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Wired Strongarms Subscribers?
yali writes "Wired has apparently been sinking to some rather low tactics with ex-subscribers. Namely, siccing a collections agency on them. If you let your subscription run out, you might get one of these. Nerds beware." From the article: "First came the usual letters warning McMillan, 36, that his subscription was up and that he wouldn't get any more copies of Wired unless he ponied up some cash. Then Wired's correspondence took a different turn. In May, McMillan received a letter from North Shore Agency, a leading debt-collection firm. The letter, headed 'Please Respond,' said he owed $12 for his Wired subscription."
We already know it's plain stoopid - but isn't 'inertia' selling illegal in the US? If not - why not? (ok, I don't really expect a straight answer to that second question).
The Mothership
The people who got the letters agreed to a recurring subscription. They had to notify wired to get the subscription canceled.
always read the fine print!
I've seen this tactic before. The 'collection agency' in question barely even exists, and certainly has no teeth. It's simply a very shady tactic, used by several magazines, to trick people into subscribing - sometimes they'll even send these notices to people who have never subscribed. Just garbage the letter and you'll be fine.
Paul Anderson
"I drank WHAT?!" -- Socrates
I tried a subscription, sent in my cheque. Months go by, cheque not cashed, no mags. I try to call them... has anybody found their phone number? So I email them. They say they never got the cheque. So I send another. Poof, instantly both cheques are cashed, ON THE SAME DAY. Pissed, I email them. Every email I send goes absolutely ignored by Wired, including an attempt to cancel my subscription. So I suffered through two years of Wired. Can't say as I found anything worthwhile in there the whole time. They sent me renewal notices which I ignored just like they ignored me.
As far as I can tell, Wired is just a group of scammers.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
RTFA.
Circumcision is child abuse.
It's pretty easy to never have a problem from magazine companies...just sign up for magazines under a different name than your own...I did it all the time at college. If they don't know your real name, then they can't fraudulently bill you.
Let's not forget that Wired would probably have been perfectly happy to continue this tactic, until the SF Chronicle started researching this article.
It's easy to get into the habit of thinking that the media is toothless, but in many ways, the light of publicity can still bring about change for the best.
They don't have your SSN, which means no matter what they say, they cannot do jack to your credit report.
If you are not sure of this or don't believe, simply go ask for a free copy of your credit report at Experian, Transunion, or whatever the third one was. Just say you're credit was used fraudulently, which they'll put your credit on alert (a good damned thing if you ask me) and send you a free report.
Don't sweat it, they just sound tough but can't do a single thing. If they do have your credit card number or bank number and then charge without your permission, you can get it back, just go to whatever got charged and dispute it.
Really, they can't do a thing, people just give in because it sounds all scary.
Blockbuster once called a collections agency on me for a $8.00 late fee. I have a policy of paying late fees only if/when I actually go back and rent another movie. In reality that's exactly what they want, another trip to the store. However calling a collection agency guaranteed that I'd be getting all my future DVDs from Netflix or PirateBay. I don't feel like I owe late fees, unless I wish to check out another DVD. Probably if I read the fine print, I'd realize Blockbuster views late fees differently. However, Blockbuster is on my shitlist forever none-the-less. They could have made more money from me, if they didn't get greedy.
Sending debt collections companies, or the appearance of them should be the last resort for seriously delinquent customers who are basically trying to steal (or are bankrupt). I'm not sure when it started that collections agencies became the guaranteed repeat business tool.
I don't see what's the big deal. Dealing with collection agencies is very easy. Just write a simple letter giving the "account number" from the agency's dunning letter, and stating that you dispute the debt, that you request proof of the debt, and that you don't want to be contacted by telephone in writing.
Then, pay three bucks to send the letter by certified mail with return receipt. Unless you owe a lot of money, and the collection agency has some real paperwork to prove that, this is the last time you'll hear from them. The certified mail receipt makes sure that you can burn their ass off if they ever try to bother you again for no reason.
Although some might baulk at the three bucks, just keep in mind that it costs the collection agency more than that to send the letter off and process your response (someone has to go in, look up your account number in their system, and mark it off).
