Toshiba HD-DVD Player Planned to Enforce HDMI

CCat writes "Digital Spy reports that at a recent Toshiba road show in the U.S., Toshiba demonstrated their upcoming HD-DVD specification. The most interesting thing for people buying TVs at the moment is that Toshiba has stated that their HD-DVD Player will ONLY output high Def on the player's HDMI output (plus other digital connections) with the analog output downrezed to 480 lines. Prior slashdot disussion talks about the copy prevention angle and HDCP guidelines."

Comments

HDTV!

[groovy.ambuj]

There have been recent surge in HDTV. Recently ATI technologies also annouced cheap HDTV... though wondering why would Toshiba support only high def??

Re:HDTV!

[damsa]

I think you are reading it wrong. Toshiba will only support high def if your TV has also a HDMI plug. Otherwise it will look the same if you use component or other methods of cabling as a progressive scan DVD.

My guess is, is so the movie studios will release stuff on Toshiba's format first because it will be less likely to be pirated. HDMI only means that stuff will be encrypted. Then everyone will buy Toshiba's format then Toshiba can make billions off licensing. Most people won't notice that their HDTV set is not playing at full capacity HD mode using regular plugs so they will continue to buy Toshiba HD-DVD licensed stuff because it's out sooner than blue ray. It's an interesting strategy but probably will not work as Sony also owns a movie studio, thus most movies from Sony, like Spiderman 3 will probably come out on Blu Ray first if HD-DVD at all.

Re:HDTV!

[Firethorn]

Then they're probably doomed to follow in the steps of the DIVX disc format. Not many people are going to pay more for less functionality.

Toshiba is wasting it's money

[Augusto]

If the PS3 hits early 2006, and the XBox comes out sans HD-DVD, you can kiss this stupid format goodbye. There's no great motivation for most consumers to buy these drives yet, so they're a bit early. And their players really can't compete with a gaming machine, so I don't know what their strategy is here.

I'd never by it...

[Nimrangul]

I refuse to buy Toshiba branded products. Their DVD players have this wonderful knack for dying once they're three years old.

Three capacitors on my DVD player are all that stand between me and a working DVD player - but they'd be charging for it instead of fixing what is obviously them using shit to make it.

So I just refuse to give them another cent.

Re:I'd never by it...

[Nimrangul]

Evidence?

Physical no, but definately what the Toshiba repairman on the phone said.

When my audio and frontal display both stopped working at the same time when it was around 4 years of age I phoned a local certified Toshiba shop, which were pleased to tell me my problem was a common one with DVD players. They said that they would have to have it brought in before they would be willing to tell me how much it would cost and that just looking at it would cost 25 dollars.

I thought to myself, if it's a common problem, then there must be people on the Internet who have had the same issue.

So I googled around and found quite a bit about it, mostly information supplied by Toshiba repairmen that are nice guys. The sites for the most part detailed how a fair number, though the SD-1700 especially, have this trouble and how a set of capacitors on the motherboard being replaced would fix the problem.

That my DVD player lasted longer than most doesn't really comfort me. I don't replace my TV every 4 years, it's gotta be going on 8 and my VCR is still going strong at almost 14 years old, so I really don't feel pleased in needing to repair something like this this soon in the player's lifespan.

I don't care if Toshiba made shoddy capacitors or bought them, they're the screw-ups asking me to pay for it.

Re:I'd never by it...

[Pollardito]

I don't replace my TV every 4 years, it's gotta be going on 8 and my VCR is still going strong at almost 14 years old, so I really don't feel pleased in needing to repair something like this this soon in the player's lifespan.

