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Wikipedia Announces Tighter Editorial Control

Daedalus_ wrote to mention a Reuters article reporting from Wikimania. "Wikipedia, the Web encyclopaedia written and edited by Internet users from all over the world, plans to impose stricter editorial rules to prevent vandalism of its content, founder Jimmy Wales was quoted as saying Friday." (Update: 08/06 23:45 GMT by J : But see his response here!) Meanwhile, kyelewis writes "WikiMania, the First International WikiMedia Conference is open in Germany, but if you couldn't gather the money or the courage to fly over, you can listen online in Ogg Vorbis format, or if you miss the talks, you can download them later. The WikiMania Broadcast page has more information, and the WikiMania Programme is also available, so jump in and learn more about the mysterious technology that is the wiki."

71 of 407 comments (clear)

  1. Isn't that an oxymoron? by FortKnox · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not to be mean (I looove wikipedia), but doesn't more control mean less 'wiki-like'?

    --
    Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
    1. Re:Isn't that an oxymoron? by solive1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that many people view Wikipedia, but when you see Emperor Palpatine in the spot where Pope Benedict's picture is supposed to be, Wikipedia loses credibility. Wikipedia wants to be a credible source of information that is open for people to add and contribute to, but since its popularity has risen, more and more people are going to abuse the power to contribute in less than meaningful ways.

      I like Wikipedia because I can look up almost anything and find an entry. They're trying to curb the problem of malicious users before it gets out of hand, which is good, IMO.

    2. Re:Isn't that an oxymoron? by FortKnox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not saying this is a good thing (trust me, I want it to stay very credible and use it often), but I just merely wanted to point out that they are growing out of their roots (which isn't always a bad thing).

      --
      Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
    3. Re: Isn't that an oxymoron? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful


      > That's my main worry, what I liked was the kind of controlled chaos of the idea

      Yeah, I like that too. Unfortunately, on the internet, once your site reaches a high enough profile every dickhead in the universe feels obligated to do whatever they can to screw it up.

      Like Slashdot, for example.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Isn't that an oxymoron? by hellomynameisclinton · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but it will me more 'pedia-like', which IMHO is better.

      While wiki can be dynamic and fluid, it was never meant to be a bulletin board or a chat room. With some highly contentious topics you end up with an off-topic name-calling match between 2 authors (if you read the revisions), and that's not in anyone's best interest.

      We're not talking about imposing a complete editing and peer-reviewing process like a print encyclopedia (which is also good, since dissenting opinions tend to not get preserved once they cross an editor's desk). We're talking about making it more dificult to deface, and more difficult to be off-topic.

    5. Re:Isn't that an oxymoron? by ifdef · · Score: 5, Informative

      I've been involved in editing some wikipedia articles, and in observing what was going in them.

      Certainly, you don't want to put too much of a damper on people's ability to modify the text in good faith, but some people are just vandals. In one case, somebody thought his version of history was the correct one, and whenever anybody edited the article, he would always just put his own version back. The thing is, he wouldn't discuss the issues, so there was no way to come to any kind of consensus about how to say something in a factual and neutral way, he would simply replace the current version with his own version. What little discussion he did actually get involved in was mostly him calling all the other editors extremely rude and racist names, and saying they should all go to the gas chambers. This is not a disagreement about the facts or the point of view, this is simply vandalism.

      I've also seen the text of articles replaced in whole or in part by obscenities. Not controversial articles, not appropriate or funny obscenities, just obscenities. Again, simply vandalism.

      As is replacing the Pope's picture, I suppose, but I would think that that was just a joke, which I suppose may have been offensive to some people, etc, etc, but that's the type of mistake I myself have made more times than I care to remember.

    6. Re:Isn't that an oxymoron? by Spellbinder · · Score: 2, Funny

      there is an optical similarity between Palpatine and this Benedict
      they both have this evil look

      --


      stop supporting microsoft with pirating their software!!!!!
    7. Re: Isn't that an oxymoron? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      But timothys been here from the start, long before Slashdot became well known.

    8. Re:Isn't that an oxymoron? by jafac · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think that about 99% of all of humanity's problems could be solved if someone could invent a reliable and reproducible process to take any text on any subject, and modify it so that it's objectively neutral. Personally, I think it's an inherent weakness in all human language, and quite possibly a fundamental component of human consciousness, that objective neutrality in an idea expressed in a human language, is actually impossible to achieve.

      (In other words, I think that just about any topic can and will be slanted to produce a political bias, and that humans will be arguing about politics until the end of time, or until the arguing brings an end to humans. . . whichever comes first)

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    9. Re:Isn't that an oxymoron? by kngthdn · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I couldn't believe Wikipedia could do this to us. The idea, of anyone being able to edit anything, is more important than the possiblity of Tiger Wood's page being replaced with "oMFg!! tIgeR WOODs sux". The only reason I have ever contributed to the site was because I am so amazed that it works. Yes, I have had my user page replaced with porn as a Troll's revenge for cleaning up vandalism, and egomanics have rolled back changes that I made.

      But it *always* gets fixed, very quickly. It's easy to imagine vandalism sitting undetected until it's "found", but that isn't the way it works. As soon as changes are submitted to an article, all the information (# of bytes changes, user or anonymous, article name, and a link to the last diff) is output on an IRC channel anyone can join. Using CryptoDerk's Vandal Fighter, a handy java program, makes it even better. Trolls are blacklisted, shared between peers on the network, and shown in bright red. All you have to so is watch it for a while, wait for an anonymous user to make a big change (always to the same articles, Bush, Homosexuality, Anus, etc.) and...you click the link and roll it back. That simple. People do this all the time, which is why there is so little vandalism that survives.

