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Iran Continues to Censor Internet Communications

eldawg writes "Iran has recently been in the news after electing a 'hardliner' president. But even previous 'liberal' Iranian governments have been putting together a sophisticated Internet filtering system to prevent their citizens from visiting 'questionable' websites and censoring dissent. An earlier posting at Slashdot outlined the crackdown on blogs, chat rooms and email communications. A more recent research paper from the OpenNet Initiative provides an update on the censoring activity in Iran. Reports indicate that the Iranian authorities are specifically targetting 'content in the local Farsi language using a filterning second only to China.' We know Cisco has played a large role in bulding the 'Great Firewall of China' but is the Iranian initiative homegrown?"

77 of 448 comments (clear)

  1. Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Seumas · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wonder if "freedom of information and communication" will ever become an internationally recognized human right? Maybe we'll invade another country in twenty years under the premise that their citizens are "deprived of a free press and subjected to a singular propagandic source of news?

    1. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Maybe we'll invade another country in twenty years under the premise that their citizens are "deprived of a free press and subjected to a singular propagandic source of news?

      By that logic and assuming things continue as they are, in 20 years we would have to invade ourselves.

      If things continue as they are, in 20 years the only "alternative" media (i.e., not owned and operated by corporate plutocrats) the USA might have is Pacifica Radio, and that's assuming there IS radio in 20 years or that it wasn't bought out by AirAmerica and its corporate sponsors.

      RS

      Things are so far gone, they're coming around looking like new. But it's not - it's just the same wage slavery in different clothes.

      --
      Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
    2. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Transcendent · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While we're at it, we'd take over Jerusalem again because we can. By that time, there would be enough backing in all the branches to do so.

      That is what scares me about the republican party... there's enough extremists packed in it that they're tearing up the line between religion and government, in which the founding fathers specifically put there to prevent the Christian Republic of America from forming.

      Don't get me wrong, there are tons of liberal wacko's too, but they're more about giving you more freedom to do what you want rather than forcing you to obey their views.

    3. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 4, Informative

      Right, because the liberal environmental terrorist wackos are all about giving you freedom instead of forcing you to obey their edicts about land use?

      There are a lot more socialist and communist we-want-to-run-your-life liberal wacko's out there than there are many of the peace-love-and-rock-n-roll just leave everyone alone crowd anymore.

      Especially the farther you get into politics, since politics tends to attract the control types, while the non-control types don't seem to desire the power as much.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    4. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by value_added · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Christian Republic of America

      Err, more correctly, Evangelical Protestant Christian Republic of America.

      Christians were (and remain) Christians long before anyone anyone had heard of Martin Luther, or before anyone thought of translating anything into English and binding it in soft-cover to thump and reinterpret.

      That's even before the schism that brought about the Catholics (the folks with the pointy hats) establishing themselves in Rome under a pope (the guy with the really big pointy hat), leaving the Orthodox (the incense burning bearded dudes dressed in black robes) to themselves in the East.

    5. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by kubrick · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe we'll invade another country in twenty years under the premise that their citizens are "deprived of a free press and subjected to a singular propagandic source of news?

      Only if there's enough oil there to make it worthwhile.

      --
      deus does not exist but if he does
    6. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Curtman · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Don't get me wrong, there are tons of liberal wacko's too"

      Can anyone tell me how liberal became a derogatory term in the U.S. ?

      I find this very strange every time I see it here.

    7. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by black+mariah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The same way Conservative did. People assign themselves a retarded ideology and preach it no matter how dumb. Stupidity breeds contempt.

      --
      'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
    8. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by andreyw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Single propagandic source of news? As is FOX, CNN, MSNBC,CBS, ..., qualify as "fair and balanced" news that matter?

      Whatever. I know some uptight ID-10T failure will mod this "flaimbait", but when was the last time our "free press" reported anything more than canned statments and irrelevant gossip? Moreover, when was the last time you actually looked forward to seeing the 9 PM news to learn about actual pressing North American and World news?

      Consider: Lacy Peterson, Lost boyscouts, Wacko-Jacko, family drama with that paralyzed person (as if this is the only person suffering), Iraq war "coverage", celebrity gossip, etc...

    9. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by danheskett · · Score: 2, Informative

      Pretty much it's George McGovern's fault. He was a Senator from South Dakota.

      He ran against Richard Nixon in the 1972 election on a peace at any costs platform, and proposed a generous minimum income welware program. He lost to Nixon even though most people personally detested the man even before his scandals hit the bigtime.

      And he lost, in a big way. McGovern lost by 22% in the popular vote and only carried two states, losing there 520 votes to 17.

      He ruined the name of "liberals" in America, by going as close as possible to out and out socialism.

      So now, liberal means "socialist", which people equate to "communist".

    10. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by suitepotato · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't get me wrong, there are tons of liberal wacko's too, but they're more about giving you more freedom to do what you want rather than forcing you to obey their views.

      Exactly the opposite is true. Leftists always proceed from a POV that they are more intelligent, enlightened, caring, warm, etc., than others and thus their ideas can, should, and must be followed or else you are a know-nothing imbecile who needs to be controlled for the good of society and yourself. They are the only ones who know what is going on and everyone else is stupid.

      They even feel free to engage in massive sneering religious intolerance, smearing Christians, treating religious Jews with condescention, and knocking aside peaceful Muslims in order to hold up radicals and terrorists as "authentic". They quite often proceed right past arrogance to "holy effrontery" without noticing how absurd they look.

      It wasn't conservatives who invented political correctness. At worst conservatives are given to annoying passive "everyone can survive or fail on their own with no help whatsoever" neglect. I say worst because the fiery ones are obviously laughable and despite portrayal by liberals to the contrary, have no real influence. Liberals more often embrace an arrogant refusal to accept anyone not bowing before their views and worshipping the ground they walk on and fight like mad to get their way no matter what the cost to others, as long as they win and their ideas are enshrined.

      Seems like the kind of mindset I see among Linux zealots who sputter and foam in befuddlement that the masses didn't listen to them five or more years ago and adopt Linux and put Microsoft out of business. Just to give it understanding for the /. overzealous. "But we're the techies and you should listen to us, because we know!"

