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In SIlicon Valley: Profits up. Employment Down.

popo writes "The New York Times (free yada yada) has an interesting report on the changing landscape of Silicon Valley tech companies: Profits are soaring but employment figures are not. This dynamic points to significant future shifts down the road for Silicon Valley companies like Electronic Arts and Cisco. Interestingly, the culprit isn't just outsourcing. Huge leaps in worker productivity and automated processes are also responsible for the decreased need for new labor."

30 of 435 comments (clear)

  1. Mandatory overtime by EWIPlayer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not to mention the recent trend (last 5 years or so) of mandatory overtime... If everyone works the equivalent of 1.5 people then employment doesn't need to go up. Profits are starting to match effort level, and that effort level will just equal burnout eventually. When that happens, employment will go back up or profits will start to go down.

    --
    This sig used to be really funny...
    1. Re:Mandatory overtime by zerocool^ · · Score: 4, Insightful


      If everyone works the equivalent of 1.5 people then[...]

      In the Sysadmin world, we call this .5 of a person "shell scripts".

      It's a dichotomy - you get really good at shell scripts so that you can make your life easier, take care of some of the tedious stuff automatically, and then they expect you to fill your free time with more work! Whatever happened to "if I'm smart enough to make the system work for me, I deserve to do less work"?

      ~Will

      --
      sig?
    2. Re:Mandatory overtime by bwalling · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The idea that hours equates to productivity is ludicrous. As long as you get your stuff done, it shouldn't matter to your employer how long you work. My wife took over a job that took the previous person (actually, each of the last three) 70-80 hours per week to do. She was able to get it done in 40-45 hours. Her employer was thrilled. The point isn't how long you work, but whether you get your work done.

    3. Re:Mandatory overtime by luvirini · · Score: 3, Insightful
      ah.. then you are marking your time card wrong..

      You should mark all the time that the shell scripts do while you play computer games as worktime..

    4. Re:Mandatory overtime by EWIPlayer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My favourite T-shirt in my collection says, "Of course I don't look busy. I did it right the first time.".

      But you're totally right. I've written tons of scripts and cron jobs in the last 5 years, yet i still work 9.5 hours a day on average. Where's my raise? :)

      --
      This sig used to be really funny...
    5. Re:Mandatory overtime by malkavian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the long term, it's more likely that profits go down. I've seen this mentality before. Push people to the limits to make more profit.
      In a tech team, one guy falls due to burnout, which means that load is spread around the remnants of the already overstressed team.
      New guy comes in to learn the code/system, so the whole job needs doing, and new guy needs to be taught (if he's going to be any more use than a chocolate teapot).
      Which leads to a second member falling, as there really is too much to do, and now less time to do it.
      Which leads to another new guy.
      More than once, I've seen this take out a whole team as management keep moving stuff onto the remaining originals who know the system, or the new guys who sometimes walk out one day and don't come back because of ridiculous pressure.
      Eventually nobody knows the whole system, or can use it all effectively.
      Then the product dies a long and messy death, possibly taking out the whole company surrounding it.
      Net result, lots of job losses.

      Working in the areas I have so long (systems and networks), I find it really odd, how companies are running around yelling "Resilience, reliability.. We need everything able to withstand emergencies", and buy two of every server, RAID the disks, redundant routing, offsite backups..
      Yet they have their tech team cut to the bone, with highly compartmentalised skills.
      One leaves, and for a significant time, they're shafted in one area (at least).
      There was a very good reason companies always used to have more staff than was strictly necessary to complete a task.
      It wasn't just morale, and making the job comfortable enough that people wanted to stay..
      It was for the ability to obtain an "emergency tolerant" skillset.
      You could lose a good few staff from any area, and your knowledge base wasn't significantly impacted.

      All this 'on the edge' company structuring isn't sustainable.
      And by the time the West has finally come full circle, and discarded all the bits that have cost if a fortune in the long term as it's chased short term gain for a few decades (until it can't get any more short term gain, and they hit the wall), they'll be facing a fully geared up Asia and China, who have taken the long term view, with fully staffed and skilled departments who can outmanoeuver and outperform any Western company going..