      At any rate, this article is totally 100% bogus. This is off the Wikipedia Announcements page:
      Numerous news outlets are quoting a Reuters report that Jimmy Wales has stated that there will be a "freeze" on editing. This statement has not been corroborated by any of the Wikimedia board, nor by any present at the Wikimania conference. General agreement among long-time Wikipedians is that Jimbo has been misleadingly quoted, and that the report is a giant steaming pile.
      Makes me feel better. ; )

      To all the doubters, Wikipedia works, and millions of people love it. If vandalism bothers you, download Cryptoderk's program and get to work.
  2. That still doesn't change some things. by TheOtherAgentM · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Hollabackgirl" will still be some term that Gwen Stefani just made the fuck up and tried to pass off as normal speech.

    1. Re:That still doesn't change some things. by dr_dank · · Score: 2, Funny

      That shit is bananas.

      B-A-N-A-N-A-S

      --
      Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
    2. Re:That still doesn't change some things. by ettlz · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Hollabackgirl" will still be some term that Gwen Stefani just made the fuck up and tried to pass off as normal speech.

      Well that article told me everything I needed to know, except where to get one.

  3. Hint hint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hey now, maybe a certain *other* site could take this opportunity to review the quality of its editors...

    1. Re:Hint hint by jayhawk88 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I agree, it's high time K5 got it's shit together.

    2. Re:Hint hint by metlin · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree, it's high time K5 got it's shit together.

      Its, not it's..

  4. Interesting, but... by imstanny · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "There may soon be so-called stable contents. In this case, we'd freeze the pages whose quality is undisputed..." The question is, however, how do you determine when something is undisputed. A lot of politically driven pages are constantly edited until there forms a 'balance' between opposing views; that, however, takes time and is never 'undisputed'.

    1. Re:Interesting, but... by Skyshadow · · Score: 3, Interesting
      "There may soon be so-called stable contents. In this case, we'd freeze the pages whose quality is undisputed..." The question is, however, how do you determine when something is undisputed. A lot of politically driven pages are constantly edited until there forms a 'balance' between opposing views; that, however, takes time and is never 'undisputed'.

      While there are a fairly small number of hotly contested pages, the vast bulk of the Wikipedia is comprised of short entries about fairly unremarkible subjects. These also tend to be the best pages to vandalize (especially in nonobvious ways) because they generally don't get looked at all that much.

      So while, say, the Robert Novak page is going to see a lot of dispute between now and whenever someone finally drives a stake through his heart, the page on the Byzantine Emperor Basil I (811-886 AD) probably isn't going to see a great number of worthwhile changes anytime soon.

      --
      Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    2. Re:Interesting, but... by ErroneousBee · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think they may mean biographies of minor dead people, old TV shows, etc.

      Freezing these would stop the totally ramdom vandals who pick rarely visited pages and insert incorrect information.

      --
      **TODO** Steal someone elses sig.
    3. Re:Interesting, but... by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So while, say, the Robert Novak page is going to see a lot of dispute between now and whenever someone finally drives a stake through his heart, the page on the Byzantine Emperor Basil I (811-886 AD) probably isn't going to see a great number of worthwhile changes anytime soon.

      Good point, but we make new discoveries about ancient "historical" data all the time.

      For example, wasn't Galileo declared innocent of heresy only this century?

      However, peer review of substantial pages is probably a good idea, especially for those which "should" be static by default.

      You can have permissive peer review - where people are notified of a change in a subject area they "watch" and have a window of time to either deny or approve it - when more than a threshold denies it, it goes to the official review committee - or you could have active peer review - where changes must be actively approved before they see the light of day.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  5. Good Idea. by autopr0n · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It always seemed a little silly to me that anyone even without so much as a valid logon could change the content of these pages.

    But I wonder what it will mean for people like me who post edits to maybe 4 or 5 articles a year, when we find an error?

    I think the biggest problem is edits to 'contraversial' posts, like "Intelegent Design" or "Joseph McCarthy".

    Of course the "real" trolls will simply poison the well by inserting subtle errors.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    1. Re: Good Idea. by idontgno · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Another problem is what I'll call "fan articles", their are lots of obscure people, bands, artists and so on making their way into Wikipedia, that have absolutly no Encyclopedic interest

      Well, not exactly "no interest". Someone had to be interested enough to create the article, yes?

      Do you mean "No interest to me, and to other right-thinking people like me?" Do you mean "No interest to the overwhelming majority of the reader base?"

      Yeah, generally, i vote "delete" in the inevitable "Vote for Deletion" calls on vanity pages and the like. But it bugs me that minority opinions are getting quashed because they aren't widely held. There's a fine line between "maintaining quality for the sake of credibility" and "maintaining conformity for the sake of the groupthink." Sometimes the voices of the crackpot are useful and, even occaisionally, right.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  6. The Slashdotter's dilemma by Gothmolly · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We want total freedom from censorship and total creative control!
    We want to be protected from malicious actions of both others and ourselves!
    Profit!

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  7. Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But I certainly hope that the changes are "you can't make a change without some kind of external board approving it" not "you can't make a change, EVER!". Like, let's say they lock the Pope Ratzlinger page to prevent vandalism, saying "this page is perfect! it doesn't need more changes!". Then then the Pope dies. Um... what now? Do we have to wait for whoever holds the key to the Pope page to wake up so wikipedia can be updated?