      BTW, since when is it not hypocrisy to decry bigotry on one side, yet practice it freely on the other? Anti-Christian rhetoric on this board is fairly free flowing and thick and utterly without redeeming value. It has no proper place here. But like the rest of the incessant "we're smarter than you" leftist weenie nonsense, it seems to be part and parcel of the stereotype. It needs to stop, really. Or we can have these political discussions ad nauseum.

      --
      If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
    11. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by andreyw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you think today's evangelical closet-homo bible-thumpers have anything to do with Martin Luther and his sane schism from then-insane Church, you're off your chump... :-D

      In fact, I'm not sure why American Lutherans call themselves Lutherans anyway. They certainly have nothing to do with the European (particularly German) Lutheran, plus they seem tor reject most of Luther's teachings... Feh.

    12. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Curtman · · Score: 2

      "He ruined the name of "liberals" in America, by going as close as possible to out and out socialism."

      There's another one. Moderate socialism can be a good thing. Universal health care would be a great start.

    13. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by superpulpsicle · · Score: 2, Funny

      If an American is christian and don't support Bush, doesn't mean he/she is a dumbass. At least I hope you were kidding, since not supporting Bush is automatically +20 IQ... now that I am not kidding.

    14. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Stonehand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Go read a decent newspaper, or support your local public radio station. TV ain't the end-all, be-all.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    15. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Stonehand · · Score: 2, Informative

      You'll want to have a look at two recent Supreme Court rulings, then, in which the generally left-aligned statists such as Stevens and Ginsburg allied with "moderates" to officially sanction a vast expansion of government power.

      One, they ruled that the Federal government has jurisdiction over anything that *affects* interstate commerce. This is practically any activity on the planet, given how indirect they allow the chain to be.

      Two, they ruled that "public use" for the purposes of forcibly seizing property goes not only towards the obvious roles (turning private land into public land, such as for public roads) but justifies taking from one private owner and giving to another, if *some* benefit can be argued on behalf of the state such as an additional dollar of tax revenue.

      These decisions essentially steamroll over the concepts of private property and federalism.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    16. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Stonehand · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's a nonsensical rationale, since you can't practically steal a nation's oil through force without a *massive* occupation and incredibly secure logistics; the infrastructure required to transport vast volumes of liquid is simply too fragile in the age of ubiquituous explosives and AK-47s. You can, perhaps, threaten to remove a government if it refuses to comply, but if you actually remove it and leave a security vacuum, you're now stuck with securing the pipelines, roads for tankers, oil fields, and shipping terminals. That might be fine if you're waging total war with massive drafts and manpower on a Second World War scale, or if you have a vast and brutally repressive intelligence service operating there, but it's not too practical otherwise. That's in addition to the usual tendency of the war itself to degrade the infrastructure.

      Instead, it's usually the other way around: "no war" for oil, at least when the potentially targetted government is doing a reasonable job at maintaining sufficient order to keep the oil flowing. Consider, for instance, which nations argued most vehemently against war in Iraq, and intersect that list with the nations that had substantial oil contracts with Iraq just waiting for the sanctions to drop. If you want the oil, it may be the most economical to deal with a stable kleptocratic dictatorship and offer kickbacks to those in power, rather than a democracy that might insist on a fairer price or an unstable post-war mess in which oil extraction and transportation becomes much less safe.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    17. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by LMariachi · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Have you looked at the price of oil lately? It's not only Iraqi oil that's $60/bbl. The cost of extracting oil from the Alaskan North Slope or the Gulf of Mexico has not increased as a result of the ongoing unpleasantness in the Mideast, but the oil companies get to sell it for those inflated prices regardless.

      Of course it's not entirely so simple as "higher oil prices always lead to higher oil company profits," since at a certain point people will presumably curtail their consumption enough to offset the high margins with low volume. But that hasn't happened yet, at least not in the USA, and until they find out where that point is, expensiver is better.

    18. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by kotku · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Moreover, when was the last time you actually looked forward to seeing the 9 PM news to learn about actual pressing North American and World news?

      When was the last time you read anything *pressing* on slashdot: Google, Bittorrent, Google Apple, Evil Microsoft, Star Wars, Google, Chip Overclocking, Google, Ipod, Ipod, Ipod, Ipod, It aint stealing it's copyright infringement bahhhhhh! .......

      --
      The bikini - security through obscurity since 1943
    19. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by cahiha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Christians were (and remain) Christians long before anyone anyone had heard of Martin Luther, or before anyone thought of translating anything into English and binding it in soft-cover to thump and reinterpret.

      The church that Luther rebelled against was even nuttier, more intolerant, and more violent than Luther himself.

      There are moderate and moral branches of Christianity, but Catholicism, traditional Lutheranism, Calvinism, and modern "evangelical Christians" are not among them.

    20. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's because today's leftists are not what a leftist is supposed to be. This Page Says that liberal means "Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry." That's what liberalism and leftism should really be. It means to look ahead to new ideas and attempt to reform the old problems.

      Yes, Democrats in congress piss me off too. Just like Republicans. It's been a long time since we've had any real liberalism/progressiveism in congress, and most people who label themselves as leftists are apologists for the corporate lapdog leaders.

      I too think the religious smearing is wrong. I feel far too many people have failed to recognise that just because people who follow a teching don't live up it doesn't mean there's something wrong with the teaching. I'm no Christian but there's plenty of Wisdom in the Bible - and other religious books as well.

      Of course, these are my opinions. They may not necessiarially be right for anyone else but me.

    21. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful
      (50% of all marriages end in divorce, the vast majority of which are initiated by the female)
      You say that like its a bad thing ... maybe its because the vast majority of men worldwide are neanderthal chest-thumping patriarchal assholes who are too proud/stubborn/stupid/control freak to admit they've made a mistake, but in some countries women have won the right to tell them to shove it.

      Divorce is an admission of having made a mistake. Prohibiting divorce won't suddenly fix the mistake - it just lets it fester.

      Lets substitute "women" for Americans.

      Oh yes, women are free all right. They all work in jobs they hate, have no free time to do anything but watch wretched, depraved television shows produced by a handful of companies dedicated to exploiting human vulnerabilies

      -----

      Yeah, women are free alright. They are free to do exactly what they are told. They proclaim their nihilistic values to the world, relishing in their freedom of speech but no one hears them; they can do nothing but whimper.

