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Microsoft Books and Certifications?

ozTravman asks: "I have been doing my Microsoft MCSE exams, so far I have completed 70-270 and 79-290 and I am about to start preparing for 70-291 'Implementing, Managing, and Maintaining a Microsoft Windows Server 2003 Network Infrastructure'. I currently work as a Systems Engineer and for the previous two tests I simply read the Microsoft Press books related to the test. However, I found those particular books to be quite useless and found that cramming for the test using Braindumps and practice exams the night before was far more effective and relevant to the test content. I did not even bother finishing the 70-290 book. So what books have other Slashdot readers have used to help them to prepare for these tests?"

74 comments

  1. Braindumps?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    You realize by using a braindump you are effectively cheating?!?

  2. Wow.... by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 4, Funny

    The perfect place to post your question. I do hope you have abestos gloves on!

    --
    "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    1. Re:Wow.... by paul.dunne · · Score: 1

      Seems a pretty good place for his question to me. After all,
      it seems clear that the majority of /. readers these days are
      Windows users.

  3. Re:Is this what you're asking? by dagr8tim · · Score: 2, Funny

    Minesweeper Certified Solitare Expert?

    --
    "Does your computer have IP on it?"
  4. Re:Is this what you're asking? by Kick+the+Donkey · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Not to defend Microsoft in anyway, but most certifications aren't worth the paper they are printed on. They're supposed to mean that the person that holds the certificate has worked with the tech in the field, and ALSO passed a rigerous exam.

    With all the training centers out there, if you pay them enough money, you'll pass the tests without ever working a day in the field.

    --
    /. is a bunch of nerds at a million typewriters. It's not a political conspiracy determined to undermine your beliefs.
  5. Re:Is this what you're asking? by paul.dunne · · Score: 1

    Many a true word spoken in jest!

  6. what value MSCE? by cerebralpc · · Score: 2, Funny
    What is the value of an MSCE?

    One company I worked with displayed them at the front desk...is this the best use of them?

  7. MCSE Silliness by Cyphertube · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'll admit that once upon a time I thought the MCSE was a really cool thing.

    My first clue came really early on, when back in the days of the NT 4.0 exams, I bought the official books for server administration. Then I was working on installing a server for a company and realised that these books didn't cover even half the stuff I came across.

    Nowadays, I use Linux at home, and have Windows 2000 at work. My boss apparently has some MCSE training, and yet I seem to know how to handle basic Windows stuff far better than he does. We have no sensible standard policy for installing workstations (fixed size pagefiles are a good idea), no fixed maintenance schedules aside from anti-virus (how many years have most of these people gone without a defrag?), and a load of thing using more/less default settings.

    I've been looking at Novell's CLP and CLE certs myself, but primarily because I want the further education. They would qualify me to run systems for a quite small company, at least at first glance.

    --
    Linux - because it doesn't leave that Steve Ballmer aftertaste.
    1. Re:MCSE Silliness by mnmn · · Score: 1

      At one point the MCSE became a joke (around 2000). The youngest person to pass the exam in Pakistan IIRC was an 11 year old kid, which appeared in the newspapers.

      Later on, MCSE became tougher to deal with this, but the exam still aims for the largest market.

      Now reading a book has never worked for me for computer certs. Just buy several cheap used computers, build a network and read braindumps. Works much better.

      --
      "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
    2. Re:MCSE Silliness by larien · · Score: 1
      I got Solaris certification a couple of years ago because I was going to be out of a job in a few months and hoped the cert would help me stand out a little. To be honest, most of it was stuff I knew already and the rest, well, I've forgotten it.

      Certs don't make a good admin any better, but it should show you have the basics/intermediates covered which is enough to show you're not just bluffing.

  8. Futurama? by poopdeville · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The first thing I thought of after reading your question was the suicide booths from the pilot episode.

    --
    After all, I am strangely colored.
  9. God, that's depressing... by clambake · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    If these "certifications" really meant that you were competent to do suchandsuch, then there would be no cramming needed or possible. You can't "cram" to be an eye surgeon. You can't "cram" to be a helicopter pilot. Bascially, this just proves what I suspected all along, these certifications aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Or, more precicely, they are indeed worth the paper they are printed on because that is what you are actually paying for, not learning a skill..

    But, hey, they cost money so somone makes out, and capitalisim is awesome, right? Ok, from now on, I am officially gonna be in the certification bidness. You need to be certified in something? Come to me. I gots me a laser printer and photoshop, and I guarantee that all of my certifications are fully accredited*. No exams, just pay the money!

    *accreditied by the Me Accreditation Institute

    1. Re:God, that's depressing... by Monte · · Score: 1

      You can't "cram" to be a helicopter pilot.

      "The Matrix" lied?!? Gasp!

    2. Re:God, that's depressing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, say it isn't so....

      I love Trinity.

    3. Re:God, that's depressing... by prof.morbius · · Score: 1
      Bascially, this just proves what I suspected all along, these certifications aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Or, more precicely, they are indeed worth the paper they are printed on because that is what you are actually paying for, not learning a skill..

      You've got it with the second one. Like my B.A. in Philosophy, my CCNA just got me into the "Second look" pile at my new job. Everything after that was actual knowledge and winning personality. Oh, and staggering humility.

      Sad as that is, part of the problem is that the HR people doing the hiring don't have any idea what they're looking at, so they need to see the certs just to know you might know what you're talking about.

      --
      "A plan's just a list of things that don't happen" -- Mr. Parker, "The Way of the Gun"
  10. Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I currently work as a Systems Engineer

    If you have a degree in Engineering, why are you pursuing an MCSE?

