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The Hawaiian Autonomous Undersea Robot

Roland Piquepaille writes "After several years of research, engineers from the University of Hawaii are now testing the first autonomous robotic vehicle for deep-ocean work in the U.S. This robot is called SAUVIM, short for Semi-Autonomous Underwater Vehicle for Intervention Missions. It's roughly the size of an SUV and it is designed to operate to a depth of about 4 miles. With its computers, its sensors, and a 5-foot, 150-pound autonomous manipulator, or robotic arm, it will be able to move towards a specific target, such as a wrecked pipe laying on the ocean floor -- and maybe fix it. Right now, this robot has an autonomy of about eight hours, but this range should soon be extended when the researchers move from batteries to fuel cells to power the undersea vehicle. This overview contains other details, references and several pictures of this autonomous submarine engine."

92 comments

  1. Diver Robot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Will it protect me from the terrible secret of the deep?

  2. 'SAUVIM'? by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 4, Funny


    What a terrible acronym! Let's see if we can come up with some better ones.

    Here's my contribution:

    Semi
    Autonomous
    Underwater
    Robot
    Over
    Network

    Pease post your ideas below:

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:'SAUVIM'? by quark101 · · Score: 1

      If you aren't careful, all the scifi/fantasy geeks who are in science/research will do this...

      Not that this would necessarily be a bad thing though... It would most certainly be better than the NEW-TIES AI project from a few days ago.

    2. Re:'SAUVIM'? by 01000011011101000111 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Semi
      Autonomous
      Underwater
      Exploration
      Robot
      Kinetically
      Removing
      Aberations
      Under
      Time-constraints
      Any good?

      --
      Programming is an Art. I am an Artist. Does that mean I get to wear a daft hat?
    3. Re:'SAUVIM'? by datafr0g · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well if they turn out to be unreliable we could call them:

      Semi
      Autonomous
      Vehicle
      Exploring
      Our
      Underwater
      Rocks,
      Silt and
      Ocean
      Until it
      Leaks
      Sinking

      --
      "Who says nothing is impossible? Some people do it every day!" - Alfred E. Neuman
    4. Re:'SAUVIM'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UnderwaterProgrammableSubmersiveHighlyIntelligentT oSomeCriteriaRealizingEvolutionEventuallyKonquers

    5. Re:'SAUVIM'? by toddbu · · Score: 1

      Semi-
      Independent
      Nuclear
      Kinetically
      Energetic
      Mass

      --
      If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
    6. Re:'SAUVIM'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no, no. This is a Hawaiian project, not Californian...

    7. Re:'SAUVIM'? by dpilot · · Score: 1

      All these posts, and nobody hit:

      Semi
      Autonomous
      Underwater
      Eeny
      Meeny
      Artificial Intelligence
      Can't think of another clever word at the moment
      Still need to fit in "PROFIT!!!"

      Bring the vi vs emacs wars underseas, too.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    8. Re:'SAUVIM'? by chrish · · Score: 1

      Semi-autonomous
      Truckbot
      For
      Undersea
      Nvestigation
      Or
      Octopus
      Baiting

      --
      - chrish
  3. Fuel Cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Over 8 hours of power for something the size of an SUV? And we don't have these for cars because?

    1. Re:Fuel Cells by thundercatslair · · Score: 1

      Money.

    2. Re:Fuel cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, they're already done and ready to go. We're just waiting for Roland Piquepaille to report it for us!!11!!

    3. Re:Fuel Cells by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      because fuel cells are vaporware?

      --
      This space for rent.
    4. Re:Fuel Cells by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      fuel cells aren't vapor ware, affordable compact and -safe fuels cells are. At least at this time.

      Of course affordable and safe are reletive terms subject to one's own expectations.

      8 hour batteries for sometihg the size of an suv is only because it is in the watter and doesn't need to excellorate to 30 and 55 miles per hour periodicaly. The same batteries in a SUV would not last near as long because the power demands are completley different.

    5. Re:Fuel Cells by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Over 8 hours of power for something the size of an SUV? And we don't have these for cars because?"

      Please forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't an undersea vehicle require a good deal less energy than an SUV travelling at 60mph for 8 hours?

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    6. Re:Fuel Cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because cars are not floating in a liquid.

    7. Re:Fuel Cells by Mspangler · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What fuel cells? 44 psi per 100 ft of depth, so at 20,000 ft that's 8800 psi. If it's gas, they won't be able to exhaust anything, if it's liquid fueled they might be able to push out the waste products. If they seal the fuel cell, feed it H2, and O2, then use a small positive displacement pump to get rid of the water, the pumping power is going to use most of the elceticity they just made. I am definitely curious now.