      Women live in fear constantly. Fear of crime, fear of how to raise or maintain their family, fear of losing their jobs, fear of what soul sucking television show they will miss next. Its a wretched existence
      ... and it can be applied to any group, not just Americans, or women. Life isn't perfect. but I'd bet there'd be fewer wars if we didn't have a bunch of guys in positions of power posturing for history or avenging their fathers political record.
    22. Re:Ain't nuthin' propa about your propaganda! by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How many people leave Iran and other theocracies to come to America each year? A fair few I'd expect. If the US let people in, and the countries they were in let them out, you'd see a lot more.

      How many people leave America to go to a theocracy? John Walker Lindh and a few other nutcases.

      Free societies are *better* than less free ones, not just different - if you don't believe that then you don't believe in anything.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  2. Is'nt americas working against Democracy by anandpur · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Cisco built firewall for china and many other cos. helped china in a way that is in use against people who are working for Democratic or other free government. Then Microsoft censored contents for China. Now american cos. are working against the peoples of Iran ?!!!!

    1. Re:Is'nt americas working against Democracy by e9th · · Score: 5, Funny

      Cisco just wanted to be able to say they built the "Great Firewall of China"

    2. Re:Is'nt americas working against Democracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The ONI report mentions Secure Computing's SmartFilter as the primary means of filtering, http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/cmp/20050 624/tc_cmp/164902259but the company denies ever selling a license to Iran.

    3. Re:Is'nt americas working against Democracy by terratech · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No one can be the servent of two masters. If you love money, you will be indifferent to freedom. If you love freedom, you will be indifferent to money. I think so, anyway.

  3. Filed under... by Spetiam · · Score: 3, Funny

    This must have been accepted under the "Stuff that matters," because it certainly isn't news...

  4. oh no! by ImaLamer · · Score: 2, Funny

    This just in:

    Tyranny extends to all forms of communication!

    Am I to act suprised?

  5. Insensitive clods! by 77Punker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So Iran centric! What about the rest of the world?

  6. Re:1 Word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Tor is easily detected and/or blocked.

  7. Opressive regimes by raider_red · · Score: 4, Funny

    So this is almost as oppressive as, say, Utah?

    --
    It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
    1. Re:Opressive regimes by Dr+Kool,+PhD · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not even close. The Utah law mandates that ISPs provide filtering software to those who ask for it. In Iran, your browsing is filtered whether you like it or not. In addition, I don't seem to recall stories of women being stoned in Utah for having pre-marital sex.

      Understand the difference?

    2. Re:Opressive regimes by bearclaw · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You should read "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. It is a good book about religious dogma and why it threatens to destroy the world.

      The premise is that rational debate on religion is stifled under the guise of tolerance. If I say that Christians are backwards because they believe someone walked on water, I'll be labeled intolerant. If I say Islam is a violent religion that opresses women, and rational thought, I'll be labeled intolerant.

      If someone says the world is flat, and I say they are wrong, I'm not labeled intolerant.

      What's the difference?

      --
      -- bearclaw
  8. It means that the government's scared by tyates · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Monitoring internal communications is about catching potential dissenters and organizers of course, but is also about promoting self-censorship. When people know their communications are monitored, they're less likely to say anything negative about the government. That's why the govt makes no attempt to hide the monitoring.
    I would say that this is just a sign that the government's scared of their own people and the potential for an uprising. (Which makes sense given that they were revolutionaries themselves.)

    --
    Tristan Yates
  9. /. iran by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    would slashdotting iran be considered an act of war? who cares, gimme a link.

  10. No: it's Iranians working against Democracy by lheal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Americans are just doing what the client wants, if they are doing anything at all. That's not in the same league as setting the policy, which is certainly coming from Iran.

    Ask yourself this: if the Iranians didn't want the censorship, would American companies be helping them do it, if they even are? No, of course not.

    And probably if there are people at Cisco doing any dirty work, they are Iranian, or mid-eastern, anyway. Don't jump to the conclusion that just because the company is American everyone who knows their OS has to be American, too.

    --
    Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
    1. Re:No: it's Iranians working against Democracy by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmond Burke

      There is no difference between setting the policy and implementing it. "Someone else would have done it anyway" is not an excuse. Selling them hardware, much less helping them implement it (like they did in China) makes them equally culpable. Shit like that should not be legal.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:No: it's Iranians working against Democracy by darkonc · · Score: 3, Insightful
      More precisely: If everybody started saying "no" to these kinds of things, there would be no 'somebody else' to do it anyways. At the very least, the choices of people and/or companies willing to do it would be very small and (hopefully) very incapable).

      In the '80s, the US was providing technology and supplies to Saddam's chemical weapons factories. Now, the US is cleaning up the mess, with body parts of it's own young. What goes around, comes around.

      To quote the Regans: "Just Say NO!"

      --
      Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
    3. Re:No: it's Iranians working against Democracy by Ours · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are so right. No mather how hard it is, I refuse to do work for customers I consider unetical. For now I say "no" when my employer asks me to work for a tabacco company. I would do the same with even more pride if it was weapons/military or a project that goes against what I beleive is right. What kind of a person would I be if I gave up on my beliefs just for money?

      --
      "You superiour intellect is no match for our puny weapons" - The Simpsons
  11. Iran vs. the US by CyborgWarrior · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Alright, I haven't RTFA yet, but if this is news that Iran is censoring the Net then I dont think it's anything new. There have been a number of recent events that are using the media to direct public attention against Iran now (the most recent of which is probably Rumsfeld's Slam of their elections). As a concerned American citizen who is fast losing faith in the honor of his government, I think this is a ploy, to direct the attention of world citizens, and especially US citizens away from our own flaws and toward the flaws of other countries.

    Anybody who read the article a few days ago about the new use of eminent domain can see that the US government has major problems with the way it functions. Instead of anybody pointing out the US censors information also, we all hurry to jump on the band wagon to single out and bash Iran. No, they (the US government) don't prevent you from searching for certain words or anything, at least not yet, but they do force the removal of websites that portray a view contrary to what they want the public to know: see http://www.67cshdocs.com/, a blog that didn't disclose any classified information, but showed you what was really going on on the US war fronts, but was shut down by the government. I'm an American citizen and very patriotic, but I'm not blind. Our government is using the media. No, I'm not saying they are controlling /. or any other news source, I'm saying the media has become the lap dogs who go when the government says fetch.