If everyone did that, the collection agencies will quickly go out of business.
If you register domain names or purchase other services through GoDaddy.com, you might find yourself in a similar situation. They don't, to my knowledge, sick a collection agency on you, but they do automatically renew stuff without warning.
More specifically, deep in the fine print of GoDaddy's terms of service, they mention that they will assume that you want to auto-renew a service when it expires. However, nowhere else do they mention this. In fact, 90 days, 60 days, and 30 days before the service expires, they will send you e-mails saying "This service is going to expire! Renew now so it won't happen!". Naturally, if you're like me, you would assume that such a message is implying that the service will simply end if you do nothing. Not so! Instead, on the day of expiration, you will get a notice from GoDaddy that they have billed your credit card for renewal, like it or not.
Now, for me, the service in question was not a domain name. I immediately contacted them an asked them to cancel the service and refund me, and they did. However, domain names (their primary business) can NOT be refunded, presumably since ICANN or whoever does not allow this. So, if this happens to you with a domain name, you're screwed.
Interestingly, GoDaddy also provides a feature that lets you "synchronize" your renewals, making all your services expire on the same date. Since you can renew any service at any time anyway (long before expiration), I see no reason for this feature to exist, other than to trick people into letting GoDaddy auto-renew all of their services at once.
Moral: Always explicitly cancel renewable services.
(Side note: Other than the above shady stuff, I find GoDaddy to be a very nice, high-quality service. I don't feel this is reason for a boycott, but you may make your own decision. I certainly would trust GoDaddy over Verisign, but that's not saying much.)
So is this the new business model for the 21st century? "Customers cant quit us, we OWN them"!
Don Corleone would be so proud.
Certainly you are right, however the Nazi at Wired who decided to do this must ahve graduated from the SCO School of Customer Service cum laude.
If you look over the other posts on this board, even you must come to the conclusion that Wired is losing a lot of money and subscribers together with its good will. In fact their level of stupidity on this move is stunning.
In 2001, I had lost my job and finding a new one in NYC in October was, let's say "difficult."
I had a credit card with $4,000 on it, from Citibank. It went default; rent was more important then this debt. I told them I intended to pay the debt but I would have to find work first.
They sent it to a collection agency and let me tell you, this guy was a fucking dipshit. He'd call four times a day, and every time I'd ask "who is this" (because they're only allowed to call once a day, they don't like to identify themselves) and he would not. I'd hang up, he'd call back. Finally after a few calls he would, and I'd say "sorry, he's not here." I started out with them by explaining the situation, but it didn't matter.
Once a bill goes to a collection agency, that's it. The damage has been done - it's on your credit history as a charge-off. The collection agency can not do anything else to ruin your credit. The only thing they can do is bug you until you pay, so that's what most of them do. And they don't mind breaking the law because you can't trace their calls with Caller ID, they don't identify themselves, and when you're broke you can't hire a lawyer. Police won't do a damned thing either. (I called them.)
Finally I did get a job and I sued his ass. He settled and I no longer had to pay the debt. But it was a pain in the ass.
I had another small debt, that went to a lawyers office. They took me to court. But it was better then the collection agency, because I told the judge my situation and he was sympathetic. I paid something like $10 a month until it was paid. Most judges will do the same thing. Once I got some income I paid off the debt in two weeks. This was much more effective then the collection agencies.
So to anyone with a collection agency on your ass - fuck'em. If they refuse to work with you (resonably) on a debt, they're rude, and call more then once a day, don't be afraid. They have NO power. Once you get some cash, call a lawyer.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Unfortunately, not everyone has a card to send in. A friend bought me a year's membership to a Condé Nast-owned Web site, and with it came a free year's subscription to a magazine. She chose Wired, thinking something is better than nothing; she may not have read the fine print.
/., I figure, just to be safe, that I'll write Condé Nast the following and send it every different way I can, and ring their phone numbers until they answer so I can read it to them. I'm no lawyer, so some criticism is more than welcome:
In either case, however, it's my responsibility. To activate my "gift" membership, I had to give Condé Nast my billing information. I wanted the membership, but not the magazine; however, it was too late to do anything but cancel the subscription.
