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The Mathematics of a Trip to Mars?

hakonhaugnes wonders: "Since trips to Mars seems commonplace (NASA has sent one every 26 months), I thought it made sense to try to understand how the interplanetary trajectory is calculated. NASA's page is deploringly void of intricate details. I found this excellent page, but it still left me feeling that I was missing something. Surely the calculus must go beyond two bodies (mars/earth)? (It seems there are commercial MATLAB scripts available but at $150 it went beyond the defensible to satisfy my curiosity). Are there any curious Slashdot readers with the usual great insight into how to calculate a trip to Mars?"

88 of 373 comments (clear)

  1. Extemely Complex Calculations by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 4, Funny

    What with all the epicycles and all;-)

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    1. Re:Extemely Complex Calculations by squidfood · · Score: 3, Funny
      What with all the epicycles and all;-)

      You'd think it was rocket science.

    2. Re:Extemely Complex Calculations by Keebler71 · · Score: 3, Funny
      Well, since we are starting off with a joke...

      How do you know if an astrodynamicist is an extrovert?

      He looks at your feet when he talks to you!

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    3. Re:Extemely Complex Calculations by tbischel · · Score: 3, Funny

      Whats so hard about rocket science?
      Pointy end goes up

  2. Why would you expect us to? by aklix · · Score: 4, Funny

    I see more budget cuts have caused NASA to outsource to the open-source

  3. Hmmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Try Google maps.

    1. Re:Hmmm. by prell · · Score: 2, Funny

      There may be a day when this is no longer funny! ;-)

    2. Re:Hmmm. by KiloByte · · Score: 2

      No longer funny? Try the closest zoom on that page then.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
  4. method... by timtwobuck · · Score: 2, Funny

    (G*M1*M2) / R^2

    Earth(+moon), Mars, Sun...I think that will get you there, as long as you dodge the moon on your way out

    1. Re:method... by FLAGGR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Um, okay, great. Gravity from lets say Jupiter stops at the asteriod belt right? Every thing can make a tiny difference. Also not the poster is asking how to plot a course, and you're giving the equation to calculate the newtonian gravity between two objects. Related, yes. An answer, no. Knowing how many newtons of force your getting from all these bodies doesn't solve the problem. You're fired.

    2. Re:method... by FLAGGR · · Score: 3, Funny

      You want a formula? A formula for the optimal flight path to Mars? Here's one:

      y = (o*u) / (ar^e + an - (i*(d-i)+(o-t)))

      Keep dreaming. It's a complicated thing. You have to factor in the gravity of all the planets, moons, other large bodies and the ship itself. You have to make sure the thing doesn't crash into any asteriods, and it's going to have to make course corrections en route, to avoid things and to stay on track. Maybe the best route is to loop around a planet, and get a speed boost from its gravity. Maybe there isn't enough fuel to do it the fastest way, maybe the timeframe for one route is too small, etc etc etc.

      Sorry to break it to you, but there isn't an equation that spits on a directional vector for you to shoot your rocket at. If you want to play pretend, download some solar system simulator, I'd assume at least one of them has some dinky flight planner thingy.

    3. Re:method... by superpulpsicle · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's the problem. There is no formula that calculates where the foam comes off by itself. Oh that X factor.

    4. Re:method... by B3ryllium · · Score: 2, Funny

      "there isn't an equation that spits on a directional vector"

      I think it would be pretty damn difficult to hit a directional vector with a wad of spit.

  5. Numerical integration by mattjb0010 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Are there any curious Slashdot readers with the usual great insight into how to calculate a trip to Mars?

    Come on, this ain't rocket science, people. Oh, wait...

    1. Re:Numerical integration by ichin4 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I asked a rocket scientist what he said to indicate that something isn't so difficult. He said: I say, "this isn't nuclear physics."

      I asked a nuclear physicist what he said to incicate that something isn't so difficult. He said: I say, "this isn't brain surgery."

      I asked a brain surgeon what he said to indicate that something isn't so difficult. He said: I say, "this isn't rocket science."

  6. What about by SamAdam3d · · Score: 3, Funny

    having the entire Earth jump at the same time?

    I am sure that can get you to Mars. ;)

    --
    I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. - Douglas Adams
    1. Re:What about by fossa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No change it orbit of the center of mass of the earth-jumpers system, sure. But the earth itself would most certainly change its orbit. Of course, the earth's gravity would soon pull the jumpers back just as the jumpers' gravity would pull the earth back, and the earth's orbit would return to its initial orbit.

