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Under a Big Blue Shadow
PenguinCandidate writes "Linux server market share numbers can be tricky, with HP touting itself as a leader and IBM garnering all the press. For one analyst, it's all about identity." From the article: "HP can say that it has led the worldwide Linux server market for 29 consecutive quarters. HP can also say with confidence, thanks to IDC's Worldwide Quarterly Server Tracker from May 2005, that it outpaced IBM by nearly eight percentage points in quarterly revenue share. And yet, that Big Blue thundercloud remains. "
and obviously, IBM's marketeers are doing a good job. HP's still reeling from the fiasco of the Carly years and probably will for at least another year or two.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
To me, HP is a middleman doing anything profitable, while IBM sticks to one thing and tries to do it well.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
For better or for worse, Haff said he believes HP has never made the same level of executive commitment to position itself publicly with Linux and open source the way IBM did
-mocheese
To be honest this article seems accurate enough. I didn't even know that HP was selling Linux servers. They definitely don't try to make it known, and do not get very much press if they do try.
IBM dominates the Linux news everywhere I look.
I think the biggest reason is that they do so many different things for Linux, and it seems they actually help the development of Linux much more than just selling servers.
There in lies the biggest difference.
HP = selling servers
IBM = developing new features in Linux, and selling servers.
IBM and SGI get quite some publicity through JFS and XFS. I'm unaware if HP does similar.
HP does offer nice Debian Support; and that's what I know them best for.
Does anyone have a list of how each company contributes?
Everyone remembers the Corvair. And if you had experience with it, you'll remember the HP 6L and the HP 1100. Utter crap!
When it comes right down to it, every company can use some pretty "impressive" looking stats to swing things in their favor. This is no different.
The aotumotive industry is the worst, every possible car on the market seems to have some obscure award it has won to help tout its abilities. In the end, its whatever fits your current needs/situation, ignore the hyped up stats.
"A war over religion is like fighting over who has the best imaginary friend."
I serviced HP servers for years and always thought them to be pretty good. I especially think that the proliant servers provide a lot of bang for the buck. But sometimes I think that their image suffers from association with some of their less than stellar workstation offerings.
....... since they are still dealing with SCO over IP issues? We want that to be pretty public and well known.
And if IBM so enjoys identifying with LINUX, then their deep pockets can be used to establish some things legally.
Everyone wins here, as far as I can see.
"All I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power." - Ashleigh Brilliant
... want a nice big mainframe in my closet running linux.
The mere thought makes me wet whenever I say, "Linux Mainframe"
Linux Mainframe... ooh.
Shadus
that IBM is contributing heavily in the Linux arena. They have more coders in the kernel. Most of HP's contributions are about sales for HP. Good example is HP's drivers for their printers. They have not really contributed to lpr or cups. It would be nice if HP also did advertisements for and with Linux. So far, all that see is that "We sell Windows, and Unix. Oh yeah, some Linux too.". HP has hired some top ppl from Linux, but they did not make good use of them. They wished to keep a low profile so as to not anger the Windows ppl. Well, so what. Dell is eating HP for lunch when it comes to Windows, and will continue to do so.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
HP donates in some way to about 55 projects, but only a few of them are linux specific. IBM on the other hand contributes to at least 162 projects, 44 of them specific to Linux. So IBM's Linux specific contributions alone number nearly as much as ALL those of HP put together. When you count in the projects that IBM works on that are not Linux specific, they stand head and shoulders ahead of HP in the most important measure: code.
And so that IBM thundercloud shall remain forever on the horizon until it slams into the mountain of not actaully selling anything.
The analysis is interesting. The article says HP failed at marketing. For all the criticisms that Carly turned HP into a make nothing market everything company, this article would seem to refute that. That in fact HP was doing lots with Linux and reaping the rewards in sales, but failing ot let the world know about it.
On the contrary (not that it is anything new) IBM is marketing the crap out of Linux.
I guess this is proof that if it didn't end up on Carly's radar she couldn't ruin it with marketing BS.
I tried for 5 years to come up with a clever sig...only to realize that I am not clever.
Power?
PA-Risc?
Nope. Intel sells the most.
IBM has become, at Gerstner's direction, a "global services juggernaut." Their support of Linux is not directly tied to a plan to sell more Linux servers. It is tied directly to their capability to provide comprehensive services through their Global Services division. It's a good strategy. That division is the bane of just about every other major tech services provider.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
--
So who is hotter? Ali or Ali's Sister?
"What brand runs most Linuxes"
This is just about the hardware, and the hardware only. HP's Proliant series is still way ahead of IBM, FujitsuSiemens, Dell and so on.
But the hardware agents for Linux blows, the driver support blows and to call their Linux support for support is hypocrisy.
This is a plain hardware issue.
All generalizations are false
Dell probably sells more Linux servers than either IBM or HP.
Oh well, what the hell...