    6. Re:Mandatory overtime by el_womble · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This irks me. If somebody employees me to create a tool for them I am happy to do so and will hand it over to them copyright an all. If somebody employes me to do something for them, and I choose to automate that task using a tool, using skills that I have aquired to build that tool, then the tool should belong to me, not that company - so when I leave that company the tool leaves with me. Otherwise where is the bean counter incentive to keep me on?

      I once had a job in a call centre for Dell (groan). They job was tedious. I was told I had to take data from a disk, print it out, then input it into a seperate program. They employed me as a call centre grunt, so I wasn't getting paid geek wages. I created a macro, and did a weeks worth of work in under an hour (the restriction was bandwidth). What am I ethically obliged to do in that situation? I tried telling my super, but they weren't interested as it threatend their jobs. In essence I had made myself, and my coworkers redundant in a little under a morning. Should I ask for more work when I was already doing more than they were employing me for? When I left I took the macro with me.

      --
      Scared of flying, pointy things snce 1979!
    7. Re:Mandatory overtime by digidave · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's one thing for a single male like you to say that, but try working 80 hours a week and remaining a good husband and father. It won't happen.

      The main point that the GP didn't quite make isn't that a person can't work an 80 hour week, but that consistently doing so results in burnout and a less productivity. Very few people can work 60 - 80 hours a week for five years. It's not just that the extra 20 - 40 hours per week will be less productive, but that the first 40 will be as well.

      It's one thing to call someone lazy because they don't like work, but quite another to call them lazy because they don't want to spend every waking hour at work. For most people, work is not their lives.

      --
      The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
    8. Re:Mandatory overtime by dubl-u · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If somebody employes me to do something for them, and I choose to automate that task using a tool, using skills that I have aquired to build that tool, then the tool should belong to me, not that company - so when I leave that company the tool leaves with me.

      Legally, all work you do as an employee is owned by the company. If you give them something more than they expect, well, you've given it to them. Generally that's the case if you're on an hourly contract, too, although it depends on exactly what's in your contract.

      If you want the right to own the IP and want to be able to turn a profit on being smart about the way to do the work, arrange a contract that pays you by the piece completed. It's better if the contract is between Dell and El Womble Inc rather than between Dell and Mr. El Womble. I don't think it's legally better; rather it fits people's prejudices.

    9. Re:Mandatory overtime by GoMMiX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      120 Hours in a 5 day work-week.

      80 Hours worked.
      10 Hours drive-time. (30 minutes to, 30 minutes from)
      10 Hours maintenance time. (shower, shave, whatever)

      That leaves 20 hours to sleep. What about your family? Wife, kids? Yeah right!

      Sure, an 80 hour workweek once or twice a year can be ok. Really, it's bull -- but tolerable. The employer SHOULD be responsible for managing their resources better to prevent such things - or be forced to pay mandatory overtime (which Bush saw to it that doesn't happen - specifically for IT people).

      But it's not just one or two weeks a year. It's EVERY week. I've worked at one of these 80-hour-week companies before. It's all promises and lies when you're being hired on - then you are slowly introduced into the 'emergency' firefighting atmosphere and before the end of your first month you're on STEADY 70-80 hour work-weeks.

      Anyone who has worked these insane hours for prolonged periouds can tell you the things that happen to your body and your life are cruel, to say the least. Cruel, very cruel.

      The first thing you notice is memory loss. Constantly losing things, can't remember what you worked on earlier, sometimes you can't even remember what PROJECT you are CURRENTLY working on. You start forgetting peoples names, etc.. Your family? HA! Just a distant memory, they don't even come to mind.

      Eventually, you end up with this glazed look on your face. These are the people you can tell a great joke too and they won't get it for several minutes - and even then probably won't laugh because they don't have the energy.

      Bush saw to it IT people could be abused like this, now the US Government scrables to get enough IT people in the military.

      Most of my friends have moved to other COUNTRIES to work, because working in IT in the US is a joke. Unless you are among the lucky few - your job belongs to an H1-B visa worker, invloves insane overtime, or involves being in another country. And I must say, many of my friends work in Japan now.

      That or they've gone for a career change. Which is what I'm doing right this moment. I'm working with my old college counsellors to work up a masters in education. Yaup, I'm going to teach.