    2. Re:What about by OwnedByTwoCats · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I remember doing the calculation in College. The really amazing thing is that you could fit all four billion people, each one having a square meter for a chair, in an area only 64 kilometers on a side. With the population increase since then, we're up to a square 77.5 km on a side.

      Bonus question: calculate the length of the queue for the bathrooms.

      Anyway, making a bunch of assumptions (like everyone jumps a half meter high, and weighs 75 Kg) the earth's recoil is a tenth of the diameter of a proton.

  7. The Slashdot "common" by MosesJones · · Score: 3, Funny


    Since trips to Mars seems commonplace (NASA has sent one every 26 months)

    Was I the only one to think... Slashdot... commonplace... once every 2 years....

    "Having Sex is commonplace for me"... the new Slashdot definition of commonplace.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:The Slashdot "common" by banuk · · Score: 2, Funny

      Was I the only one to think... Slashdot... commonplace... once every 2 years....

      only if you're talking dupes and its every 2 hrs

    2. Re:The Slashdot "common" by Average_Joe_Sixpack · · Score: 2, Funny

      Was I the only one to think... Slashdot... commonplace... once every 2 years....

      "Having Sex is commonplace for me"... the new Slashdot definition of commonplace.

       
      Lucky bastard! My sex life can't even be measured in earth time.

    3. Re:The Slashdot "common" by albeit+unknown · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ob Comic Book Guy

      "Inspired by the most logical race in the universe, the Vulcans, breeding will be permitted once every 7 years. For many of you, this will mean much less breeding. For me, much, much more."

    4. Re:The Slashdot "common" by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 4, Informative

      The orbital mechanics that the Hohlmann transfer to Mars takes advantage of allow a "cheap" (low-energy) shot at Mars about every 2 years.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  8. easy by colton+cummings · · Score: 4, Funny

    Point it in the general direction, and launch.

    It's like a message in a bottle, but so much cooler.

    --
    XaNk: now I remember why I hated the girls in high school
    XaNk: because none of them would talk to me
  9. Simplifying interplanetary control software by Debian+Troll's+Best · · Score: 3, Funny
    While the actually hardware behind a successful Mars shot is undeniably critical, a similar amount of attention should be paid to human interface factors back at mission control. Mission controllers work long shifts, often without adequate sleep or food, and small mistakes on the ground can be fatal to the brave astronauts travelling through space, or walking on the surface of the Mars. The computer science community has conducted considerable work on human interfaces, but in my mind there is one which stands out above all others as an intuitive, easily understood and easy to use mission control interface: Debian's apt-get.

    Ok ok...I understand some of you will be rolling your eyes at this stage, struggling to understand how on earth a piece of command line software designed for the installation and maintenance of Debian packages could even be remotely applicable to designing a robust mission control interface for missions to the Mars. I will explain. Basically, think of the Earth as a large Debian mirror, equipped with many astronaut 'files'. Imagine the space ship as a .deb package, safely protecting all the astronauts from the harsh vacuum of space. The Mars (or Mars...this solution is cross-platform after all) is your local host. The Sun is...well...that creaky old Sun Ultra 5 from yesterday's OSnews article that no one wants to go close to lest they get burned or flamed by Sun zealots. OK...now how does the system work?

    Basically, a mission controller wants to 'install' a 'package' of astronauts from the Earth 'mirror' onto the Mars 'host'. It's 5am, the mission controller hasn't slept for 3 days, and every command sent from Houston is critical. Enter apt-get. The initial launch command would be something like:

    apt-get install astronauts

    Great! The launch vehicle is on its way! Since the 'link' between the 'mirror' and the 'host' is quite slow (imagine an old school 9600 baud leased line), the 'package' 'download' may take a few days to complete. This is where the mission control staff go to work on getting their Gentoo boxes compiling KDE. When the 'package' is 'downloaded', it's important to check that no astronauts were hurt along the way. The mission controller enters the following command:

    apt-get check

    This wil check for 'broken dependencies'. So far, so good! The '.deb package' will now successfully 'install' onto the 'host', meaning the astronauts can land on the Mars, and perform their critical experiments. However, all good things must come to and end, and the 'package' will need to be removed from the host. Mission control to the rescue.

    apt-get remove astronauts

    Excellent! Tom Hanks, Gary Sinese and that other guy are now on their way home. Again, this is a slow link, so our 'host' may take a few days to remove it from it's 'hard disk'. Once the capsule has landed back on Earth, it will be ready for the next group of astronauts to make their journey. But no-one would want to spend 10 days locked up in a small space filled with cast-off cans of Jolt Cola and empty Penguin Mint containers. The capsule will need to be tidied up! Mission control enters one last command to complete the mission:

    apt-get autoclean

    Done! Another successful Mars shot. Mission control is a breeze with the new apt-get mission control system. No more complicated GUIs, voice recognition or toggle switches. apt-get to infinity and beyond!