4 years is a joke for consumer electronics, so i'd be skeptical too. i had a 19" TV that kicked out a year or two ago that was about 14 years old at the time, and another that was passed down to me from a relative and must be even older than that (though i can't vouch for how much use it got). all my parents' TVs have had similar lifespans, as a matter of fact they decommissioned one a few years ago that was so old that [cordless] remote controls were uncommon when they bought it. i still have the VCR that i bought 10 years ago (which only was bought as a replacement because the first one was stolen), and when my brother gets bored he can fire up my old NES from more than 15 years ago or my N64 from 8 years ago. i'm not listing all this because i think our experiences are anything atypical, i'm listing them because i think we've seen the same longer lifespan across a breadth of electronics.

i wonder what the typical lifespan of a computer is, setting aside the fact that most people dispose of them faster just because they're outdated. if they do die faster than other electronics, i wonder which is the part that dies fastest on average (my guess would be hard drive?)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Wow

[UserChrisCanter4]

So Toshiba's HD-DVD player will not display HD video on the millions of Toshiba HDTVs that were produced before DVI and HDMI were common? Awesome!

The funniest part is that no one would want to bootleg over the component connections anyway. I don't know of a signle component capture card that's priced remotely near what a normal consumer could afford. The big piracy houses will find a quick workaround anyway. But they'll stave off all four casual pirates with access to professional capture devices, at least until the HD-DVD encryption is cracked.

We're all used to ludicrous DRM systems, but I've never seen an electronics company (without a major stake in the film/music production business) so willing to shoot themselves in the foot.

Re:Wow

[Intellectual Elitist]

> So Toshiba's HD-DVD player will not display HD video on the millions of Toshiba HDTVs that were produced before DVI and HDMI were common?

Yeah, no kidding. I bought a Toshiba HDTV in late 2001, and it only has component video inputs for HD content. Instead of rewarding me for paying a premium to be an early adopter, I'm being punished because of the assumption that I'm going to pirate movies. Very classy.

Re:Wow

[timeOday]

...at least until the HD-DVD encryption is cracked.

Anybody care to bet how long breaking HD CSS will take?

I know the conventional slashdot wisdom is "no time at all" but I'm not so sure. There was a long, annoying period of several years during which linux could not play DVDs. The manufacturers have a lot of money at stake (well, at least the content producers do) and I wouldn't be surprised if they finall get it right.

Re:Wow

[afidel]

Yes, in fact the HDCP spec specifically bars the decryption of protected content on general purpose PC's. That means no more media center XP, no more homebrew PVR's, no more doing as you wish with your purchased content. And of course once the encryption is cracked the easiest way to enjoy your purchase will be to break the law (DMCA) and strip all the "protection" nonesense and so with it as you damn well please.

Re:Wow

[assassinator42]

It might take a while. DVD audio was just recently cracked, right? And it's more of a workaround. Windows Media DRM/5c/other types of DRM haven't been cracked. These people who think it will be cracked in no time at all are in for a letdown.

Re:Wow

[Kjella]

Anybody care to bet how long breaking HD CSS will take?

As in "find one private key, crack all content made up until this point"? Not too long.

As in a permanent crack like DeCSS, which was fundamentally broken when the algorithm came out? Never.

It is much more a hardware job than a software job this time around. Find the private key locked down in your DVD player (which is set to self-destruct if you try).

It is more a question if anyone is willing to do that NOW. The smart way would be to let the standard be established, movies to be released on the medium so that when it happens, the movie companies can't just jump ship.

We already have a format that is acceptable size and quality for pirates. The real killer piracy application of HDTV players is not pirating HD-DVDs, it is playing DVD-source pirate copies. Downloading HD-DVD images (15-25GB) is a problem of the future, not today.

Kjella

Re:Wow

[tirefire]

Thank you, apples to oranges comparison. DVD Video is a huge, mainstream thing, while DVD Audio is a tiny, stupid thing. Crackers are bound to spend more time working on getting a movie than content which is already available on non-copy-protected discs (CDs).

"It's Filet Mingon, but ONLY on our grill!"

[Nova Express]

"If you try to grill steaks on any grill other than our own, it instantly turns into hamburger!"

"And I would buy this why?"

"Well, since I'm in marketing, I'm assuming it's because people are stupid!"

"Well, if I were surrounded by that much stupidity, I'd think people were stupid too."

HDCP requried by DVD spec

[rstewart]

HDCP is currently required by the DVD licensing group for all players that output at greater than 480p resolutions.