    I also wish they'd have better/clearer rules for what to do when some kind of cartel seizes a page and consistently ties to impose an editorial bias on it. Groups like the one at littlegreenfootballs will occasionally descend on a page and attempt to twist its content by claiming anything that doesn't bolster their close-minded worldview is "biased" and must be "fixed". Change one of these pages and it will be immediately rv'd to what the cartel wants. What do you do in such a case? Well, maybe the people who hang out on wikipedia all the time know, but someone just passing through has no idea.

  8. Some suggestions... by Corsican+Upstart · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Hmm.. I don't know if this really goes along with the openness aspect that Wikis have. I do know what they mean though; vandalism is a problem.

    Maybe for the "frozen" entries, updates should be allowed to be submitted, but then there'd be a voting, where the update would only be applied if enough people accepted it.

    Maybe they could even impliment a reputation system, where the votes of people with higher reputations count more, and/or where people with higher reputations can make changes without needing a vote...

    1. Re:Some suggestions... by 0xABADC0DA · · Score: 2, Insightful

      IMO a better solution is to just delay changes for a while. Have the main page shown for each article be one that is 1+ hours out of date from the current page (when you go to edit it takes you to the most up-to-date page).

      So in order to vandalize, the changes would have to survive a 'burn in' period where those people watching the article have a chance to cancel it before everybody sees it on the main page. This takes away the primary motivation for vandalism since nobody sees the change except to revert it. Currently people make rapid changes and keep hacking the articles day after day because they think somebody sees it, even for the several minutes or less before it is reverted. This incentive would be gone with a time-delayed scheme.

  9. Grammar checking, too? Please?? by CompSci101 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I know this is Slashdot and someone is bound to call me a grammar/spelling Nazi for saying this, but one of the biggest problems I have with Wikipedia is that articles that have been handled by many people tend to start losing any semblance of decent grammar and coherent thought. I hope the editors take a closer look not only at blatant vandalism, but also ensure that the articles are written well. If Wikipedia is to be taken seriously by a more mainstream audience (I love it, personally, but many academics don't) it has to maintain appearances of academic quality, one of which, definitely, is attention to grammar and flow of the articles. Hell, in some of the articles I've read, you could actually be dumber after having read it. How embarrassing would it be for a little kid to submit a report based on the things they read in Wikipedia and, not having known any better and not having a good example from something they'd consider a reputable source, have it plagued with "should of gone"s and "where their going"s? C

    --
    The Sun is proof that we can't even do fire properly.
  10. No Surprise by American+AC+in+Paris · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The bigger the population, the more sociopaths it'll have, and the more damage any one sociopath will be able to do. You either have to take steps to fight it or let the sociopaths pare the population down to the point where they're not a problem anymore.

    Personally, I prefer the former solution. Good luck, Wikipedia!

    --

    Obliteracy: Words with explosions

  11. About time by jolar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm tired of seeing vandalized pages, pages for 14 year old kids who think their ability with Flash warrants their own page on Wikipedia (I shit you not, I deleted one of these), and other stuff that just shouldn't be there. Their "talk pages" seem to make a simple issue take a long time to resolve. With a little tighter control, I think that the article quality will be a little higher. I, for one, welcome this development.

  12. From their own definition... by GillBates0 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    ...of a wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki:

    A wiki is a web application that allows users to add content, as on an Internet forum, but also allows anyone to edit the content.

    So this definitely goes against the spirit of a Wiki. That said, I think a little editorial control is probably justified, especially with mature/stable articles, which have reached a high level of quality and experience only infrequent updates.

    Rather than having such articles targeted by vandals, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have an occasional valid update go through an editorial vote. Wikipedia already does this currently with "Controversial" articles which are likely to experience Edit-wars.

    Extending the control a little probably would do Wikipedia good. The emphasis there being on "little", since overextending editorial content is likely to cause the same problems that regular encyclopedias do - biased content, inaccuracies due to limited knowledge of editors, outdated content, etc.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:From their own definition... by Xerotope · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe someone should edit that entry so they are no longer violating the spirit of a Wiki.

  13. Reminds me of Slashdot changes by bgfay · · Score: 3, Informative

    When I first started reading /. the contents were completely wide open and free. At first, when changes were made to tame the wildness of it, I was skeptical. Such changes often kill off the spirit of the site. However, the /. changes have been good for me. I read only those responses that score a 3 or better, I meta moderate, I moderate, and all of that seems to work well.

    The question I have with Wikipedia is how they will go about imposing stricter editorial control. Discipline is often a good thing, but almost as often it can be a very bad thing. I'll be watching what they come up with, commenting on it when possible, and trying to keep the site as one of the most useful on the web.

    --
    Yeah, I'm as old as my UID would suggest.
  14. Heh - "Intelegent Design" by starseeker · · Score: 4, Funny

    I have no idea if that was intentional, but either way it's sheer genius :-).

    --
    "I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
    1. Re:Heh - "Intelegent Design" by DotWarner · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, yeah. He spelled it right. See how it works?

  15. Two ideas I was very wrong about... by GPLDAN · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ebay and Wikipedia. I thought neither of them had a chance in hell to work. Ebay was an intermediary broker and I figured would go down in flames from bogus sales, and I thought Wiki would be flooded with ass clowns who wrote a lot of silly joke pages.

    I was wrong about both of them. Of the two, Wiki is an actual valuable contribution to mankind. The Wiki project, like the Gutenberg project, is about the proliferation of knowledge. It needs creative input from the whole net community in order to thrive, but as it gains status it becomes a bigger target for systematic abuse. I think this move is sound, Encyclopedia Brittanica and the World Book are bereft after the Internet. What Wiki needs is some sort of incentive system. If Gates wanted to buy some good will, he should give a billion or so to the WIki crew (despite the relationship with Google) and have the editors pay net citizens with Paypal for especially valuable work, or really excellent photos, etc. That is the next step in the evolution of the online knowledge center.