    Seriously, as an Engineer I despise it when the term is abused. The AMA and ABA would never allow Microsoft et alia to churn out "Microsoft Certified Systems Doctors" or "C# Lawyers" so why does the IEEE/SAE/etc. sit on their hands when the word "Engineer" is abused?

    1. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by clambake · · Score: 1

      why does the IEEE/SAE/etc. sit on their hands when the word "Engineer" is abused?

      Wow, wouldn't THAT shake the foundations of computings... Don't forget, a healthy percentage of the "engineers" that created the entire industry are college dropouts. I suspect at least a few on the IEEE board are not technically qualified (acedemically, I am talking) to judge others...

    2. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by heinousjay · · Score: 2, Funny

      and why does Amtrak let you people get away with it?

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    3. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by prof.morbius · · Score: 1

      Wonder what your feelings are on Systems/Network Engineering as a (my) field?

      --
      "A plan's just a list of things that don't happen" -- Mr. Parker, "The Way of the Gun"
    4. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by SaDan · · Score: 1

      I made my current employer change my job title from "Systems Engineer" to "Systems Administrator" after taking the position.

      I don't get paid nearly enough to be called an engineer, let alone warrant the implied liabilities of being labeled an engineer. :-)

    5. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by evlmonkey · · Score: 1
      So I take it that you have a degree in some type of Engineering? I'm 3/4 of the way through a degree in Network Engineering, so I suppose if I take a position as a Network or Systems Engineer after I graduate I would be doing the world a huge injustice?

      An engineer by definition is someone who plans, builds or designs. Or, you can even go as far as saying that it is someone who operates an engine.

      See your examples were just asinine. Doctor, has about 20 different definitions most relating to medicine. A lawyer has suprisingly two definitions, "one who gives legal advice...etc" and "serpent" :) j/k

      I'm curious to find out what person graduated with a 4 yr degree in Engineering but yet never took an intro to persuasive writing class, or maybe even Col. Writ. 110. Apples to apples, not apples to carburetors.

      And finally, the stopper to my rambling. To answer your question "Why would an Engineer get an MCSE", I'll ask a question. Why would a MD go back to school to become a cardiologist? Because that's what he needs to do to become specialized in that field and to become respected and accredited for those qualifications.
      And to get a new Bentley.

    6. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by pyite · · Score: 1

      I won't speak for everyone with or pursuing a degree in engineering*, but I would venture to say that most of us would consider an MCSE to be below us. Sorry, but that's how it is. I'm not going to waste my time studying for something only to sit for an exam along with high school dropouts. MCSEs are so watered down, they're not worth having. That and well, I don't have any desire to administer a Windows system. The same thing can be applied to other certs, however. CCNAs are not as bad, but getting there. At least when you hire an engineer* you have a reasonable belief that they made it through a four year, mentally challenging program covering various aspects of the mathematical sciences.

      * By engineer[ing], I refer to the term which connotes a four or more year accredited engineering degree program consisting of things like four semesters of calculus, several of physics, and the various subject specific courses in a mechanical, electrical, chemical, etc. concentration.

      --

      "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

    7. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by evlmonkey · · Score: 1
      To some extent I agree with you. I highly respect indiviuals with engineering degrees because I am aware of the grueling courses such as Calc and Linear Algebra as I took these in high school while enrolled in a advanced Mathematics and Science Center. However, for a person who is pursuing a position as an administrator (or whatever title society deems correct) that wants a career in the networking field, its extremely difficult to do so without some type of certification.

      The counter to your argument regarding 4 year degrees. Two things. First, there are very very few reputable accredited Universities that actually offer a 4 year degree in the networking field. Meaning that you take classes relating to operating systems, hardware, networking, security, data backup, etc. I currently am going to a University that offers these things and will shortly be finishing with a degree in networking, most likely most of you haven't even heard of this school. www.davenport.edu. Is it the best school, not even close, but until educators decide that networking is actually a field that requires a degree program we won't start to see our State schools offering these degrees. Even after I have graduated with my degree, I will continue to pursue certifications, as employers see this as a way to verify that their potential hire is still current on new technologies. Second, will the degree program I finish this upcoming year include all the technologies for the next 20? Just because I'll have a degree in a year doesn't mean that the knowledge from it will be pertinent or current 5 years from now.

      As for engineering, engineers as you describe (based on your definition above) have no business administrating networks. Why would I want to hire a mechanical engineer to replace a Cisco 3640? Why would someone in the networking field need four semesters of Calc, or several of physics? Why would a chemical engineer need an MCSE? I work with both mechanical and electical engineers in my currect position as an IT Manager for a pipe fabrication and sheet metal firm that does contracting for Pfizer and Stryker. These guys definitely aren't idiots, most of them graduated from U of M with their engineering degree, and not one of them could tell me what gigabit ethernet is.

      Only one thing can happen to prevent the ever dreaded paper MCSE, CCNA, and so on. Schools nationwide need to create degree programs to cater to the ever growing field of IT (not CS, not programming which can be found at any public university) but actual networking, routing, security, sys admin, etc. Until then, HR in corporations will have no idea what criteria to hire based upon, and will have to resort on certifications and experience as deciding factors.

    8. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by pyite · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is, while I disagree with some finer points of yours, I agree with you overall. It is very difficult to find real networking programs and not just programs that teach networking on a votech level. As for your points about engineers, I work in networking and several people I work with are engineers (mostly mechanical). Engineering education is about learning to solve problems, not learning a specific skillset.

      I have a pretty simple rule. If the place where I'm applying requires a CCNA or similar and will not even consider someone who doesn't have a certain cert, I don't want to work there. Does that put me at a disadvantage? Possibly. But more likely than not, it just improves the signal to noise ratio of any job offers I get.