    1. Re:Simplifying interplanetary control software by nherm · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now that sarge went stable, we can terraform Mars!!!

      apt-get moo

      Using a "while true; do ... done", Mars will get all those greenhouse emissions we need to raise its temperature.

      Funny stuff.

  10. Security and Open and Available Software by m11533 · · Score: 4, Informative

    There has been a very long tradition of making source code developed by Government projects available to the general computing public. This is the true "public domain" software that has existed since the beginning of computing. I believe many bits of code from NASA made it into the public domain over the years.

    I would bet that the information you desire is now considered to be highly classified and thus not available. You could produce trajectory information for ballistic missiles and who knows how it might be mis-construed as useful to those "terrorists" of whom the US is so fearful these days.

    Besides... you might find a units of measure error or two if you got to see this code.

  11. Much more than a 2-body problem ... by IntelliTubbie · · Score: 5, Informative

    Several of the people I work with in Caltech's Control and Dynamical Systems department work on celestial mechanics and calculating space flight trajectories -- and I can assure you, it's some pretty complicated stuff, involving invariant manifolds and (IIRC) patching together different three-body systems. There's a good popular article about this in Science News, and you can find more info (in as much detail as you'd like!) on Shane Ross' homepage.

    Cheers,
    IT

    --

    Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.

    1. Re:Much more than a 2-body problem ... by interiot · · Score: 3, Informative
      Does NASA release this kind of data?
      Yes.

      SPICE-formated files are used for the MRO. Some SPICE kernels are/will be available here.

  12. Re:Trip to mars dont seem that "simple" by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

    Easier: Orbiter.

    I once worked on a more complex version (after writing a simpler version), but got distracted to other projects somewhere between the finished code to implement Kirchoff's laws for the electrical system and the unfinished code to calculate the volume and mass of a fuel tank.

    --
    Kneel Before Christ!
  13. JPL has a good intro by cunniff · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was an intern at JPL a couple of decades ago, and they always started with a "porkchop plot" (or "butterfly plot") of possible trajectories and their energy requirements. Here is a webpage that documents that to some extent:

    http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/porkchop All.html

    1. Re:JPL has a good intro by Keebler71 · · Score: 5, Informative
      I did some graduate research/internship at JPL. They still use the porkchop plots which are published in volumes spanning the next decade or two. The "bible" at JPL (as far as I could tell) was The Interplanetary Mission Design Handbook Vol 1, Part 2. This is the document that I carry around with me to work or on travel if I think I am going to do a little research on the side (unfortunately my paying job has nothing to do with astrodynamics.) It covers pretty much all of the relevant equations for the various phases of an interplanetary mission (launch, transfer, arrival) as well as some other stuff. This is 35 pages of raw meat - little explanation, no derivations. Just the facts. I think the actual pork chop plots are in either other volumes or other parts of this volume (my paper copy had them right after this section).

      Anyway, without at least some education in orbital mechanics/astrodynamics, the above ref will probably be a little overwhelming. To get up to speed I recommend the following:

      • Fundamentals of Astrodynamics by Bate, Mueller & While. Undergrad text, should be no problem if you have had calculus.
      • Fundamentals of Astrodynamics and Applications by Vallado. (This is usually referred to as "Vallado" - in fact I never even knew its title until I just looked it up!) This one is much more in-depth and is certainly found on the desk of anyone who does research in this field. Most of the stuff from the JPL handbook is in here, plus lots and lots of other stuff
      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    2. Re:JPL has a good intro by orac2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      What you're describing is called a 'cycler', and Buzz Aldrin, among others, has been kicking the idea along for years, see here.

      --
      "Just once, I'd like to meet an alien menace that wasn't immune to bullets." -- The Brigadier, Dr. Who
  14. Simple Newtonian by RatPh!nk · · Score: 4, Informative

    I recently had a NASA guy come to speak to my research group at my medical school in Houston. We were talking about the long term effect of micro-gravity on human physiology (round trip to Mars). Anyway he told us that most of the mathematical calculations that the Space Flight Center here in Houston use are the "simple" Newtonian laws of motion. He claimed they were suitable for calculating trajectories to the Moon, Mars, etc...