  16. Sad that people would deface the site by P3NIS_CLEAVER · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One of the fun things about Wiki is reading well-written and moderate view on some nasty subjects, like porn stars or the history of shock sites. The internet is full of 'shock' media and seeing juicy subjects dismantled into enclyopediese makes me laugh my ass off. I can't understand why people would want to hurt a 'good thing' like wikipedia.

    --
    Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!

    http://financialpetition.org/
    1. Re:Sad that people would deface the site by pogson · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I am a teacher and I wanted my students to have access to Wikipedia. The raw site on the web had lots of stuff that was inappropriate in a K-12 school so I took a snapshot from their download area and edited the whole thing. It took two weeks to screen 24 gB of images. As an indicator of quality, I had only to delete about 100 images. Some were clearly irrelevant to the articles in which they appeared and some were just too much information for young kids, That took me two weeks. I also looked for things that were a little too open-minded for school. I edited a lot of stuff about sex and drugs. That took another week. On the local copy, I have locked out local editing except for the boss, me. This has been a great resource. Because it is local, no bandwidth to the ISP is used and it is fast. It takes a few seconds to find anything and even kids as young as grade 4 have used it successfully. My snapshot was six months ago. Wikipedia has grown since then. If I take another snapshot, I will ask a committee of volunteers to help. Perhaps we could distribute the result as a kid-safe version of Wikipedia. Another option would be to fork off from Wikipedia and invite teachers/parents/responsible students to contribute articles, but this would be much slower than contributing to the real Wikipedia and taking their backups.

      --
      A problem is an opportunity http://mrpogson.com
  17. It's an interesting idea by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been thinking about this as well as I launch my own wiki. Probably the most logical thing is to have a karma like system a la slashdot (granted, perhaps more modular) tied with voting, and tie changes into articles into votes, then tie that karma to kinds of articles.

    For example, news require low karma to post (since by their nature they are fast, and you want information now). Other items, such as definitions, etc, would require higher karma, and you could even tie voting into how high karma on a specific article can be. This way, during presidential elections the community could have voted to have the definitions of "John Kerry" and "George W Bush" very high, so up to a 10.

    A person with a karma of 5 would need only 5 more "points" for the article to become accepted, while someone with a 3 would need even more. Unregistered users would be 0, so anonymous people could still register - but they'd just need more "votes".

    Granted, this is just a brainstorm, and I'm sure people smarter than myself can find holes, but it's just something I've been considering as I work on my own wiki project.

  18. What is the best way to implement this? by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have no idea how they plan on implementing this, but if it was up to me, I'd have a "stable" and "draft" version of each high-profile page. Anyone should be able to edit the draft. Periodically, the draft version could replace the stable version (perhaps a voting system could be in place, not unlike the kuro5hin submission queue).

    The importance of a page (to decide if a locked "stable" page is necessary) could be determined automatically either by number of hits, or computing the pagerank of each page given the link graph of the whole wiki.

    1. Re:What is the best way to implement this? by interiot · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Mod Up!

      You HAVE to have a way of getting new data into Wikipedia pages. Even long-ago historical events need to be updated when new evidence or new analysis brings new facts to light. History is never cemented. And Wikipedia has proven remarkably capable of keeping up-to-date with new events.

      But yes, Wikipedia editing is sometimes like making sausage. No matter how good it tastes in the end, the intermediate steps aren't always good looking. You need to simultaneously hide this sausage-making from the casual user (by making the "stable" page be the default one to appear), while also making it not too difficult for people to contribute to the sausage-making process (by making the "draft" page only a single click away).

    2. Re:What is the best way to implement this? by reynhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Better yet, instead of requiring a new manual process..

      Keep the current system, but give each article an "update waiting period", based on the article's recent volatility. An article that never gets changed might be 24 hours. An active one might be 30 minutes. A very active one might be 5 minutes.

      Whenever an article is modified, the new version doesn't become the "current" version until the waiting period has passed. The article police will have a window in which to fix things, and the vandalism incentive (instant gratification) will go way down.

      A simple version of this idea (all articles have the same update waiting period) could be implemented very quickly. A more complex version (period based on volatility) might not even add any value. Either way, no additional processes or people or work would be required, and the problem would be largely solved.

  19. Well, so much for Wikipedia by grungebox · · Score: 2

    How does having a "commision" who oversees when content is "undisputed" work? Do they rely on an expert in a subject area? If so, isn't that pretty much like most encyclopedias such as, say, the Britannica? You know, the ones /.ers refer to as antiquated or obsolete relative to Wikipedia? I think they should just make people log in to edit entries, so anyone can still edit stuff, they just need to make an account (i.e., give enough of a damn to create an account), and let it be. If you get pics of Palpatine as Pope for a few minutes then so be it, Jedi. Price you pay for a democratic info source, that's what I say.

  20. Rate of vandalism is up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am a long time contributor and see that just the last year the number of vandalisms have increased sharply. Just pick any article, check the history and look for commenstr like "reverting vandalism" or just "rv" for short.

    Moreover, and to me more serious, are the deletionists, whose agenta is to cull all they can on a darwinian principle. This annoys me in particular since they succeeded in wiping one of my articles. First attempt that it was "fan work" I managed to hold off, anohter attempt was made and I stopped that too. Then someone said it should be merged. So they agreed (quickly voted on), set up a redirect and did not merge. In effect the deletionists won the day, the article gone and I lost.

    The issue is process. There is no good process (what passes for process has too many holes to qualify, as I illustrated above) and therefore no QA is possible.

