Online Backup Solutions?

OmnipotentEntity asks: "I'm an IT Manager (and also a lifeguard, don't ask) for a small private club. Recently parts of our server's RAID went bad just as Hurricane Dennis hit, making life a living hell for me and everyone involved. So, I figured perhaps backing up information online would make stuff like this less incredibly painful. A quick browse of Google will show that there are a lot of businesses offering automatic, offsite, online backup solutions. It seems it's becoming a big thing. The largest problem is that they all look alike -- same implementation, similar websites, it looks like someone came through this part of the Internet with a cookie cutter, and by the information available on the website and pricing (which may or may not be available without filling out 100 forms) I can't tell a good company from bad company. I've never had any experience with any of these companies, and I wanted to know if any of you guys had, and if so what were your experiences with them? What are the things to look for? What are the things to avoid? Am I barking up the wrong tree?"

Comments

Backups online

[Hansele]

Be really careful with this. What happens if the provider gets hacked?

Re:Backups online

[Fjornir]

There's this really, really neat thing called 'encryption' you might want to look into.

Re:Backups online

[skalcevich]

I use external USB hard drives with 400GB storage per drive. Swap drives at locations weekly with a spair set. Fast no reaccuring costs and does the job. Tapes are too slow, online is too slow / cost can be a lot for a lot of data.

Re:Backups online

[Kevin DeGraaf]

unless there's some contract guarenteeing the integrety of the data, storing stuff with a third party is just as stupid as not doing any kind of backup.

Bzzt, wrong. Dunno why I'm responding to some A.C...

Zip or tar/gzip/bzip2 your files. Encrypt with GPG. Take MD5 checksum. Upload to backup company.

If your disk crashes, there is a nonzero and generally pretty decent chance that you will get your data back. You can use your MD5 checksum to verify bit-for-bit integrity.

Contrast that with the 0% chance you have of recovering your data from a nonexistent backup target. "Just as stupid"? As if.

Re:Backups online

[EnronHaliburton2004]

2gB is plenty of space

I can just imagine the look on people's faces when the article submitter, an IT Manager, goes to the staff and suggests gmail as a solution.

Some of us have these things called a J O B. At most jobs, 2GB is NOT enough space to backup all the core systems.

And again, what if the provider gets cracked?

I think I understand why you think 2GB is "plenty" of space.

Re:Backups online

[lbates_35476]

We use Websafe (http://www.websafe.com/). https:/// SSL encryption while on Net and AES-256 while at rest (I have the clear-text encryption master key in my possesion). Also supports WebDAV webfolders via WebDrive service (http://www.webdrive.com/). Comes with free ZBKUP utility that zips data BEFORE it is transmitted and can be scheduled to do lights-out backups unattended via webfolders or you can use any D2D backup you like. Depending on your Internet upload performance you can easily upload gigabyte (compressed) backups during the night. No firewall issues because it only uses https:/// port 443. Cluster of Linux/64 servers power the service. Each storage disk is on separate controller and is mirrored. Backups are maintainted with a grandfather, father, son rotation (nightly) as well. Supports browser access and sharing of individual folders with other WebSafe users. Not the cheapest, but the combination of encryption, collaboration, and ease of use are unmatched.

usdatatrust.com

[alex323]

I've always had good experiences with usdatatrust.com. WHat I like about them is that they backup your data as it changes. I find that to be extremely useful.

Offsite Co-op?

[kwerle]

I'm curious to know if there is any kind of off-site co-op. You know - you store my data, and I'll store someone's. Encrypted, blah blah blah.

Call me a commie - but why not?

Re:Offsite Co-op?

[dgatwood]

Agreed. Online data storage is hideously expensive. A coalition of businesses and/or individuals doing a shared backup strategy via a bittorrent-like protocol would be far more effective at preventing data loss, for far less overall cost to everyone.

Of course, that sort of mechanism doesn't help if your purpose is to use backups for historical data retention, but then again, if that's your goal, online backup doesn't make sense anyway.

What would be nice would be for this sort of mechanism to be sufficiently simple that an idiot can understand it. You specify the number of unique copies (n) of your data based on how much you care about it. In exchange, you agree to store 2n times as many gigs of information for other people on your drives. That space is reserved in advance at upload time, and freed when you tell the software that the backup of that data is no longer needed.