      --

      "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

    9. Re:Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? by evlmonkey · · Score: 1
      :) You're right. It seems as though there are more and more votech schools that are just churning out paper MCSE, A+, etc students that have no real hands on experience, have no other abilities other than PC repair and yet are placed in these IT roles that they aren't qualified for.

      I remember when I first started out I had an ISP tech support job. I had finished my CCNA track (4 semesters of school, actual in class, on real routers schooling) and the best I could do was help desk. I tried to get a job as a PC repair tech for a local consulting firm and was told that they would not consider hiring me until I had a minimum of an MCP! Reluctantly I went and got my MCP, suffered through 2 years at that job and was able to use the experience from that position to later further my career. Since then I have not been required to have any specific certifications, but without that I'm not sure how I would have gotten my foot in the door.

  11. Re:Is this what you're asking? by wolf- · · Score: 1

    Not really.
    Organization has x number of MCSEs.
    Company now is a "Solution Provider".
    Microsoft sends work to your door. Large work.

    --
    ----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
  12. The purpose of taking the exam is to pass it. by mosel-saar-ruwer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    However, I found those particular books to be quite useless and found that cramming for the test using Braindumps and practice exams the night before was far more effective and relevant to the test content. I did not even bother finishing the 70-290 book.

    The purpose of taking the exam is to pass it. Short of outright cheating, it doesn't matter how you pass it, only that you pass it.

    It also doesn't matter whether you retain any of the knowledge afterwards: ALL THAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU RECEIVE THE SHEEPSKIN.*

    I'm with you: Purchase the practice exams, and study backwards from there, i.e. investigate the theory behind only those questions you can't answer correctly a priori.

    *If you are wondering, the purpose of the sheepskin is to help you get your foot in the door, or, if you're already inside, to help in justifying a raise in salary [and maybe a promotion to a more chi-chi sounding job title].

    1. Re:The purpose of taking the exam is to pass it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's not often that someone will admit to the true role of university in modern society. I call it a "cult", but that might be a bit harsh. It certainly isn't about "learning to learn", or any sort of intellectual achievement.


      I often wonder how 4 years of school can turn a teenage Britney Spears-clone into an electrical engineer, yet somehow a person who has been learning on his own since childhood is looked down upon.


      True story: in an interview for a technical job at a telecom company, I said I never went to university, but learned on my own. I got the most condescending "Oh, you're one of those".
      Looking at the company's value it's my turn to say, "Oh, one of those"... Bastards! May they stay in penny stock hell for ever!

    2. Re:The purpose of taking the exam is to pass it. by bhtooefr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The rationale behind going for a 4 year is that if you spent all that time working towards it, and taking bullsh!t classes along the way, then you'll be a hard worker that can take bullsh!t.

  13. The actual value of certifications by gseidman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yeah, certifications mean nothing to people who know anything about the craft of software engineering. That right there tells you why you'd bother getting them. I've just started with a consulting company, and they require their developers to get four certifications a year (and give a bonus for each one). It isn't because the certifications make the developers better, but because it makes them more marketable to potential clients who know neither jack nor shit about software. The only criteria those potential clients have to judge a consulting company on are 1) case studies of previous projects, and 2) arbitrary measures of skill like "90% of our developers hold MCSE certifications."

    Forget for the moment that you know anything about software development. Forget that you give a damn about the differences between C#, Java, C, and Perl. Forget that you actually comprehend why an object-oriented programming paradigm benefits certain kinds of software projects. You're just a guy at some company who has a business or even liberal arts degree, who understands just enough about computers to expect email to be sent and received by Outlook, and who has been tasked with replacing/upgrading some mission-critical software system by the end of the fiscal year. How do you judge who should do the work? You know all the computers at work run Microsoft [sic]. You are told by these consulting companies who are bidding on your project that the M in MCSE stands for Microsoft. You figure that's got to be good, so the company with the most MCSE thud factor sounds the best, especially if their bid is near the lowest.

    That's how business is conducted in the real world. This also applies to hiring developers internally. I refer you to Paul Graham's essay on how it takes a good hacker to know a good hacker. For those unfortunate companies who do not have good hackers in their employ to judge the quality of potential developer employees/contractors, the certifications are the next best thing (however sad that may be).

    I don't have any certifications at the moment, but I expect to have an MCSE within a year or so. I need to know the material so I can do my job, and that will come by actually doing it. I also need to know the material well enough to pass the tests, and for that I recommend hitting the library. I'll be damned if I'm going to buy books for this crap if I can possibly avoid it. My colleagues at this company recommend the Exam Cram series, but I found MCAD/MCSD Self-Paced Training books (from Microsoft Press) at my library, so that's what I'm using.

    1. Re:The actual value of certifications by dubious9 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Thank you. I agree completely. When I started reading this thread I waded through the OMG WTF! MSCE is teh SUXOR!!. However, in the real world, it may get you in the door. And anything that helps you do that is pretty much worth the effort.

      I'm looking for a job right now and have my resume submitted to several different tech staffing places. Even though I'm not looking for any MS position, they *all* suggested getting an MSCE and RHCE or LPI. Right now I don't have the money to do RHCE, so I'm getting an LPI and MSCE to pad the resume.

      Yes most certs are effectively useless and judged that way by the people who know. Rarely, however, do the people that know tech, bring you in for the first interview. 90% are HR people who only care about keywords and certs. "Oh we need somebody to do JNI, if this Java guy doesn't have it on his resume, then it's out-pile for him", even though, to me listing every obscure java related tech looks pretty rediculous.