But HP replaced Carly with Mark GNU/Hurd! Surely that's gotta count for something?
Hence, we use Linux (Suse 9.3) + Apache (1.3 or 2.0 depending on customer preferences).
Dedicated Linux servers (root access) $45 p.M.
Having used both IBM xSeries servers and HP Proliant servers all running Linux, I can say without any hesitation that the Proliant boxes are far better Linux servers. Their servers all work and work great with Linux. The IBM servers can be a real gamble, especially newer models, with devices not supported by most Linux distributions or requiring closed source drivers. HP has also done a great job porting over all of their Insight Management tools and agents for Linux. So it is certainly not suprising that HP is leading in the Linux server space, they simply have a better product. Also, there is no chance HP is getting out of the Intel/AMD server market. Is anyone willing to make that same bet with IBM, especially after the Lenovo deal?
HP if it were smart would get behine the BSD's as well.
I just bought a Dell.
2x3GHz,
2GB RAM,
3x250GB SATA RAID 5, (six RAID bays)
Redhat ES 3 year,
3 year next-day warranty (for "free"), rather than their 4-hour on-site service (not free).
$2600.
HP and IBM were just too expensive.
Dell had some interesting 1U and blade-type stuff, but I was buying a file/mail server.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
....people with a clue know this is all marketroid bullshit.
Whoever modded you -1 didn't get the joke.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
IBM has been working with Linux for longer, developing a place in the community.
They've donated millions of dollars worth (in developer time) of code to Open Source and Free Software.
They have enigineered solutions to allow Linux to run alongside AIX and other OSes on IBM hardware.
Some really great hacks.
And really pushing Linux as a solution that's innovating far faster than anything else out there - remember the ad campaign?
Kudos goes to IBM! Of course their getting the press.
On another note, the numbers may be skewed, because when you purchase, say, an iSeries from IBM intending to run Linux, you get it with i5/OS (aka OS/400) and have to load Linux yourself.
For those technically challenged:
Apparently there's a tug-o-war between IBM and HP.
IBM: The penguin's mine!
HP: No, mine!
IBM: Mine!
HP: MINE!
Penguin: HELP!!!
Out of curiosity, what "real work" is IBM failing at wrt Linux?
If IBM gets its way in the Eastern block with power (CELL) on everything from phones to mainframes, those 30 BILLION CELL processors will sweep intel from the planet. I suspect something less than that, but still significant to challenge intel for dominance. (finally)
Anybody ever try to reach HP's phone support to their Linux Servers??? About 18 months ago we ordered several HP Proliant (I still can't get over that - it's like Michael Jordan on the Wizards) DL servers and copies of Red Hat Enterprise straight off their website. The version of Red Hat they shipped did not yet have driver support for their fan system (And my god those fans are LOUD), and the drivers were nowhere to be found on HP's website. So, we called HP. First we were routed to India/Pakistan/Kyrgstan/wherever, then finally found out they had somebody in the US for Linux support and we were routed back. That's right folks, ONE (as in singular) guy! He finally called us back and pointed us to some drivers somebody else (not HP) developed. (And a profound THANK YOU to whomever developed them. You saved our department's eardrums!) Later, we needed another server and decided we'd test the waters with IBM. The install went MUCH easier, and when we called with a question, we were not routed all over the earth. There was little wait time and low and behold they had more than one techie who knew linux! When I read the article I almost died of laughter!! It's possible things have changed, but I would never suggest an HP server for Linux.
If you're such a linux leader, where's the proper linux compatibility for my internal cardreader, wifi chip, and modem. What, no answer... yeah that's what I though.
finally the day has come where huge industry players are fighting over who is more badass with open source. 10 years ago people would have laughed at this idea.
-- http://www.criticalassets.com
Neo and Trinity have been loaded into the construct program, wearing boots, trenchcoats and sunglasses. Neo gets out his cell phone and talks to Tank.
Tank : 'kay..so what do you need..?...Besides a miracle..
Neo thinks about it.
Neo : 486s...lots of 486s.
As he says this, hundreds of rows of assorted blades appear, whooshing by Neo and Trinity as they stand in the centre.
Neo picks out a system.
Trinity : Neo, no one has ever done anything like this.
Neo turns to look at her, holding the 486.
Neo : That's why it's going to work.
He boots the 486.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
IBM already offers this, but I don't think you could afford to put one in your closet...
i nux/
http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/os/l
We just recently bought a half dozen Proliant ML370G4 machines, all dual processor 3.2GHz Xeons, 4GB memory, SmartArray 6402 raid controllers, filled with 73GB 15K rpm hot swap drives, and have redundant power supplies and cooling fans. These machines have been installed and in service a little over 6 months and already 4 of them have suffered hardware failures. The machines are fast as hell when they're running, but reliability is getting very questionable. I now wish that I'd chosen the Dell PowerEdge 2800's instead. I would've gotten two additional hotswap drive bays with those too. Proliants used to be legendary quality... built like army tanks. I have an ML370G3 and two ML350G3's that are absolute juggernauts. These newest G4 machines however are flimsy cheap Chinese junk. Half of the parts inside them are labelled "Foxconn" brand :-(. Dell's are pretty cheaply made nowadays too, but I have 4 PE2600's that while they seem built flimsy, have been running non-stop for over a year without a glitch... even with Windows 2000 Server operating system on them! (don't worry, they're not on the Internet :D )
From what I've seen lately, the last intel-based server hardware that's still built like heavy iron is IBM's stuff, but you pay a premium price for that.