If you take a look at all the major dvd players out there that have scalers built into them you'll find that currently the only way to go above 480p on them is to use a dvi or hdmi output with hdcp. This is not new and Toshiba is not doing anything different. The problem is truly the standards bodies bowing to pressure from the MPAA and Hollywood to not allow unencrypted signals in high def off of players.

The old argument remains that Hollywood says they will not release movies in that format unless they can't be protected from copying and thus the technology giants bow to them in order to sell their product. I am still awaiting a technology giant to dare Hollywood to not support a format and thus lose the sales that way. Of course with companies like Sony running their own music and movie divisions that probably will not happen any time soon.

Re:HDCP requried by DVD spec

[John Seminal]

you'll find that currently the only way to go above 480p on them is to use a dvi or hdmi

DVI is not encrypted, is it?

This reminds me of the macroflash that some DVD players have. If you try and copy a DVD to a VHS tape, it will phase in and out of the picture in all sorts of colors. Did people think that a 480p picture needs to be protected from being copied on a format that is half the resolution and interlaced?

I am still awaiting a technology giant to dare Hollywood to not support a format and thus lose the sales that way. Of course with companies like Sony running their own music and movie divisions that probably will not happen any time soon.

The problem is not with copying a DVD. Studios don't lose money because someone copies a DVD and trades it. Studios loose money when you already have the $29.99 blockbuster hit on DVD, and two years later they re-release the same movie on DVD and clean it up a bit. Who wants to buy the same shit twice? It pisses people off, and that is when they start thinking about copying a DVD. No, they don't copy the ultra edition, because that is the one they want to buy and have as a part of their DVD collection. They copy the crappy first release. Now I have known some DVD collectors with 700+ DVD's to copy a DVD, and then see the DVD was done right, and buy the first version. People don't want to buy shit.

Studios do not respect people. If Studios respected me as a person, they would not waste my time. Not in theaters with 20 minutes of commercials and $5 popcorns. Not with DVD's that disable the menu and fast forward buttons. Not with DVD's that get re-released three times.

I already had a preview of what's to come

[netringer]

We have a Motorola HD cable DVR connected to a Sony HD TV using a DVI (DVR) to HDMI (TV) cable that doesn't pass the DRM signal. The only digital input the TV has is the HDMI input. The digital signal is visibly cleaner and sharper at 1080i than using Component video cables, but there are rare glitches. Occasionally the picture will get out of sync and you see two torn noisy SD images on the screen. You can fix that by simply changing channels and coming back. That gets the 1s and 0s in sync again.

Outside of that the DVR/TV connect is wont to have other head glitches once in while. During one of those the TV displayed a blue box over 2/3 of the screen with the message along the lines of "DEVICE NOT AUTHORIZED for digital connection. Please switch to analog inputs." Power cycles all around cleared that nonsense.

This what we have to look forward to - TVs that will decide if your other devices are authorized to be seen. Support the EFF to stop this madness...or vote with your wallet. Are you ready to pass on watching movies or other HQ content when the day comes soon that all devices work like this?

Simple;

[Progman3K]

Just don't buy it.

The market will teach them to stop doing that.

People will buy this crap...

[John Seminal]

And we will be stuck with DVD's that will only play in ways the manufacturors want. I wonder if one day there will be a small microchip on the DVD itself, in the center, which will be programmed the first time it is played, so it will only play on one DVD player, like what DVD's did with region locks on computers, after 3 changes it is locked.

But what does it matter anyways? Will there EVER be something that will take full use of the resolution? For example, take the cleanest looking 720p ESPN baseball game, how much higher can the resolution get? There must be some relationship between screen size and the perceptible difference. For example, can people see more detail on a 42" screen if one is 480p and the other is 720p? Maybe on a 120" projection screen it becomes noticable, but how much?

Truth be told, I would be more happy with the current 480p that DVD can play now if the studios treated customers better. No more re-releasing a DVD 3 times, with the first release being shitty and a buy it for $29 or have nothing attitude. Then 18 month later is the re-release "ultimate edition" which cleans the picture up. Coulnd't the studio release a clean picture the first time? And do away with fraud, for example the season 2 boxed set of Magnum PI has a bonus episode of the A-Team, and this episode looks fantastic, very clean. But if you get the boxed set of the A-Team, the other episodes don't look like they have as much resolution. Did the studio spend all their time making the one "free" episode look as good as possible, and neglected the rest because the studio knew the free one was going to sell the set?

