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Freelance Programming Sites?
CarrotLord asks: "I have some small, fairly well-defined programming projects that I need done, but I don't have time to do them myself. So, I've been looking into sites like Get a Freelancer and ScriptLance. Does anybody have any experience of these types of sites? Specifically, I'd like to hear your recommendations and advice, as well as your experiences. My concerns include: getting very poor quality work; communication and language barriers and also losing control over the work that I've paid for -- if I'm paying for some work, I want it licensed on my own terms."
Unless this "coder" resides in the same juris-dick-tion as you do, he ain't going to be reined in to observing your conditions upon completion and delivery.
Stick to the locals, at least you have more business rights that way.
I've used RentACoder in the past. Only small stuff, but it was dirt cheap to have some guy out in Colorado implement some fixes for an amount comprable to the time I burned defining the scope of the job and communicating with him.
Didn't have any problems, so I can't speak to their dispute resolution system. Got what I paid for first time around, perfectly smooth, etc.
Hi, Chris!
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
To prevent someone taking your work, have someone build the common libraries first, and then have someone else use that compiled library (obscurificated and with expiration date built in). You could also let them compile the code on your server and use remote desktop so you can see them working with the code, and then block the ports to make it harder for them to remove information from the computer. Good Luck...
I've done some work for people through sitepoint. Basically, it involves a lot of trust on both parties, which in a lot of cases, will leave somebody screwed. I've almost always done the work in advance and trusted that the party involved would pay me when the work was completed. So far this has worked out well for me, but in time, I'm sure I'll get burned. Generally speaking, searching the history of that user in the forums will give me some idea of my likelihood of getting paid. For larger jobs, there are a variety of escrow services out there.
I recommend looking for programmers at Elance. The programmers that subscribe to Elance are typically of better quality.
/shouldn't/ be looking for a bargain. You may already know, but you're going to get what you're paying for. Just a heads-up.
One thing to keep in mind is that you
"It was hell!" recalls former child.
I hired someone on scriptlance a year or so ago to improve a web based game I had written. Was a nightmare. First the guy did a horrible job, then he demanded more money to do it correctly, after I gave in and paid him more to fix it he ended up selling/giving away the code which completely ruined the market for my sites. ...
Never agian
I forgot to mention in my last comment... post an ad on craigslist. It's a great place to find programmers for a project, in my experience.
"It was hell!" recalls former child.
Rentacoder has pretty good environment for negotiating such projects - bidders have a chance to ask you questions, you can specify the ballpark of what you're willing to pay, and then you can exactly outline your requirements.
The only drawback of the site was a whole bunch of bids from places like Romania and India, which did not even bother to read the project description (e.g. project required a specific PHP module, and the letter said "If you're looking for a great ASP/ASP.NET team, you've found one!")
But those are easy to ignore.
Programming is a technical skill. You're asking for a product here. Don't go to a programmer asking for a product cause you ain't gonna get it. You're gonna get a technical solution. Something like a huge mass of C files and maybe a Makefile. Wow, look at that red-black tree he used. What you need is a freelance project manager who can manage the product you want and the technical people who can provide that product.
You are already on the right track if the projects are "well defined." I have had several experiences on eLance and the best results happen when you know exactly what you want. I mean, exactly. If you need something in ATL or MFC with specific dependencies (or lack of them), say so. The more specific the better.
Also specify how the project will be tested before being delivered to you. The end of the project can be the most frustrating. I have decided it's often easier to take ownership of the whole thing and do the little items (spelling and grammar in the UI) rather than trying to pass it back to them.
Finally, think about IP issues. If you think the project (or your whole company) will ever be bought by any large company, they will ask questions about where the code came from in due diligence. Get some assurances that the code they created "for you" is not yanked from some open source project.
I use rentacoder.com. The "buyer" gets all rights to the software that the "coder" developed, since the work is work-for-hire.
They have a safe escrow system in place for the projects, and their arbitration system is good (I actually had to use it once when a coder didn't do the work I paid for). I got my money back, and all was well.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
The way it usually works is:
1) I bid the cost of doing well written, documented, and supported code in a reasonable amount of time.
2) Watch as Indian companies bid ridiculously low development costs, and time using exceptionally poor English (even by
3) Watch as a "ebay clone" goes to the shop bidding 2 days and $200.
