though you say you have a masters degree, I don't know if its a masters in culinary arts from the Wassamatta U, or a Comp Sci degree from MIT.)
If you shoot for a Senior level anything position, you better know, and I mean KNOW your shit, because by that point, they are looking for people to get things done, rather than learning things. You might do well to start at a I or II level position, and work (and I do mean WORK) your way up. I started at a I and in less than a year, got promoted (with a consider raise) to a II level by proving myself beyond just doing what was necessary.
Hades, PoD: Official Advocate
Nothing to see here. We're all fine and there aren't any spare jobs. Move along please...
Seriously though, I would never hire a newbie graduate (well, not never). From past experience, I've tended to find that the best IT people are those who love what they do and drop out because they see the weaknesses in the learning system associated with IT or spend so much time actually doing it, rather than people who view IT as a 'here and now' easy money route that it just like any other profession.
The latter I despise, and you can usually catch them out simply by asking why they're in IT. Normally you get a very honest "I thought there was money in it" answer. Normally they're of the opinion "I've been trained in it, so I must be good" and fail to realise that some of the key qualities come simply through a love of the subject.
Harsh I know, but graduates nowadays expect it on a plate as soon as they're out.
Not trying to be rude, but your academic achievements may not count as much as you think. Practical experience counts far more. My past experience tells me that I cannot judge someone by their education. Many of the best and brightest people I have worked with did not have any, or very little, college education. Also I have worked with many people with Masters degrees who are complete idiots.
And vice-versa.
I am not knocking you or your education, just trying to prepare you for what you may find.
Slashdot - Where the slash is most definitely to the left.
Good advice for some people, but if I lived every day like it was my last, I'd be in jail many, many times over. Some of us should just live our lives like we probably have some more coming. Make sure you're not one of us before you go rearranging things.
The first question you may need to answer is whether learning is your favorite hobby. If so, then go get a challenging job and join the corporate rat race. Keep in mind that the larger your company and division, the more backstabbing and politics you'll deal with.
If learning isn't your favorite hobby, then put together a list of all the stuff you like to do. Do you like to travel? Mountain bike? Scuba dive? If that's what you enjoy, then go work in that field. Believe it or not, you can find good-paying tech jobs (or just about anything else) in each of those areas. If you like to travel, look on Lonely Planet's web site for jobs. If you like to ride bikes, then check out the website of a bike manufacturer to see if they're hiring.
I worked for a small company for about 3 years and had a lot of fun doing sys admin work. It was a great learning experience and at that point in my life I enjoyed learning just about more than anything.
Then I decided I'd go skiing. Now I get paid to work for a ski resort doing IT work. In the winter I get anywhere between 40 - 100 days of skiing in. I'm actually sort of getting bored of skiing now, so I'm thinking sitting on a beach in Thailand is what I'll do. I just need to get paid for it.
You'll also need to weigh whether the greed of $$$ will override where you want to live. Ideally you'll live and work exactly where you want to. However, you might be tempted to move across the country to a place you hate just to make money.
----- obSig
I've been looking at senior software developer positions, but is that too high up the ladder for someone 'fresh' to cope with?
Depends on where you work. I worked for several years after college and then went back to school full time for an advanced degree. At least in my experience, there's a world of difference between what the senior software engineers did and the kind of development that I do in grad school.
Most academic types don't have to worry about making their code bulletproof, "productizing" it, requirements documents, tech specs, working with UI folks, working with QA folks and bug DBs, or coding to a schedule as part of team. Then there's talking to customers, putting out fires and doing damage control when something breaks. And depending on how senior you are, there may be managing a budget and managing devs under you. (Then you may get to deal with HR for hiring, firing and performance evaluations.) It's much more rigorous and often very different from the sort of speculative, independant exploratory development that takes place at grad school.
I'm not trying to put down grad school (I wouldn't be back if I didn't think it had value), but someone who's never worked in the commercial sector will lack a lot of the real-life experience that senior engineers there need. And an advanced degree is not a substitute.
otherwise how do you know what the folks you're managing are supposed to be doing?