      Sure, I'm not going to get rich teaching - but I will get to spend time with my family -- my son. I'll have two solid months off during the summer, I _will_ have Christmas off. I won't have to attend my sons birthday parties via telephone call.

      $50,000 a year starting is awesome for me.

      I must say, 10 years in IT has tought me one thing -- free time IS more important than making more money. I'm going to live my life, rather than working massive overtime so some genocidal executives can have more money.

      One day these people will be exposed for the trash they are, and I hope they pay dearly.

    10. Re:Mandatory overtime by vsprintf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Working in the areas I have so long (systems and networks), I find it really odd, how companies are running around yelling "Resilience, reliability.. We need everything able to withstand emergencies", and buy two of every server, RAID the disks, redundant routing, offsite backups.. Yet they have their tech team cut to the bone, with highly compartmentalised skills.

      And in software, management is running around yelling "reusability" like some mantra. This is of course just a keyword for "fewer programmers", but the managers are cluless enough to think that data conversion code can magically be used to run tape drives if it's written with "reusability" in mind. Like most problems, it boils down to managers being promoted to their level of incompetence. Seriously, being in a meeting where management is detailing their "vision" is enough to make me wonder what kind of hallucinogenics they're using.

  2. The real question by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Where are those profits going? To the low level workers that actually make it happen, or to the CEO who is already wildy rich? I wouldn't be surprised to see wages not going up for the majority of workers despite increased profits.

    1. Re:The real question by sgt_doom · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Wow, magic numbers...COOL, DUDE!

      Reality check: today less than 1% control over 90% of the assets - for sure, dude, it may be difficult - but do the math! 99% make under $323,000 per year - the upper 1% make over $323,000 per year - we have reached the era of ultra-concentration of wealth - other countries have revolutions long before reaching this point. Perhaps we're clueless....

  3. Well of course, and its going to get .... by 3seas · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... even more so.

    Programming is teh act of automating complexity, typically made up of less complex, but still the same...automations. It is done so that the user of the complexity can use and reuse the complexity thru a simplified (in relationship to the complexity) interface.

    With this it is inherent that the field of programming is something of a job intended to work itself out of a job... Otherwise there is a serious problem exposed in the software industry.

    There will always be jobs in programming but tasks will change and as programming automates more and more of its own field, simplifying the process, so will it allow more and more to do programming/automating, for themselves, perhaps not strickly as a programmer 9-5 but as a task to do as part of other main duties of onmes position at a company.

    Simply understand the inherent objective of progamming and carry it on out in its evolution..

    1. Re:Well of course, and its going to get .... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your argument only holds if we only try to do the same jobs, but now with increased automation. A smart industry/society would realise that if the easy stuff just got easier, we have more resources to focus on harder stuff.

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  4. Several things causing this by luvirini · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Two of the trends causing this are clearly the increased automation and outsourcing.

    But also the much higher overtime in larger corporations on scales than was traditioally only seen in startups.

    And the fact that a lot of the new things are not outsourced as such, but still developped by small companies and then bought by these large ones.

  5. Unemployment by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The prospect of technological leverage will of course raise the specter of unemployment. I'm surprised people still worry about this. After centuries of supposedly job-killing innovations, the number of jobs is within ten percent of the number of people who want them. This can't be a coincidence."
    -- Paul Graham (2004-09), What The Bubble Got Right

    (If the doom-sayers were right, then there would be a total of ten jobs in the world today.)

  6. From TFA ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In the last three years, profits at the seven largest companies in Silicon Valley by market value have increased by an average of more than 500 percent while Santa Clara County employment has declined to 767,600, from 787,200. During the previous economic recovery, between 1995 and 1997, the county, which is the heart of Silicon Valley, added more than 82,800 jobs.