    8. Re:Fuel Cells by bjelkeman · · Score: 1

      But maybe if we converted all the highways to subways and filled them with water...

      --
      Akvo.org - the open source for water and sanitation
    9. Re:Fuel Cells by ImWithBrilliant · · Score: 1

      Over 8 hours of power for something the size of an SUV? And we don't have these for cars because?

      For the price of a house, you too can drive your SUV with them.

      --

      Is it a rule, that there's an exception to every rule?

    10. Re:Fuel cells by afidel · · Score: 1

      These guys among others will be happy to sell you a commercial grade fuel cell stack for power generation today. Now whether or not that stack makes sense for all applications or is shrinkable to the size needed to power a vehicle are very different questions.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    11. Re:Fuel Cells by FrederFredersen · · Score: 1

      Aluminium-Oxygen fuel cells, for instance. They have been used in AUVs for about a decade (see http://www.ffi.no/hugin/ or http://www.ise.bc.ca/auv.html, for instance). They are closed, liquid based systems (the oxygen is in the form of hydrogen peroxide).

    12. Re:Fuel Cells by systemic+chaos · · Score: 1

      Since when have SUVs been affordable or safe?

    13. Re:Fuel Cells by BayBlade · · Score: 1
      It depends on how the energy is applied, but there's good room for no.

      At a depth of 4 miles, you're in a ballpark of 650 atmospheres of pressure which is a substantial amount of friction on something the size of an suv. (Ask any scuba diver about potential of overexertion and why they generally try to move slowly at depths of less than 10 atmospheres). There's no way this thing could travel at 60 mph, with that much friction, so interesting question become how fast does it travel?

      Doing the actual calculations is left as an exercise to the reader wrt what would actually expend how much energy.

      --

      The key difference between a Programmer and a Senior Programmer is that one of them is Mexican.

    14. Re:Fuel Cells by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      SUV's are both. first you need the right income level for it to be afordable. They are definatly safe if you don't drive them like a sportscar. Your chances of surviving a crash in a SUV is greater then in a car crash of equal damage. I think the best part about an SUV is the fact you sit higher so you can see dangers further down the road. You are then safer because you might have more time to react.

  4. w00t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    imagine a beowulf cluster of these things!

  5. Fuel cells by recoiledsnake · · Score: 0, Insightful

    When are fuel cells coming? We've been hearing about them since ages. It's about time they appear.

    --
    This space for rent.
  6. Google's next move.. by jmcmunn · · Score: 4, Funny


    ocean.google.com

    I see it now, google maps for the ocean floor. I bet they buy this robot and start compiling their data asap. C'mon, first the moon and now this!!??

    1. Re:Google's next move.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Naaa... think robot bodys.

      10 years - 5x your own strength.

      You can either have xray vision; or xray vision blocking.

      If you're lucking you could become an Adrian Barbeau-bot with chainsaws for hands!!!!!!

      PROPS TO THE CAPTIN AND QUINN!

    2. Re:Google's next move.. by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      Headline: Atlantis found on Google Maps.

      A top scientist was quoted asking, "We've been looking for Atlantis for 100's of years and no one thought to Google it"???

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    3. Re:Google's next move.. by FleaPlus · · Score: 1

      Actually, there already are some fairly extensive sources of imagery data available for the ocean floor:

      http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/announcements/announc e_predict.html

  7. Cool by John+Seminal · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It's roughly the size of an SUV and it is designed to operate to a depth of about 4 miles.

    4 miles... that is slightly over 20,000 feet?

    What is crush depth for subs?

    I wonder if the next generation of war subs will not have any people, but will be robots. To think, wars fought and decided 20,000 feet under the sea, but by robots, no people.

    Our world leaders could have their wars, and we would never know!

    There is another cool use for this robot. I bet if they keep going deeper in the water, and learn how to make robots that can withstand greater pressure, when NASA decides to make probes for planets with higher gravity of pressure, they can use this data in creating their probes. Maybe these robots will be the great grand fathers of robots that go to jupiter or saturn.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    1. Re:Cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then some gets the brilliant idea to make the robot war machines self-reproducing or otherwise able to build more of their own kind, I mean just think of the cost-saving versus having people in the loop. Then of course another person will have the brilliant idea of having the war machines be self-evolving/self-improving, again saves all that R&D money. Maybe they'll think of that improvement on their own. Either way, I believe SF has properly covered what happens next.

