Pentagon Creating A Database Of Students

needacoolnickname writes "The Washington Post is reporting that the Pentagon is working with a marketing firm to create a database of students ages 16 through college to help them identify recruits. A little chuckle from the Pentagon in the article: '...anyone can opt out of the system by providing detailed personal information that will be kept in a separate suppression file. That file will be matched with the full database regularly to ensure that those who do not wish to be contacted are not, according to the Pentagon.'"

Comments

the draft

[udderly]

When this fails to get enough recruits can the draft be far behind?

Re:the draft

[MalaclypseTheYounger]

You know, the draft wouldn't be so bad.

Try calling it "Mandatory Civil Service" instead.

Everyone (EVERYONE) who turns 18 goes into this "Mandatory Civil Service". You get trained to be a soldier, or a medic, or computers, engineer, something useful for the government/military. You stay in for a year or two. Then, from 19-20 years old until you're, oh I don't know, 25 or 30, you are obligated for an amount of time to go into service, much like the reserves. Say 4 weekends per year, 2 weeks per year. Adjust these number accordingly (age range, days served).

It would make our society a little 'tighter' and make people appreciate their freedoms a bit more.

(Try looking at Israel's culture/society, they use the aforementioned plan).

Re:the draft

[demachina]

"The military doesn't want the draft. They want more volunteers."

YEA. WHAT HE SAID. And if there aren't enough volunteers, we need to figure out how to "motivate" people to volunteer event if they dont want to :) Is a person a volunteer if they are coerced or tricked in to volunteering.

There is already a well documented trend of the DOD using fine print, trickery and out right coercion to prevent people already in the military and reserves from escaping when their contracted enlistment period is up. For all practical purposes many people already in the military and reserves ARE being drafted because they can't get out when they were supposed to.

Fact is the Army and Marines, their reserves and gaurds ARE missing their recruitment goals by a big margin and are now missing them every month and the popularity of the war in Iraq is plummeting. Eventually the DOD is going to run out of meat for the grinder. The Army and Marines the two services where the bulk of the sitting ducks being sent to Iraq come from. The Navy and Air Force are doing OK mostly because people who want to join the military know thats the best place to be to avoid ending up on the streets in Iraq.

Believe it or not most kids are smart enough to not want to end up in in an ugly urban guerilla war with no end in sight. A war where they would seldom see who is trying to kill them, where most of the natives hate them, and where lots of their peers are coming home in body bags, with burns or without limbs.

The all volunteer army is GREAT as long as you are never in a protracted shooting war, especially one based on lies and with no clear goal or end game. It simply wont work if Iraq turns in to another Vietnam. You simply wont get the volunteers needed to fight a dirty, messy war with no glory. You can get volunteers to race in on the tanks and declare victory in a week. You wont get volunteers to patrol Iraqi streets filled with an enemy you seldom see who are sniping at you and using IED's to blow your legs off.

Dont think it really matters if the military is structured for "volunteers" now. If people stop "volunteering" the DOD is screwed. Its either a full up draft with the political consequence to the people responsible(i.e. the Bush adminstration and the Republicans), back door drafts where you coerce and trick people in to the military and dont let them out which is basicly what we have now(the histroical term is Shanghai'ing people), or you cut and run on places like Iraq, and it probably collapses in to more of a smoldering hole in the ground than it already is and you just wasted half a trillion dollars and tens of thousands of dead and wounded on a failure.

Lucky for little George that he is a lame duck, because at this point it doesn't much matter how bad a job he does, we are stuck with him until 2008 unless someone acquires the balls to impeach him, which he most certainly deserves.

Re:the draft

[demachina]

The French did basicly just that in Algeria and Vietnam, Part 1. It was called the French Foreign Legion. They still lost both wars.

