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eBay Starts Open-Source Community
Matt wrote to mention a MacWorld story discussing a new initiative by auction site eBay to open source parts of its search functionality, in order to expand their coder resources. From the article: " The software will be available under a new program called Community Codebase, which was announced at the eBay Developers Conference in San Jose, California, on Tuesday. The Community Codebase is free for all members of eBay's Developers Program and PayPal Developer Network. (Pay Pal is owned by eBay.) It allows individual developers and companies to access source code for various eBay and PayPal tools and applications. An example is a Java application that allows TiVo users to search and bid on items via their digital video recorder boxes. Other examples include a Firefox toolbar, various Pay Pal toolkits and an application used to extract information from Pay Pal's database and putting it into Microsoft Corp.'s Excel spreadsheet software."
Talk about stupid... eBay already sucks, so they want to share it.
What exactly is the definition of 'open source'. Could you open code to a specific community and still call it open source?
eBay to open source parts of its search functionality, in order to expand their coder resources.
Isn't this the same eBay that was suing people who were making auction search sites that linked to eBay items?
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
Currently eBay charges as little as a hundred dollars but up to $50,000 dollars before you can run your code against the production database. I think the open source move is a good one however some of us developers with limited resources won't be jumping on until it is "free as in beer".
EBay is a respected player in the business world. They are seen as an ecommerce model that works. When a "real" company with "real" profits suddenly starts looking to the Open Source community, it validates the Open Source model to investors, capitalists, etc...
The significance of this move is beyond EBay.
One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
Microsoft Corp.'s Excel spreadsheet software
I read that as "Microsoft Corp.'s Excellent spreadsheet software". I thought the world was going to end or something.
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
While I applaud the small amount of legitimacy this may add to the open source community, it appears this may be just a way to make money off the open source community rather than truly help it. Open source is free and always will be (unless you count the s**tload of work that goes into it). On the other hand, this could also be used to help open source people make some money back for their invaluable efforts. The cynic in me thinks it's the former though, not the ladder. Only time will tell.
This seems to be a trend now. After Google (and I think Yahoo and Amazon), MSN will be now under pressure to go somehow the open source road. They will probably vehemently protest, try resist, twist things their own way and explain how open source is bad, but they can't go against the tide and ultimately one day or another they will follow.
It allows individual developers and companies to access source code for various eBay and PayPal tools and applications.
Or, phrasing it another way, it allows Ebaypal to take advantage of work done for them for free by someone else.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Whenever I do a search on Ebay, I always find ridiculous auctions. Just do a search for a Powermac G5 and you'll see what I mean. There are inevitably those auctions with buy it now of $29 where they claim you'll get a system for free. Of course, I look past those but it would be nice if someone could write a moderation tool that would allow you to filter your results. Perhaps with ebay opening up their systems a bit, a crafty developer could go in and make changes such as this, which would markedly improve the ebay experience.
Finance tutorials and more! Understandfinance
Since he made this statement, it may be possible that he has something (no idea what) in mind to return to the "community." IMHO, it appears that he already knows that eBay is not likely to get something for nothing.
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
Hmm I see this trend more and more within the open source comunity, A company "Opens its Source" to the world, but it only opens small pecies of what it does, and/or puts it under restrictive licences that essentially say you have no ownership of any modified code ergo the orginating company owns copyright to all versions of the code that are made.
So what exactly IS the incentive to work on it, if all you are doing is ensuring that the company gets a better product, and that you have no legal right to implement the code without permission?
Weird. The E-Bay source code appeared on TPB yesterday. Coincidence?
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
If they opensourced their auction code it might be something, but to open source just the search part o f it seems like it would barely benefit the developer and most certainly benefit ebay. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but I don't think the value is their for the developer.
Ebay certainly doesn't make it intuitive to report suspicious/fraudulent auctions. I did a recent search for Canon 1ds Mark 1 cameras and I found one listed for about 2k under it's normal price. In looking at the seller's other items, I discovered about 60 high priced tech items ranging from miniDV camcorders to plasma monitors, all listed in lots of three and ending at the same time.
Checking the seller's previous ebay activity, it contained only small purchases of seeds and gardening supplies and then lay dormant for a year until suddenly about 60 high priced items showed up.
That took about 3 minutes of work to check out, but I had to spend another 20 minutes trying to figure out how to report a fraudulent auction to ebay.
I think they really just don't want to be bothered with policing their own site and responding to complaints, and that's pretty unfortunate as their service is amazingly efficient and well-liked in nearly every other respect.
:::: the insomniac's digest
Full disclosure: I work for eBay in the Developer Support Group.
What the Community Codebase is about is making it easier for new applications to go live that access eBay, not to open the eBay system's code, or to try to create an unpaid labor market for maintaining eBay's code.
There are around 1500 third party applications that use the eBay API suites to create new listings on eBay, etc. A couple of quick examples to get a feel are ChannelAdvisor (channeladvisor.com), SquareTrade (squaretrade.com) and a host of others.
Approximately 20% of all eBay listings are not listed through the eBay website but rather through these third-party applications. The goal of the Community Codebase and the changes to the Individual Tier of the eBay Developers Program is to make it easier to write applications that access eBay.
