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The Business of Anime
buckminster writes "Planet Tokyo's Talking Anime Business Blues is a great roundup and analysis of recent articles detailing the behind the scenes aspects of the anime business. By all accounts 99% of Japanese anime never makes it to America. Some of the arguments why might surprise you. There are still many in the industry who believe that fan subs are killing the anime market in the US."
... but aren't the fansubs happening mostly because the anime isn't commercially available in the US? If so, then make it available, and the fansubs go away... Unless I am missing something?
loganavatar.com
im sorry but some shows would have even gotten popular if it wasnt for fansubs. Like for example Love hina, Azumango diaho, and Naruto owe all of there popularity in the USA due to Fan subbers who brought it to the community in america first!
"to be like god we make our own dolls to play with, but what does that make us, but dolls for god to play with?" Ikari,
Or D) Its their culture, and their shows / movies... not ours. While some Americans will watch Anime, not that many will
Anime is designed for the Japanese culture, and will be better accepted in Japan. US animation is designed for Americans, and hence will be better accepted than Anime. Products do what they are designed for (excluding a certaing clear-glass-pane-inspired-OS)
That was basically my point. Anime is heavily tied to Japanese culture (although I can't understand how they can put up with the repetitivness), and inroads are only going to made in the American culture if it appeals to the average American.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Fansubbing isn't killing anime any more than airing it on TV does. Because if you air it on TV, people don't buy the DVDs, they just record it. On the other hand, almost everyone who watches fansubs will buy DVDs of shows they like.
So what we've really got here is the same complaint as the movie industry. They can't get people to buy crap sight unseen anymore, and it's killing their business model.
A lot of what does manage to come over is dumbed down for the 8-13 crowd.
Simplified dialogue is traded for formerly complex situations. "Constipated west-coast surfer dude" is the voice-acting style preferred by many dubbing companies.
Maybe if they stop trying to pander to a young audience and put proper effort behind importing these into the United States. I mean, Princess Mononoke was very well done and its content was intact.
Anime doesn't have to be exclusively for kids!
That all geeks must love anime. I'm glad 99% of the stuff doesn't make it here - why? Probably because it's crap. The story / dub quality on the anime on adult swim really sounds like it was done by a bunch of middle school students - the "plot" lacks form and any amount of depth for an adult to take seriously.
I'm 25 and in the prime of my geek life - Where is the appeal in Anime? I can't even take the art form seriously after it's been bastadized and role played to death by 'hardcore' geeks. Sorry, I just dont see the connection between anime & my technology based lifestyle. If anything I can relate to american cartoons (family guy, futurama, etc.) than anything else.
I can't connect with some guy named Onimaro that discovers he can shoot laser beams out of his nipples, because the ghost of his great aunt told him he could while he defeated the skateboarding ghost pirates from another planet. That's about how far out and abstract some of this stuff is.
I think a major problem with Anime in America is twofold:
1. The influence of the anime subculture cliques in the US have created a slew of American cartoons that try to appease everyone by becoming "Amerime" as I've heard it called. It's a little bit of American animation and a little bit of Anime, so it's won't make the purists really happy, but it may keep the majority quiet enough to stop barking for the authentic imports.
2. Some anime fan groups really do live up the title of otaku. For example, I absolutely hate Inu Yasha and I've never even seen it. The only reason that I can't stand it is because the anime fan club in my college talked about it so much, non-stop that I already knew the whole thing. In fact, within a week it was already like an overplayed radio single that made me want to smash things. I don't have anything against the story or characters or style, but the overload from the fans was so much that I couldn't stand hearing about it anymore and I still can't to this day.
Not all fans are this bad, and some are much less than this bad or not even bad at all, but there are enough fans that can be true otaku: Obsessed to the point that the average person doesn't want to hear it anymore.
I, for one, don't like to talk about anime anymore for fear that I will be crucified by some purist for watched the unclean dubbed version of whatever.
Personally, I think these two things really hold back anime from becoming truly mainstream in America. Correct me if you want.
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
Of course, American movies and TV shows regularly feature novel plots and fresh ideas!
Just kidding. For example, if you haven't noticed, summer brings lots of action movies (usually a monster action movie, a disaster action movie, a terrorism/military action movie, a space action movie, or a horror-zombies-fantasy-undead action movie.) I think a point of the article is that so much anime DOESN'T make it here, that you can't fairly judge anime in general just by what you see on Cartoon Network or even what you get on DVD from a niche store. But I do agree with a lot of what you said in the OP.
Do you love freedom??? Do you love freedom!!! DO YOU LOVE FREEDOM!!!!!!!!