The U.S. is for all intents and purposes already doing it too, though they are using mercenaries under the misnomer of contractor. Blackwater is one company in particular which is supplying thousands of highly paid mercenaries, most of whom are ex special forces, trained by Uncle Sam at great expense, and at the first opportunity quit the Army to command 6 figure salaries as mercenaries ... errr ... contractors. I wager Blackwater takes plenty of foreign mercenaries too though I dont know for sure, and I'm sure they cost U.S. tax payers a small fortune to pay.

Halliburton/KBR is for all intents the same thing though not in a combat sense. They are basicly offered large sums of money to do all the jobs that used to be done by enlisted soldiers, cooking, cleaning and driving trucks in particular. Its a win because they dont cost the government the lifetime benefits package a soldier does, but the contracts are ripe for fraud and you cant count on contractors in a combat zone.

The French experience in Algeria is a really good case study for how Iraq might go. It was a dirty guerilla war in an arid Muslim country. The population absolutely and uniformly hated the French. Everything the French did to try to suppress the insurgency made the Algerians hate them more, and made the insurgency stronger. The Algerians tried org charts for the insurgency leadership like the U.S. does, and kidded themselves that as the crossed off the leaders they were crushing the insurgency. The fact is when everyone hates you, everytime you kill an insurgent 3 more spring up to take his or her place. You simply can't defeat an insurgency that is supported by a significant percentage of the population.

Well, Duh.

[American AC in Paris]

Of course the Pentagon is going to do this kind of thing. They are in desperate need of recruits. They're caught between a rock and a hard place: they're trying to fight a war that is unpopular with the majority of Americans, and a good chunk of those that do support it think that somebody other than themselves and their loved ones should be doing the actual fighting and dying part.

What do you do? Recruit, recruit, recruit like there's no tomorrow. Use every tool you can get your hands on. Raise the "financial incentives" of joining up--even if you were to double a grunt's pay, they'd still be waaaay cheaper than hiring another mercenary. Make lists. Get aggressive. Be persistent. Get every person you can lay your hands on.

One of the following things will most likely happen in the next few years:

1. We'll pour huge amounts of money into hiring more mercenary forces to augment our armed forces;
2. We'll reinstate the draft in one form or another;
3. We'll claim victory, pull our troops out, and hope that the Iraqis can sort it out themselves;
4. We'll claim victory, ensconce a substantial number of troops in hardened, remotely-located permanent bases, and hope that the Iraqis can sort it out themselves;
5. We'll get a massive surge in recruitment and will be able to meet our military needs with a full-strength volunteer service.
6. The insurgency will die and a stable Iraqi government will take hold.

The Pentagon would much rather have a healthy, full-strength, all-volunteer military force than an expensive, byzantine network of "independent contractors" doing more and more grunt work outside the scope of both military and civil law. To this end, they're gonna do everything in their power to meet their recruitment needs--and frankly, creating a database of students is pretty freakin' innocuous compared to some of the other recruiting shenanigans that have been going down lately...

Re:Well, Duh.

[dedeman]

I'll pick #1 and #4, here's why

#1 Offers an opportunity for the administration to funnel federal monies to private contracting "security" firms, allowing financial incentives for a great many civilians who are not bound by the same rules of military conduct that the soldiers are. It also allows for legal weapons testing. Is is any wonder why the current vice president was the former CEO of the largest conracting agency involved in the war effort?

#5 Even if we claim victory, or achieve victory, or some similar claim, it is (usually) habit to keep an occupying force in a conquered land. There are several bases in the south, Germany, Japan, and I believe we'll see more middle eastern strongholds, thus necessitating larger troop populations, contracting funtions, and *continuing larger military budgeting*. Yep.

The Pentagon would much rather have a healthy, full-strength, all-volunteer military force than an expensive, byzantine network of "independent contractors" doing more and more grunt work outside the scope of both military and civil law.

I don't know if I would necessarily agree with that, for reasons stated above, unless you mean specifically "the Pentagon", rather then the administration. You might be right about that, I'm not sure.

Re:Well, Duh.