To prevent abuse, laptops would not be allowed to participate, as the availability of data backed up on someone's laptop is dubious at best. Machines participating must have either a static IP or dynamic DNS (or, ideally, the software could automatically register some sort of free dyndns type name for you).

During the first 72 hours prior to the backup, the machine must respond to at least 75% of hourly requests for confirmation from other machines that have copies of its data. If it does not, it will be assumed to be a laptop and the data stored will be disposed of after 72 hours as space is needed. This means that you can use it if your machine is dying as a temporary backup mechanism, since the data won't go away immediately, but at the same time, will effectively prevent abusing the system by using it to backup people's laptops.

After 72 hours, the confirmation rate will decrease to once per day. A host that has been gone for more than two weeks will be assumed to have been abandoned. However, there should be a mechanism for making one machine double as a stand-in for a dead machine for an arbitrary period of time, so long as it provides enough storage to meet the original machine's obligations.

In addition to confirmation requests from the copyholder, the machine with the original data should attempt (daily) to contact each copyholder to verify that bidirectional connections are possible, thus ensuring that if the data needs to be recovered, it can be.

Obviously, since all data would be encrypted, the encyption key would be stored in a file on system being backed up. This means that you MUST back up if you ever want to recover your data....

Re:Offsite Co-op?

[skraps]

Oceanstore is exactly what you described. From the website:

"OceanStore is a global persistent data store designed to scale to billions of users. It provides a consistent, highly-available, and durable storage utility atop an infrastructure comprised of untrusted servers."

Re:Offsite Co-op?

[Jim McCoy]

How does this sound?

You store my data, I will store yours.

Error-corrected and replicated so that 50% of the cloud could disappear and you would still have 4 or 5 nines of reliability.

Per-file, content-dependant encryption (e.g. every file gets its own AES encryption key)

Free accounts have a 10:1 provided vs. consumed ratio (to cover replication and error-correction bloat, with the ratio expected to drop over time) and people who want to buy a better ratio or even not have to provide space can do so.

Access to data backed-up by any of your systems from any other system you have installed the software on. (No more need to fiddle with system-to-system sync to make sure you have access to all of your files.)

Sound interesting? If so, head over to Allmydata and sign up for the beta test. [Windows only at the moment, but OS X and Linux versions will be available in a couple of months...]

great solution

[rnd()]

this is a great solution...

I use Data Deposit Box

[Anonymous Coward]

The best I've found so far is DataDepositBox.com. Continous back up for 1c/meg/day. Secure website, download files from it, yadda yadda. Just like every other service I guess.

In my experience, they had good customer service, a good data center, strong software, and easy set up. Easy set up was important for lazy folks likeme. I tried to do my own offsite storate with a DVDR and safety deposit box. Didn't work so well.

I run it on two file servers (one for my home and one for my dedicated hosting server) as a service. I back up about 3G of my stuff and pay like $18/month. Hard to beat that. Couldn't find other places that were in that price range.

You said don't ask...

[BaudKarma]

...but I gotta.

IT Managers get zero chicks. Lifeguards get tons of chicks. What happens when then two are combined in the same person?

(unless of course, you are a chick yourself, in which case I apologize for my blatantly sexist remarks)

Re:You said don't ask...

[BlogPope]

IT Managers get zero chicks. Lifeguards get tons of chicks. What happens when then two are combined in the same person?

You get the curious effect of a "chick ring" as the attractive and repulsive forces reach an equilibrium somewhere just out of arms reach. From there they tend to fall into a stable orbit.

extra hard drives are the key for me.

[AmiNTT]

For my back ups, I have a fairly simple system. I picked up two tiny (2.5") external drives - about 60 gigs each. I back up data onto one, and bring it to a nearby bank, where I rent a safe deposit box.

Each Monday, I back a back up to the drive that is at the house (where I work from), and take it to the bank. Then I switch them, putting the newest drive in the bank, and taking home the "old' back up. This gets repeated every week (although admittedly not always on Mondays).

So far, this has worked for me pretty well.

Costs? $250 (Canadian) dollars for the drive and $80 per year for the safe deposit box, which also stores all source miniDV tapes from my event video business.

Online backup? - Capacity

[tacokill]

So, umm, how long - exactly - does it take to upload 560 GB over a broadband connection?