    --
    Argh. The laws of science be a harsh mistress.
    1. Re:Simple Newtonian by sploxx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Anyway he told us that most of the mathematical calculations that the Space Flight Center here in Houston use are the "simple" Newtonian laws of motion.
      Sure. To use Einstein's general relativity would be overkill as the changes are too small.

      But Newtons laws can get arbitrarily complex with the number of bodies that go into the equation.

      One is newton's axiom.
      Two is still easy and taught in school. Kepler ellipses etc. Together with the rocket equation (also only newton), it gives everything needed to go to earth orbit.

      But.. three is not analytically solvable. From there, numerics takes over and this is still a very active field of research, still far from perfect. But they're surely good enough :-)

    2. Re:Simple Newtonian by aidan+folkes · · Score: 4, Funny
      But.. three is not analytically solvable. From there, numerics takes over and this is still a very active field of research, still far from perfect. But they're surely good enough :-)

      As long as you don't get your units mixed up. :-)

    3. Re:Simple Newtonian by LabRat · · Score: 2, Informative

      In theory yeah...but relativity really only comes into play at very high velocities (think particle accelerators) or in the presence of very strong gravity fields (like one would experience inside Mercury's orbit). There is virtually zero pay-off for using relativistic modeling for a mission to mars, though it might prove useful for a probe destined to orbit exceptionally close to the sun.

      At the end of the day, at the scales that are involved, you might have improved the accuracy by a foot or two but it's hardly worth the effort.

      Believe me, getting ultra-accurate trajectories via standard Newtonian physics *is* possible...just really computationally intensive (has to be solved numerically).

    4. Re:Simple Newtonian by Keebler71 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Yup, we got to the moon (and will go further) using simple two-body equations... most of which are not-too-distantly related to the equations you used in high school physics. This is done by breaking the mission into smaller segments, the dynamics of which are governed using the assumption that only the body that has the greatest gravitational affect on the vehicle is currently active. This is called a patched conic approach

      Let's consider an Earth-moon tranfer, for the launch, the gravitational effects of the moon are miniscule and ignored. The vehicle is propagated outward from the Earth along an ellipse (or parabola) with the Earth at one focus. The laucnh dates and launch headings are adjusted such that this outbound orbit gets "close" to the moon. Now if you follow this orbit outwards, at some point it will get so close to the moon that the moon's gravity will dominate the Earth's effects. At this point you resolve the vehicle's state into the moon's (non-inertial) coordinate system in which frame that arrival orbit probably looks like a hyperbola. Now you follow that conic in to the periapsis (closest point of approach) and subtract just enough energy to result in a closed orbit about the moon. Voila! You are now in lunar orbit and never solved a three-body problem (at least not analytically). Of course, the devil is in the details, in this case, splinig the conics together.

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
  15. Orbiter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Orbiter is a great way to learn how those trips are done. It is a free simulator for windows and is available at www.orbitersim.com.
    It has tools for calculating all sorts of interplanetary transfers and you can actually perform the flight from launch to landing on mars with all kinds of spacecraft.

  16. Trajectory Math by waynegoode · · Score: 5, Informative
    I recently wrote some trajectory software for NASA. What I worked on is an approximation used for mission planning, not actual trajectories. I work with people who live and breathe this stuff and have worked on high-thrust and low-thrust trajectories for missions to the outer planets. I am mostly a software engineer, but I learned a lot from them while working on this project.

    The key here is the energy required. Space travel is still dominated by propulsion. That is, the engines and the fuel they need, and the fuel needed to launch that fuel to orbit, etc., is where most of the cost is.

    It is important to travel on a trajectory, called the transfer orbit, that requires the least energy. For a high thrust spacecraft, the minimum energy trajectory is called a Holman transfer. Simply, it is an orbit that just touches the orbits of both planets. The periapsis, the closest point to the sun, touches the orbit of the one planet and the apoapsis, the furtherest point, touches the other planet. For this to work, the destination planet needs to be half an orbit away when the spacecraft arrives. This is a lot easier to see in a picture.

    For Earth to Mars, the spacecraft launches and then the thrusters fire to change the spacecraft's orbit of the sun from Earth's orbit to the transfer orbit. It then travels half of the transfer orbit and fires its thrusters to change its orbit to match Mars. This can be done by aerocapture, aerobraking or propulsion. The opportunity for a Holman transfer to Mars occurs every 26 years. It is based on the length of the orbit for the bodies being transferred between. The return trip also needs to be a Holman transfer to save fuel. The opportunity does not occur until many months after arrival. I forget the actual number. That is why Mars trips will have a long stay on Mars before returning.