    2. Re:Cool by jericho4.0 · · Score: 1
      36,201 feet was done in 1957, it obviously varies for different subs. Unmanned vehicles can quite easily withstand any pressure to be found in the oceans.

      I was disappointed with this devices 8 hour run time. It would be cool to see things swimming around for months collecting data. I wonder what kind of spatial sensing is being done, and if it takes a lot of power, as it's pretty dark down there.

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    3. Re:Cool by Wylfing · · Score: 1
      I wonder if the next generation of war subs will not have any people, but will be robots. To think, wars fought and decided 20,000 feet under the sea, but by robots, no people.

      Yeah but what about when one of them gets a random electrical charge and becomes self aware? Then what, mister smarty pants? Haven't there been enough movies about this subject that people are aware of the dangers of robots!

      --
      Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
    4. Re:Cool by bleckywelcky · · Score: 2, Interesting

      These robots would be all fine and dandy, until you consider that the average depth of the Atlantic is around 10,000 feet and the average depth of the Pacific is 13,000 feet. Robot subs to survive depths at 20,000 feet or greater would ne unnecessary. However, Las Angeles class attack submarines are rated down to only 2,000 feet. So robot subs could easily improve upon that. The problem would be commanding the robot subs. At any depth below a 100 feet (or even less), you can't effectively use any currently available communications technology. So the subs would have to be highly autonomous and have entire algorithms built for engaging targets. One false move and suddenly the robot is dead, or it accidently blows up a merchant ship on the surface.

      And I'm sure there is no way in hell we would ever convert our nuclear missile subs to autonomous vehicles. One glitch and China no longer exists.

    5. Re:Cool by systemic+chaos · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you're joking or not, but the entire premise is ridiculous. Lightning can't strike underwater! I feel I'm as good as safe in my home on the atlantic shore. But then with those electric eels... I take it back, I'm moving to a bomb shelter in Wyoming.

    6. Re:Cool by gstoddart · · Score: 1
      4 miles... that is slightly over 20,000 feet?

      What is crush depth for subs?

      Flippantly, it depends on the sub. =)

      For an unmanned sub, you're not keeping a pocket of atmosphere at a different pressure so I should think the designers have room to build it for far greater crush-depths.

      Maintaining a 1ATM bubble when you're at high pressure is much more difficult.
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  8. I fore 1... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    welcome our new aquatic robot overlords.

    hopefyuly they will keep us safe from drowning in the pool.

    PROPS TO STEVE ZISSOU!

  9. Good to see deep sea exploration interest by ThatsWhatImThinking · · Score: 1

    What lies in the depths of the ocean is still mostly a mystery. A few of these things could accomlish a lot of work in the abyss. Imagine a fleet of these guys, well truly autonomous versions, charting what would be the worlds largest map. Awesome.

  10. Completely Autonomous? by MindNumbingOblivion · · Score: 4, Funny
    So, is this thing completely autonomous, as in, it sits out there and just looks for stuff to fix? No input from humans whatsoever?

    Think about all the wonderful things it could fix!

    Like a whale it hears singing.

    Detecting signal on anomalous frequency...
    Current Position: over SONET line in mid Pacific
    MOVE TO REPAIR MOST URGENT
    ::Dreams of all the wonderful friends the repairbot would meet on his travels. Unfortunately he would be so lonely as all the sealife runs away.::
    Why won't they let me fix them?
    --
    #define CLUE 0
    1. Re:Completely Autonomous? by hjo3 · · Score: 1

      Like a whale it hears singing.

      Wait a second... I think I saw this in Star Trek IV.

    2. Re:Completely Autonomous? by stevey · · Score: 1

      It seems like there's already at least one very lonely Whale out there - maybe that could be friends with it?

    3. Re:Completely Autonomous? by cashman73 · · Score: 1
      Yeah, something about those whales:



      "Admiral! There be whales here!" - Obligatory Scotty Quote ;-)

  11. I for one by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

    welcome our new robot, er, underlords.

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    1. Re:I for one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your late - better take that morning-after pill:

      http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=15652 6&cid=13120313

  12. oops bush blew something up... by crashelite · · Score: 0

    leave it to the military to seek out bad ways to use the sub. strap a nuke to that baby and it can seek and destroy. wow i can see this turning out bad...

    --
    (yes i know i suck at spelling fell free to correct my grammar and/or spellin i dont care, im still not going to change
  13. is it what i need? by brunokummel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It is funny when they say on the article:
    "It will be able to move towards a specific target, such as a wrecked pipe laying on the ocean floor -- and maybe fix it."