    I don't approve of Iranian censorship. I don't approve of censorship of any sort. But it would be foolish of anyone to believe that the "axis of evil" are the only ones who do this. They simply do not have the size and power to cover up for the mselves and direct public attention elsewhere.

    Just my two cents....

    --
    If you can't say something nice, make sure you have something heavy to throw.
    1. Re:Iran vs. the US by eclectro · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem with 67cshdocs.com is that he is an Army physician.

      If you are in the Army, they pretty much can tell you what to do (or what not to say).

      Unlike the general population that can say anything it wants.

      Besides, the truth about the Iraq war and the lies it was/is based upon is clearly evident to anyone who is not a Dubya fanboy.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  12. of course, what do you expect from a religious... by Rams�s+Morales · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...government? Hopefully this will serve as a warning to countries that are forgetting about what separation of church and state means. Although it is more likely that it will serve as motivation to eliminate separation of church and state :-(

  13. I don't see the problem by John+Seminal · · Score: 2, Insightful
    But even previous 'liberal' Iranian governments have been putting together a sophisticated Internet filtering system to prevent their citizens from visiting 'questionable' websites and censoring dissent.

    Who ever said that every country on the planet must have USA values?

    Maybe the people of Iran don't want to watch the stuff we do. Does 1 person who wants to see that content have the right to tell 1,000,000 other people to put up with his crap?

    Even in the USA we have community standards. There are some small pockets inside the USA where it is illegal for adult companies to send DVD's. There are places in the USA where the communities want old fashioned values, they want to be able to keep the front door unlocked at night.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

  14. It happened in 1948... by ImaLamer · · Score: 5, Informative
    The UN's "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" states (Article 19):
    Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
    http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

    Just saying...
    1. Re:It happened in 1948... by ImaLamer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      kick China out for censoring their citizens overtly

      Well, it's not that easy - as most things in politics. The point of having China in the UN is two-fold: one so we can stop them from doing things to other peoples; two so that we include them (rightfully) among the other superpowers. If you don't think China is a superpower, then you don't understand why it is so hard to force change on them.

      I don't agree with what they are doing to their citizens, and in a perfect world we would put a stop to it - but it isn't as easy as it sounds. Kicking China out of the UN would have the same effect as America leaving the UN: World War III. All bets are off and the world starts looking like Europe before World War II.

      But why not go into Darfur? Why not hold Saudi Arabia to the same standards? Saudi Arabia is a member of the United Nations and executes innocent people by the hundreds weekly. Why not stop all forms of tyranny everywhere? Because it isn't practical. When we (liberals) were trying to do it we were told to stop trying to save the world - now saving the world is lead policy to NeoConservatives (by their own admissions, see: BBC's The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear).

      Why not start to right the wrongs at home?
      http://www.globalissues.org/HumanRights/Abuses/USA .asp

      Even China thinks we have problems:
      http://english.people.com.cn/200503/03/eng20050303 _175406.html

      Of course, I'm a "crazy liberal" when I start to talk about making America better. Let's start with things we *can* change...

  15. No different than the US by tgraupmann · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How is this different than what the USA does? True the USA let's its citizens speak freely. However, the government does control the flow of information to its citizens via the media. Just pick up a newspaper in Canada and the USA and you can see differences.

    1. Re:No different than the US by John+Seminal · · Score: 4, Insightful
      How is this different than what the USA does? True the USA let's its citizens speak freely. However, the government does control the flow of information to its citizens via the media. Just pick up a newspaper in Canada and the USA and you can see differences.

      In the USA free speech is only possible with money. Look at elections, the candidates with the most money wins most of the time. And whenever there is a law which tries to limit how much money special interest groups can give to candidates, the courts say that money is speech, and they throw those laws out.

      How much does a US Senate seat cost? 7 Million dollars? A US Congressional seat is over 1 Million dollars. Who can get this kind of cash? How? If I raise $200,000 in a fund raiser for a candidate, and that candidate wins, how much of an ear do I get? How much influance? What if I am not even from his state, will he take my call over a local constituent? I bet if I call him and say "Law Z is being voted on tomorrow, and I would really like to see you vote for it". If he does not get my $200,000 the next time, he might not win. What does he do?

      There is no free speech in the USA. In the USA there is SPAM from advertising, it drowns out everything else. 10 minutes of sit coms or reality TV followed by 4 minutes of commercials. If I was more cynical, I would wonder if they were trying to train my brain to accept information in small tiny sized nuggets.

      --

      Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    2. Re:No different than the US by tgraupmann · · Score: 2, Informative

      Where does the money come from... most likely the WTO. The last thing I heard were that the elections weren't actually fraud. Instead the scheme was brilliant. I'm not sure how all the extra convicts even voted, that wasn't part of the plan. In areas where Bush was predicted to win, they just added extra polling boths. In areas where he expected to loose, limit the polling boths so people would more likely not want to wait and line and walk away. And this strategy is completely legal. I think we need a few ammendments to fix this...

    3. Re:No different than the US by John+Seminal · · Score: 2, Informative
      In areas where Bush was predicted to win, they just added extra polling boths. In areas where he expected to loose, limit the polling boths so people would more likely not want to wait and line and walk away.

      This happened in the primaries in South Carolina. John McCain unexpectedly beat Bush in the previous primary. McCain, a republican, was getting lots of votes from independents and democrats. McCain was also a vet from the Vietnam war and highly respected because as a prisioner of war, his father who was an navy admeral could have gotten him freed. But McCain said he would rather stay in a prision than compromise his country or their values. You can take that either way, as supporting something good or bad, but the one thing you can not argue is he was a man of conviction. When it came time, his opinions really meant something to him. And South Carolina has one of the largest populations of veterans in the USA. Bush was worried they would vote for McCain, because he actually served and paid a high price for his service.

      So what happened? The primary system was ran by volunteers, ordinary people who show up at the polls so people can vote. Bush had people register to voluneteer at polling places in black communities, where there were more democrats. When it came time to open the polls, none of the volunteers showed up. The polling places never opened, instead there were signs telling people to drive to the next county to vote. McCain lost that state, and all the steam from his last win. Bush went on to win with one of the largest war chests ever.