Hope this helps,
Bruce Thompson
Staff DTS Engineer
eBay Inc.
Who, me?
IANAT, but i'm sorry, i am so sick of major corporation taking advantage of the "open source" hype simply for the benefit of their business.
/me steps off box of detergent
it helps them in two ways right off the bat:
1. it's a marketing gimic, because the news gets spread (as here) and
2. it garners them a better image immediately, because regardless of whether a single line of code gets written, they look good for being so magnanimous.
and if it DOES get written, then you can add #3 to that list: free code for ___, inc.
free software should be a *given* -- not some special marketing campaign.
Sure they just decided to do it. Not at all prompted by a rival online payment system to their subsiduary company which doesn't have the best reputation.
Example quote:
"Analysts on Monday said the biggest and most immediate risk to PayPal from a Google payment system would be a cap on growth in PayPal's off-eBay business, prompting a 2 percent drop in eBay shares."
Hmmm, let's compare a vague promise to open 'parts' of search functionality (only to registered eBay and PayPal developers) to Google's Summer of Code shall we? Let's face it, eBay still don't look like they "get it" and I doubt this attempt to get free labour will gather much momentum.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Approximately 20% of all eBay listings are not listed through the eBay website but rather through these third-party applications.
Hello Bruce,
Could you perhaps list the third-party applications that use the eBay "backend"?
Many people, like myself, have been bitten by eBay, and bitten even harder by its evil sidekick Paypal, and have elected to stay clear away from it. If other honest-looking auction sites use eBay as a backend, I'd like very much to know who they are.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Hi Rosco,
It's not so much that there are other auction sites using eBay's backend but rather around 1500 applications of various sorts that provide services to eBay buyers and/or sellers. To get a sense of what's available, head over to the Solutions Directory for a list.
Cheers,
Bruce.
Who, me?
Mod parent up, so readers who browse at 4 or 5 can see a somewhat official response.
The Community Codebase is free for all members of eBay's Developers Program and PayPal Developer Network
If you have to be a member of some "developer program" or "developer network", then the code isn't open source. The term "Community Codebase" also suggests that it isn't open source, but that it is a program like Microsoft's "Shared Source" or Sun's "Community Source". Let's hope that eBay didn't mislabel a non-open source license as open source.
Even if the eBay code turns out to be truly open source, it is still closely tied to eBay's service. On balance, it's still better if such code is open sourced, but the decision for eBay to open source a bit of client code is a completely different business decision than, say, IBM or Intel open sourcing a compiler.
Companies like Sun, Microsoft, and (possibly) eBay seem to be trying hard to redefine the term open source for their own marketing purposes. Don't let them get away with it. A company that misapplies the term open source is being deceptive and should be condemned strongly.
(I suppose it isn't surprising that someone like McVoy would go along with this sort of thing; he has, after all, been trying to take advantage of the open source community as well.)
I see your points. And I admitt, that "eBay *only* takes" is not precisely enough to express it.
But my rationale on it is, that all these 3rd-party applications will be centered around the eBay-platform.
While improvements to these 3rd party apps will benefit the OSS-developers App as well as eBay, the "collective" effect of many improvements towards the single central platform will benefit eBay more, than those developers.
Of course, one can disagree to my rationale and certainly you will, arguing that there is no "aggregated" effect on the central platform.
I don't think it is realy a question who of us is right. What matters is, if the developers that participate in this project feel screewed or not.
If I where in your position I would prepare for some additional "incentive" for developers to participate. Doesn't neccessarily be direct payment, small discounts on the fees for the trades or even just some rewards for expecially intresting/usefull developments would certainly do.
Small goodies like that certainly give develpment some OSS additional boost, anyway.
eBay certainly isn't a street begger, that has to pass its had around and ask for gifts.
Ideally, an opensource initiative would support OpenOffice or export OASIS-format data.....
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
There's nothing wrong with them opening their APIs and code to developers, in fact it may prove very useful. Still, it shouldn't be mistaken for a great act of charity on their part.
I think they'd be unwilling to allow users to post comments on their largely unmoderated site for fear of libel lawsuits
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
Of course this is probably just another way of "yet another company" to exploit the programming community for their gain. They'll suddenly slam it closed once they get what they want.
Oh well.
Yet more examples of companies trying to abuse the Open Source community, thinking that we're all just milling around in groups waiting for things to do and projects to contribute to.
Sure, we'll get right on that... writing your code for you, for free, while you profit and make a business model out of it. Absolutely! Where do I sign up?
Palm is trying it, Sun is trying it, Linksys tried it, and thousands of other companies tried it. When are companies going to learn that we don't just write code in our spare time because we're bored.
We write code because it is either improves technology, or it is fun, interesting, or scratches an particular itch we have, or because we're getting paid to write it.
If you want us to help you improve your business model, or write your code for you... PAY US. You know, like you would any other developer who writes code for you. What particular itch does the eBay search engine scratch for us? Why should we help? How does this improve OUR community? How can WE use this technology?
The real reason is because they think the Open Source community is just a free consortium to "cherry pick" whomever they want to write their code for them. They can't afford to hire anyone, so they turn to us. Nice.