    Baselining is not available, so what once was a featured article can be hacked apart and lowered in quality, unless the deletionists get there first. Locating the once featured article is hard.

    I believe the increased visibility and popularity has made the vandals creep out and attack.

  21. Oh, thanks a lot! by aftk2 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why couldn't they have done this several months ago, before my boss started looking closely at Wikipedia, and their method of allowing anyone - even users not logged into specific user accounts - to edit a given page? It's taken a bit of effort and time to reengineer our CMS to do the same, should someone desire the option.

    Sigh. I fully expect to walk into work on Monday and see "One-button page locking" as the next feature to implement.

    --
    concrete5: a cms made for marketing, but strong enough for geeks.
  22. No, but asshats have by alvinrod · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You know how the story goes: "A few rotten apples spoil the bunch."

    Wikipedia is one of the most awesome things ever to come out of the depths of the internet. It provides up to date, accurate content from a variety of different sources and view points that is subject to the collective scrutiny of the community that maintains it.

    It's something like democracy in that everyone has an active hand in it which inspires people to do their best because the wikipedia is as much theirs as anyone else's.

    Of course there are always going to be asshats, internet trolls, and other fuckwads who spoil a good thing be being dicks. As with any society, organization, or project that is open and free in nature, there exists the possibility that someone can easily ruin it for everyone.

    When this happens the common reaction is to take away some of that freedom in order to maintain what has been created. This is very similar to the US Patriot Act which is theoretically designed to protect the United States be limiting individual freedoms for the greater good. Whether you agree with the approach or not is moot.

    Perhaps the best way to handle something so democratic as wikipedia is to have changed content be reviewed by several people who can reject or approve the changes before they go through. Another system akin to the /. moderation system would to give editors who do a good job at wikipedia more control over what they can change and how much they can change it. This means that the best editors will be able to quickly change content if necessary and provide new entries as necessary while preventing some jerk with too much time on his/her hands from doing a lot of damage.

    1. Re:No, but asshats have by jafac · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who moderates the moderators?

      And what's to stop groups like "Focus on the Family" from staging an Astroturf campaign to slant certain articles their way.

      For example, FoF routinely sends out form-emails to people on their email list (members, freinds of members, etc.) - and instructs the members to email them back to Newspaper editorial pages nationwide. One result of this type of situation was that the FCC was innundated with tens of millions of emails after the Janet Jackson Wardrobe Malfunction, when in fact, the opinion of this onslaught of email represented fewer than 1% of the US population - it was magnified by FoF's email campaign.

      Similar groups on either side of the political fence could mount an astroturf "attack" on Wikipedia. Some of these groups are astoundingly well-funded. The Heritage Foundation, The Cato Institute, The Federalist Society, even MoveOn.org. The newsmedia has already been polarized by such groups, through pressure tactics, and through stacking corporate boardrooms with members of these groups, dictating opinion down through the ranks of these newsmedia organizations.

      I don't know if there's a good way to combat these kinds of things. But the same situation you see on FoxNews, CNN, Washington Times, or Wall Street Journal - eventually these groups are going to catch on to the fact that Wikipedia is an important source of information that needs to be "controlled" by them. If they can't do it with money, they'll do it with numbers. And if the founders maintain editorial control anyway, they'll attempt to destroy it's credibility by using their newsmedia outlets to claim that Wikipedia is biased.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    2. Re:No, but asshats have by maxpublic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Another system akin to the /. moderation system would to give editors who do a good job at wikipedia more control over what they can change and how much they can change it.

      That's actually a good idea. An editor with a high rating could roll back an entry to erase vandalism, then lock that entry for, say, a week. Most trolls don't have much of an attention span, so after a week (or several weeks of the same thing running) they'd probably wander off to find new people to make miserable.

      Others who wanted to modify the page could be informed that editor X locked it until date Y due to vandalism. The rational among us would approve of the lock and come back in a week to try again; no harm done.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  23. My freedoms end where another's begins. by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We want total freedom from censorship and total creative control!
    We want to be protected from malicious actions of both others and ourselves!


    Defacing of informative wiki content by trolls is a form of censorship, where the troll objects to clear, informative content.

    P.S. To anyone about to reply "only guvments censor!1!": I linked to a dictionary, go read it.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  24. I could prefer stable to frozen by cgrand · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would prefer see a banner reading 'You're seeing the stable revision of this article. Click here to access the draft for the next stable revision (beware of vandalism).'. It's like moving a STABLE tag in a revision control system.

  25. Don't worry, guys by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 5, Funny

    I decided I didn't like this new policy, so I went to WikiPedia and rewrote it.

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
  26. delay mechanism by chronos2266 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They should have a period of delay between the edited version of a page and when the page is actually published. This gives the edits some time for review before they 'go live'. It isn't perfect but with that many eyes it should keep down on new users from being turned off because they came to the site the second it has been vandalized.

  27. Re:Wondering the same... by GlassUser · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And you'd also have bad information that you thought was right. Wikipedia is a fundamentally flawed idea. It simply can't work in the real world.

    I think wikipedia works well, you just have the wrong idea of it. It is by no means a source I'd trust for anything important. It is, however, a source I'd use to get a vague possible idea of a topic, and use as a starting point to find reliable information from authoritative sources.

  28. I'd say that was a mistake by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 2, Insightful
    when you see Emperor Palpatine in the spot where Pope Benedict's picture is supposed to be, Wikipedia loses credibility.
    People need to learn to cope with variable credibility. They need to learn to apply their minds to stuff like edit histories and discussion pages. The anointing of "definitive" content is all of hubristic, limiting, and an unhelpful feather-bed for lazy thinkers. TANSTAAFL.