"It has always amazed me that the Japanese can be amazing animators, yet consistently hold to the same tired cliches in all of their animated series. I understand that the Japanese think that underage girls are the height of sexual prowess, but it just doesn't jive with American ideas of how life actually is." As a fansubber and, thus, viewer of much anime, I would like to point out that the above statement indicates a general lack of awareness regarding the diversity of the product as a whole. To say that "all" series adhere to these alleged Japanese beliefs is a) ignorant and b) a bit racist. Just as with Western television there is quite a range in offerings with respect to both quality and content. Generalizations like that simply don't hold. Furthermore, in the West, the "Disney era" as it were established our, meaning western, current viewpoint regarding the nature of animation and the target audience, hence why most adults don't watch cartoons/animation/whatever you want to call it. As per the "why not release sub-only" argument, that'd be fine if it weren't for one (amazingly stupid) thing: a lot of people, for whatever reason, hate to read subtitles. A dub/sub combo release caters to both potential audiences and thereby has a higher possibility of profit, which they may or may not make.
think about just how many anime DVDs have you purchased recently compared to the number of shows you've downloaded for free.
This is the same flawed logic that the RIAA, MPAA and BSA use. The correct question is:
How many anime DVDs have you bought only _after_ seeing a large part of it for free?
For me the answer is: several dozen discs. I've bought a couple other anime discs based on other criteria, but with only one exception the ones I bought before watching turned out horrible or mediocre.
Many times I saw them for "free" on television or by borrowing from friends. But if the owners of minor anime titles think they're going to somehow get those titles in front of me via TV, they can dream on. Far and away their best bet of getting new titles in front of me where I might make a buy decision is to make sure the first couple episodes are readily available on the Internet in an unencumbered format I'm willing to use.
Works for books too. I've made more than a few purchases after reading the first couple chapters online.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
There's so much wrong with the above post, I think it almost qualifies as flamebait. Where do I start?
Fansubs are not "killing the business". Fansubs are merely a symptom of a failure to properly respond to a demand. The demand is for subtitled digital files of the latest anime from Japan. The proper response is to sell those files at a reasonable price.
The rest of the post is merely Sturgeon's Law. Anime is television from Japan. It's mostly cliched crap for precisely that reason, just as American television is mostly crap. Guess what, that doesn't stop people from watching American TV, or from buying it on DVD.
That last point about importing Japanese DVDs clearly shows that AKAImBatman has no knowledge of the subject he's oh so insightfully posting about. Japanese DVDs made for the Japanese market are very, very, very expensive(Yes, that many verys!). Their DVD purchasing habits are very different from ours.
Having been to Japan and having seen a good example of the 99% that doesn't make it to the US, I would rather think that it is not the US but the Japanese who are killing the US market for Anime. Honestly, the folks who make some of those flicks must need serious psychological help on a routine basis...*twitches*
Yeah, because "Ed, Edd, and Eddy" is animated so much better than "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex", and the stories are so much more interesting and insightful.
</SARCASM>
Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
Why so much fuss about Japanese cartoons? It's not like we get any of their movies or television either, so I fail to see why a dearth of their cartoons in the US market is surprising.
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
Y'know, I think you're being a little disingenuous here. From the front page on your own site, we find:
So it sounds to me like, rather than being "killed" by "piracy", you've noticed a change in the market landscape, and are adapting to try and meet the change. In other words, you're responding to your market rather than whining about the way things "should be."
That's the way it's supposed to work, and bravo to you, sir, for having the presence of mind to recognize it, and the courage to act on it. I don't imagine the transition will be at all easy -- navigating uncharted territory rarely is -- but the fact you're willing to give it a go, in my book, puts you ahead of the game.
Best of fortune to you.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
First, much of Japanese animation is aimed naturally at Japanese modern society because they are watching it first. Do Americans aim their animation at any audience but themselves first?
Second, fan subs are killing nothing and only increasing the fan base which would gladly buy the anime if only it would be exported in the first place. Some of them are insatiable gluttons.
Third, between Suncoast/et al carrying manga and anime, there is a "this is new and faddish" crowd above and beyond the hardcore anime fans being carered to.
Nice article, some incorrect ideas, and doesn't show probably as deep a knowledge of the American and western anime fanbase as could be had with a little research. OTOH, that knowledge might be found frightening and Japan might just go (in Japanese) "WTF is wrong with these people? And they think we're the eccentric ones? We should just stop sending our animation to them. They clearly aren't getting out of it what we intended and getting something else we didn't."