    Low thrust is different. Low thrust spacecraft thrust all or most of the time during the trip and the trajectory is more complicated. It is not usable for manned flight because it is to slow but is useful for unmanned spacecraft sometimes.

    This is called Celestial Mechanics. When you add propulsion, it becomes Orbital Mechanics.

    The best site I have found is NASA's Spacefligh Basics.

    Also good is this site.

    For explanation of gravity assists see this site.

    Also see, Science World at Wolrram

    1. Re:Trajectory Math by hcg50a · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think you mean 26 months, rather than years.

      --
      HCG 50a = 2MASX J11170638+5455016
      11h17m06.4s +54d55m02s
    2. Re:Trajectory Math by Savantissimo · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's a Hohmann transfer orbit, not "Holman". And you get a window for an Earth-Mars transfer orbit every 25+ months, not 26 years. And constant-thrust spacecraft are generally faster on interplanetary missions than high-thrust, brief impulse craft, with the exceptions being gravity assist manouvers and really low acceleration designs such as old-school ion thrusters, (which NASA only uses because they are scared to death of actually flying anything really innovative such as a VaSIMR or a magsail). Constant-acceleration designs are not used for manned missions yet because we havn't sent any manned missions far enough to take advantage of the method, but any manned interplanetary mission would be crazy not to use a magsail because it provides an artificial magnetosphere for charged-particle shielding while at the same time providing continuous thrust with minimal power consumption and no reaction mass by deflecting the solar wind.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    3. Re:Trajectory Math by sigmaseven · · Score: 2, Funny

      S'okay, mistakes happen -- thanks for the insight.

      (But you realize if it'd been a feet/meters error, you never would've heard the end of it....)

    4. Re:Trajectory Math by Tumbleweed · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, you might want to recheck that software you wrote for NASA, just in case. :)

    5. Re:Trajectory Math by Keebler71 · · Score: 4, Informative
      Overall - nice post. Unfortunately, IAARS and need to clarify a few minor details:
      • It's a Hohmann Transfer, not a Holman
      • Hohmann transfers are not always the minimum orbit energy orbit. If the ratio of the circular orbit radii is greater than 12 or so, then a bi-elliptic trajectory (three-burn) is optimal.
      • Actually, Celestial Mechanics is the study of the orbits of celestial bodies (naturally occurring) - man-made vehicles bring forth the distinction of Astrodynamics.
      • Mars' minimum energy transfers occur slightly more than every two years, not 26.
      • Oh, and I probably should be much more careful when using the work "optimal". Hohmann tranfers are only "optimal" if they are co-planar, the burns are considered impulses, and the effects of gravity assists, continuous thrust or any other non-conservative forces are ignored. In reality, we need to take advantage at least one of the above to even get to the outer planets on any type of reasonable time-line.
      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    6. Re:Trajectory Math by barawn · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hohmann transfers are not always the minimum orbit energy orbit.

      Hohmann transfers are never the minimum energy orbital transfer. IPS (interplanetary superhighway) orbits are lower energy for all cases, although they take much longer. (To be fair, IPS orbits are new - 1997-ish - and before that, Hohmann transfers were the minimum energy orbital transfer). IPS orbits are so low energy that it basically takes the same delta-V to get almost anywhere in the solar system - the delta-V to get to a Lagrange point.

      For manned missions, however, you don't really care about lowest-energy, because orbits are always tradeoffs between transit time and energy, and manned missions want the shortest transit time feasible.

  17. Mathematics is for Mathematicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tired of calculating so many epicycles? That's why we've introduced the Ronco Equant Point!

    The Ronco Equant Point is a pointless mathematical abstraction that gives you that perfect Renaissance instrumentalist astronomical result! Up to 200% more accurate than the other leading brand of Ptolemaic system, the Ronco Equant point will actually reduce the number of epicycles within 20 minutes - or your money back!

    Call now, and receive a *free* video, "Aristotle and You" - learn about the five elements, and find out how to justify your Ronco-enhanced Ptolemaic system in terms of Aristotelian cosmology!

    Look out for more Ronco History of Science products soon, including the "Intelligent Designer's Kit" and the "Ronco Enhanced Bottle-O-Caloric"!

  18. get someone else to foot the bill.. by peculiarmethod · · Score: 2, Funny

    Skip doing all the math and even the funding part by simply doctoring up a few satellite photos and a research paper calculating with near certainty that near limitless petroleum exists on mars, and they are protected by a heathon god.

    sit back and watch all the funds get diverted to a new space program.