Not expecting trouble, I just shrugged and let the magazine go. My last issue was mailed on the first, and then Slashdot tells me this. While I'm not someone to believe what I read on
"I would like to cancel my subscription to Wired. Please remove all information on me from any lists computer databases that contain my name, address, e-mail address or telephone number, including any that you may distribute outside of Condé Nast publications; DO NOT RENT OR SHARE, NOW OR AT ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE, MY NAME, ADDRESS, E-MAIL ADDRESS, TELEPHONE NUMBER, OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION YOU HAVE RELATED TO MYSELF OR MY DEALINGS WITH CONDÉ NAST PUBLICATIONS. Also, please delete any billing information you have for my account.
If possible, please send me confirmation in print that I have cancelled my subscription. AS OF TODAY, JULY 9, 2005, I DO NOT WISH TO RECEIVE ANY FURTHER ISSUES OF WIRED OR ANY OTHER CONDÉ NAST PUBLICATION; I DO NOT CONSENT TO THE UNSOLICITED MAILING OF ANY FURTHER ISSUES OF WIRED OR ANY OTHER CONDÉ NAST PUBLICATION, IN PRINT OR ELECTRONICALLY; I DO NOT CONSENT TO ANY OTHER FURTHER COMMUNICATION FROM CONDÉ NAST EXCEPT AS OUTLINED ABOVE.
Any further communication from Condé Nast addressed to me after this date (Saturday, July 9, 2005) will be considered unsolicited and offensive, and if received will be forwarded to the United States Postal Service to be reported under the provisions of U.S.C. Title 39, 3008, and I will pursue any and all other legal recourses at my disposal to prevent any further Condé Nast communications from being delivered to me at any address."
He'd call four times a day, and every time I'd ask "who is this" (because they're only allowed to call once a day, they don't like to identify themselves) and he would not. I'd hang up, he'd call back.
I had a credit card from Providian many, many years ago. It was a secured card, I had a deposit and limit of $500. To make a long story short, I did lose my job and could not pay the bill. I called and told them what happened, and told them to take the deposit and use it against my account. But the person on the phone sounded very sympathetic and said they would give me a grace period, and not to close the account. I listened to them.
They lied.
The next bill had a $30 late fee. The one after that had another $30 late fee, and a $30 over the limit fee (caused by the late fee). I called them back and told them to immediatly close my account, but they said my $500 deposit was not large enough to pay off the entire account, and they could not do a partial pay off. They kept charging me late fees and over the limit fees until I owed them $1200 (including the collection fees).
Now this is where it gets real nasty.
Providian started calling my house 8 times a day. Caller Id would always show "unavalable". They threatened me every way they could. Somehow, Providian found my mothers phone number, and called her. The guy told her I was going to get sued unless she paid my debt. I told her not to do anything, I was getting mad.
A few weeks later, my neighbor knocks on my door and says that Providian left a message for me, and that I should call them back.
I called Providian, and told them not to ever call me again. They told me they only respond to written corrispodance.
Providian made my life miserable for over two years. After a while, I would get phone calls and it would be them hanging up. It was all designed to be harrasment.
So I figured to hell with my credit rating, I would rather have 7 horrible years of bad credit than to pay Providian one penny. After a couple years passed, I got a letter from providian approving me for a secured credit card, $1500 to be exact. All Providian wanted was to put my charged off balance on the new credit card.
Here is the deal. If the bank can not collect in the statute of limitations, it gets taken off your credit report. The banks can no longer come after you. To get the debt back, they will try and offer something like credit. They are bastards.
But my question is this. How can you prove to a judge that a bank is calling you non-stop if the caller Id only shows "unavailable" and they don't identify themselevs?
For a while, I was seriously considering getting a gun, walking into Providians main bank, walking to the executive offices, and killing every motherfucker in the room. Them calling nonstop, humiliating me by calling neighbors, threatening my mom, it all was too much for me to take. The only thing that kept me sane was calling them "motherfucker" over the phone.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
Yhey send out letters that look like "You Owe Us Money" and that lead you to belive that you had already re-subscribed and now you needed to pay. Bogus.