      If McCain would have won South Carolina, he would have been able to raise more money. Bush would have lost some potential donors money. McCain went on to win other states after that, Michigan and others, but never could raise enough money to continue.

      --

      Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    4. Re:No different than the US by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is no free speech in the USA.

      And you are not presently reading this message either. Slashdot is a figment of your imagination.

      10 minutes of sit coms or reality TV followed by 4 minutes of commercials. If I was more cynical, I would wonder if they were trying to train my brain to accept information in small tiny sized nuggets.

      Maybe Steve Jobs has the answer:

      When you're young, you look at television and think: There's a conspiracy. The networks have conspired to dumb us down. But when you get a little older, you realize that's not true. The networks are in business to give people exactly what they want. That's a far more depressing thought. Conspiracy is optimistic! You can shoot the bastards! We can have a revolution! But the networks are really in business to give people what they want. It's the truth.

      In short: most people are dumb and demand to stay that way.

  16. Another thing to keep in mind by Raul654 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The average joe in Iran *hates* the mullahs. Unlike most other Arab governments (which encourage people to blame and hate the US for all of their home-brewed problems) the Iranian government has no easy scapegoat. (And 36 years of economic deprivation is a lot to answer for) That's why the people in power are so afraid of revolution.

    --


    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
    --E.C. Stanton
  17. Actually by xquark · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Its an American software maker that is providing the software solutions
    for such large scale filtering.

    To be honest, the company has stated that they do not have an clients
    representing the Iranian government.

    This leads one to conclude that the software is either being used illegally
    or a 3rd party is interfacing between the company and the country.

    regardless, filtering of the internet for Iranians will be here for sometime
    yet, though through experience i have seen that those that want to circumvent
    the system, easily can. and there aren't many that want to but can't :)

    Arash Partow

    --
    Arash Partow's Philosophy: Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
    1. Re:Actually by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Any American company providing these kinds of services to an oppressive regime like Iran, China, North Korea, or what have you should have its corporate officers clapped in irons and dragged to The Hague. Once there, they should be sentenced to death for crimes against humanity and hanged. Slowly, like the Nazi officers hanged at Nuremburg. Before being hanged, though, they should be stripped of their American citizenship.

      --
      I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
  18. Parent example of anti-US relativism by swb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not that there aren't valid things the U.S. government does that are, broadly, "anti-freedom". But drawing a parallel between eminent domain and the actions of a totalitarian theocracy (despite it's elections, Iran remains dominated by the Revolutionary Guard and its supreme religious leader) and saying "The US is just as bad" is foolish and naive.

    Sure, the U.S. government (or, more precisely, a small number of members of the U.S. government) are, time and again, doing something stupid that isn't what you'd expect of a free country, and the examples go back to the founding of the country (counting slaves as 2/3 of a person, etc). Things like Jim Crowe, Viet Nam, Watergate, Iran/Contra, etc etc.

    But almost without exception these events are noted in the press, analyzed, criticized, written about by thousands in letters to the editor, protested in the street and very often -- tada -- CHANGED. Civil rights act, voting rights act, Nixon's impeachment, Iran/Contra hearings. And no secret police organization decended on private citizens and beat them, impisoned or tortured them for having an opinion contrary to the government or its policies.

    Are we perfect? No way. Are we more free than just about any other place? Absolutely. Will we continue to make missteps from time to time? Sure. Human nature isn't always pretty.

    You can be a pessimist and argue that evidence points to a declining level of freedom and government accountability. Maybe. But that hardly means that we're even comperable to North Korea, Iran, Syria, or any of a number of other totalitarian/dicatorial/theocratic societies.

    1. Re:Parent example of anti-US relativism by tbradshaw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or perhaps, more importantly, not yet.

  19. Re:Iran didn't "elect" anyone by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First of all this is not well researched at all. It is typical NR bullshit, a bunch of anecdotal evidence from "reliable unnamed sources". Oh and add some tricks meant to mislead the reader, such as the one where he tries to make a blogger quote look like the quote of a leading Iranian newspaper. As I said, typical NR bullshit.

    Don't get me wrong I know there is no democracy in Iran, mostly because the president (whoever he is) does not have real power -- real power is still held by religous institutions and the ayatolah.

    But that is no reason to confuse the NR with good journalists.

    As far as "Regime change" goes, we know very well that does not help democracy, it will just replace rule by ayatollah by rule by the Pentagon.

  20. Re:you're fscking imperialists by anitha+cn- · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most people from Iran I know don't consider censorship a part of their culture. It could be that the people who choose to immigrate to Canada are more likely to want more rights than others, but I suspect many people in Iran feel the same. I think the desire for free speech and access to information is pretty much constant everywhere. It seems in every country there are those who want to limit this, and those who don't. Just because censorship is winning does not mean it's a part of their culture, or that everybody wants that.

  21. You don't see because you are blind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Maybe the people of Iran don't want to watch the stuff we do. Does 1 person who wants to see that content have the right to tell 1,000,000 other people to put up with his crap?


    How is having access to information forcing others to put up with your "crap" Unless someone is forcing you to view information or material against your will, why should you care what they are doing?

    Or are you one of those people that finds the very existance of opinions that differ from yours offensive?

    There are places in the USA where the communities want old fashioned values, they want to be able to keep the front door unlocked at night.


    What does the restriction of information have to do with locking your doors?
  22. Come down off that high horse before you get hurt by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Insightful

    By that logic and assuming things continue as they are, in 20 years we would have to invade ourselves.

    If things continue as they are, in 20 years the only "alternative" media (i.e., not owned and operated by corporate plutocrats) the USA might have is Pacifica Radio, and that's assuming there IS radio in 20 years or that it wasn't bought out by AirAmerica and its corporate sponsors.


    Oh come on man. The US has blogs and media of all stripes and flavors coming out the wazoo. There simply is not censorship here even remotely similar to the horrible things that take place elsewhere, and to even hint we are close at it is to demean those that suffer from REAL censorship. Have you been arrested and thrown in prison and then beaten for suggesting you do not like the president? I don't think so. And in twenty years it will most likely be the same, only more so. I'm not likley in twenty years to be bricking up my old copies of Reason behind a wall so the governement can't find them.