    (Yes, I know this is ironic in context.)
    1. Re:I'd say that was a mistake by pomo+monster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd like to think I know how to cope with variable credibility, but I'd really just rather not have to waste time digging through edit histories and discussion pages to figure out whose revision comes closest to the "truth" I'm after. Give me a source I already know and trust to be reliable, and I'll even be willing to pay you for the time I save.

  29. Then base stable on a time period by grahamsz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When an article goes unedited for maybe 4 hours it automatically becomes stable.

    That way wikipedians can always view the draft version, but it's highly unlikely that vandalism will stay around long enough to be stablized.

    People coming in from google or such like will automatically get the stable version unless they deliberately choose draft.

    1. Re:Then base stable on a time period by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 2, Insightful
      When an article goes unedited for maybe 4 hours it automatically becomes stable.

      Not a bad idea, but maybe it could be based on page views instead of time. If a draft has been read a certain number of times without a modification, it could be moved to stable. Four hours may be too short in the early morning, or too long for current events.

      Either way, there's a significant danger of a troll getting their edit into the stable version, then editing the draft frequently enough to prevent it from stablizing, thus preventing other users from fixing the edit. For that reason, I prefer a voting process. To make it resilient against targetted trolling, perhaps the articles each user can vote on should be selected at random, much like metamoderation here on slashdot.

  30. Re:Wondering the same... by chris_mahan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Eh, when you read something in the media or in an encyclopedia in paper or something in a library, how do you know it's correct?

    Let's say you are doing research on a two-seater variant of the f-16 foghter aircraft, and the "paper encyclopedia" puts the range at 2400km, and wikipedia puts the range at 2550km, who would you trust?

    Now, if you came to the knowledge that the article on the trainer variant in question was edited by Captain John Miller, USAF, at the Point Ueneme Air Force base, the only base in the United States using this particular variant, and that he was the man in charge of all pilot training, who would you believe then, the "paper encyclopedia" printed in Taiwan in 2003, or Wikipedia?

    Now, let's say that John Miller posted as JonM at 3 am, you might not know that he's the USAF trainer, but you might ask him how he knows, and he might tell you to call him at the base during his office hours. Then you might know. Try calling the Encyclopedia.

    Assuming that information is correct is always asking for trouble, regardless of where the infomration comes from. What wikipedia allows you to do is more easily contact the authors to validate or invalidate, as the case may be, the factual nature of the information.

    --

    "Piter, too, is dead."

  31. Re:Wikipedia Needs Fakipedia by otisaardvark · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's been done, welcome to Uncyclopedia, and no, it doesn't keep trolls away from Wikipedia in the slightest, but is surprisingly comprehensive and always good for a chuckle.

  32. You don't understand how wikipedia works by hackwrench · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It has full regression capabilities. If a page changes, people can request email notification. They can compare the current state of the article to quite a few previous ones, and view only the differences, and then select any previous version to revert back to.

  33. Dilemma? What dilemma?! by Robotron23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The idea that theres a huge dilemma facing practically everyone involved in wikipedia is somewhat of an exagurration. The destructive trolls, casual users, casual editors and the mods and admins of wikipedia itself.

    In the past year, the growth of English language articles has been approximately exponential, the user (and especially administrator) growth will soon be outstripped. Over 50,000 new articles have been created in the past two months - and you can bet these new articles will be of obscurer and obscurer content. However an introduction of "stable" fixed pages will counter this - a single person accomplished in study of the Dark Ages could single-handedly create a couple of articles and request a stablization of said pages.

    Wikipedia is self advertised free encyclopedia. This is evidenced by the extensive arguments on the talk pages. How can one prevent trolls and malicious users from screwing up wikis while allowing them to be constantly improved upon? Its a tough problem that only a complex system could fix.

    If one looks at all the major articles, they seem pretty much complete. Eg. The article on marijuana is practically perfect and all encompassing. It could be rendered "stable". But what of its legality? Thoughtful editors have even created a "legal issues" page that can be edited once marijuana is legalized (while only a very minor mention is required on the stable page - easily obtained upon request to an admin). This sort of catagorizing could help more and more pages become "stable", thus preventing any trolls.

    As somebody who has created about 10 articles, I've only once ran into a troll. A grammar troll specifically, who took a joy in subtly entering some typos in the article for "Earth 2160" a soon-to-be-released Polish game. I corrected his edit and all was well after that. Controversial topics (Ie. George W. Bush, War in Iraq, Michael Moore) will have a greatly increased amount of trolls, but reversals occur within minutes, even seconds, the editors have all this under control.

    Stable pages are a fine idea, while sacrificing a minimal amount of freedom. Most minor, obscure pages should be rendered stable immediately, and some major pages too.

    The idea of trolls overrunning wikipedia is invalid. I'd wager that the majority of trolls have already impacted the site (a lot of trolls are quite net savvy, and would be aware of wikipedia by now), though wikipedia's popularity is skyrocketing, the vast majority of new users will be there to help/use rather than to hinder - in the long run it seems.

    Wikipedia is very close to becoming the finest encyclopedia in the world. Its much better than a lot of its counterparts already, and as time passes, the amount of new articles will inevitably stabilize. By 2008 the encyclopedia should have attained near-perfect status in all but the current events (which is a constant process obviously), and should be renowned everywhere for its content.

  34. Re:Wondering the same... by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It is, however, a source I'd use to get a vague possible idea of a topic, and use as a starting point to find reliable information from authoritative sources.

    Which is, of course, the point of an encyclopedia.