      At the suggestion of several people I wrote two different resumes according to who would be reading it. The dumbed-down "at-a-glace" resume for the HR people to get me in the door and the "real" version that doesn't make me look like a tool to the technical people.

      In conclusion, don't knock trying to get an MSCE. Even though it sucks, it will help you. Even though its fairly worthless, it gets you in the door with people that don't know that. Furthermore, if you've gotten it without your employer paying for it it makes you look like you're doing everything you can to stay abreast of things in the indstry.

      --
      Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
    2. Re:The actual value of certifications by fm6 · · Score: 1
      Yeah, certifications mean nothing to people who know anything about the craft of software engineering.
      True, but totally offtopic. Leaving aside the fact that we're talking about IT jobs, not software engineering, the fact remains that certifications are essential to most resumes. You can talk all you want about how people should be evaluated according to their individual merits. (I'd certainly like to be, since my formal credentials suck.) Doesn't change the fact that degrees, certficiations and other pieces of paper are what HR gatekeepers and hiring managers look for.

      The computer industry has gotten more bureaucratic. Which means the day is past when a smart guy can land a good job just by talking about what he knows and has accomplished. It's not a good thing, but it's not going to change, either.

  14. MS books seem written for ease of the writers. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Insightful


    "... I simply read the Microsoft Press books related to the test. However, I found those particular books to be quite useless..."

    Thank you for saying that. It's good to see the relative uselessness of Microsoft publications be discussed publically.

    When I try to analyze why MS books and web sites are so useless, I come to the conclusion it is because they are written with the philosophy that most important issue is the ease of the writers, not the ease of the readers.

    I suppose that Microsoft writers and editors think "Why try harder?" Anything they publish will be sold to people who don't have enough expertise in the subject of the book to realize that the book is very scattered and that it leaves out important information.

    For example, consider the file encryption in Windows XP, called EFS, Encryping File System. EFS is very poorly documented. The encryption is tied to the user's password in a way that is apparently not documented. EFS depends on being part of a Windows 2003 Server domain in a way that is not clearly documented; if you are using Windows XP on a stand alone computer, there are situations in which you can lose your files forever, even if you have made all the backups suggested in the Microsoft books and web sites.

    (Microsoft Technical Support agrees with what I just said, and provides no help or workarounds.)

    The official Microsoft forums contain complaints of many people who have lost their files due to problems with EFS.

    --
    If your gov't chose killing as policy, expect others to choose the same.

    1. Re:MS books seem written for ease of the writers. by Jerf · · Score: 1

      Re: Losing your files if you encrypt them on a standalone computer: Ultimately, if you lose the password, the files should be gone forever if there is no other vector to recover them. Any method of recovering them represents a security hole.

      Encryption is a statement that you want only "authorized people" to view the files, where you indicate authorization by possession of a password. If you forget how to tell the computer you're an authorized person, losing the files is a feature, not a bug. If that scenario is unacceptable, you need to secure your files with something other than encryption!

      WTF is Microsoft supposed to do, exactly, in the single computer case that doesn't render the encryption merely a minor stumbling block for an attacker? (At which point I suggest you might be bitching about the pointlessness of it all instead... I'm not a big fan of Microsoft but I hate "damned if you do, damned if you don't" attitudes even more.)

    2. Re:MS books seem written for ease of the writers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, Microsoft Press publish a number of very good books, such as Steve McConnell's work.

      Dunno why, but although it's Microsoft's core market, the software they make is awful, but the rest of the things that they do are pretty good, like their books and peripherals.

  15. MCE and other certs by sethadam1 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have my NT 4.0 certs, and because back then, getting a Microsoft cert meant you could read a book and/or memorize the Transcender tests which were the exact same question with "Bob" substituted in for "Sally."

    Recently, I did some work with some third party engineers on a few projects, and was surprised to find that they, like many companies, will not hire non-MCSAs these days. I did some additional research, and found this to be true - the certs are MUCH harder to get these days than they used to be, and the majority of the companies I called said that certs was a "make or break" when they reviewed resumes.

    Here at Slashdot, you'll get a thousand idiots making fun of Microsoft, telling you to use Linux, and saying your MCSE isn't worth shit.

    Let me dispell that rumor: THEY ARE WRONG. Don't listen to them, their knowledge is VERY outdated. Get your MCSE - it will mean a better job and higher pay, no matter what anyone here tells you.

    1. Re:MCE and other certs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, and this mirrors my own experience. YOU may not think it's worth anything, but when NOBODY will hire you without one, you realize it's just time to suck it up and go with the flow.

    2. Re:MCE and other certs by chris_mahan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At my company (fortune 500 in healthcare), in my group, we could not care less about certs. I know, because I am one of the people that reviews resumes.

      I tell you what's more important: the actual experience.

      If I see a resume that says:

      EXPERIENCE
      2003-2005 Some Medium Company,
      Software engineer.
      Explored, Designed, and Implemented system with Oracle and MSSQL back-ends, data import from csv, excel, access, and xml from EDI and FTP drop-offs, data processing with informatica and dts, tomcat with hibernate and spring, to browser-neutral xhtml1.1, with support for handhelds and pdf generators, with export to excel and automated rule-based email alerts.

      I tell you, I read no further. I say: bring the guy in.
      And somebody with the above experience: we'll bring in at no less than $90K

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    3. Re:MCE and other certs by evlmonkey · · Score: 1
      I completely agree. A few years back you could simply pick up a transcender and memorize the questions and pass the test the next day. Its not like that anymore. True, you can still find a few places that have actual test questions, but for the most part all you are going to find are questions from previous versions of the test, that at the very best give you a feel for how the questions are written and what will be expected. Anyone who has their CCNA (which btw I hope all of you critizing certifications has at least a CCNP or CCIE seeing as how worthless they are) will know that just because its a paper test and not a hands on exam doesn't mean that you aren't thrown into real life instances.