    --
    ** "It's not my job to stand between the people talking to me, and the ones listening to me." -- Pego the Jerk
  19. Some info by interiot · · Score: 3, Informative
    MRO made me more interested in orbital mechanics, too.

    The best info I've found so far is actually a do-it-yourself exercise... there's a space-travel simulator that you can use to try to figure out how to get to mars, along with some helper apps that do some math for you.

    In terms of starting, basic data... you can ignore the effects of the MRO on the two planets, since it's so small. But the positions of the two planets can be gotten from here. To understand the coordinates used, study here.

    I'd like to find some decent open-source apps to visualize the orbits in 3D... at least a static diagram, if not an animation.

  20. Worth a prize by radtea · · Score: 4, Interesting


    I helped judge the Canada-Wide Science Fair a few years ago, and the person my judging team ranked the highest had set himself precisely this problem: how do you really calculate the trajectory of a spacecraft from Earth to Mars? His solution was a wonderful exploration of the gory details of the problem--he had parts of the orbit that could be approximated reasonably in closed form (basically when the spacecraft was far away from everything, especially Jupiter) and other bits where there were three-body and more calculations.

    He understood error estimation and the importance of computing the same quantity several different ways so that they act as a check on each other. He also had modeled aspects of the spacecraft itself, the rotational moments, effects of changing fuel mass, etc, etc, etc. In short, he understood that science is more of an art than a science. It was really nice work.

    --
    Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  21. One Semester Course in Orbital Mechanics by LabRat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The web page the OP found looks pretty cool..though I agree it's a little too condensed to be useful for a complete beginner. While I don't want to imply that orbital mechanics is out of the reach of intelligent, math-oriented folks without some sort of formal instruction....a course in the subject matter can definitely help. I took a class with the author of this book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0292 751052/qid=1124147579/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl 14/102-9094747-8542529?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

    With a decent mathematical background, the book could be followed fairly well to get an idea of what it takes to calculate the trajectory for a Martian mission. There are other books out there too...but I am familiar with this one since I used it in college. Dr. Szebehely was an awesome prof, by the way...everyone should have the privilege of learning from someone like him at least once in their lives.

    Of course, in the "real Solar System", the gravity of Jupiter can be a real factor, in addition to the other planets (depending on how close you need your calculations to be)...and unfortunately only the 2-body problem can be easily solved in a general closed form. For other scenarios, numerical methods that calculate the trajectory "step-by-step" must be employed.

    Good Luck!

  22. Two more things... by waynegoode · · Score: 4, Informative
    I forgot to answer part of the question. It is mostly a two-body problem--two bodies at a time. Launch is Earth and the spacecraft. Then it is the Sun and the spacecraft. Then it is Mars and the spacecraft. However, to go straight to a transfer orbit without orbiting the earth first, there is only one time of day to launch (local time), different for each destination. In this way the destination planet is considered at Earth launch.

    For my mission planning software we never considered more than two bodes at a time. For the real stuff, they probably consider more than two bodies at a time, but the other bodies are just correction factors.

    The Mechanical Universe, is an excellent way to learn this stuff. It comes on in reruns from time to time.

  23. TransX! by TrevorB · · Score: 4, Informative

    Duncan Sharpe's TransX

    C'mon Orbiter fans, you were thinking the exact same thing when you read this article... Planning a trip to Mars? Just hit Shift-J and start plotting your Hohmann transfer orbit insertion burn.

    For those who are lost:

    ORBITER is a free flight simulator that goes beyond the confines of Earth's atmosphere. Launch the Space Shuttle from Kennedy Space Center to deploy a satellite, rendezvous with the International Space Station or take the futuristic Delta-glider for a tour through the solar system - the choice is yours.
    But make no mistake - ORBITER is not a space shooter. The emphasis is firmly on realism, and the learning curve can be steep. Be prepared to invest some time and effort to brush up on your orbital mechanics background. A good starting point is JPL's Space Flight Learners' Workbook.


    also...

    TransX is [Duncan Sharpe's] eXtended Transfer MFD. It's designed for planning trips across the solar system, or even just to the moon. It's full-featured, with support for complex flight plans, including slingshot trajectories. And naturally, there's a manual that comes with it.

  24. "Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 2, Informative

    by Roger Bate.

    A fun physics exercise is to model a slingshot maneuver and then try to figure out *why* your rocket burn is more effective if you dip inside gravity well when you do it.