Actually, this same thing happened to me. I, somehow, got put on the auto-renew list -- which means that they'll hire a collection agency to get their $12. Absolutely rediculous. Anyway, I've cancelled, Wired has said they'd talk to the collection agency, they haven't. I'm still trying to get them off my back (4 months). I would never subscribe to Wired again.
You should have been told when you rented that there are penalties for returning late. Blockbuster is not being "greedy" by expecting you to conform to contract terms.
If you returned the movie on time, their charge is fraudulent (like Wired's). If you were late, suck it up and pay, or let them tarnish your credit.
You are not legally entitled to screw corporations just because they want to screw you.
There was a long standing precedent in the business that established that late fees for movies that had been returned were not collected until the next rental. This precedent had been in place for years, all over the country. Blockbuster decided to deviate from this practice without calling special attention to it, just so they could get a few more cents here and there in "time value of money". This may not be against the law, but I would call it unethical, or at the least, extremely poor customer service.
They lost my business over this issue too. Yes I know they changed this policy eventually, but I'm still not giving them my business again.
I may not be legally entitled to screw corporations that have poor customer service, but I don't have to patronize them either, and I am certainly within my rights to suggest that others shouldn't patronize them either.
What did the rental agreements say prior to the precedent change? That you owed the money or that you owed it before you could rent again? If it's the former, I don't think they were outside their rights in the least to demand it, and I don't think it was particularly unethical. That was money you owed. Probably they started sending collection agencies after people because those who are willing to let a late fee go on that long are either a) not going to rent from them anymore anyway, and thus they don't risk any loss of customer for it or b) were intentionally not renting because they'd have to pay the additional fee. In the case of a, they've lost a customer already, so why not get what's owed by the terms of the contract? In the case of b, they get what's owed and moreover, since the person now has paid their late fee, they may rent again, thus generating revenue.
/think/ Blockbuster, but it's been a long time) and they sent out their goons. He gladly paid, since he figured the collection agency cost them far more than the dollar they were getting back, and he liked the irony of it.
Two anecdotes:
One friend of mine had a dollar late fee somewhere (I
Another time, he had over $50 in late fees to a store called Hastings. He obviously stopped renting there, since he wasn't about to drop $50+rental fee to rent a movie (he actually just BOUGHT movies for the longest time since it was cheaper--yes yes, overall it wouldn't have been but whatever). After over a year had passed, Hastings sent out a clemency note--come in and bring this coupon, and they'll forgive the late fees. This is clearly the way to go, as it gets people back into the store (always a good thing) and moreover, gets rid of their late fees so they'll start renting again. It also generates a bit of goodwill. This is the same store that will amortize your late fee so that you can continue renting without paying a large fee. Generally when I get a late fee, they offer to let me pay $1 per future rental until it's covered. I never bother, preferring to just pay the whole thing, but it's a good business practice, I think.
PC Gamer does this too, and it happened to me. I subscribed specifically for a few years, with no running renewal agreement. I let it expire, I got a collections letter like this guy. So it's not a "didn't read the agreement" issue. The letter specifically referred to the situation as a "debt," which is untrue. If I ever get up off my ass, I've been planning on referring this to the AG's office, but since they're based in CA, I used to live in CA, and now I live in VA, I'm not sure which one.
If you ignore any request for payment from any company even if its fraudulent you again have only yourself to blame if you do not challenge it.
To an extent, but since claiming that someone owes you money when you know they don't is fraud, you can certainly blame them too. A lot of people might think it's easier to pay $12 than risk their credit.
I called PC Gamer, asked them what the hell this was about and why they're claiming I owe them money when I don't, and they just cancelled my subscription.
Whenever I see the latest issue of [i]Wired,[/i] I always imagine a bunch of clueless 40-something marketing experts-turned-editors, gathering in Wired's editorial office, deperately trying to decide which two-year-old "emerging trend" to parade next (and get completely wrong).
It's like the middle-aged uncle who tries to impress everyone with his eternal youth at the 2005 family reunion by showing off his new iPod.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.