So here's the obligatory HOWTO: HOWTO Pay for Free Software.
Seriously, I strongly recommend that every company read it and understand how our community works.
"EBay is a respected player in the business world."
That's true, if you completely reverse the statement. EBay and, if I may say so, their satanic 'child' PayPal are a few of the worst companies I've ever had the displeasure of doing business with.
Starting with the illegitamate charge backs (PayPal) I've mentioned on Slashdot on my most recent post, poor customer service (PayPal & Ebay) in the form of not responding to emails, a nice little trick of charging for auctions that were canceled (eBay), cancelling an auction the day before for selling game box of World of Warcraft (eBay) and more. I really would hate to be someone who does a lot of business with them.
If eBay really has opened up some code and it is Open enough that you have the freedom, as you should, to take it and use it as you want then I look forward to competing products that will result. I'd guess that anyone could do customer service better then eBay and if they want to give out the source to tools that can help their competitors (and others) why not :).
That depends on the open source license. If they distribute the software under the GPL or LGPL, they may implicitly be licensing all necessary patents along with the software. That's another reason why the GPL and LGPL are good for you.
But I see some around here are still spreading that lie.
5 44316/
And it doesn't help when Russ Nelson claims to have the "moral authority" on what is Open Source
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=138002&cid=11
That is a very interesting, because the _main_ eBay search guy, Louis Monier (also the guy behind AltaVista technology), just announced he is leaving eBay and going to Google:
http://battellemedia.com/archives/001653.php
Simpy
IIRC, in order to access the "production" eBay servers with your third-party app, even through their published API's, you have to pay eBay hundreds of dollars to have someone "certify" your application. Anyone know if this policy is changing?
Can your IM do this?
Back a year ago or so, I tried without success to create a desktop app that could run Ebay searches. However, it was a very expensive thing to do and I was doing it free as an academic project, so I had to go the route of HTML parsing and all that jazz.
This is definitely a step in the right direction...
This sig donated to Pater. Long live
Strange this announcement should come after Google finally confirms the construction of their Wallet System. With all the hype built up around that project over the past few days, and the negative outlash towards Ebay during that time, its interesting they now announce their 'open source' release to the community.
"A war over religion is like fighting over who has the best imaginary friend."
Finally someone from PayPal is speaking up:
http://paypaldoesntsuck.blogspot.com/
Seriously, learn the facts. You ARE FDIC insured with PayPal.
It is, however, FDIC "pass-through" insured.
(i.e. the bank that actually holds the funds is FDIC insured, so if paypal folds, your money is still held in a FDIC insured account and would be eligible to be covered by FDIC insurance.
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
Maybe I can stop buying GUIDs with this new movement.
Coderz 4 Life
Would that be the same broken eBay Search that inexplicably alters the search string in some cases, that can't find items clearly up for auction, and that fails to find items clearly up for sale by a seller but that can't list them when pulling up all the auctions for the same seller's ID?
Offering to open up that stuff strikes me like Saddam offering to open-source his blueprint for better government.
Look at the bright side: there's always seppuku.
Hi Jen,
I'll hit your questions in order here.
First, if you have a commercial application then you do pay additional fees over and above the usual eBay fees for API calls. The amount of these fees varies depending on the membership tier, but averages out at about $2.00 per 1000 billable calls (billable calls are anything other than AddItem and RelistItem).
The way this is tracked is via the credentials sent with every API call. The first of these credentials is a Token that identifies the eBay userid on who's behalf the call is being made. Next are the Developer, Application and Certificate IDs that identify the application making the call.
The token is obtained using one of several methods all of which ultimately involve a redirect to the eBay signin page. This is done to allow eBay users to authorize your application to make calls for them without requiring them to reveal their password to your application.
The DevId, AppId and CertId are obtained via the developer program. When you first sign up a set of Sandbox Ids are generated automatically so you can immediately start trying things out in the Sandbox system (think of it as a testbed eBay system). Once your application is ready to go live there is a certification process (self-certification in the case of Individual Tier) after which Production Ids are generated.
Self certification involves filling out a short questionaire, which essentially asks you to promise you'll follow the rules. Self certification used to cost $100 but is now free. Commercial certification involves filling out a more involved document and submitting it for review by, well, me. Well, not just me, anyone on the DTS team may be reviewing it. The review may involve taking a look at the application itself, making design recommendations for how you are using the API and costs $200 as a one time fee.
So, the ultimate model you are asking about is this: every application has a set of certificates that are used to identify who's application is making the call. If you are going to distribute your application then you will also be distributing these keys. Do take steps to protect these keys! If someone malicious were to extract them from your application then they will be able to make API calls using your 10000 calls/month.
Hope this helps,
Bruce.
Who, me?
PayPal DOES support OSS-Developers.
According to the PEAR Development mailing list, PayPal is in fact willing to push some changes back to the community. According to this Zend press release, PayPal paid Zend, to make improvements to PEAR::SOAP package 0.9.0.
So for all of you PHP 4 developers, you might just owe PayPal for your ability to make SOAP-based web service calls.