... that at this stage of the game "Nondescript Old Beige Box In The Corner" still garners the most Linux server installation title... but that's not good marketing I suppose
[what?]
Doesn't most of what Linux cred HP have come from their acquisition of "the lab formerly known as DECWRL" via their acquisition of Compaq, and the projects Jon "Maddog" Hall started there?
They are cheaper to support...
Warrantees and service agreements, etc.
wdd
I would question HP's commitment in the Linux arena from a software point of view. For the last 12 months I have tried to migrate a Tru64 system to a pair of HP DL585 servers running RHEL 3.
Now the horsepower in the DL585's is immense compared to the Tru64 boxes, but the HP Insight Management software has proved pitiful. This software is pretty much required if you want to know if various parts of the hardware fail.
The Insight Management agents however caused us no end of problems in taking up too much resources.
For a start, I could crash the machine at will by copying around 2Gb of files around my disk configuration.
When this was fixed, we found that the Management Agents would chew up 25% of the CPU time of a dual Opteron setup despite the machine doing absolutely nothing!
This situation took a LONG time for HP to fix.
Now the machines are in the production environment and they hang at random (we think due to the crappy bonding software HP have for the dual NICs)
We would investigate this by getting the dumps written to a network device, but the bonding driver prevents this too.
We have seriously gone from pillar to post with HP on this.
I have no doubts about the power of the hardware, but don't rely on the software to pull you through!
Back in the day, we sent out tens of thousands (60k?) of mailers (4 pages + envelopes), all printed with the 6L. That cheap little thing churned 'em out just fine, with occasional toner refills. Too bad we didn't make any money, but at least we didn't spend a lot on a laser printer ;)
I believe the http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results. asp?resulttype=all
explains why people are using power servers for things, throw in the LPARs that run, AIX, LINUX, and AS400. If you have more then 2 servers, and want to share those unused dev/test CPU's and memory, pSeries boxes are the way to go.
Yes we love linux on little boxes, but with a few P570s loaded with multiple versions of Linux on Lpars you could go a lot farther then with the HP itanium which is quite a bit more expensive for the output numbers an oracle server will need.
Throw in that almost all nextversion gaming consoles will be sporting a power Cell chip system, dumping the Intel business to a producer that can lowball the market to death doesn't seem such a bad play.
didn't you bother noting the site hasn't been updated since 2002? LI is whoever throwing a financial bone to irrelevent Mad Dog these days. And it ain't HP or IBM.
The Lenovo deal had absolutely bupkis to do with servers. The PC business that IBM sold was losing money hand over fist. The PC division had absolutely no products in common with the server group. IBM even HELD ON to the part of the PC business that was making money, retail systems. The xSeries server line is integrated with the rest of the server group, and is quite profitable. What does the Lenovo deal have to do with anything?
IBM holds the #1 share in Blade Servers, and #2 overall in the Intel/AMD server space, AND the business makes money. Why on earth would they give it up?
SirWired
I have a hard time swallowing the idea that either IBM or HP sell more linux servers than Dell. Where I work, we buy them by the dozen. Thing is, we don't buy them with the OS pre-installed, because it's just a waste of money. Vendors never get stuff configured the way we'd want, so even if it did come with the OS, we'd do it over anyway. Nevermind not everyone wants to run Redhat.
Now as far as being a good linux citizen, and contributing back, Dell hasn't done much that I'm aware of. They've done a couple of Redhat specific tweaks of some management utilities specific to their hardware, but that's about all I can think of. Considering how much money Dell has, and how much money they make from this market, they really should do more. For example, it would be good for everyone, including Dell, if they funded more aggressive driver development for stuff like high-end SCSI, FC, SAS, etc. When that stuff gets tweaked right, then they can publish performance benchmarks showing how much more bang for the buck they can deliver. The potential performance of these boxes really isn't being exploited without better drivers.
Maybe because IBM themselves have stated that they intend to transform into a services company. Lets face it, the x86 server market it fiercly competitive and is not as profitable as you might think. There is way more money in services and far less overhead.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It was my post, and I didn't think it was funny. Except possibly the fact that I don't get many Funny mods, and then I got one, and then you took it away by pointing out it shouldn't have been funny. That's a painful kind of funny...
:)
But definitely the funniest part of that post.
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