    And this is happening all over the place, not just in Silicon Valley, and in all industries, not just IT. In other words, folks, whatever you call the current economic situation, it is not a recovery. Traditional aggregate measures like size of GDP, or GDP per capita, or total corporate income -- and the changes in them that have traditionally been used to define words like "depression," "recession," "recovery," and "boom" -- are meaningless if the number and quality of jobs don't keep pace. It really doesn't matter how much the executives and boardmembers are making. If the increased profits don't translate into good jobs at good pay for regular workers, nobody's recovering a damn thing.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  7. Spreading outside Santa Clara County by eltoyoboyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A significant number of tech people were never attracted to the area since the cost of living increase exceeded the salary increase. Companies have moved to spread their tech base outside the main "Silicon Valley" proper. The jobs have spread up the East Bay to Sacramento, while headquarters remained in the Silicon Valley area. Jobs have also spread to other outlying cities. With the advent of cheap broadband in rural areas, software engineers and project managers can live anywhere from Alabama to Oregon and maintain a nice home instead of two bedroom apartment.

    --
    Have you Meta Moderated t
  8. Translation by Average_Joe_Sixpack · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Huge leaps in worker productivity and automated processes are also responsible for the decreased need for new labor

    Employees are working longer hours and are expected to put in work during the weekends and holidays (yes, I'm bitter because I am putting in hours today)

  9. Technology makes things easier and cheaper. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful


    Same thing happenned to machinists.

    You start off with a blacksmith. Lots of them are needed to do anything and it costs a lot and they are highly skilled and treasured.

    Then the blacksmith learns to build metal bending machines. You take a bar, put it in the machine, pull hard on the lever and it bends.

    Thus it makes more complex devices easier to build. The blacksmith becomes more highly educated, more refined. Becomes the inventor.

    He uses the metal bending machines to build complex machines. shavers, benders, cutters, drills, and such. Those in turn make making more and more complex machines that are larger, stronger, and at the same time more exact and easier to use.

    Then comes interchangable parts. Things that took generations to figure out, years of discipline hard work to learn how to build, can now be built in previously unimaginable large numbers AND be more exact AND be made by semi-skilled labor.

    Then they build entire factories. Machines the size of apartment complexes. Things so automated and exact that it boggles the mind.

    Were is the place for the original blacksmiths that started all this? No were. All you need is a highly educated guy at the top doing the design, and somebody with a IQ hirer then a 105 to stamp out the molds and feed the machines the raw materal.

    Such is the same thing with the programmer.

    The original blacksmiths were the guys that took individual transistors and designed thinking machines. They used wires coated in varnish and wrapped around metal pegs to build curcuits.

    They developed their own languages to go with the custom machines.

    Then along came wide use of intergrated curcuits. Discs and memory to store instructions. Machine language became well understood technology and people built and documented assembly.

    Then you had standardizations happenning. Fewer new unique machines were built and ones that were created were built with a eye on backward compatability with previous generations of computers.

    Then along came C and Unix to make realy portable programs. Fewer and fewer machine archatectures were built, with standardized abstractions and ISAs for compatability.

    All the computers resembled each other in operation and performance. They became faster and faster. Software that was not portable became obsolete as soon as it was finished written.

    Now we have a few archatectures. They resemble each other closely in theory and executions. Portable software is the norm. Nobody fucks around in assembly unless they absolutely have to and that's avoided as much as possible.

    Nobody is hand-making curcuits. Nobody is building memory from hand or wiring up peg boards. It's all done thru IDE's and thru standardized libraries provided by large monolythic system developers. The computer is disposable and faster then ever, the software can be gotten from the internet in minutes and new programs can be written in weeks that would of taken years to accomplish just a couple decades ago.

    That's how technology works. It makes doing complex things very easy.

    A person can go into Enlightenment 0.17 or use Python with Gstreamer framework to build a DVD player with fewer then 100 lines of code, and have it run on AIX, PPC, ARM, x86, x86-64, IA64, Sparc and others with almost the same level of effort.

    7 it was very expensive just to have a computer that could even play DVDs.

  10. Designers/Administrators get paid by putko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From reading this, and another article by Richtel about US mom and pop businesses outsourcing their manufacturing, it seems that people who run things or design things still have jobs. That's just not many people.

    The assembly has moved to China. You probably don't want those jobs anyway -- when they were here they were lousy jobs, but now they are unthinkable (unless you like breathing lead). Design and prototyping still gets done in Silicon Valley.

    Even so, actual engineering is moving to Taiwan. Imagine you want to make a board. The assembly guys (Chinese, in Shanghai) need to talk to the engineer and ask some questions about a substitution. Better if he is Chinese in Taiwan, right?