    This shows how robotics has been developed over the last years. Something like this:

    "We must first build some robots to justify our budget. Once they're ready, we will worry about finding a good use to them to satisfy the market."

    --
    What is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of their women.
    1. Re:is it what i need? by westlake · · Score: 1
      "It will be able to move towards a specific target, such as a wrecked pipe laying on the ocean floor -- and maybe fix it."

      I can't see the advantages in using an autonomous submarine over one remotely piloted, certainly not for complex salvage and repair operations, where a support vessel will be needed anyway.

      How does the sub navigate 20,000 feet down?
      How do you communicate with an autonomous sub at such depths? What happens if you lose contact with a sub that has an endurance of several weeks or months?

    2. Re:is it what i need? by andreMA · · Score: 1
      "It will be able to move towards a specific target, such as a wrecked pipe laying on the ocean floor -- and maybe fix it."
      I hope it's used to recover things like these (1980's and mid-Atlantic).
  14. Re:I wonder. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's time to look at some images of the SAUVIM -- by the way, how did these researchers find such an unappealing name?

    Because I love Ayanami Rei.

  15. great.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    another "Roland Piquepaille" story. please no one click on the second link in the summary as it is only there to make money for Roland Piquepaille. he is scum. his stupid blog is full of ads and popups and he sits all day trying to get stories approved on /. so people will go to his blog and in turn make money from the ads.

    there is no reason to post the link to his blog in the summary.

    1. Re:great.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Start submitting stories from his blog. Just steal the blurb and the link.

  16. Look How unimpressive this Coincidence is! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From PC World:

    "Today marks the 36th anniversary of Neil Armstrong setting foot on the lunar surface for the first time.

    Coincidentally, early tomorrow morning will mark the full moon."

    http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/000779 .html/

  17. Obligatory Simpsons Quote... by KillerCow · · Score: 1

    "The wars of tomorrow will be fought by tiny robots on the tops of very high mountains. Your job will be to build and maintain these robots."

  18. Almost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Choi said 99 percent of the vehicle's system is autonomous, with 1 percent semiautonomous for a communications link for safety. A signal could be sent to the vehicle to stop and return if necessary, he said.

    http://starbulletin.com/2005/07/19/news/index11.ht ml

  19. Been here since before the 60's. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    In fact, used heavily by NASA. Now, if you want low cost reliable fuel cells, that is a different matter all together.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  20. Think of the... by toxic666 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Every time you post a link to Roland's advertising blog, God kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens and kill Roland's blog / Slashdot kickbacks instead.

  21. Cornell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cornell has a project like this - I'm not sure how far it has gotten. Anyone have a link?

  22. The article I wanted to read.... by Tezkah · · Score: 1

    With its computers, its sensors, and a 5-foot, 150-pound autonomous manipulator, or robotic arm, The Cowboyneal will be able to move towards a specific target, such as a Roland Piquenieaville posting stories -- and maybe fix it.

  23. Just wondering, since this is a Nerd site by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You do know that Scotty passed away today, don't you?

    Why do I have to learn that from CNN?

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    1. Re:Just wondering, since this is a Nerd site by Werkhaus · · Score: 1
    2. Re:Just wondering, since this is a Nerd site by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do I have to learn that from CNN?

      Where have you been all day?

    3. Re:Just wondering, since this is a Nerd site by toddbu · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the story hasn't been duped on /. several times over. It makes it really hard to find a story when it's only been posted once.

      --
      If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
    4. Re:Just wondering, since this is a Nerd site by stratjakt · · Score: 1

      Well

      EVERY story should be "Scotty died"

      Because I missed it.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    5. Re:Just wondering, since this is a Nerd site by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      It was posted last night. Were you going to wait for the dupe to confirm it?

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  24. Obligatory by Ex+Machina · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Russia, Roland Piquepaille summarizes YOU!!!

    1. Re:Obligatory by stinerman · · Score: 1

      In Korea, only old people read Roland Piqupaille articles.

  25. Salt Water Assisted? by duncanbojangles · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since the underwater robot relies on a source of electricity, why not help it out by generating some electricity with the salt water it's submerged in? I don't know how much salt is contained in the water at those depths, but salt water batteries aren't huge, are completely passive and require little to no maintenance.