    --
    But then again, I could be wrong.
  35. Re:all men shouting and killing and revelling in j by pogson · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I kept the cut images just long enough to count them and to detect duplicates and thumbs/full size. I also had to hunt down links in the Wikipedia database, so I needed the filenames for a while. This allowed me to check the relevance to the article. I culled the images in bulk with an "image viewer" that permitted displaying about twenty pix at a time and cut and pasted them to the garbage directory.

    I live in Canada which is in the Americas.

    I see no reason a fifth-grader should find an article on bondage/sado-masochism when enquiring about sex or reproduction. While adults may play whatever games they wish without hurting anyone, we attempt to teach youngsters to respect each other and bondage is likely contrary to our criminal code so is way beyond community standards here. If it were just for high-school and there was no legal issue, I might have left such stuff in. Youngsters need information, but just the basics. That is what I meant by "too open-minded". I am pretty open-minded, but I work in small communities in publicly funded schools and have to consider paedagogical value and community standards. Any teacher or student who needs such material can find it on their own without me providing it.

    --
    A problem is an opportunity http://mrpogson.com
  36. Re:Idealism meets reality by timster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Congratulations on your successful vandalism of a resource that people were trying to use. That certainly proves your point about the resource being without value.

    The purpose of Wikipedia is not to be a repository of tremendously correct facts. That's not the purpose of a regular encyclopedia, either. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide a competent general introduction to a wide variety of topics, and pointers to further information. At this Wikipedia excels.

    Many people find Wikipedia a useful resource, so the argument that it is inherently useless is pointless. To vandalise that resource, just to prove your point, is despicable.

    --
    I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
  37. The value of Wikipedia by typical · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wikipedia does one amazing thing that Google + random web searches can't start to compete with.

    Wikipedia provides overviews of things.

    The problem is that when I want information about, say, USB 2.0, the Web *does* provide just about everything I might want (an improvement over writing letters to people requesting documents, for certain). However, I may have no idea what to request.

    A Wikipedia article gives me a brief overview that is useful to a human, and provides me with enough information that I know where to go for further, detailed information.

    It might take a long time to obtain this information normally, but Wikipedia allows me to get ahold of it almost instantly.

    And one other point -- while I agree that to a security theorist, Wikipedia is horribly insecure, and can suffer many attacks, it is also inarguably *not* falling apart. So, clearly there are some important factors that we have not taken into consideration, like the fact that people may just like Wikipedia a lot.

    I've mused many a time on whether a Wiki might be a good way to bootstrap an encyclopedia, but not the best once there is valuable information finished and present that one must simply keep from being vandalized. So an unmodified wiki approach might make sense for the early days of Wikipedia, but some sort of trust system might make more sense later on.

    Also, for people who disagree with this policy change, remember that you can always "fork" Wikipedia.

    If we can live with a bit more time to update things, there might be an "unstable Wikipedia" and a "stable Wikipedia", where editors have approved changes and dropped them into the stable release. [shrug] lots of possibilities. All I know is that Wikipedia is a great sign of the same fundamental value that drives open source -- that it is so phenomenally inexpensive to produce something that can then provide good for so many people that traditional market economics may not do a good job of serving us any more in an information age.

    --
    Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
  38. Re:Wondering the same... by Abreu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You know this "someone" and havent done anything to denounce it or correct it?

    Its you, right? You vandal!

    --
    No sig for the moment.
  39. Re:Wondering the same... by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think wikipedia works well, you just have the wrong idea of it. It is by no means a source I'd trust for anything important. It is, however, a source I'd use to get a vague possible idea of a topic, and use as a starting point to find reliable information from authoritative sources.

    Exactly! This holds true for normal encyclopedias as well though. You should never use tertiary sources for any sort of good research.

  40. What I think of Wikipedia and the future of wikis by wikinerd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Wikipedia is based on the old 18th century encyclopedia concept, but this isn't effective in the digital era of the Internet. Many Wikipedia articles are intentionally written for the common people, not containing specialist scientific or rare information you can find in specialist books. For example, Wikipedia's article on quadratic classifiers is a stub written in April (after I raised this issue on their mailing list in February), and their article on software agents, although much improved since I pointed that it was as short as a kid's poem some months before, is still inadequate if you consider that some people study agents for years in universities. Now, what will happen if we go there and improve these articles so much that they contain all the relevant information you can find in computer science and mathematics books, including detailed examples and HOW-TOs, to the extent that these articles become 300-page books? They will remove that extra "unencyclopedic" and "specialist" knowledge, since they believe it should not be part of an encyclopedia. They may move the information to their other wikiprojects, such as Wikibooks. That's bad, because some information will inevitably be duplicated, and duplication leads to ommisions and errors (someone may fix something in Wikibooks, but the fix won't show up in a Wikipedia article which may contain the same information). They believe in old monolithic ideas and they still think in terms of "books", "articles", "pages", something they write and the reader reads in the same monolithic form. They must proceed and understand what the future holds for wikis and the Web, and they must adapt to that future.

    The future lies in personalised information. You can see that it's coming if you notice the rise of RSS and you understand why it's so trendy now: People want to control the information they consume. The don't want to read an HTML page which may contain markup and CSS errors, be incompatible with their browser, full of flashy f*cking irrelevant advertisements and whatnot. They prefer RSS which provides an easy-to-parse XML representation of the information they want. Similarily, people use free/libre open-source software because they want to have control over their PCs and their lives, they don't want their software to spy on them nor to control what they can do with their computer with evil technologies like Trusted Computing and stupid DRM. People want freedom and choice. Books and articles are like closed-source software: You cannot control with fine granularity what you want to read. You have a choice between different authors, but that's all, and this isn't true freedom. What if we had a magic piece of paper which could erase the words and phrases we dislike? We could then read exactly what we want to read, from any author. How many times have you bought a 500-page book only to find out later than 75% of its text is unnecessary pseudo-literary decoration? Some people have lots of time and like to read anything they can, others want to invest their time in reading only the absolutely necessary text which contains the information they urgently need. We need a way to have total control over the information that enters our brain, or else we are at the mercy of the author.