Likewise, how will you know what the folks who are managing are doing wrong? The best way to learn is from your mistakes. The safest way is to learn from someone else's.
The world's only surviving livewriter.
If you've never been on the job market before, any kind of job related to computers will be ample "new", trust me. Dealing with people, your boss, your coworkers, your ideas, their ideas, meetings, marketing, arg... it's not easy! And it's something you need to _learn_.
I think you're asking the wrong question here. When you're just getting out into the "real world," you need to focus on finding a position that's going to make you the happiest, not the one that looks the best on paper.
Look at the type of culture, the location, the history of the company, the people they hire, their strategy for success, even their reputation among their competitors. Are these the types of people you want to work with or for? Do you love working in the boonies, or is a downtown location more enjoyable? Does your excite you? Would you rather work for Porsche or Ford? Microsoft or Mozilla? Wal-Mart or Nordstroms?
When you're young you have the luxury of relatively little excess baggage. You probably don't have a mortgage, wife, children, or outrageous car payments (yet). You can move, change careers, and take risks that may not be as easy when you are committed.
This is arguably the last time you will ever be able to truly consider a variety of positions and select the one that best fits you. The next time you start looking, you'll have other concerns that will impact your decision.
If you like to tinker or play with fun new technology, then a boutique shop (smaller shops focused on one particular area/technology) or a commercial research lab might be a good choice. If you like to travel and wear expensive shoes, then you might look into consulting. If you just want to program, then try to find a company whose story you can really dig into. Don't rule anything out until you really know, because some of the best jobs are lying in unexpected places.
I've seen many people go 12-18 months in a job and absolutely hate it. Maybe you will too, but chances are there's a company looking for people just like you. A company that will meet all of your requirements and keep you happy too. That's where you want to work.
Your search might not be easy. You may have to relocate far away. You'll have to find the balance of incentives that suits you best (location, hours, benefits, compensation, etc). Digits on a paycheck can only cure a handful of ailments, none of them fatal.
Technicalities like tax (which is the driving factor behind W2 vs 1099) should only play a factor when trying to decide between two equally attractive positions or if you have extenuating circumstances (insurance, for example). If you let them guide you to a position, you'll likely end up somewhere you'd rather not be.
-R
Living every day like it was their last is exactly what infants do before they acquire the concept of "delayed gratification", which they do (according to Piaget) at about the age of three.
Given that the trend of the quality of my life is positive, I suspect that my life was pretty hopeless before I was three. And by induction from one case, I suspect that this goes for anyone else also.
So, whatever you do, don't live your life like every day was the last.
...believe it or not, real-world experience is very different than academic experience.
I have a great deal of real-world experience now, and a degree as well. When I graduated, I started at entry-level positions and worked my way up. It works.
Recently, I worked with a guy who had a masters in computer science from a well-known accredited state college. And he wasn't an idiot. However, he also wasn't ready for the real world. His troubleshooting thought process needed a great deal of refinement, and his ability to deliver the kind of requirements necessary in the kinds of time-frames necessary just wasn't up to par (yet). During the year that I worked with him, I saw his skills improve (as one would expect). In another several years, he may be senior-position material. But not until he has the experience under his belt.
I am not saying college is easy, nor that the education is valueless. I AM saying that graduates, precisely because of their lack of experience, have an unrealistically high opinion of their own abilities, and often make the sorts of costly (and embarrassing) mistakes that more experienced programmers don't make.
So there's my opinion.
I think that's optimistic. In some industries, it may well be true, but not computing. In this business, you take a guy with two years' professional development experience over a guy with two more years' academic experience for any non-research development position, because the proven track record and practical skills easily outweigh the same length of time invested in research and theoretical skills.
Higher degrees are good if you want to do research, or as a possible advantage later in your career, but everyone starts on the first rung or two of the ladder. As the parent post suggests, you're never getting up to the senior rungs right from the start no matter how good your academic record may be.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
You order 5 tacos and ask for 10 mild sauces. They can't give them to you. Even from the drive-through, you have to park and come in to get the extra sauce yourself.