    I just cannot stand to see people use the argument that America is the next Facist state when they obviously have no idea what the hell that really means or what happens when you are really in one.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  23. Re: Anti-US Relativisim by CyborgWarrior · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I understand that I am using "anti-US relativism" in my argument, but I am using it because the media is so far biased in favor of pro-US relativism instead and I believe it important to express alternative view points. That was pretty much the entire point of my post. I realize I do not have the best examples listed.

    As for press coverage of scandals within the United States, there are two inherent flaws in this belief: first of all, if the mainstream media does not focus on it, then how would the general public know that it happened at all? They wouldn't! This sounds all conspiracy-theory and theoretical on the surface, but my favorite example is the Chinagate scandal. Ask your average citizen walking out the door of your local supermarket about it and I can guarantee that 49 out of 50 or more will respond with a blank look. I know because I've tried it for a history class.

    For those not in the loop with this, the Chinagate scandal was the event that was manipulated by the government and the press to become the stupid and superficial Monica Lewinsky scandal. It occurred in the mid-90's and it boils down to Bill Clinton providing China with classified US nuclear technologies and bringing them up to a full scale threat. Regardless of his reasons for doing so, the press got ahold of this in the mid 90's and began printing stories.

    The 'letters to the editor' that you speak of were beginning to come off the home desks of the American public. But there was a problem: neither of the two major parties in the US wanted the public to know about this!! The democrats of course because Clinton was in office and the blame would fall partly on his shoulders. The Republicans because Bush Sr. had been doing the same thing!! Of course it would be disasterous to both parties if the public knew they were both involved with it, so both parties wanted it hushed. The result: the Monica Lewinsky scandal grabs American attention instead. The press did not have to be forcefully silenced or censored: they chose to write about those stories on their own, but they were manipulated into that position by politicians. This how the government runs its censorship.

    The Chinagate scandal blew over. You can still find it from third-party sources all over the web, but it never really got the public!! If the government can censor something like that, then what is to stop them from using the same means to censor other events? None.

    And I am being the pessimist here and pointing at our declining freedoms. You say that we're not even comparable to the Axis of Evil, etc, and I would like this to remain true. The only way for it to continue, however, is for people like me to point out our own flaws. If the American public remains in the dark and directing their attention toward other countries, then by the time people like yourself believe that we ARE comparable, it will be far too late!

    As for the "secret police" argument, I say to you that if a single American citizen is held by his own government against his will, without evidence and because he has stated views contrary to those of the US government, then it is just as bad as the many who are suppressed in other countries. One is one too many. But guess what? It happens! That one actually gets to the news fairly regularly! But does the public care? No, because the media soon directs their attention to the evil OTHER COUNTRIES.

    It is you, my friend, who are foolish and naïve to argue that there is not a parallel between the US and these other countries. The US may not be "just as bad", but without vigilant citizens, it will be.

    --
    If you can't say something nice, make sure you have something heavy to throw.
  24. Re:And I should care because? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here is why we should care:

    1- We cannot judge a whole nation based on the ideologies and policies of their leaders, especially when those leaders are not in power based on the choice of people.
    2- Many times US money and policies were the main reason behind those leaders coming to power or (keeping) their power.
    3- The ideologies of the people are in many ways greatly influenced by their controlled media, and free information means that these people can see the bigger picture and make well informed decisions (which is not necessarily in favor of the US)
    4- If the people in these nations hate the US, while may not be completely rational, I believe they have good reason to do so. They don't hate us because they are retards and fuckheads as our media is trying to convery to us. They have good reason to do so and it's a direct result of our policies in the past decades to maintain absolute power and our Machiavellic way of dealing with things.
    5- If we believe we are the bastion of democracy and freedom, we carry a responsibility towards the world to bring them those values. And that doesn't necessarily mean invading them and throwing bombs allover their homes.

  25. Re:no shit! by hunterx11 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have to admit, I don't have the guts to admire beheading people for their religious beliefs. Maybe I'm just a spineless, moralistic, Eurocentric pig. Or maybe I'm a human being and I believe that all humans, everywhere deserve to be according basic rights, and that governments can only be legitimate insofar as they protect those rights. Installing the Shah was wrong, and it had nothing to do with the rights of the Iranian people. That doesn't make their current theocracy any more justified. People of character will speak out against human rights violations everywhere, both in their own countries and in other countries.

    --
    English is easier said than done.
  26. Re:universal human rights by John+Seminal · · Score: 2, Insightful
    do you understand the difference between an american perspective and a world persepctive?

    Once again, I ask, what is a world perspective? Who decides? You? Your group of people? Or my group of people? How about the people that live together?

    There is no world perspective. There never will be. You will have a hard time getting people who live in the same area, with the same religion, to agree to a complete set of values. Now try and toss in a value that is incompatibe with their beliefs.

    I'll give you an example. Women who must wear cloth that covers their whole body in many muslim areas. Is that evil? Is it against human values, or against your values? Many muslim women move to the USA, and continue to wear those dresses that cover the body and face. Were they brainwashed? Are they stupid? Or do they have values that are different than yours.

    a nationality is a tribe, a false arbitrary geopolitical boundary

    I disagree. A nationality is more than that. It is a common family. It is history. It is my grandfather living next door to your grandfather, and about all of us sharing some values in common. If you and I today decide we want values different than what our grandparents had, that is our right. But if someone from a different part of the world wants to change us, that is wrong.

    People feel better when they live next to others with a common idea about life and happiness. I doubt a priest would have a happy life next to a porn star. If my community is more like the priest, than that is our right. If your community is more like the porn star, that is your right.

    What it comes down to is self determination. People have a right to pick their own lives. That does not include having a different country destabalize your economy or force different viewpoints.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

  27. Taiwan: Villian Behind the Scenes by reporter · · Score: 2, Informative
    The startling surprise is that, in January of 2005, Washington identified a Taiwanese company as one of the culprits assisting the Iranian military. Washington specifically mentioned, in a government document called "The Federal Register", that the Taiwanese company called Ecoma Enterprises had given sensitive technology to the Iranian government. Washington slapped sanctions against this company and several other companies, which are based in mainland China.

    Although some American companies are completely unethical, the overwhelming majority abide by some minimal standards of decency. Back in the days of apartheid in South Africa, all American companies (except one) doing business there agreed to abide by the Sullivan Principles, which pledged fair treatment to South Africa's blacks.