And while we are at it, NO MORE FUKING "COPYWRITE" WARNINGS THAT CAN NOT BE FAST FORWARDED AND NO DISABLING OF THE MENU BUTTON DURING PREVIEWS!!! I fucking hate studios that lock me into 5 minutes of copywrite warnings, previews and the studio logo.

And here is a shocking idea. If the studio made a product the way people wanted it, then maybe there would be less copying. If a $30 dvd was not released 3 times, maybe the first version would not be copied like crazy because nobody wants to get fucked with a crippled version.

And I have a long memory. I have a bunch of music CD's with rot. I have one DVD that pixalates, and it did not do that in the past. None of my VHS tapes lock up or pixilate, they keep playing.

I almost wish the S-VHS caught on with near dvd quality. It would be hard to control an analog source. But that is why studios lie and tell us things like DVD's last forever, when in truth they get rot, or lies like no anaolg source could have the same resolution, which it could.

Re:Format war

[FLEB]

Box-in-the-middle?

I'm willing to bet that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD

[multiplexo]

are going to go the way of DVD-Audio and SACD. Despite the fact that Sony has made almost every one of their DVD players capable of playing SACD and the large number of DVD-Audio players available most artists and labels are shunning these formats. One reason, despite their higher quality, has to be the onerous copy protection attached to each format, including such idiocy as disabling digital bass management at the player level thus requiring users to run six analog connections between their SACD/DVD players and their home theater receivers. Most consumers looked at this and said "fuck this higher quality multi-channel noise". And now labels are releasing their titles on the increasingly popular DualDisc format, which combines a standard CD with a DVD with Dolby 5.1 sound. Thus allowing you to play this in your car or on a home theater system and which doesn't require running a bunch of extra cables and purchasing an analog bass management system for those receivers that don't have analog bass management capabilities.

What does HD-DVD offer the average user? Most people like DVDs not only because they have better image quality than VHS, even if you connect to your TV with an RF cable or RCA composite jack and also because they're smaller than VHS tapes, more durable and easier to fast forward and frame by frame. Exactly what does HD-DVD add to this? Well, you get more data storage, so if you wanted to have a bunch of movies on one disc you could, but I don't think Hollywood is going to go for that. Or you can have super duper high definition movies, which most users don't have the equipment to take advantage of anyways. Cripple it with idiot DRM schemes and you make it even less attractive.

Re:I'm willing to bet that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD

[Shawn Parr]

One reason, despite their higher quality, has to be the onerous copy protection attached to each format, including such idiocy as disabling digital bass management at the player level thus requiring users to run six analog connections between their SACD/DVD players and their home theater receivers.

Er, both of these formats use a resolution that current digital interconnects are not capable of. They decided that instead of creating a new digital standard, or messing up an existing one so that some things would work together but some won't, to go the good old "everyone can handle analog" route.

Seriously, neither SPDIF (coax) or TOSLINK (optical) has the bandwidth for multichannel 96k audio, or 192k audio, both of which are supported with DVD-Audio.

In much the same vein SACD uses a bitstream rather than decimating the stream from the converters into set word lengths. This is conceptually why it sounds better, because you are skipping the decimation stage in the A/D convertor, and also not having to reconstruct the digital words back into a bitstream for the D/A convertor.

SACD's bitstream is at a bit over 2Mhz, which is above the bandwidth that standard SPDIF/TOSLINK circuitry is capable of.

Yes, all this DRM stuff really annoys me too. However this is the one case where connections were done in a way to try to make it more universal rather than create more industry confusion.

Imagine buying an SACD player with SPDIF that only worked with Sony Receivers made since 2001? People would be annoyed, just like they are about HDMI, etc.

Re:No Toshiba standard for me then.

[badasscat]

I'm being punished for being an early adopter; my HDTV has composit input only.

If somebody sold you an HDTV with nothing but a composite input, then I've got a bridge on the East River you might be interested in too.