      Certifications are around for a point. Whether HR knows as much as a MOUS or as much as a CCIE they don't have the time or resources to manually qualify each applicant. Imagine sitting with 300 applicants asking each to install Win2K3 with Exchange.

      Certifications at the very least say "This guy at least had the initiative to get off his behind and pay the $125.00 to take the test and pass it." That's better than the guy next to him that either didn't or failed.

  16. Exam Cram Books or Why MCSE is a good thing. by MichaelMarch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These little red books ar the best books out there. As for reading the Braindumps, I myself have read those over from time to time. Here's the math on the exams, from what I've noticed and been told. The number might not be correct but they are close as each exam is a little unique in there numbers. There is a total of 600 questions they can ask you for the exams, so say there is only six topics that divides up into 100 selectable questions for each topic. Now in each topic there is 10 questions. So each time you do the exam you get a 1/10 chances of seeing the same question. The point is, if you can read and remember 600 questions and assume that braindump has all those questions and all the questions are correct.. Then all the power to you. The real reason any MCP exam is worth anything, is to get your foot into the job interview. Seeing a MCSE 2000 or even a MCSE 2003 certification means they are serious about working in the IT field and they are not just some joe who likes computers and spends all his spare time talking on IM with people he will never meet and thinks he knows it all about computers. Any REAL computer/network experince comes from doing it and not READing about it.+

  17. Real Advice by Doc+Squidly · · Score: 1

    You're already have access to servers and a network. Use it. Practice working on the skills that are listed in the test objectives. If you can't or don't want to do this on you companies network, set up a lab at home. (at least 2 servers, recommend VMWare or Virtual PC to get a more systems going, if you want)

    The MS Press books are ok but they don't spoon-feed you. Sybex books are also good. You'll get the most out of them is you spend time applying what you learned in the lab.

    Avoid Braindumps. You goals should be to learn not just pass the test.

    I recommend visiting the forum at Tek-Tips for more advice on certifications.

    Good Luck

    --
    I think I think, therefore I think I am.
  18. There is still value in haveing them. by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unfortunately, yes, that is the best use for them. Today, to get a job in many places, these worthless certs are required. So why NOT cheat with testing aids? If these things are worthless as skill indicators but still needed to land a PAYING gig, than there is still value in having them.

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
  19. feeding a troll by bubbaD · · Score: 3, Interesting

    /.er's make fun of Microsoft because the MCSE is only helpful in getting a job and not really learning about computers.
    This has been true for a long time, and has nothing to do with "outdated knowledge." By all means get certified if it gets your foot in the door. But if you want to enjoy using computers, use un*x when you can.
    Anyone who doesn't know this already should not be entering the field at all, not debating what kind of certifications to get.

  20. Here I am with a brain the size of a planet... by bubbaD · · Score: 1

    "Here I am with a brain the size of a planet and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper. Call that job satisfaction? I don't. " Marvin the robot

    Actually Eye surgeons do cram, especially in pre-med. They're supposed to learn all about general anatomy and things that don't pertain to eye surgery. The "certification nonsense" is a problem in bureacracies everywhere. Oh well. Life, don't talk to me about life...

  21. Real BAD Advice by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Avoid Braindumps. You goals should be to learn not just pass the test.

    In an ideal world, yes. But if the primary goal of obtaining a cert is to get a better position with a company that for whatever reason requires MS certs, than I see no problem at all with braindumps and cramming.

    Everyone around here says that MS certs are worthless as indicators of practical knowledge, so why mess around with anything that is not designed to help you pass in the quickest possible way? Of course knowing what you are doing is a good idea, but that's not why most people study for MS certs, and I'm not even sure it's why companies require MS certs.

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
  22. MCSE, What it really means. by qualico · · Score: 2, Funny

    When hiring contractors or staff, if there is mention of MCSE, I file the resume into /dev/null.
    When taking on clients, if they ask me for MCSE, I file them into...you guessed it.../dev/null.

    1. Re:MCSE, What it really means. by Knightfall · · Score: 1

      You do realize that is an absolutely moronic statement to make and if you actually follow that practice you have NO business hiring ANYONE don't you? I have had the fortune of working with many great admins and techs who had the alphabet soup next to their names and on their resumes because their employers at some point forced them to.

      Read the whole resume somtime, you might be passing on some great talent!

      --


      Knightfall
    2. Re:MCSE, What it really means. by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      I don't have an MCSE. Wanna hire me?

      +++
      http://www.drudgereport.com for the truth.

    3. Re:MCSE, What it really means. by qualico · · Score: 1

      oh no!, Devry advertisements.
      Just as bad as MCSE.
      >/dev/null

  23. Re:Is this what you're asking? by Tom7 · · Score: 1

    I'm not saying that there is no practical de facto significance to them, just that, as the poster has realized, passing MCSE has little to do with actually understanding the material.

  24. Windows XP makes another password, not backed up. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    I was talking about people who did not lose their password or encryption certificates, obviously.

    The problem is that Windows XP makes an additional password, one that is not backed up using any of the tools or documents provided. That automatically generated password is necessary, as well as the user account password, to decrypt the files.

    If a computer is stand-alone, not part of a domain, then backing up everything, reformatting your hard drive, and reloading Windows XP will result in not having access to any of your EFS encrypted files.

    The hidden, automatically generated password is not documented in any place that I was able to find. Microsoft Technical Support representatives agree with what I've said here.