    Even more disturbing (as a non-Chinese-speaking American) is that actual innovation (the stuff we are supposed to be good at) is getting done in Taiwan. E.g. stuff that allows a cheapo processor to have 5 fast ethernet interfaces. Your routers were probably designed in Taiwan, and labled "Cisco" or "D-Link". But Cisco didn't design it -- it was probably someone like these guys: Zyxel (Taiwan)

    Americans need to lose the laziness and start working harder (if they want to be able to pay for enough gas to fill a SUV). This is inevitable. As long as there was no China, the Taiwanese could make decent money on the bottom. Now that Red China is here, they are getting pushed up; they have to do fancier work, or they will live like the Chicoms.

    If the Africans ever get their act together, their wages will be lower than the Chinese, and that will be it for the rag trade. North Carolina will not make any textiles/clothing at that point.

    --
    http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_s tone_your_children/dt21_18a.html
    1. Re:Designers/Administrators get paid by Rinikusu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Uh... wrong.

      What's "wrong" is the fact that many workers in these countries "taking our jobs" do not compete on an even level as ourselves. They do not have an equivalent of OSHA to keep the working environment somewhat safe, and chains/locks off the doors in case of a fire. They do not have the equivalent of the EPA to regulate the release of toxins into the communities around them. They do not have things like "labor rights" that ensure they can go home on the weekend, or even a paid vacation every once in a while, and forget about medical benefits. And the governments in place are determined to keep their "labor" advantage, so they squash any mention of unions, which exist precisely for these reasons.

      What I don't understand is how a so-called "enlightened" slashdotter can be in such a hurry to race towards the bottom of the barrel. How someone can sit there and point to some schmuck working 90 hours a week and say that's some sort of nobility in that. To not understand that labor comes with a price, and humans do not live to just perform some mundane labor. At least we'd hope not. When you finally get a family (good luck with that and your 90 hour weeks for nothing) to support, let us know how many hours you enjoy working.

      For me, work is a necessary "evil" that I do so I can afford to do things in my spare time. I learned a long time ago that working 100 hours a week didn't do anything but waste my life.

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    2. Re:Designers/Administrators get paid by drsquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So the 'bread' that americans get for their efforts, and through the efforts of their ancestors, should be given away just because other people don't have bread?

      They didn't get the bread through efforts. They work no harder than anyone else. They only get it because of where they were born:

      1. American works, gets large loaf of bread.
      2. Malaysian works harder, gets tiny slice of bread.
      3. Company decides instead to give more bread to the Malaysian.
      4. American sits on the dole wondering why the gravy train's dried up.

      The world is equalising. No longer will you get guaranteed a higher standard of living and massive wages just because you're born in the right country. And that's a good thing. Unless you're biased because you're an American, but tough shit. America has never given a shit about the rest of the world, and now you're crying because the rest of the world doesn't give a shit about you.

  11. TFA say employment rising by Kohath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you read TFA carefully, you'll see that employment picked up starting in March.

    Leave it to the NY Times to spin the story.

    "Profits Up, Productivity WAY Up, Employment Finally Starting to Increase Too" would be a reasonably accruate way to report this. Nevermind that though.

    NY Times is the official newspaper of half-truths and selective reporting. It's Micheal Moore without the showmanship.

  12. Re:But where are the people? by Ubergrendle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Catch 22. If your company is not in the mode of hiring young unexperienced workers and developing your own internal resource pool, then this is the quandry you face.

    Some point over the past decade corporate america decided that employees were 100% expendable, you could hire them part time or on contract if you needed them desperately. Longevity in a company is becoming a rare experience.

    Never mind that contractors cost 2x as much as an internal employee; never mind that in specialised industries you can't find the skills you need no matter the price; never mind the fact that it takes on average 3-6 months for a new employee to understand his environment and become productive (its called 'corporate memory').

    My favorite bit is that if every corporation behaves the same way and attempts to 'steal' resources developed by other companies, in the end the whole industry has cannibalised itself. No-one is developing the workforce as an asset, so it stagnates. There's only so much 'personal improvement' someone can do with personal resources to develop their careers...