[American AC in Paris]

I meant the Pentagon specifically--whether the force is hired, conscripted or voluntary is secondary to the aims of the administration. You can rest assured that the military leaders at the Pentagon would take a bona-fide U.S. soldier over a mercenary any day of the week.

I agree with you--I think #1 and #4 are our most likely outcomes. Hell, we've been working on the hardened, remote, permanent bases since the get-go.

This war is about many things--freedom, spreading democracy, oil, security, terrorism, removing despotic regimes, finishing old business, even petty revenge. They're all secondary and postfact, though, to the real motivator behind this war--power. At root, the war in Iraq is and has always been about America establishing and exercising power in a strategically and economically valuable region of the world. Go read The Project for the New American Century's September 2000 report on Rebuilding America's Defenses. Pay close attention to section III: Repositioning Today's Force. Notice anything eerily prescient?

It's a shame our leaders didn't feel confident enough in the merits of their plans to level with us in the first place. I bet they could have had far more success in their venture without all the smoke, mirrors and bullshit they used in lieu of being frank about what they were going about doing.

In other words

[Andy Dodd]

The Pentagon is making a database of the poorest and most underprivileged high school students in order to hook them in to military service.

At my high school, which was in a relatively wealthy county, there were almost never military recruiters, and very few students went into the military. Those that did would do so via the rather prestigious military colleges (U.S. Naval Academy, etc.).

Meanwhile, I have relatives that live in upstate New York. Their school district is in a relatively poor section of the country, and they have recruiters almost permanently stationed in the high schools, preying on the students. At this point, even if parents complain, the school can do nothing about the recruiters' presence due to the No Child Left Behind act.

Re:In other words

[ReadParse]

Yeah, but let's not forget that the US Military is a tremendous career opportunity for many people, as an alternative to trade school, minimum wage jobs, unemployment, etc. They take great care of you, the pay is good, and the benefits are extraordinary and last long after you leave the service. I got out almost 10 years ago (having served 5 years) and bought my first house on a VA government-guaranteed mortgage, and will probably buy my second house on another VA mortgage.

Is there a downside to all of these benefits? Well certainly. The purpose of the military, of course, is to fight wars. But if these kids study in school and can do well enough on the ASVAB test, they can get into the Air Force or the Navy, where their lives will be in much less immediate peril and where they can learn extremely useful technical skills.

As Americans, we're spoiled -- and it's easy to forget what actual poverty is like. In many countries, the poorest kids are the ones who cannot go to school because they can't afford it or because they must work to support their families. In America, most of the poor kids are excused from doing well in school because they're from disfunctional families, and that is called poverty. Do they have a TV? Of course. Telephone? Yes. Cable? Very often. Satellite? Big-screen? Designer clothes? You'd be surprised.

Ah, but do they have a part-time job and carry books home in hopes of maybe moving on to something better one day? Some do. But many don't. Military recruiters recognize the more limited future of these kids and that they have something to offer them. Military recruitment is usually a win/win proposition. Let's not forget how much service personnel GET from the US government. I'm one of them and I can attest to it.

RP

Re:In other words

[LnxAddct]

Well, although it might seem inhumane, the kids more likely to succeed in life *should* be left alone because they will form the economic and technological backbone of the country in decades to come. Those who are already "poor" and will most likely "fail" while being a drain on society will be better off fighting. If nothing else, they'll learn a thing or two. It is kind of like, "You can spend the rest of your life living in mediocrity and most likely wasting tax dollars through programs like welfare, or join us, learn to shape up, fight well, hopefully survive and leave in a few years with knowledge that you've never had before, which will help you get a better job and thus live a better life. We'll even help pay for college if you want." A lot of kids would be better off joining the forces (not everyone is infantry btw, there is alot more to do then just shoot at the enemy). Alot of other people are better off staying away from joining the forces and are better off either strengthening the country economically or even just regular programmers who are most likely going to be of more use coding some application to assist in fighting rather then actually fighting.
Regards,
Steve

your infosec on file

[null etc.]