Re:The issues are there, but nobody's attentive.

[Freaky Spook]

I have seen plenty of Authors & reporters trying to publish these issues in mainstream news, but unfortunatley not many people pay attention because our basic rights & privilages arn't that important when Terrorism is much more glossy and sells a lot better.

When this war on Terror eventually gets old, people are going wonder what happened to all their basic civil liberty's, why mega corporations dictiate what they do, why health & education aren't working etc etc.

Re:Format war

[Temsi]

Are you kidding?
I don't even have one, and I have an HDTV!

I have a CRT Philips set, which uses component input.
So, basically, Toshiba expects me to buy a third piece of hardware (a video processor) in order to use their product? Dream on.
This should dramatically hurt their sales. This hyperparanoia with regard to copy protection has gotten out of hand.

You misunderstand consumers

[SuperKendall]

Yes, consumers will take a certain amount of working over.

But this is TV. When the TV starts screwing up, the other folk in the household get pissed off. They start to ask "why did you buy this piece of crap"? And then it gets returned.

It's easy to screw around with peoples freedoms where they do not notice. But when you start causing issues with peoples entertainment, they take notice and put a stop to it right quick.

If consumers are so easily duped, how come DVD-A didn't take off? Or perhaps DAT? When formats are not free in all ways a consumer cares about then people will not buy them.

Re:You misunderstand consumers

[ShieldW0lf]

Yeah, right. Just like when the original DVD came out. Copy protection, advertising enforcement and thinly-veiled illegal price fixing in one neat package, and they eat it up like hotcakes.

Typical consumers have no imagination and accept what they are told. If you complain, you're met with either the same resigned agreement you get when you complain about the weather, or the "company line" about how it's all good and necessary and looked at as an idiot or a communist.

It's damn near impossible to underestimate the stupidity of the masses.

Re:You misunderstand consumers

[Zorilla]

Yes, consumers will take a certain amount of working over.

But this is TV. When the TV starts screwing up, the other folk in the household get pissed off. They start to ask "why did you buy this piece of crap"? And then it gets returned.

If this were entirely true, digital cable/satellite TV would not be the heaping piece of crap that it is today and you might actually get picture quality comparable to analog and not wait 2 seconds just to change the channel.

As for HD, I have yet to see a stream, by means of over-the-air or terrestrial cable, that didn't have the bitrate squeezed so hard that artifacts were everywhere and anything beyong 480p was pointless.

Re:You misunderstand consumers

[zambuka]

Aaah. but the thing about DVD's is that you buy the player and plug it into the same tv as your vcr and away you go. You stick a dvd in and dribble mindlessly on the couch as you watch the pretty light show.

What the consumer won't tolerate is being told that "no.. sorry.. you need to buy this $5,000 tv to watch this new format properly, and it costs an extra $2,000 for the surround sound system. Oh and it has to be brand X".

Those that will likely be interested in this have already invested quite a lot of money in a good tv and suround stereo system for their home theatre. It is unlikely the masses will tolerate being told their 2 year old systems won't play the new tech properly.

But.. like you said, you can never underestimate the stupidity of the masses. Good marketing has a depressing habit of overiding what little common sense the masses have these days.

For a real indicator of where home media is going just take a look at the porn industry. They were the first to really embrace the vcr, among the first to seriously distribute via dvd, and the first form of media to really make use of the internet. Whatever way the porn industry goes with high definition dvds is likely the way the consumer will go.
Imagine all that high resolution nookie, ultra detailed close ups and a system that totally surrounds you with the high definition sounds of heavy panting.

Re:You misunderstand consumers

[walt-sjc]

I take it you don't have kids. Backup backup backup. DVD's are quite prone to scratches and breaking in half. You attempt to always keep them out of reach, but kids can climb bookcases, or stack their little tikes chair on top of their little tikes table. The widescreen disc of Nemo is lost forever...

Can't even "backup" to video tape due to Macrovision without resorting to DMCA violations.

Furthermore, I hate messing with DVD's and the crappy cases that require the disc to flex nearly in half before giving up their death-grip. I really want them all online "tivo" like on my 2T drive array. (Whether I use Windows or Linux is irrelevant - CSS and the DMCA prevent either OS from doing this.)