    For example: if you're a seasoned developer or operator of MVS or Tandem I'm sure you won't have a hard time finding work. Too bad most companies don't have succession planning in place for their 55+ year old staff...and lots of colleges are teaching MVS skills nowadays, right? It is unreasonable to assume the labour market can respond to this need on its own.

    --
    John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
  13. We're talking about different stuff by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As far as I can tell, your argument basically seems to be "if I do the same job in 2 hours (yes, via scripts or whatever) that a bad worker does in 8, I should get the rest of 6 hours free". Which is a strange request, seein' as it basically asks to set everyone's job requirements to the slowest possible worker.

    It's not how any other job works, nor how progress happened. E.g., the reason we have an abbundance of consumer goods today is that, yes, we can produce in 8 hours _more_, say, cloth than a 16'th century weaver could produce by hand. If the line of thinking had been, "yay, I produced 10 ft worth of cloth in 10 minutes, that someone would have needed all day to make by hand, therefore I can go home after 10 minutes" we'd still be living in the 16'th century kind of poverty. We'd have lots of free time, but wouldn't be an inch closer to having today's standard of living.

    Anyway, when the rest of us rant about overtime, we don't mean "waah, but they make me work a whole 8 hours a day." What we mean is more along the lines of having to work 12-14 hour days, 7 days a week.

    E.g., since Electronic Arts is mentioned, I can't help remember the recent story (you know, the employee's wife's blog) about EA over-working its employees to the maximum. In fact, until some of them couldn't even focus any more. And they were demanding that kind of hours not because the project was desperately over the deadline or over the budget, but from the start. Just because some greedy fuck figured out some version of "muahahaha, so I can get more than twice the work out of them for the same money. And if they burn out afterwards, who the f-word cares about them?"

    I find it inherently abhorrent to read about EA bragging about profits and _reducing_ the number of jobs, while demanding that kind of massive overtime.

    Now I can see some excuse in asking for short-term _temporary_ over-time to save a project in the final stages, or until more people can be hired to handle the unforeseen load. But actually planning to _fire_ some more, because, hey, you can overwork the rest to make up for it (and then fire them too when they get burned out), has a certain slimeball quality to it.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:We're talking about different stuff by Atragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the point is that because the person in question is working smarter, why should he wind up getting paid the same as his co-workers while being more productive?

      I don't think anybody is arguing that we shouldn't increase productivity, the argument here is that finding an innovative solution to a problem thus increasing your productivity should be rewarded.

      If you have an environment in which working smarter merely results in you doing more work for the same pay as the people who are doing less work where is the incentive to be more productive?

  14. Re:But where are the people? by HarryCaul · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I left. Right at 8 years of writing multithreaded high-reliability software for the financical industry, so I'm someone employers look for.

    But I got tired of being filtered out by recruiters and clueless HR departments for not having exactly the right buzzwords. And then the jobs that did come up having ridiculously low salaries attached.

    I just quit the field, left it. Doing a stable, low-work-level, 40 hour a week for the same money as the low-ballers wanted to pay.

    I code in my spare time, and maybe I'll do something with that, but I'm never coding for someone else again.

    You pushed it too far, asking for too much for too little.

  15. It's called an 8-hour work day. by Inoshiro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem is that, by and large, the software industry is stupid.

    If you work a 9.5hr shift regularly, you are not as productive. If you had just worked 8 hours, you'd notice that you'd do about as much work as in 9.5hr. That extra 1.5hr of labour at the end of the day, a day where you are already tired of work, and likely to make mistakes, is not good. At first you gain a benefit, but then the lack of leisure time cuts into sleep.

    At that point, you arrive for work less rested, and productivity keeps declining from there. You can't recover. It's why, over the 17th through early 20th century, labour hours decreased. The most recent being when Henry Ford proclaimed that thereafter the minimum wage in his industries would be five dollars for a day of eight hours.

    I don't know why there is this huge cult around working long hours, with no vacations, and killing yourself with overtime in the US and in tech jobs. I don't hear about people dieing from stress in th EU, where they have 6 weeks of vacation a year.

    "if I'm smart enough to make the system work for me, I deserve to do less work"

    --
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