4) Wait a month.
5) See the poster of the original project looking for some one else.
Honestly your best bet would just watch the comments for people like me. I'm in Eastern Canada so I can do things cheaper than someone in Cali, or NY without cutting corners. My email addy is intierlogic at gmail.com
It all depends on how big the projects are. If you want something between notepad and say wordpad then you shouldn't have a problem. If you want something like more complicated (a project that will take more than a month) then it is fairly complicated and it will be easier if you are in the same room.
My Dad sells stuff on line and a few of his products are things that people have asked for that only cost $200 from a freelancer then he has sold about 20 copies and made the money back.
That being said his main product took about 6 months to make and other people keep on asking for resale rights (he does commission). He says no and they chuck a fit saying we'll just get a freelancer to make it and wipe you off the market. They get freelancers and say copy this. They always fail because 80% of the product is the little things that are done automatically to make it nice and easy to use.
Now there are also a couple of things to watch out for:
* Lots of freelancers don't care about copyright. They use other projects in your and your in other projects.
* Start of with a small contact and if your happy then get the same person to do the bigger one.
* Freelancers come and go. They might not be interested next time.
* Use an escrow service the first few times. It good for them and for you.
Why use some big, impersonal job aggregator, never even meeting the programmer in person, when you could just go down to a coffee shop and meet with a friend-of-a-friend? Keep the money local, and help build "the network." The network is how those who know what they are doing leverage the abilities of other skilled people. Massive aggregator sites break down the network and overly corporatize it, leading to impersonal interactions and lack of accountability.
"I have some small, fairly well-defined
;-)
;-)
programming projects that I need done,
but I don't have time to do them myself."
So, what is scratching your itch worth?
"So, I've been looking into sites like
Get a Freelancer and
ScriptLance.
Does anybody have any experience of these
types of sites?"
We've had a look at GetAFreeLancer.com &
got the impression, from prices observed,
that much of the work might go to places
like India.
"Specifically, I'd like to hear your rec's
and advice, as well as your experiences."
We weren't prepared to go so low...
"My concerns include:
getting very poor quality work;"
Be ready to pay more, maybe to some-
one in your nearby city or town
"communication and language barriers"
"and also losing control over the work
that I've paid for"
Not to worry, you won't pay until
you &/or your project's moderator
agree that your spec's were met -
so, focus on getting your spec's
right...
I WONDER IF THERE ARE ANY PROGRAM-
MERS PREPARE TO "COMPETE" EG ON A
FIRST TO MEET SPEC'S W-I-N BASIS?
"if I'm paying for some work, I want
it licensed on my own terms."
Why should what you want matter?
The question is how much are you
prepared to pay for what you want?
If you're dipping into marketplaces
like these, were trhe world can bid,
you still have to pay for anything
you want that's above & beyond the
basic software that meets spec's
ANY CONTRACTOR WILL WANT MORE IF YOUR
LICENSE CONDITIONS IMPLIES LOSS OF THE
RIGHT TO RE-USE HIS/HER OWN CODE.
PAY MORE... GET MORE... SIMPLE, EH?
I'm sure there's a temp agency in your area, why not call them up and see what they've got? That way you can have somebody come in and work on your equipment, etc, and maintain the control you seem so concerned about.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Like some others have said, it seems like a great idea, being able to do coding from home and getting paid for it. Unforunately though in my experience most of the jobs get taken by people in India for ridiculously low prices. I don't know if the buyers get poor work for this price, or if the standard of living is just so much lower in some of these places.
Regardless, I'd love to see how the "facebook clone" that got sold for $50 ended up.
A few months ago I took a good look around to see what was available for this sort of thing, and the best I found was "IT Moonlighter", which has changed its name to http://www.guru.com/
The thing that struck me most was that it was well thought out; the way you can register a profile, search for work packages, and the escrow service to get paid - particularly valuable to me as I am in the UK and the things I was looking for were mainly in the USA.
Having said all that, my day job suddenly got better and I only ended up applying for a few very interested jobs but they picked people who were clearly happy with a very low wage!
I would not be surprised if these business-2-programmer direct sites attract a lot of freelance Indian programmers.