You don't understand the problem because you are not thinking like an audiophile / videophile, savvy consumer, or even the simple parent..

Re:You misunderstand consumers

[HTH NE1]

Whatever way the porn industry goes with high definition dvds is likely the way the consumer will go.

I think the porn industry will have no problem going both ways, and a few others besides.

Recipe: How to kill a technology before it starts

[jaysedai]

Step 1 - Create format war...
Step 2 - Include outdated interactive capabilties...
Step 3 - Add overbearing copyprotection...
Step 4 - Lose tons of money!

Read my essay on the subject here:
http://www.fireflymovie.com/HighlyInteractiveHD_DV D.html

Well, I can strike Toshiba off my list of hardware

[Rombladi]

Or someone will come up with a spiffy little adapter sooner than anyone expects.

Re:"Secure Digital Outputs"?

[eobiont]

Firewire is secured by 5C style encryption. Free to Copy, Copy Once, or Copy Never. Singnal other than Free to Copy are not passed out firewire if there is any device on the firewire chain that is non-5C compliant.

Boooogus.

Pretty crazy, really

[Anonymous Coward]

*Everybody* got shoddy capacitors for a few years around 2001. Virtually every manufacturer of electronics was hit.

The scale of the problem was far too enormous for most companies to do anything out of warranty. If your player was four years old, and therefore out of warranty, there's nothing they can do about it. If they did, they'd be screwing their stockholders out of a misplaced sense of social justice.

Your product lasted as long as it was guaranteed to last. Now you know that when you buy a product, the warranty period is all you should expect, because that's all you've paid for in their eyes.

Maybe that will change how much you're willing to spend on things, but it's not manufacturer specific. They all responded the same way. Products with a one year warranty were generally fixed out of warranty, products with a three year warranty were not.

Re: DVDs getting multiple releases

[xswl0931]

I don't quite get why people get upset about DVDs getting released multiple times. When you bought the DVD initially, were you happy with it? If not, why did you buy it? Did you feel like you must have the latest greatest? When the manufacturer of your car releases an updated version, do you equally get upset?

Re:Uh, composite video is limited to 140 lines

[Cowclops]

If 720p is 720 lines... then composite video is 525 lines (in NTSC countries anyway.) Not sure where you got "140 lines (120 practical)" from because you can definitely get >400 HORIZONTAL lines from a laserdisc and laserdiscs are recorded in composite video. Even VHS tapes can handle about 240 lines. All NTSC composite connections are 525 lines vertically, with about 486 and a half of them actually being visible on screen and the rest is just the vblank period.

Re:No Toshiba standard for me then.

[Cybercifrado]

Sorry bud, but composite in isn't HDTV. Quick rundown: HDTV is a 16:9 standard (4:3 TVs aren't truly HDTV) that runs at higher than 480p - i.e. 540p, 720p, 1080i or 1080p. If your TV is only capable of 480i and 480p then you only have an EDTV, and were misinformed.
As far as composite goes; the max it carries is 480p, and that's rare. It usually only carries 480i signal. If you want HDTV, you'll need component (Y, Pb, Pr + R&L audio) connectors. Component easily carries the 1080i standard. If you have any other questions, feel free to email me at cybercifrado[atsymbolhere]gmail[dot]com.

Re:Format war

[timecop]

DTCP/5C has been around since 1998. One of the things they have us content protection over 1394. DTCP/5C protection supports renewability, copy control information, and content encryption. All the HDTV equipment with 1394 (DVHS vcr, monitors with 1394 input) are required to implement DTCP for copy control/encryption.

This system has not been broken as of today (2005), and the possibilities that a "box in the middle" attack can even be applied to this protection scheme are unlikely, because of how key exchange is implemented and because compromised hardware can be blacklisted easily.

I gotta get one!

[Thunderstruck]

Now lets see... To get this thing feeding to my 1987 Black and White television, how many adaptors will I need? It's not cable ready, just has the two little screws in the back where I hook up the rabbit ears...