If I actually went to Taco Bell, I'd just wait in the drive thru line until they gave me my sauce. What idiot thought pissing on customers was good business.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I don't understand how you spend so much time earning a MASTERS degree... and then can't figure out "what kind of job to get".
Uh. How about one that pays you money?! The one that pays you the most, provides the most benefits and interest you the most?!
Questions like these aren't doing a lot for promoting the need to worship career college students.
My guess is, this guy will decide the real world is "too hard" and go back to school for something else for another four to eight years.
It takes discipline to do that. Also, it helps to have some experience working for somebody else, especially if you need to get capital to start something (bank loan, investments).
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
It is not that degrees aren't worth shit. It is that there are a lot of people working in software development that don't have degrees.
I have worked with a lot of non-degreed developers that were very capable.
Many non-degreed people will tell you degrees are worthless. They may collect stories of the "educated idiots" they have met or worked with.
It might be sour grapes. It might be that they had to quit school to support themselves or their family.
Some non-degreed people are really touchy about the idea that a person with a degree might be in any way more valuable than a person without a degree.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
The only reason I looked in this discussion was to make sure that someone had made this statement. Now, I'll second it. All college does is to prepare you to learn. In your first few years in the real world, you should prepare yourself to learn several times as fast as you did in college because now you don't have the hindrance of mass education and can learn as an individual.
I've heard it said that we should count someone with a Masters as having a BS+2 years of experience. That would still not place one as a senior. And, frankly, I don't see the 2 years of experience aspect. I think those that got out with the BS and worked for 2 years probably learned the equivalent of at least 4 years at a college pace as long as they truly dove into a development job.
Even with a masters degree, sonsider yourself a student for at least a year or two after you get out of school. Even if you have every ability to be a senior programmer (I doubt it) you don't want to be one. The absolute most important thing you want from a job is to have people around you who are willing and able to teach.
I consider much of my first year out of school to have been a waste. Sure, I was given my own (important) projects and learned three languages I hadn't used before. That's great. But as some of my projects progressed it started to become apparent to me that while I could make this stuff happen and my boss was happy, I just didn't know my shit enough and needed mentoring. I wasn't getting that at that job and so I bailed out and found work elsewhere.
Where I ended up was perfect. My first month or two was kinda miserable as I learned that not only did I need mentoring, I was way behind where I thought I was. But I learned a lot and had every line of code I wrote reviewed and critiqued. On my first solo project there, I ended up rewriting the thing about three times. You learn a lot from that.
Your goal is to find a teacher who will appreciate the talents you've picked up in your masters program. I've been doing a lot of consulting and been in a number of companies. My heartfelt recommendation is that you get into a small company where the people are passionate.
Your first mistake was shopping at Wal-Mart.
Your second mistake was thinking that a Wal-Mart drone could ever have anything approaching useful information.
Your third mistake was shopping at Wal-Mart.
Sensing a pattern?
Wal-Mart is killing the American dream in slow motion. Every dime you spend there furthers their goals of complete marketplace and labor relations supremacy. (In other words, they want ALL the money and they want to pay you NOTHING.)
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
The time to figure out what job to get is not the week before you graduate with a master's degree.
I have a buddy, over 50 I have to add, that was about ready to head over to Sandia for a job, but then a new guy took over and decided that he'd hire 4.0s out of college instead of seasoned veterans. I guess he's going to get what he paid for... he may as well have outsourced his development for the hassle he's going to have with the kids.
Another buddy said of the current crop of kids, "bright, cannot program, big egos." Only good if they can put in the 80 hours that I hear kids out of school and without families can do.
If I were a hiring manager, and I've been there before but not for this job, and told to hire codemonkeys out of school, I'd ask them if they ever took a projects (software engineering) course, and what they thought about it as far as it being something that they'd like to do, say, for the rest of their professional lives.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?