    We need to take the same moral fortitude in dealing with both Iran and China (including Taiwan province). When we slap sanctions against he Beijing government, we should also slap sanctions against the Taipei government. Taiwan and mainland China are one in the same, as far as morality is concerned. When American companies curtailed investments in China just after the Tiananmen Square Incident, Taiwanese companies actually accelerated investments into mainland China, leading to today's massive cumulative Taiwanese investment of $100 billion into mainland China.

  28. Re:Come down off that high horse before you get hu by ignorant_newbie · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I just cannot stand to see people use the argument that America is the next Facist state when they obviously have no idea what the hell that really means or what happens when you are really in one.
    well, instead of beating our chests and calling names, let's actually see how we measure up, shall we? ( definitions from wikipedia.org ) Fascism (in Italian, fascismo) capitalized, was the authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. ok... so far so good. we're not in italy in the 20s or 30s. Fascism was typified by attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life. hm... here were starting to get closer:
    http://www.clantonadvertiser.com/articles/2005/06/ 26/news/b-news.txtA proposed constitutional ammendment against burning the flag
    The term fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that in various combinations:
    • uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.
    • engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
    • engages in corporatism.
    • implements totalitarianism.
    so... how many of those are we not doing in the US right now?
  29. Thanks a bunch guys... by abonstu · · Score: 2, Informative
    ...now you can bet /. will be filtered too.

    i travel to iran often with work and slashdot is one of the few sites that i check that can still be accessed.

    the filtering there is hardcore.

    in april there was a political clash with some local arabs and a few were killed - the net to our city was cut off entirely for 6 days or so. no one knew what was wrong, or could give us any info. i eventually found out from a friend that works at the local ISP that the govenment had ordered the cut.

  30. Maybe Iranians have Different Values? by putko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Maybe Iranians have different values than us, and they want the good stuff that technology provides, but not the bad.

    Sort of like the Saudis: they want the cars, lobster and Switss watches. They don't want the porn, feminism or modern art.

    A lot of the Iranians in the country are probably happy that the arrival of internet doesn't mean they'll be flooded with things they consider degenerate.

    Besides, they are smart folks. They'll find a way around it, if they really want the tubgirl, goatsex, etc.

    --
    http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_s tone_your_children/dt21_18a.html
  31. Interesting points by einhverfr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In essence, you seem to be pointing out that intollerance of criticism regarding religion in the name of tollerance is bad. Or as Tom Lehrer said "There are some people in this world who do not love their fellow man and I hate people like that."

    I am all for tolerance regarding religion. However, I think people need to stop and think about what this means. Does it mean that rational discussion must be curtailed? I don't think it does. Or rather tolerance, while a noble goal, is also something which can be corruptly used as a shield for fragile egos.....

    For example, if you said the things above, I would lable you as intolerant because you seem to be unwilling to look at mainstream versions of the religions which either de-emphasize these things you mention or simply don't fall unto that category. Basically, you have not offered a thoughtful critique of either religion (rational discussion again?) but have simply issued a few statements you believe to be true without backing them up or admitting to debate. Even if you said "I think that Christianity..." or "I think that Islam..." I would not label you as intolerant because you are admitting to another possible viewpoint.

    For example:

    I think that monotheistic traditions are inherently backward and unable to provide adequate answers to many of the most important questions we often face: How do we build a just society? What is the nature of Good? What should a legal system be based on? In each of these areas, if one believes in a singular divine entity with a definite will, then these questions must simply be deferred to God without question. I.e. Good is in line with God's will (religious principles), our laws should be based on God's will (religious principles), and hence justice means acting in accordance with laws set forth by religious principles. It is very informative to read the Koran and realize that it is largely a set of religious invocations spaced throughout a book prescribing certain rules for *social* interactions.

    Also every monotheistic religion as it exists today was built upon a seminal revelation by a singular individual: Christianity came from the teachings of Christ, Islam from Mohammed, and Moses received much (or all) of the basis for Judaism on Mount Sinai. Because these traditions all look back to a seminal founder, their religious principles are frozen in time. So too are the concepts of law.

    It is informative to look at the revolution against the intellect that occurred in Islamic religious circles in the 13th and 14th centuries. Prior to this time, Islam was one of the most open, investigative, and intellectually supportive religion in their area. The Muslims had preserved the writings of Plato during a time when they were lost in Europe, etc. They had supported the sciences to the extent that they had measured the circumference of the world, and had many many other achievements (inventing Algebra, and many more things). However in that time frame, there was a large reaction against such intellectual persuits as mathematics, comparing it to wine (it makes men drunk on reason). Fortunately, Europeans had a change of heart in the 12th century and started translating Arabic works into Latin (and discovered many Greek works in the process).

    But what is interesting is that while much of what we see as the high civilization of the Renaisance was preserved by the Arabs, it was *authored* by our Pagan Greek ancestors. Even though Plato authored most of the framework of Christian theology (including original sin and the Trinity), our pagan ancestors though systemically because their religion was set up as a series of interlocking systems. Indeed Christianity was not only unnecessary for the advancement of European intellectual advancement but was actually a step backward. ...

    Does this make me intolerant?

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  32. Re:Come down off that high horse before you get hu by Flaming+Death · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Guantanamo bay.. apparently the US _does_ hold people without rights.. and to top it off.. they werent even on US soil? You want to list the abuses the US has been involved in around the world? The US has been the source of political governments oppression of their citizens for year.. and there are many countries that the US applys it 'will' over to make sure this happens. Egypt, Morroco, Many South American countries, various middle African countries (Nigeria, Sudan, and so on).. and various other South East asian countries like Thialand, Indonesia and so on.

    If anyone need to get off their high horse, its Americans. The use of corp power to control _other_ countries is the source of alot of these governments that are applying strict control on information to try and curb the 'capitalist pig' doctrination the rest of the world suffers.

    America has been a Fascist state for the last 50 years at least!! Some of your greatest people have had common liberty's removed from them, just because they spoke out against a government or against a powerful citizen. Read your history books, the US is far from a wonderful benevolent government you beleive it to be. And your citizens continue to apply racist attitudes towards peoples in your own country!! Look at the anti muslim and anti arabian attitude in your country? Are you saying these people dont feel in some way despised, and hated? Are you saying they are not being jailed and beaten up for no reason!! Read your news..