Anyone know how I can hook this new box up without disconnecting my Atari 2600?

Re:The issues are there, but nobody's attentive.

[Internet_Communist]

You're kidding me right? You think the same people dumb enough to be led around by the media would be smart enough to figure that it's the DRM stopping their tv from being able to play their new hd-dvd?

No, they'll just spend their next pay check on a new tv that's no better then their current one except for oh say, the copy-protected video input port. That is, if they hadn't already been persuaded by the manipulative best buy employee to buy a new tv before hand anyway.

You are over-estimating the average intelligence of most people in hope that they'll realize what DRM is (among the other stupid things going on around them) and take a stand. I lost that hope a long time ago.

Re:Format war

[raventh1]

You make great points. There is still at least one point left to be made: None of those products had market saturation, and general people didn't really care about trying to crack it. If this becomes the defacto standard, you will see what happened to DVD (Yes, CSS is a broken scheme. What makes you think DTCP isn't as broken?)

Divx

[maxoct97]

Anyone remember Divx? Hollywood thought they were so great that now they were "protected," but they neglected to remember that people actually need to BUY their product. The crappy invention eventually failed because nobody bought it.

I hope that this Toshiba player goes the way of Divx and is shown the door out.

HDMI != HDCP

[ncc74656]

You're confusing HDMI with HDCP. HDMI is just DVI-D combined with audio. HDCP is a "copy-prevention" scheme that can be applied to either HDMI or DVI-D (or the digital part of DVI-I). If your monitor has a DVI-I or DVI-D input, you can get a dongle that will adapt HDMI to DVI. (Dongles are also available going the other way, to plug a device with DVI output into a monitor with an HDMI input.)

What is possible is that the player will only talk to a monitor that supports HDCP. TFA says nothing one way or the other about this, but it'd be something to bitch about if this is the case. Given the existence of large numbers of monitors with DVI and/or HDMI inputs that don't support HDCP (this is especially true for DVI), a DVD player that will only talk to the handful of monitors that support HDCP should be considered broken. Unfortunately, you can't determine from TFA if this is the case.

Re:HDMI != HDCP

[WARM3CH]

Data protection is obligatory in HDMI protocol. Look at this phrase from part 9.1 of the HDMI 1.1 spec:

Content protection capability is recommended for all HDMI compliant devices. An HDMI compliant Source should protect all of the protected audiovisual data. Amongst adequate copy protection technologies that are compatible with HDMI, HDCP is available.

(you can get a copy of the latest specs from http://www.hdmi.org/)

Re:HDMI != HDCP

[jimicus]

OK, I've not read the spec, but you've contradicted yourself there.

"Data protection is obligatory"

But the paragraph you quote:

"Content protection capability is recommended..... An HDMI compliant Source should protect all of the protected audiovisual data."

Doesn't sound like "obligatory" to me.

Re:HDMI != HDCP

[Spoing]

"Content protection capability is recommended..... An HDMI compliant Source should protect all of the protected audiovisual data."

Doesn't sound like "obligatory" to me.

Ever worked on a contract where the requirements are spelled out? I'm betting you haven't.

The word "should" is implied everywhere. The word "should" means "will do this or will violate the contract" not "may if you want".

As for "recommended", it means what it says, yet "should" takes it away since if you don't follow the recommendation, you've broken the relationship and liked snubbed kids they will take the ball and go home. If you want to play, you have to follow the rules of the ball owner in this case.

Re:HDMI != HDCP

[LazyBoy]

Ever worked on a contract where the requirements are spelled out? I'm betting you haven't.

The word "should" is implied everywhere. The word "should" means "will do this or will violate the contract" not "may if you want".

Previous posters were talking about a standards document, not a contract. Most standards documents define exactly what "should" means or point to a document that does.

I haven't read this standard, but I'd be stunned if you were right.

Re:HDMI != HDCP

[Edgewize]

In any standards doc I've ever seen,

MAY = optional
MAY NOT = optional
SHOULD = strongly recommended
SHOULD NOT = advised against
MUST = required
MUST NOT = not permitted
SHALL = must
SHALL NOT = must not

Re: DVDs getting multiple releases

[evilviper]

When the manufacturer of your car releases an updated version, do you equally get upset?