    1. Re:"Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 2, Informative

      I too was going to suggest Bate, Mueller and White, but I see somebody beat me to it.

      The sections on Hohmann Transfer Orbits and Patched Conics would see to answer the OP's question. Not good enough to actually fly a mission, but more than good enough to get the orders of magnitude (delta v, elapsed time, etc.) and figure out what else you need to figure out.

      ...laura

    2. Re:"Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" by kalidasa · · Score: 2, Informative

      Since you beat me to the citation, the best I guess I can do is to add the Amazon link. I believe there are some new things in astrodynamics, but this will give the reader a solid background.

  25. Pretty Simple first-pass calculation by nightwing2000 · · Score: 2, Informative
    IANAA but...

    Consider an elliptical orbit around the sun (aren't they all...) with a major axis where perihelion is earth's distance, aphelion is Mars' distance from the sun. I don't know the formula, but you should be able to find it on the net.

    Now calculate the orbit time. You start your trip tangent to the earth, and blast away faster than the earth is circling the sun (but in the same direction). You catch up to Mars as the top of your orbit is tangent to (grazes the inside of) Mars' orbit. Therefore, total trip time is 1/2 the orbit period (full orbit time shoould be somewhere between Earth's year and Mars' 2 earth-years - I guess about 16 months?).

    This ignores secondary effects like the slowdown escaping earth's gravity, and the acceleration reaching Mars. These should be minor adjustments - you would have to adjust your departure velocity from Earth to include extra for escape velocity from your starting point (presumably Low Earth Orbit). As you depart, Earth will slow you down somewhat, but past a million miles the effect should be negligible. It also ignores the ellipticity(??) of both Earth and Mars orbits, which change the distance an path - more second-order calculations. (Earth's orbit varies from 92m mi to 94m from the sun.) The second-order calculations shouldn't make a big difference...

    Then you need braking power at Mars, or you can use the atmosphere to brake (or break, if you miscalculate Km vs. Miles).

    So, the launch windows occur when Mars is in such a position that it will be 180 degrees ahead of Earth's current position when you get there...)

    Let's say the orbit time above is 16 months (a guess). So if today is a launch window, Mars has to be 180 degrees away in 16 months. Next window? 12 months from now, we're back here (360 deg) but Mars is 180deg away(2-year-long year) from where it was last launch time. 4 months more(16), we're 120 further, Mars 60 more, 180+60 = 240, or only 120 ahead now...etc. 18mo. and we're 360+180, Mars is 180 degrees; bingo - press the launch button again, and in 16(/) months, mars will be where you need it to be.

    Basically we're solving for integer solutions of: y= 2x (mod 360); but of course, the Martian year is not exactly 2 earth years. Look that up too.

    You can only launch in the same direction as Earth (and Mars) travel around the sun. This is the minimal amount of rocket fuel. It's like throwing a ball in the air so the top of its arc is just as high as the spot you want it to hit... Launch counter to Earth's orbit, other way, and instead of using the speed of the earth's solar orbit to boost you to Mars, it is a detriment. You'd be better off with a more direct route, if you have the fuel to burn.

    For faster transits, you just need an arbitrary chunk of an ellipse which intersects both orbits at the correct time. As for slow, steady propulsion like ion-drive or solar sail - well, that's why calculus exists.

    Rotsa Ruck.

  26. Fear and Fear Itself by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The mathematical models for ballistic missiles isn't what's stopping "terrorists" from making them. What stops terrorists is that it's so much cheaper, faster, more reliable and easier to load a truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil, then blow up a skyscraper or maybe a bridge. Or just release a $25 video "around election time", which is about 18 months every 2 years (75% of the time). Both of which create terror, which is the entire point of terrorism.

    There was a time when such math was secret, and strategic. But we caught up to the Soviets shortly after they tested that ballistic missile math on Sputnik, in the late 1950s. A half century later, our open society has proven more than a match for such "proprietary" losers. If we can stay that way, despite the exaggerated bugbears that people throw around to justify the secrecy that kills both science and liberty.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  27. Low Thrust and Space Lanes by CustomDesigned · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Low thrust is different. Low thrust spacecraft thrust all or most of the time during the trip and the trajectory is more complicated. It is not usable for manned flight because it is too slow but is useful for unmanned spacecraft sometimes.