    In wikis, we need a wiki that can build personalised wiki-articles based on our preferences, getting data and information from a flexible database. This is a multi-step process. We must first create a wiki database which contains all the data we can document, if possible a perfect copy of our brains I would say, then we must develop software to tag its contents and let the user to retrieve the information in any way they like, and if we use a good design there is no need to duplicate any data.

    Special software needs to be developed in order to materialise my vision. This software should be based on the concepts of "co

  41. Re:Wondering the same... by Zeinfeld · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I haven't heard much of flawed data in highly esteemed printed encyclopedia (though I'm quite sure there must be some mistakes in such media as well).

    There are plenty of historical examples of ridiculous content, especially in Britannica which was originally written to glorify the British monarch and all his dominons...

    The main problem with wiki is that there are contentious issues where the system does break down. But even there the content tends to be rather more useful than you would get in Britannica where articles are much more likely to only give one side of the argument.

    I don't like the idea of freezing contentious content. Earlier today I was reading the Robert Novak page and found that someone had already updated it to describe the hissy-fit walkout he threw. That is good and something you cannot get from any other source. Some pages are locked for obviously partisan reasons.

    I think that what they need to do is to introduce time delays for pages that are mega-contenious. So graffiti can be removed before it makes it to the main display page.

    --
    Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
    Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
  42. Wikipedia is a cabal by br00tus · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Wikipedia divides itself up into eight master categories. Two of these are mathematics and science - topics it handles well. There is cooperation, deference to expertise and those categories are usually pretty good. Then on the other end of the spectrum you have categories like history and society. Those categories it does not handle well at all - there is no cooperation, and unending arguments break out for nationalist reasons (see Gdansk or Palestine) or left vs. right reasons (see Ken Mehlman), or both.

    Wikipedia's is owned by a millionaire who is a big fan of Ayn Rand, Ludwig von Mises and so forth. This should begin to give you an idea of where it's head is at. He has appointed people to positions of power like admin, bureaucrat, arbitrator, and mediator, more often of a like mind then not. One of these people is part of the far-right Moonie cult.

    Then we have the natural bias of an English-speaking audience of people mostly from England and its former and current colonies (the US, Canada, Ireland, Australia etc.) On top of this, the editors tend to be male, white, professional and whatnot. That this bias exists is recognized at a high level. But what is done about it? Most editors who are of more of a say world-view than US/UK-centric view, left than right and so forth are persecuted. Most left-wing admins have been persecuted - Secretlondon (sent a nasty e-mail by Jimbo Wales), 172, and Everyking. There are a few more who are more moderate, some have privately told me more recently that Wikipedia is going bonkers in this respect, that the inmates are taking over the asylum.

    I believe wikis can survive only with cooperation. A wiki, like Slashdot, can survive mostly good users and a few vandals. But when say 30% of Wikipedia is left-wing, with 70% being right-wing or what in the US would be called centrist, you have a problem that is not going away. It just gets worse, really.

    My prediction is that since wikis need cooperation, the controversial categories (history, society, life) will break off into separate wikis - right-leaning ones like Wikinfo and left-leaning ones like Dkosopedia or the even further left Red Wiki.

    This is inevitable. The edit wars over the Israel/Palestine pages mimics the actual war going on. The arbitrators are just becoming more and more overburdened over time, and these sections are becoming more and more chaotic and sectarian. On the other hand, articles about scientific and mathematic concepts like quantum mechanics are doing just fine. I think eventually, Wikipedia itself will see the wisdom of the Kahanists and jihadis leaving for their own respective wikis. It will be better for everyone.

  43. Wikipedia announces... by jwales · · Score: 4, Informative

    Wikipedia hereby formally announces tighter editorial controls on Reuters and Slashdot... ;-)

    I spoke in English to many journalists yesterday and the day before (90 journalists registered to cover Wikimania). I spoke to one journalist about our longstanding discussions of how to create a "stable version" or "Wikipedia 1.0". This would not involve substantial changes to how we do our usual work, but rather a new process for identifying our best work.

    I spoke in English, and this was translate to German. Then the German was translated back to English, and then translated again into the Slashdot story.

    There was no "announcement". We are constantly reviewing our policies and looking for ways to improve, but we have not "announced" anything. We don't even really work that way... if you know how Wikipedia works, it's through a long process of community discussion and consensus building, not through a process of top-down announcements.

    --
    Wikia
  44. Misunderstanding by chato · · Score: 2, Informative
    Two things are getting confused:
    1. A version of an article can be validated through the article validation feature (now in beta stage). This validation is a voting by users on several topics, including how neutral, complete, accurate, etc. an article is (see proposal for the interface). This is useful, for instance, for burning certain versions of articles of the Wikipedia into a CDROM, to be used where internet access is expensive or nonexistent.
    2. There are measures for protecting a page, and it has been done before. Vandalism has been always kept to a much lower level than alarmists think. Please see replies to common objection
    Most important of all, the Wikimania Conference is an ongoing event: (from the article) "Es gibt mehrere Möglichkeiten, die wir hier in Frankfurt besprechen": "There are several possibilities, that we are discussing in Frankfurt". I think the outcome will continue in the way of protecting some pages when it is estrictly necessary and validating some versions of the articles. It will never be something limiting the freedom for anyone to edit pages, which is at the core of Wikipedia's success, and very deeply established in the community of Wikipedians.