A little chuckle from the Pentagon in the article: '...anyone can opt out of the system by providing detailed personal information that will be kept in a separate suppression file. That file will be matched with the full database regularly to ensure that those who do not wish to be contacted are not, according to the Pentagon.

For anyone who wonders why this would be necessary, let me give an example.

CapitalOne got it into their heads that they should send me a credit card application every week. After spending an hour trying to track down a telephone number that would let me speak with a CSR without having an account number, I asked them to stop mailing me. The CSR rep replied that the system takes 12 to 16 weeks to fully honor a request to not receive offers! Which is pretty funny, because I asked the rep "so if I sign up for the credit card today, you can take my name off the list, but if I just want you to stop sending me junk that someone can use to steal my identity, it takes 4 months?!?!" He didn't have a good answer.

Anyways, as soon as I move to a new address three months later, I started receiving two offers from CapitalOne every week! They obvious match solely on name and address.

I just don't feel like going through the same bollux again to get my address off the list. Sheesh.

Re:You are expendable pawns.

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt it, this is the pentagon recruiting. They want people they can trust to be loyal in the face of overwhelming opposition. In other words mindless "patriotic" zombies. Rich, poor, it doesn't matter. Likely candidates will be devoutly and unquestioningly religious, be a member of Future Business Leaders of America and also boy/girl scouts. They won't ask too many questions, and will do as they're told because it's the government asking. In other words, exactly the kinds of people we want getting shot at. This is a good thing folks. Darwin at work.

Re:You are expendable pawns.

[KD5YPT]

Well, like it or not, said Student B might actually welcome this scholarship if given the chance. It's not like they're going for mandatory enlistment, they just want to make more efficient recruitment system to raise the chance that they'll actually offer enlistment to people who might want them.

Of course, the extended amount of information they gather is worrying...

Re:Marketing? During the election they said...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but they told me I could go home 6 months ago. Maybe that got lost in the mail.

Anti-recruiting lists?

[smagruder]

Makes me wonder if the schools with cooperate with "anti-recruiters" who are trying to starve the armed forces so the U.S. won't also go into Iran or Syria based on yet another pack of Bush lies. Normally I would be opposed to such activity, but as long as we're invading countries illegally (i.e., as long as Bush is in office), this would seem to be a prudent effort.

Bring back the draft

[winkydink]

Make 2 yrs of government service mandatory and offer non-military options (Peace Corps, etc...) as well.

I think we will see a draft return sometime in the next few years if the military continues to fail to meet recruiting goals.

Re:Bring back the draft

[fishbowl]

"I think we will see a draft return sometime in the next few years if the military continues to fail to meet recruiting goals."

There are a few people in the camp of "things need to get a whole hell of a lot worse before people really start getting mad and taking action", who think a draft would be a step in the right direction.

There are also people who believe that a conscript army has a chance of becoming a revolutionary force that ends up cleaning up the mess.

Perhaps if they didn't treat recruits like

[antifoidulus]

children maybe they would have more luck. I almost enlisted in the army, but I wanted to talk it over with my family beforehand. I called and canceled my appointment only to have a recruiter call me up and try to play mind games in order to pressure me into joining. I played a game called "Propaganda" in Academic Games in high school, and I was identifying every single technique he was using. He was playing mind games with me like I was 12. If the Army wants to play games, let them play games. Meanwhile recruits will dwindle as they get treated like shit for the chance to die for Dick Cheney.

Re:New World Order

[TripMaster Monkey]

This has been going on for decades. Its called the Selective Service.

From the EPIC letter:

Despite the risk of identity theft, DOD proposes to collect SSNs on all high school students aged 16 - 18, all college students, all Selective Service System registrants, all Active Duty and Reserve members of the Armed Forces as well as several other large categories. While the size of any database is not an inherent flaw, any breach of security or change in policy will impact an enormous number of Americans. The size of the database also makes it an attractive target for identity thieves.