If I found out my car company had brakes that could stop my car 10Xs faster, or an engine that could get 4X the fuel-mileage, that doesn't cost any more than the crap they gave me, I'd be very angry.

Similarly, people who buy DVDs, expect that there isn't going to be a better one comming along soon. They expect that if there's any extra content available (deleted scenes, interviews, etc) it will be included on the DVD they bought. Finding out that you were sold crap, and the studio intentionally held-back content they had available and could have given you, tends to piss someone off.

Movies are not like cars. You can't go to a different manufacturer and get what the first one was holding back from you for their next model.

Look to England

[SuperKendall]

Yeah, right. Just like when the original DVD came out. Copy protection, advertising enforcement and thinly-veiled illegal price fixing in one neat package, and they eat it up like hotcakes.

Yes, in the US where we get first-run DVD's. There were very few in the general populace who ever ran into (or probably even knew) about region restrictions.

Now hop across the pond. Suddenly, you are waiting months for a DVD that is already released in the US. Suddenly, you are paying a hell of a lot more for movies.

So what happened? While I'm sketchy on the exact progression of events, I do know they started off selling region-locked DVD players but somehow people got word there were unlockable players, and sales of those took off. Now I think you can go into any store in Endland and most of the players are region free by default (someone please correct me if you still need to unlock them).

As I said, consumers stopp accepting things when they have something placed between them and thier entertainment. And when consumers start buying, suddenly business practices get a lot more flexible.

Re:Look to England

[jimicus]

Now I think you can go into any store in Endland and most of the players are region free by default (someone please correct me if you still need to unlock them).

I'll assume you mean England.

Depends where you shop. Ironically, cheap Chinese players in supermarkets are more likely to ship unlocked than expensive ones in electronics stores like Dixons (though most generally say "Region 2" on the box). OTOH, Richer Sounds (cheap hifi warehouse) regularly advertise players as "region free". Sometimes they get in a job lot of a particular model, unlock the region on some of them and sell them at a £20 premium over the "region locked" version.

And if that didn't put the final nail in the coffin of DVD region coding, Amazon UK even put instructions on their website for "how to unlock your DVD player".

Only Takes One :)

[saikou]

And some small or no-name brand from China, that does not bother with all "checks and balances" (gasp!) suddenly enjoys quadruple sales.
Of course the funniest thing will be that same factory produces "big name" playes during morning shift :) Philips players in retaliation will have well-known code (flap the door of the player three times, tap on the side panel and say "please let me watch in digital format" three times) that will turn off protection.
Easy :)

I beg to differ

[Dion]

How about the many crypto analysts who claim to have broken HDCP?

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/11/20/025120 6&mode=nested&threshold=3

Re:Format war

[ColaMan]

You can get one now (from cNet, via boingboing:
DRM removal widget

[...I]t uses the HDCP chips ususally built into high definition displays, so that HDCP "protected" signal sources uncomplainingly deliver their signal to the boxes. They then convert them to RGBHV or unprotected DVI signals.

Buy a crate of them now! Ebay, here we come!

Re:Format war

[Jarnis]

You really think that HDTV sets cost megabucks simply because they had a high definition display element?

All that DRM crap COSTS MONEY. Based on the price of that box, I'd say each crippled HDTV display that uses DRM adds easily 50 euros or more to the wholesale price of the product due to the DRM crap.

You and me, paying so that our ability to view content is restricted...

And that 399e is 399e because those widgets are probably illegal circumvention devices in some parts of the world, and the components inside probably come with a big price premium, as their (masked) manufacturer is taking a risk with them.

Re:But I thought....

[netringer]

I thought a HDMI input would accept unencrypted DVI as well.

As I understand it, it does. It's working that way for me. In my case I think the cable is not passing the DRM stuff from the source to the TV, because the source is, indeed, DVI. The TV is usually happy with the signal.

The other lines missing in the cable are the audio lines, which as far as I'm concerned are a silly idea. You'll send audio to the audio surround system, not the tinny speakers on the monitor, if it even has those.