    The open source Truecrypt may be a far better choice, but I haven't tried it yet. Sourceforge hosts Truecrypt.

  25. Slashdot is becoming like Dell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Spamming you with Windows crap that you didn't want in the first place.

  26. Real BAD... Ethics by Doc+Squidly · · Score: 1

    Sure, use the Briandumps but when people ask you how hard was it to get your MCSE, just tell them "Easy, I just bought the anwsers."

    Let me know how they react.

    If there is one thing that devalues any certification, it is cheating.

    --
    I think I think, therefore I think I am.
  27. Bah. Useless. by VoiceOfDoom · · Score: 1

    If someone else is paying, go for it. If not, spend your money more wisely on a cert that will actually test your knowledge and troubleshooting skills, instead of a cert that will have you parrot the M$ party line and give you *NO* actual technical knowledge at all.

    I did my MCSA (never finished the MCSE - couldn't face those pointless design exams) and thought I knew loads. I have since discovered I knew *nothing*. In fact, I had to un-learn everything M$ had taught as I came to realise that the exams were nothing more than a tool to indoctrinate more people into the M$ party line, and to make loads more cash for M$.

    I used to sysadmin at a company that sold IT training courses, and comparing the M$ stuff to...say...the Cisco or CompTIA stuff, it's ludicrous. Most of my 2000 exams were nothing more than memorising default settings and learning to say "hardware compatibility list". Useless. Pointless. No actual technical information there at all.

    Trouble is, most HR and clueless managers revere the M$ certs as some kind of gospel. Sigh. If only they knew.

    --
    "Life is pain Highness. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something"

    Westly, The Princess Bride

  28. No, no no... by schon · · Score: 1

    It's

    Must Consult Someone Experienced

  29. Re:Windows XP makes another password, not backed u by nachoboy · · Score: 1

    The problem is that Windows XP makes an additional password, one that is not backed up using any of the tools or documents provided. That automatically generated password is necessary, as well as the user account password, to decrypt the files.

    Rather than making vague claims about what hidden, undocumented passwords are preventing you from using EFS (or recovering your data), why not start reading?

    I really have very little sympathy for those who whine about how much EFS sucks. First of all, one must make an explicit decision to use EFS. If you are going out of your way to protect your files, it's in your best interests to research how you can back up whatever passwords, certificates, or keys necessary to maintain access to your files.

    Some particular sections that may be of interest to you and help dispel the FUD:

    The Decryption Process
    How EFS Uses Certificates
    Exporting and Importing EFS and DRA Certificates and Private Keys: "You can use the Certificate Export wizard to export a certificate and private key to a removable medium."
    Backing Up and Restoring Encrypted Files or Folders: "Opening restored, encrypted files is no different from decrypting and opening any encrypted files. However, if files are restored from backup onto a new computer, in a new forest, or at any location at which the user's profile (and thus the private key needed to decrypt the files) is not available, the user can import an EFS certificate and private key. After importing the certificate and private key, the user can decrypt the files."
    Data Recovery and Data Recovery Agents: "The default design for the EFS recovery policy is different in Windows XP Professional than it was in Windows 2000 Professional. Stand-alone computers do not have a default DRA, but Microsoft strongly recommends that all environments have at least one designated DRA."

  30. You're basically screwed by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    My bro ran into this studing for his certs. The Microsoft books are organized in such a way that each book has some necessary and vital information and a ton of filler. So you're stuck buying them _all_ for a complete overview of Microsoft systems. Welcome to the wonderful world of Microsoft press. You're better off with brain dumps, but OHOT you run the risk of becomming a paper MCSE.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  31. I stand by what I said: EFS not for stand-alone c. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    Your post amazes me. I said in my grandparent post that Microsoft Technical Support staff agrees with what I've written about EFS. Yet you assume that you know everything about the subject, and cannot possibly have made a mistake.

    It is VERY easy to encrypt a folder: Right-click on a folder. Choose Properties/ Advanced/ Encrypt contents to secure data/.

    It is very difficult to realize that all of Microsoft's technical documentation leaves out an important point. The documents about backup methods don't mention that they don't work with stand-alone computers.

    How is "generates a hidden password" a vague claim?

    Your comment helps support what I've said, that Microsoft technical literature is of amazingly poor quality, by giving links to 6 articles about how EFS works.

    It is VERY easy to get started with EFS on a stand-alone computer. It is very difficult to know that it is not possible to back up all the passwords.

    My comment applies ONLY to stand-alone computers, not those that are part of a domain.

  32. Why is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is it that the only Microsoft related discussions on Slashdot that don't end up as blatant bash fests are the ones that deal with the Xbox 360?

  33. Devry? by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    I have a real degree, from a real school.

    +++
    My new Home

  34. Real meaning of MCSE by bluelip · · Score: 1

    I was told that MCSE really means:

    Mine-sweeper Consultant, Solitaire Expert

    -or-

    Must Consult Someone Experienced

    --

    Yep, I never spell check.
    More incorrect spellings can be found he
    1. Re:Real meaning of MCSE by qualico · · Score: 1

      lol!
      That has to get mod up.

  35. Re:Windows XP makes another password, not backed u by Spoing · · Score: 1
    TrueCrypt is fantastic. It mounts encrypted volumes as drive letters, though, and has the Windows limitation of not being able to mount at arbitrary locations on arbitrary file systems; if you want your user data to be encrypted, you have to configure everyone's directory to be encrypted.

    Junctions/hard~soft-links may not work (tend to be a PITA under Windows, so I haven't tried with TrueCrypt).