This is not Selective Service...this database is far more comprehensive than that.
Again, here's a link to the privacy advocates' letter to the D0D. You ought to peruse it...it's a very informative read.

Forget US schools. Mexico is a better option.

[christoofar]

I'm all in favor of the DREAM act. Since 1890, Texas has been dealing with a flood of illegal immigration, which didn't abate after the amnesty program in the 1980s.

Seriously, these are kids who aren't interested in the Service, and they're only signing up because they're being sweet talked into it like a crack whore lookin' for a fix. Soon after they're shipped off for BT do they realize what a mistake they've made.

So, where else is there a pool of semi-muscular blobs that can be turned into killing machines? There are two... a) the prison system and b) illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants want to become citizens. They keep saying when they come over that they'll just work for a few years and go back home. That never happens.

Why not convince these people to actually do something meaningful for a change and stop debasing wages? That's right! These pobrecitos who are picking our oranges and driving our trucks can make MUCH better money in the E3-E6 paygrade... WORLDS better than back in the coloñias or the barrio.

Let these immigrants prove their worth! In exchange for their service they get citizenship and GI eligibility.

Mexico benefits as well as the US here. The military fulfills its quotas and can stop harassing the preppy white kids in schools. Mexico's population declines to a level its government can support. Everybody wins (oh except the kids that won't join up... you get to fight for white collar jobs that haven't left for India).

Re:You are expendable pawns.

[wolfgang_spangler]

Dead on. And the poorer people eat it up. They see it as an avenue, perhaps the only one, from poverty. The government doesn't give two shits about them. They aren't likely to contribute much in taxes in their lifetime and they aren't likey to start a business which can help the economy. In short: they are a nuisance. The governments tell them how great they are and what a good thing it is to fight for your country. It's just glorified welfare with a bloody cost.
What a bunch of crap. The military can be a great way out of poverty. That doesn't mean joining the military will make you rich, but it:

• removes many from a lot of bad situations
• teaches important basics not installed in many poor, inner-city families
  • personal finance
  • personal responsibility
  • respect for others and yourself
  • honor
• provides excellent job skills for many
• can provide security clearances which translate into govt jobs

oh yeah, there is also that little added benefit of a trained military force being the only thing between you being able to post self-righteous crap like this and you being forced to obey the whims of some dictator.
And if you think Bush is a dictator, it really shows how ignorant and coddled you are in this country, protected by the troops which you disdain.

Opt-out == Opt-in

[Winterblink]

How much do you want to bet that those that opt-out of the recruitment database are automatically opted-in to a database of people to profile as to WHY they opted-out. :)

I love systems like this.

[dayid]

I love how people can just "assume" you want to take part in it - and then you have to go out of your way and jump through hoops to be able to "easily opt out." It's the same thing with freaking spam mail and all other crap like that.

Re:One step beyond..

[Anonymous Coward]

Some things I've noted during my time in service.

Army recruiters (the ones out there actually doing the recruiting) are often under pressure from their first sergeant to produce names, and have a certain quota for each month. This is a bad way to do it, in my opinion.

When I finished AIT (Advanced Individual Training, which is training for your specific job) I was able to get Hometown Recruiting. I didn't want to enlist anyone, or anything along those lines. I wanted the extra two weeks at home with my family.

When I reported for duty, I signed a counseling statement saying that I would come up with at least three "leads" within the first 72 hours, and that I must get at least two people to enlist while I was there, or else I would be put on leave for the amount that I had requested and then be sent to my first real duty station.

I play the good soldier, because damn it, I want to spend two weeks with my family. I was constantly pressured every day for leads, and was told to go through the LRL (Local Recruiter Listing, I believe -- Books that have the phone numbers, etc., of HS students that have graduated or are going to graduate) and call up any names that I recognize.

Myself and the others that are there on HRAP are sent out daily with anywhere from 200-600 fliers, and told to distribute them throughout neighborhoods and apartment complexes, (some of which are gated, which we were told to ignore) and place them on doors, etc.