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Anime is simply a medium, a way to put that sea of idea's in our heads into another persons head. The animation is usually good but the problem tends to be the story more than anything else. anime is especially good at expressing imagination, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and a few others were visually stunning, had great imagination but often lacked depth. Others such as Spirited Away & GTO had good animation but that was just sugar on the cake, the y had great story's with real imagination.
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/dublinclontarf
Yeah, that's right.
The reason fansubs are popular is simple.
1. Companies like ADV (and for that matter "Geneon" which used to be Pioneer) wait until a show is popular in the fansub community, buy up the rights to it, and then rather than get on with the job of subtitling and dubbing it sit on it for YEARS before American audiences get the chance to see their "licensed" version.
2. As it would turn out, the "professional" translators at ADV and other places are usually not as good at translating the anime as the army of semi-bilingual teens/twentysomethings on both sides of the pond (in Japan and America) who can email each other back and forth to make sure that not only is the translation correct, they got the idioms right.
3. Even when a big Anime movie comes out - like Howl's Moving Castle or Spirited Away - the American companies don't promote it properly. Disney should have had Howl's Moving Castle showing as a full-scale release with advertisements all over every TV station. But Eisner wouldn't do it because (a) it would prove him wrong about the "death" of traditional animation and (b) he dicked it over because John Lasseter wouldn't resign Pixar with Disney.
In that kind of environment, the reason Fansubs are popular is because WE ARE TIRED OF WAITING FOR THE COMPANIES TO FUCKING DO IT.
We can accept that it takes time to translate - though the speedsubbing groups doing Naruto have it pretty much down to a 24-hour turnaround and they're no less accurate than ADV or VIZ.
We can accept that it takes time to record dubbing voices. We CANNOT accept that it takes them FIVE FUCKING YEARS before they're ready to release a single DVD with only two episodes on it.
Here's your challenge, ADV and the rest of the studios: Get it down to a six-month turnaround. Six months after you license the anime, we want to see it on the fucking shelf.
Then, if fansubs are still "killing the industry", maybe we'll take you seriously.
There are other Anime that I can't stand that most people love like Ghost in the Shell, Armitage, Akira, but thats just a matter of personal taste. I know a ton of people that are downright annoyed by the SD stuff they do on Rayearth, I personally like it. Some people like Fanservice (gratutious content thats usually sexual in nature) however I don't, and I know a large part of the Anime community are just plain annoyed by shows that are excessive in fanservice. I've never watched DBZ, Yu Gi Oh!, or Street Fighter Alpha. Its like Novels, I don't read Romance novels, but love Tolkien and Rowling type stuff. If its not your bag, don't watch it.
Don't even get me started on Fansubs. How else is Anime supposed to get exposed to this market? I would have never heard of Erementar Gerard if it wasn't for Fansubs. They are not killing the market. Its giving what little market Anime has life. Besides, once an Anime gets released over here, Fansubbing stops immediately, and most responsible Anime fans won't download stuff thats been released.
Sorry, but AKAImBatman your just plain ignorant if you think all Anime is about oversexualized girls and macho men. One of the most popular shows in Japan is Ah My Goddess, and the main character who the Goddess is in love with is a Dork.
-- 4 8 15 16 23 42
The funny part is when they swallow our culture and they regurgitate it right back at us.
"Trigun" is a great example. It's the American Western seen through the eyes of Japanese and then, of course, re-imported back to it's culture of origin for me to watch. It makes me wonder how "Samurai Jack" plays in the land of the rising sun.
TW
I will admit that there is a lot of crap out there, but believe me we are not getting the 'cream of the crop'... Look at some of the crap that's shown on the cable channels over the last couple of years: Beyblade? Ultimate Muscle? Don't make me laugh.
What we need is some more of the decent animes like Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex and Last Exile (That thank god has finally made it's way over here to the UK) to make their way over here with decent Dubs, accurate subs and decent prices... £20+ is NOT a acceptable for a DVD with 3, 20 minute episodes. Thats what, £180+ for a 26 Episode series? Ridiculous! And what about series like Inuyasha? Well over £1000...It's just not viable.
And besides, in my honest opinion, my experience shows that fansubbers generally produced a higher quality and more accurate translation that most of the DVD releases have. Why should we pay for something of lower quality?
Anime is extremely overpriced. I can buy the complete season of futurama for $40, if I try to buy the complete season of Cowboy Bebop (a very popular anime) it will cost over $100, probably closer to $150.
Its simply economics. Every anime I have watched in fansub all the way through, I have bought the series. Fansubs are the only thing that gets me to buy anime at all.