Actually, you'd better make that 560 + 560 GB because I may want to back up my OTHER PC as well.


I realize I am being sarchastic but I am always confused by "online" backup simply because it doesn't make much sense from a practicality standpoint. A semi-modern PC has a minimum 40GB sized hard drive. And it only goes up from there. I've been online for quite sometime and while things have gotten MUCH better, with respect to bandwidth, it still takes a LONG, LONG, LONG time to transfer huge amounts of data. Note, I am not talking about your 4.5gig ISO image. I'm talking 20 of them. In a row.

From my point of view: it's dead. Please enlighten me, if you experience is different.

Re:Online backup? - Capacity

[pthisis]

A semi-modern PC has a minimum 40GB sized hard drive. And it only goes up from there. I've been online for quite sometime and while things have gotten MUCH better, with respect to bandwidth, it still takes a LONG, LONG, LONG time to transfer huge amounts of data. Note, I am not talking about your 4.5gig ISO image. I'm talking 20 of them. In a row.

Most businesses don't care about backing up all of your pr0n and music. For a lot of places, if you back up documents, email, and source code, you've got the core business stuff--and that's often fairly small. You do a full local backup of the servers, have a standard image of the desktops, then do web backups of a few directories nightly (e.g. all files on some samba share, a source repository, email). The web backups are rsync'd (or equivalent) so only the day's changes are transferred.

It's not ideal, but for a lot of places it works. Of course, they often find out after a crash that employees _weren't_ storing everything in "Work Documents" folder like they're supposed to.

For home use I usually just do hourly snapshots to another machine at home (I keep every hour for the last week, and the 4 previous weeks, and montly for 6 months, and then just yearly) with something like:

http://www.mikerubel.org/computers/rsync_snapshots /

With nothing automated for off-site backups (though I do keep a handful of critical documents off-site by hand).

I cheat and do the initial rsync on local disk, only incremental stuff goes over the network.

Re:A lifeguard!?

[Lev13than]

I'm curious - what is it like being a lifeguard *and* an IT manager?

In many ways the jobs are quite similar. Both involve multiple safeguards against the spread of viruses, both deal with sharing limited resources against hundreds of thankless clients, and no matter how pristine you keep either work environment there's always going to be some kid that ruins it by filling your storage solution with shit.

Re:A lifeguard!?

[grammar fascist]

I'm curious - what is it like being a lifeguard *and* an IT manager?

I'd guess that every once in a while, he gets confused and tries to give a server mouth-to-mouth or reboot a drowned swimmer.

rsync+torrent=backup_cloud

[4of12]

I was looking for a free application like that a few weeks ago and found this guy's nice write-up of desired features.

Re:Use gmail.

[mshmgi]

Great idea ... now all I have to do is open up about 473 gmail accounts.

My recommendation.

[gardyloo]

It's been said before, but it's a great one:

Encrypt everything, then name the files something like "OMG_Hilton_XXX.avi" and upload to Kazaa or LimeWire or something. In 10 years you'll still be able to find copies.

You confused backups with availability.

[arete]

Time to get the backup back up is a valid consideration, but it's not the only one. How easy it is to MAKE the backup (and therefore how current it will be) is arguably more important because having more frequent backups IS more important. Driving to a different town every day is probably not an efficient use of your time unless you can't get enough pipe to xfer just the changed files. Hence online backups.

If you're paranoid then run your own backup host over ssh at a trusted someone's personal connection. But there's no solution superior to online backups if the incremental changes in files can be met with 100% of your extra nightly bandwidth. Try backup PC on sourceforge. Try using more than 1 at different locations.

Parent has a good, but different point: If you have a lot of data it's going to take a ton of time to get it back up. If this is likely to be a problem, then by all means find faster ways to ship your data. One way would be to drive and get whichever of your mulitple backup machines is closest. (If you only have 1 backup machine make a copy to take with you and leave the original where it was)

But another way, especially if you don't have access to the online backups, is to drive a harddrive full of stuff somewhere. IF your backup provider can do an restore from a partially recovered backup (ie, rsync) you can keep extra physical backups lying around and still having the online "current" backup to save you. That is, you could bring in your extra HD from a month ago and just rsync the stuff that changed.