(Fun note: Most of the time we went and got wasted at this one guy's house, and just trashed the fliers.)

Anyways. Recruiters are nefarious not only outside the Army, but within it as well for being... unethical, at best. (I will make a note, that not ALL recruiters are evil tools of the government. Some of them are downright awesome, and do the right thing.) The fact of the matter is, though, that they've got pressure from their chain of command to produce names. I guess that makes some of them not care how they get those names.

Re:You are expendable pawns.

[Hrvat]

"Not thinking" is not the same as "Not questioning every order the instant it is given".

I believe that there are caveats in the Rules of Engagement or whatever the military rule book is, where the soldier is REQUIRED not to obey the order.

It is obvious that you have not been in the military. The majority of thinking goes on down on the team and squad level. Usually the officers will say, "Take that bridge/street/group of houses". The squad/team leader (NCO usually) will draw up the plan of assault etc.

You can't go into combat if you can't rely on people around you to think, evaluate and act upon situations as they present themselves.

You also can't go into combat saying "WTF. I don't want to go down that street. Why do I have to go down that street?" when there is another team 2 blocks over that needs someone to flank the MG that has it pinned.

The time to question orders is up top, at the boundary between the politicians and the top brass, not on the front line.

Re:One step beyond..

[sgtrock]

As bad as this sounds, it used to be much, MUCH worse back in the late '70s. Back then, the All Volunteer Force was just getting off the ground. Also, many civilians really believed that anyone who wished to serve his or her country in uniform was either a latent baby killer, or a complete incompetent who couldn't make it in the 'real world'.

I was lucky enough to have an honest recruiter for the Navy warn me up front about what I'd be facing if I put the uniform on. However, once I reached boot camp I heard plenty of horror stories; lots of recruiters who lied about conditions, guys whose recruiters took the ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) for them, faked drug tests by recruiters, recruiters who lied on the paperwork about recruits' educational background, etc.

Why was this going on? Well, mostly because the Navy would severely punish sailors who did not meet their recruiting quota. When you have some guy with 15 years in uniform who was struggling just to support his family (on food stamps no less!), staring at the possibility of the loss of his pension because he's about to lose a stripe (which puts him below the minimum rank to be allowed to re-enlist to reach 20 years), he'll do what he has to to avoid it. When you have guys who are facing the possibility of time in the brig if they don't meet quota, they'll do what they have to to avoid it. And forget ever making chief petty officer if you get a letter of reprimand because you missed one monthly quota!

Because the risks to a career were so high, recruiting duty at the time was considered as unpaid hazardous duty by many. Sailors used to volunteer for back to back sea duty tours just to avoid it.

Re:There is not going to be a draft

[KlomDark]

Absolutely! I would join up in a heartbeat if it were a war on our own soil, or something honorably directly threatening. I would give my life for my country if I knew my death would have a direct effect.

However, I have no interest in risking even my little toe for these current punk-ass "world police" bullshit sand/oil wars.

Re:One step beyond..

[AnotherEscobar]

Actually, in looking at how I would go about homeschooling one of my kids, I found that I could create my own high school diploma for her when I had determined that she had graduated.
Now, I only began looking in to home schooling, and I am sure that someone more familiar with the subject could probably correct me, but I dont believe there is such a thing as a 'fake' high school diploma.

Re:Junk Mail

[HeXetic]

http://maddox.xmission.com/junk_the_junk.html

Re:One step beyond..

[Anonymous Coward]

"And forget ever making chief petty officer if

you get a letter of reprimand because you missed one monthly quota!"

Bingo. Happened to my dad. Despite glowing recommendations from his superiors, many commendations, and acing the chief's exam he was passed over every time. Before drawing recruiting duty he was a star. Afterwards he was an untouchable.

Recruiting damn near killed him too. His blood pressure went through the roof for those three years.

Re:One step beyond..

[Aqua OS X]

True, nevertheless, it's concerning to see that we've been slowly rolling backward over the past few years.