I run an anime club in Florida. Florida has 4 good sized anime conventions a year (3000+ attendees.) Our club has about 1500 members. If it weren't for fansubs there would be a very small fraction of anime fans and releases.
Fansubs are the primary avenue we find out about series, become attached to them, and subsequently buy them as they are released. We're ravenous. We buy the dvds even if we have the fansubs. We buy action figures, posters, art books, etc. Most of the members are college kids without a lot of money, and they still buy.
I can't tell you how many times I've been at a convention, talking to directors of american releases (usually voice actors themselves,) or employees of distribution companies about fan subs. The vast majority download them and watch them themselves. Their take on it is "don't buy them, don't buy bootlegs, don't seek them out after the show is licensed and airing/available here."
I can't think of any better marketing research than looking at what's popular in fansubs.
Yeah, some people will download a fansub, and not buy the show. Some maliciously, some not. Most cases people just check the show out, don't like it, so don't buy it.
Very important to every aspect of media piracy in this information age:
Just because someone "steals" something over the internet doesn't mean they would have bought it had they not been able to download it.
I wonder, sometimes, why they don't just work out a deal for advertising in fansubs. Let the fansubs continue with the stipulation that ads are included and have the advertising pay for the content. The means of distrobution is already there and there's no reason to pay for it. Hell, they could even take fansubs, if done well, pay the subbers a small amount and then distribute that on DVD as an ad-free version.
I think the industry is shooting itself in the foot.
I would buy much more anime if most disks had 5 or more episodes per DVD.
I do download a naruto and bleach, and I could see myself paying $0.50 an episode (and gladly uploading till I got to a 1.00 share rating)
But to pay $25 for a disk with 3 episodes. Give me a break, after I skip the intro and endings thats 60 minutes of content. I expect a 'movies worth'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
Either there's something fundamentally more universal about our culture or there's something fundamentally more universal about our movies.
Or, far more likely, the Japanese are more open to other cultures than Americans are.
That's not intended as flame. Most of us who live in America grew up in a country with entire oceans separating us from anybody who's all that cultrually different from us. Canada? Mexico? I defy you to tell Northern Minnesota from Southern Ontario without looking closely at the street signs and money. Ditto South Texas vs. Mexico.
Apart from immigration (mostly by people trying to get the fuck away from whatever culture they came from) we don't really get exposed to much outside of our provincial and isolated chunk of the globe.
Japan, on the other hand, is almost within swimming distance of both China and... er.. um... whatever the fuck the former Soviet territory on that side of Asia is calling itself. It's Kamchatka on my Risk board, so I'll call it that. (What do I know about it!? I'm American!)
The reason why everybody watches our movies is that we are pretty good at making movies (or used to be, anyway), and people in a lot of other countries don't mind watching something "foreign" to them.
The reason we don't watch everybody else's movies is because if it's not aimed squarely at the only culture we really understand, we must struggle to "get it."
Anime is a terrific example of this. American animation has some very specific and uniquely American quirks that we don't notice because we are used to them. Nearly every major American animated move release follows the basic structure of a Broadway musical.
In Japan, they don't have broadway musicals. Their animation obviously shows some American influence, but their animated movies often feel a lot more like Asian opera. Everything is very broad and melodramatic. The "huge eyes" serve this purpose perfectly, because drawing expression in the eyes is a very usefull method for showing emotions on a simple line-drawing of a face, and over time they've mastered the technique over there.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Well, as one example, why not COMBINE the used stuff and rentals. Like basically allow a customer to rent any used title. That saves and inventory. Now here's the kicker. If they decide they like something, credit the rental fee 100% towards the purchase. That way there's a lower barrier to entry to see if you like something, lower even than a simple rental, because if they decide to buy, the rental money isn't "wasted".
As another idea, have "giveaway" discs. Something like for every $150, or $200, or whatever they spend on videos, they get a free DVD. Make that free DVD the first one from one of the more obscure series, and again, it gets it exposure, and even if it's something they aren't crazy about , who's gonna argue with free? Plus, provided the stuff is decent, some percentage will go on to BUY the rest of the series. This could very well offset the cost of the "giveaway" DVDs, entirely.
TODO: Something witty here...
Likewise, I can't make an analogy with the American movie/series culture repetitivness, since I'm too deeply immersed in that, too. However, to make another analogy: To the unimmersed, any given operating system looks more or less the same (Windows, Mac OS X, Linux with GNOME or KDE, what's the difference?), but to those of us who are immersed in computer culture, we can discuss the difference of details that mere mortals wouldn't notice even if they were explicitly pointed out.