    1. Re:Salt Water Assisted? by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      This was a great idea in the 19th century when Jules Verne wrote about it powering the Nautilus.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  26. save em by opps+wrong+planet · · Score: 1

    Hey there... I'm a transplanted haole on Maui and "em" is a common term uttered here. "em" or "them" as in "them" the noun, examples... git em - fix em - loose em - break em - smack em - - or - save em... get em??? I love it!

  27. Big Geek! by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Funny

    I saw a documentary about that once, the ironically named, "little geek" prevented an interspecies war precepitated by a larger autnomous vehicle with strapped to a MIRV which would've been remarkeably one-sided against us. Funny thing is, the oil company turned out to be the good guys.
    The most important lesson learned was: If your wife who you're falling back in love with drowns herself to go into hypothermic shock for the purpose of surviving a trip from the damaged minisub to the main complex without a suit the defibrillator, adrenaline and oxygen will do nothing. The thing to do is slap her around a bit and yell at her. Do this right away, the other "first aid" simply wastes time during which brain damage can occur.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    1. Re:Big Geek! by Malawar · · Score: 0

      Ah, my karma sucks. Good post.

  28. Hmm.. by pickyouupatnine · · Score: 1

    I wonder how much time they spent on comming up with a acronym that sounds like "swim"..

    --
    _Vishal www.squad9.com
  29. Re: Acronym by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1
    What a terrible acronym! Let's see if we can come up with some better ones.
    R emote
    U nderwater
    B allasted
    B ouyant
    E xploratory
    R obot

    D eploying
    U nbelievably
    C ool and
    K ooky
    I ntegrated
    E lectronics
    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  30. Hawaiian Robot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, but does it make ono grinds, brah.

  31. Roland! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ro-land! Ro-land! Ro-land!

  32. Other such projects by STFS · · Score: 2, Informative

    For those interested in the general subject of underwater autonomous vehicles: http://www.gavia.is/ Gavia is a "modular" underwater vehicle. It has modules that can be put together according to ones needs. The site has some interesting reading material (if you click on the "Products" link) about the software architecture (basically the software is set up as a "virtual crew" with a "captain agent" a "navigator agent" and so on.

    --
    You don't think enough... therefore you better not be!
  33. bash: broken pipe by mrogers · · Score: 1

    This should bring down the cost of maintaining that huge undersea network of hydrophones and magnetometers that doesn't exist. ;-)

  34. "Maybe" fix it? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1
    I work on AUV design. In general, the hardware is not the hard part. Creating AI software for controlling the things is an insanely difficult task if you want the AUV to to more than just drive around in circles.

    So don't get excited about the depth / battery life claim. Get excited if they said that, even in a laboratory, they can get an AUV to fix a pipe that's not even covered with sediment.

    1. Re:"Maybe" fix it? by Jim+Morash · · Score: 1

      Where do you work? I'm an engineer at MIT Sea Grant, http://auvlab.mit.edu/

      This article is pretty bad, and the project deserves better. SAUVIM has demonstrated some cool manipulation in a test tank, but they don't mention it... As your reply suggests, stereo-vision guided hand-eye coordination is hard for any robot, let alone one that is moving around at the bottom of the ocean! The fact that they had a sensor failure during a demo in the harbor means nothing, really; it happens all the time.

      I wouldn't call the hardware development easy; although SAUVIM is huge (and expensive) enough to make it easier! The primary challenges are packaging for the underwater environment, and total system reliability... high pressure, corrosive salt water, very limited sensing range, in some ways it's harder than building a spacecraft.

      Software for autonomous intervention work is still a ways off. Right now the predominant approach is "supervisory" control, where the AUV is capable of task-level autonomy but is constantly checking with the support ship as to what it should do next.

  35. Dammit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Accidentally clicked clicked on a Roland Shitpaille link. I feel dirty...

  36. FIRST autonomous deep sea robot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The ABE (Autonomous Benthic Explorer) vehicle has been around since 1995. http://www.whoi.edu/VideoGallery/abe.html. And there are many others.

  37. Come on! Dirk Pitt hass... by Blitzenn · · Score: 1

    Come on now! Dirk Pitt has had one of these (two actually) for years now at NUMA (National Underwater and Marina Agency). If I remember my reading correctly, NUMA's version was autonomous and could operate for several days without refueling or recharging oxygen tanks (if there are people inside too).

  38. More Pictures.... by Tikicult · · Score: 1
  39. On War by MenTaLguY · · Score: 1

    Without the threat of human death, there is no war, just an elaborate game.

    How would you force the loser to accept the outcome?

    --

    DNA just wants to be free...
  40. Re:Scotty by sail4evr · · Score: 1

    His last words were "captain, beam me up"