    --
    A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  36. TrueCrypt: Have you had any problems? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    Thanks for the information.

    I've been worried about TrueCrypt, because the latest version fixed a lot of what look like serious bugs. I wonder how many other bugs are there.

    Have you had any problems?

    1. Re:TrueCrypt: Have you had any problems? by Spoing · · Score: 1
      Nope. Can't say I've stressed it too much, though I trust it enough to use on primary data for a specific project. Backing it up is simple; either copy the data from the mounted drive file or unmount it and backup the file itself.

      The one thing I want to check (but haven't) is if a volume encrypted with TrueCrypt can be decrypted with any other tool that has the same encryption scheme. (Does the file decrypt and does it appear as a logical drive image?)

      If that is the case, it would be a handy way of transfering data securly between Windows and non-Windows systems.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  37. Another example of Microsoft's abusiveness. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    Here's another example of Microsoft's lack of caring toward its customers: The SchTasks documentation.

    Look at the second line: To view the command syntax, click the following command:

    Notice that there are no links.

    Note that the line: schtasks create should be bold, but isn't.

    It should say that this command replaces AT.EXE, but it doesn't.

    A list of all of Microsoft's abusiveness would require many, many books.

  38. Re:I stand by what I said: EFS not for stand-alone by nachoboy · · Score: 1

    [A]ll of Microsoft's technical documentation leaves out an important point. The documents about backup methods don't mention that they don't work with stand-alone computers. ... it is not possible to back up all the passwords.

    I submit that not only are you incorrect, the Microsoft technical support agent you spoke to was either misinformed, or you misunderstood him.

    Your statement:

    "If a computer is stand-alone, not part of a domain, then backing up everything, reformatting your hard drive, and reloading Windows XP will result in not having access to any of your EFS encrypted files."

    Let's not forget that you are talking about people who have backed up their certificates:

    "I was talking about people who did not lose their password or encryption certificates, obviously."

    Here's what I know and can be verified. The published documentation regarding EFS provides two ways for a user to recover their encrypted data: with the user's certificate, or with a Designated Recovery Agent (DRA). This principle holds true regardless of whether the computer is in a domain or stand-alone environment. Let's discuss each:

    1) Restore the users's previously-backed up user certificate (and private key) to the machine. There is no hidden or extra password required. Just the user's certificate and accompanying private key. This applies EVEN in a stand-alone environment. The documentation supports this and this can be independently verified on any standalone Windows XP machine.

    (Note that when exporting a user's certifiate and choosing to include the private key, the user will be prompted for a password. This is used to secure the private key and the user must remember this password to restore the private key. However, this password is in no way hidden or undocumented.)

    2) Use a Desginated Recovery Agent's certificate and key to decrypt the files. This is the part I believe around which there may be some confusion, because behavior around automatically created DRA's varies between stand-alone and domain-joined computers. As I pointed out in the grandparent post, "Stand-alone computers do not have a default DRA, but Microsoft strongly recommends that all environments have at least one designated DRA."

    Therefore, if a user does not back up his user certificate (including private key) on a standalone Windows XP box before formatting the drive, AND there was no previously-specified DRA, he will subsequently not be able to access his encrypted data. This is by design, however, and fully documented. There is no hidden password you can use to ever recover the data.

    Please, if you still disagree with me, I urge you to
    1) Read the documentation (all the links in the grandparent post are links to individual topics in the single chapter on EFS in the Windows XP Resource Kit). You can find similar information in the OS help by searching for "efs" or "encryption".
    2) Try it yourself. You don't have to take my word, or the word of a technical support agent. Use a virtual machine (in Virtual PC or VMWare) for a convenient fully-reproducible scenario on demand.
    3) If you're still in doubt, let me know how I can contact you directly. I hate to see falsehoods perpetuated as truth, and I'm willing to work with you until we both agree what that truth is.

  39. EFS & stand-alone computers? Can you make it w by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    Interesting. I've spent many hours trying to make it work, exactly as you say. I have plenty of test computers here, so that's no problem.

    I would like you to try it yourself. If you can do the steps below successfully, then it would be great to work with you to understand how to do it.

    My best understanding is that Windows XP generates an additional password that is not in the certificates, and ties EFS encrypted documents to that generated password and to the user's logon password, as well as the certificates. Restoring the certificates makes no difference. I had no trouble making and restoring the certificates. But I was never successful at accessing EFS encrypted data on a second stand-alone computer, when neither have ever been part of a domain.

    Here's what I've done:

    1) Make a test folder, and encrypt it.

    2) Backup the certificates, exactly as described in the documentation.

    3) Copy the encrypted test folder to a second computer, using xcopy on a peer-to-peer network.

    4) Log in to the second computer with the same user name and password.

    5) Restore the certificates from step 2 to the second computer.

    6) Try to access the encrypted test folder on the second computer.

    7) I always got an access error. I was told by Microsoft technical support that there was no way to make a restore to a second computer successful.

    However, Microsoft does sell a tool that costs more than $200 that apparently does allow recovering the generated password. There is also a web page written by someone with poor language skills, not an employee of Microsoft, who tells how to recover the generated password manually. I haven't tried either of these, because the EFS documentation is sloppy enough that I began to be scared that there would be other shortcomings.

    If you search Microsoft newsgroups, you will find many people who have lost their data. It's very easy to get started with EFS, and the steps to get started make no mention of certificates. It would be easy for there to be a small window that says, "You must back up your certificates. Click here." But there is no such warning, and people are losing their work because they have not backed up the certificates, and also because the documentation says nothing about the apparent fact that EFS does not work with stand-alone computers, since there is no way to do a working backup.