With all due respect, and I am simply repeating the words of an Indian colleague of mine: All the "good" indian engineers already have jobs in the US and are too busy to do freelance work. The ones who bid on these sites are the ones who are either totally inexperienced, or weren't "good enough" to get work overseas.
In my experience, sites like RentACoder don't really work. I've only been there as a coder, not as an 'employer'.
When I had some spare time I'd sometimes bid on a project. I never actually got one though. The employers usually want a lot of work done for very little money.
I see a project and think about it. To do a real good job, would require about 10 hours. Max bid: $100. That's $10 an hour (7 euro?) BEFORE taxes. I'd make more working in a supermarket. In the end, you see someone getting this job for $30.
Either there are some people that just about work for free or, more likely, the end product is not quite the quality expected by the employer.
So my impression is, if you want the job done good, get more cash. If you're getting more cash anyway, you can just as well hire someone that's close to you.
Also see RentACoder.com. It's a very god place to get work done, and to do work. The *free* arbitration process is fair, too.
I'm currently on a freelance project for a small consulting firm. My NDA prohibits me from getting any more into it, but I thought I would share my experience and philosophy on the whole shebang. My biggest problem so far is that I don't have any sort of structured documentation to work from. If I had been given a business requirements doc, or an SRS (lord halleleujah), I could have knocked it out no problem. Quite the opposite, he is relinquishing a lot of control and decision making to me, and I have to continually remind my client that the terms of completion, and what constitutes the deliverable, are determine by him. He's already given me a broad framework for the project, and one of my biggest challenges is eliciting requirements out of him. Anyway, my view of freelance is that a developer is there to make implementation decisions based on the requirements that the project sponsor has decided upon. Having a formal SRS means you have a laundry list of what is and is-not done at the end of the project. BTW, if anyone is looking for a freelance developer for small to medium sized projects, please drop me a line. I've got 7 years of experience in an enterprise level of environment (ongoing) and 3 years of freelance experience.
I'm wondering, what about sysadmins? There are people with a dedicated server that want to have a knowledgeable sysadmin look at it for one or two hours each week. Do these freelance programmer sites also include gigs for sysadmins? Or are there specific sites for those jobs?
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lots of good programmers don't have enough $ [who does?] or enough interesting work to keep them from reading slashdot. But they are NOT all unemployed. When you are in touch with a coder, be clear that you are NOT interested in tangling with the legal department of any other employer with whom that coder may have signed non-compete and assignment of copyrights and patents agreements. Require signed releases to this effect.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
In my experience these websites are not useful to the serious freelance programmer who wants to pay the bills. However, they are vaulable as a way for students or those lacking in experience/qualifications as a way to find jobs with which to build up a portfolio. Bidding very low or offering to do jobs for free and explaining your situation will win contracts from small companies or individual sole-traders. As an employer, If someone offers to send you a free prototype, you have nothing to lose. I've been doing PHP/SQL freelance work in this manner for about 3 years while doing crap temporary Admin jobs and looking for a proper programming role, seen virtually no money whatsoever from it but have landed a permanent C# software development job largely on the strength of this (mostly unpaid) experience.
I've been working on Rent A Coder for the last couple months, and just finished a large project on it, that took 2 months. I agree that generally the site would work best for small projects. I think I got lucky, and managed to establish a good working relationship with the buyer. What helped most was being very clear about what was in the contract, and finding out what exactly was expected of me. The best advice I can offer is to discuss with any potential coders every point of the contract, and what's expected in the project. As further colloquial evidence that there are some good experiences on the freelance front, I have a further contract with the same buyer coming up. Apparantly, he was rather pleased with how the first project turned out.
http://www.projectbids.co.uk/ is a site we run which performs this function. You'll find that you get a very mixed bag of responses but some are very good, especially if you give a good definition of your project. We try to aim for varied types of projects rather than just all technical and we could always do with a few more just to keep folk interested!
Rentacoder is also fairly good and we've had a few small projects completed by coders from there too.
Stick to the locals, at least you have more business rights that way.
Doing this you also support local businesses and people. Keeping currency in the area thus helps the local economy.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I recently used http://www.wizbids.com/ and must say that I hope this is a trend. Unlike similar sites, they don't have a million rules in place prohibiting you from getting work. It's a refreshing change for those of us doing freelance work and I hope the other sites follow suit. Oh, and their fees are the best I've found.