    America is no better than anywhere else.. and more so.. since its corporate greed that is currently enveloping the globe. A country has its own soverign rights.. there is no justification for any other country to apply their laws to them..

    Btw I guarantee you have never even seen/been involved in what you are talking about.. you really think that mentioning the president in bad terms in Iran will get you locked up.. this is typical of Americans "Everyone else is worse than us" attitude..

    Its fuuny that people cant even see Facism occuring in their own country.. and claim its morality and democracy above all others.. complete BS..

  33. The Saudis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Saudi Arabia does the same thing! I don't see why this is considered news, lots of middle eastern countries do this!

  34. Re:Come down off that high horse before you get hu by XchristX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, in that respect, the United States is a lot more like the erstwhile Roman Empire than the Third Reich.

    Like the Roman Empire, the United States was founded on principles of basic freedom by political visionaries. Like the Roman Empire, the state was slowly lost to tyrants and murderers who used propaganda to energize the masses with ideas of racial and religious superiority and the concept of 'glory' or some abstract idea of creating a utopian society. Like with the Roman Empire, this never actually happened. Like the Romans, the United States started to decay with the growing power of Christians in the State, while simultaneously engaging in acts of excess and decadence as well as brutality towards those who chose not to subscribe to their idealogy. If we carry the comparison to it's logical conclusion, then, like the Roman Empre, this country is inevitably destined to collapse in civil war and anarchy and invasions from foreigners. In this respect, the Islamic zealots are a lot like the Goths, Vandals, and Huns who periodically ransacked Rome during her dying years. Like preying vultures and carrion crows, they sense the eventual destruction of this country and are trying to get in on the feast.

    It's very sad that so many innocent people have to die before this happens, but American Society has lost whatever virility and worth it once had, and we should just let them pass into history and allow their civilization a dignified death.

    History never repeats itself, but historical situations often recur. I can only hope that wheatever comes after isn't worse.

    --
    l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
  35. Re:Come down off that high horse before you get hu by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 2, Informative
    1. You can't read.
    2. you're wrong.

    1. I said If things continue as they are, in 20 years

    You answered the statement you WANTED to answer by saying

    There simply is not censorship here even remotely similar to the horrible things that take place elsewhere

    I was not using the present tense - YOU WERE. I was saying that IF THINGS CONTINUE ALONG THE PATH THEY ARE AT PRESENT, we won't have much, if any alternative press in this country.

    YOU decided that I was saying that the USA is like Iran TODAY, and responded using such a presumption. Why? Because you're a typical ninny.

    2. You're wrong.

    Have you been arrested and thrown in prison and then beaten for suggesting you do not like the president? I don't think so.

    No, but many people have been arrested and then beaten or tortured or faced with asymmetrical application of state force for much less. Proof?

    Here:

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0407-06.ht m

    Take a look at her face and tell me that isn't torture.

    http://www.constitution.org/ghansen/conghansen.htm

    He wasn't tortured? He wa a former CONGRESSMAN (even)!

    http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

    Oh - I guess you didn't read the Amnesty International Report, either...

    I could go on and on about the evils of the American Government, but I won't. Suffice to say, you're wrong. RIGHT NOW most of the torture and fascist repression our government does (but not all) is visited upon our victims through proxies - client states and corrupt governments supressing their people in the interests of the local ruling class who support the insane and destructive American lifestyle and get rich in the process.

    SOME of the torture is handled here, and is dished out as described above.

    Make no mistake about it: the USA is quickly sliding into a new and unique form of "pseudo-democratic fascism" in the form of a 1.5 party state. The "winner take all" structure of the election system prevents third parties from getting any real daylight, and the power duopoly has been so eroded in the past several years by the neocon thugs in the Republican party that it is more of a monopoly of government by and for the corporations.

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  36. different in degree, not kind by cahiha · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Chinese and Iranian governments probably do engage in something that can be legitimately characterized as objectionable censorship. But where should the line between censorship and legitimate restrictions be drawn?

    The US tracks and prosecutes the copying of music and videos, distribution of pornography showing individuals that appear to be younger than 18 years, and information related to bomb making and terrorism. The latter can land you in indefinite detention without the benefit of a trial, other offenses may result in long jail sentences, prison labor, and may effectively constitute a death sentence given the realities of the US prison system. Germany and France crack down on the distribution of Nazi-related content, even if it not intended to promote Nazi ideology, but they are more liberal on sex and copying. And France seeks out certain kinds of linguistically undesirable content. I suspect most people in each of those nations support most of those policies. Likewise, we don't actually know what the Chinese and Iranian people want; it is wrong to assume that, even if they could decide democratically, they would want to draw the line where we want to draw it.

    Before we criticize nations like Iran and China, it's good to reflect on what we actually want them to do and what the people in those nations want. We apparently don't want them to have a free and unrestricted Internet, since we don't have that ourselves. Nor can we expect other societies to tolerate some of the content that we have learned to live with (goatse etc.). So, what do you actually want Iran and China to do? Only filtering and enforcement for the benefit of Disney? Or what?

  37. Re:Come down off that high horse before you get hu by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 2

    But there's a good reason why the people staying at Guantanamo have no rights.

    Cheney says that they are bad people

    Seems that due process isn't needed if the government believes that you're a bad person.

    --
    -- Using the preview button since 2005
  38. what makes you say he hates the US government? by crovira · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I read a well researched series of articles on mistreatment. (And it happens, as it happen.) He is deploring the fact that these things are occurring. (What, he should rejoice?)

    He wouldn't deplore it if he was outside the country and for what was happening. Basically your "My countr right or right!" is the kind of blinkered, knee-jerk, thoughtless but well ingrained attitute that tell me volumes about what you are.

    I'm writing this knowing you'll never read it or understand it if you do.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
  39. Not quite "Home-Grown" by westcoaster004 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you read the full text of the article, it states and confirms "that it uses the commercial filtering package SmartFilter - made by the US-based company, Secure Computing - as the primary technical engine of its filtering system." The multilingual support allows them to filter Farsi. So the same company that stops you so many from visiting just about any site at work is proping up other restrictive regeimes.