    If you are able to do EFS backups and restores on stand-alone computers, I would very much like to work with you.

    In my opinion, Microsoft has a huge problem with documentation. The company's document development seems to go like this: 1) Someone writes a rough draft. That person is not technically knowledgeable, and leaves out important information. 2) Whoever acts as an editor, if anyone, has a very weak influence. 3) It is discovered that information must be added. But writer convenience rules. The new material is not integrated into the old material. Instead, a new web page or new article is written.

    As I wrote elsewhere, the SchTasks documentation is a good example of this. Look at the second line: To view the command syntax, click the following command:

    However, notice that there are no links. Notice that the line: schtasks create should be bold, but isn't. It should say that this command replaces AT.EXE, but it doesn't.

    In my opinion, Microsoft's sloppiness with documents wastes the time of intelligent people and is self-destructive. By far, one of the best ways for Microsoft to compete with Linux is to produce extremely good documentation.

  40. Re:EFS & stand-alone computers? Can you make i by nachoboy · · Score: 1

    Apologies for the late response, I didn't have time to set up a proper test environment until this evening.

    I used Virtual Server for this experiment. I started with one clean Windows XP SP2 image, with the Microsoft VM Additions (for improved performance in Virtual Server) and all current patches. To represent a true, imaged environment, I sysprep'd this machine and then created 2 child virtual machines from this common base. The sysprep process ensures that the machine's name and all security identifiers are unique, and is the only Microsoft-supported method for deploying imaged computers.

    I created a small .vhd to share between the 2 virtual machines, which will contain the encrypted test data.

    I started machine 1 and named it EncTest1. On this machine I created 2 new users, test1 and test2. As user test1, I created a folder d:\testdir. Note that this folder is on the secondary hard drive (not the operating system drive). I created a text file in this directory, and then used Windows Explorer to encrypt the entire folder (including this folder, subfolders, and files). I verified that user test1 was able to access this file, and user test2 was not able to access this file.

    I then used the certificate manager to export the certificate and private key belonging to user test1. It is VERY important during this process to check the box to export the user's private key as well. The private key is required to be able to decrypt files. However, the default choice when exporting a certificate is to NOT include the private key along with it. Select the option "Yes, export the private key" during this process. The certificate will be stored in a .pfx file. I stored the .pfx file on the D: (shared) drive.

    We now have all the files and information required to simulate a crash or other unexpected loss of the original operating system and user's profile. I shut down EncTest1 and started our second machine, EncTest2. I attached the shared hard drive used in EncTest1 to our new recovery machine, EncTest2. Note that I did not xcopy the files to or from any system. You cannot copy an encrypted file to another machine on which the user does not have a certificate. If you are able to copy encrypted files to another system, you need to verify exactly which users/certificates still have access to those files (by using the Details button in file properties, advanced).

    At this point, to decrypt the files, only two things are required: the user test1's user certificate and private key. Both are contained in the .pfx file we exported earlier. No other similarities to the original environment are required (ie, usernames, passwords, and machine names are not required to match.) I created two new users test3 and test4 on EncTest2, and verified that as user test3, I was not able to access the encrypted test file in d:\testdir. Then, using certificate manager, I imported the .pfx containing user test1's user certificate and private key. Instantly, without even logging off, I was able to access the encrypted file in d:\testdir, as expected.

    To verify this was the result solely of the certificate I imported, I then logged in as user test4 and confirmed that I was unable to access the content in d:\testdir.

    If you'd like to verify my results, I can make available to you the .vhd representing the shared drive between these two virtual machines. It contains the user test1's user certificate (including private key), and an encrypted directory. You'll be able to do exactly as I did: import the certificate and gain access to the encrypted content.

    With that, I'd like to cover a few other points:

    - Yes, it's very easy to lose access to your encrypted files if the proper precautionary measures are not taken. This could possibly be remedied by a more proactive backup process or more documentation, but is not a limitation of the EFS design.
    - Getti

  41. Should EFS be used in corporate SA environments? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    For me, the entire issue is whether EFS can and should be used in a corporate environment with stand-alone computers.

    I found the page about recovering from EFS problems: EFS Encrypted File System recovery.

    This gives a map of how things are stored: "Unfinished 1024*768 image giving a brief overview".

    For $99 you can get a program to decrypt EFS files without knowing the password: Advanced EFS Data Recovery. I haven't tried it. Elcomsoft is a very well-known company.

    Answer to your comment above:

    1) There must be a way to make encrypted backups of encrypted material, both live (on another computer) and on optical media.

    2) What would be interesting is if you could recover encrypted files on another computer. The whole issue is whether you have a real backup. A situation in which you used a Microsoft product on one computer, as you have above, will never be a true test. The test you did is interesting, but actual recovery must be available on another computer.

    3) There is no way to detach EFS decryption from social issues. People are led to use encryption by the ease of starting to use EFS, without any warning that there is a need to follow a procedure to save "certificates". People entrust information about their lives and their business to computers. That trust must be strongly supported.

    My guess is that somehow Virtual Server provides additional information not available to another stand-alone computer.

  42. Slashdot error? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1


    Slashdot error? Please see comment: 13057950.

  43. Sybex by dejaffa · · Score: 1

    My experience with certifications from several vendors (ex-consultant who used the certs to get in the door) is that the books from the vendor itself are almost always useless. This is for several reasons, but one of them is that the vendor has a vested interest in creating the impression that the certification is difficult to get.*

    The Sybex study guides I have used have all been excellent.

    *Not to mention the whole "Save the world by using NetWare" BS in the Novell guides. I could not finish the first one I read.

    --
    There is no 'i' in team, but there is in fiasco...