    I find recent work on low thrust trajectories the most fascinating. I was made aware of it in Science News a few months ago. Although the combined influence of the Sun and all the planets form a chaotic system (in principle not predictable beyond certain time limits), there exist stable transfer lanes which function like chaotic attractors (thanks mainly to the stabilizing influence of Jupiter). Once you get your unmanned craft into the lane, it needs only to apply corrections now and then to stay in the lane - and gravity will take it all the way to its destination! The time required is measured in years rather than months, but it makes unmanned missions much more economical.

    The "slingshot" trajectories of earlier out planet explorers were similar, but had to be calculated in full for each mission. This new technique creates a 3D (orbital plane plus time) map of the space lanes - which looks like a maze of twisting tubes of varying diameters. To plan your trip, you find a lane near earth that goes to your destination. You need fuel for getting to the lane, course corrections while travelling, and exiting the lane.

    As described in the Novel Oxygen , we could send unmanned supply ships to Mars via the economical low thrust space lane routes. The manned mission would come later, when the supplies have and/or will have arrived, and will be lighter and cheaper since it will only need food, water, etc for the trip, and not for the extended stay required by Holman transfer trajectories for the speedier manned trip. Fuel for the return trip would also be sent ahead. (Clearly, I would want some reduncancy, and robot surveillance to ensure that said supplies have truly arrived safely.)

    Re the novel: of *course* something goes wrong. Think Apollo 13, but on a *much* longer trip. That's all I'll say.

  28. the Simple Answer and the Complex Answer by everphilski · · Score: 5, Informative

    The saying is "From low earth orbit, you are halfway to anywhere in the solar system." The delta-V (change in velocity) required to get to low earth orbit is about 7.6 m/s neglecting gravity and drag losses. The velocity to escape is about 13 m/s. Add in a little bit of velocity to correct your orbit to make it to Mars and it's about right, 14 m/s. (actually it'll be a bit more if you're launching from Kennedy, you have to get rid of that pesky inclination and that's an expensive maneuver, even combining it with the trans-martian injection it's expensive.

    Here's the actual procedure.
    1. surface to low earth orbit.
    2. circularize low earth orbit. [hohmann transfer]
    3. correct orbital parameters (longitude of ascending node, argument of periapsis, orbital inclination)
    4. low earth orbit to trans-martian-injection [hohmann transfer]
    (3 and 4 can be combined, to a point, in order to save delta-V.)
    5. burn to circularize martian orbit [hohmann transfer]
    6. correct orbital parameters (Same as 3)
    7. Burn to descend to surface
    The actual math is too much for a slashdot post. Sorry. If you are truly curious check out "Elements of Spacecraft Design" by Charles D. Brown.

    -everphilski-

    1. Re:the Simple Answer and the Complex Answer by paper_boats · · Score: 2, Informative
      As noted by parent, there's an easy answer, and a complex answer. For the basics of the problem, all you really need is the two-body equations of motion. A basic Hohmann transfer (an elliptical orbit connecting the near-circular orbits of the Earth and Mars) will get you there with a pretty close guess as to the fuel usage and mission duration. If you actually want to do the calculations, that's where you should start.

      As for the procedure, for most missions to Mars, the launch vehicle takes care of steps 1-4, they pretty much happen within a few hours at the most. The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter was separated from the launch vehicle and on it's way to Mars in a little over an hour after launch.

      There's usually at least one mid-course correction manuever, and then a final braking burn to bring set the craft up for a landing, or multiple braking burns if you're just going to go into orbit around Mars.

      As to how NASA actually models the trajectory, they probably use numerical integrators that take into account the basics (Earth, Sun, and Mars gravity), but also the gravity of the moon and maybe the other planets, and the solar radiation force. When you're calculating mid-course corrections these little things really start to matter (especially if you're going to be landing on the surface!). And if you're going to be orbiting Mars, then you would also take into account the fact that Mars is not a perfect sphere and how this affects your orbit. You could even use atmospheric drag to change your orbit like the Mars Odyssey spacecraft, cool stuff.

      Also, you don't really need to worry about the inclination you get launching from the Cape for a Mars mission. Once you get away from the Earth you're pretty much in the ecliptic plane relative to the sun and your inclination relative to the Earth is moot. And the units you're looking for in the first paragraph of the parent post are km/s.

  29. Porkchop Plots by everphilski · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yup. You have to do trade studies with lots of iterations. On one axis you have launch date, on the other you have arrival date, and you start plotting. You can then vary your trans-martian-injection burn, and what your get are called Porkchop plots, cause they look like porkchops.

    -everphilski-

  30. Nope. Not really. by everphilski · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Any orbital mechanics textbook will give you more than enough information to calculate this for yourself. One of my final exam questions in spacecraft design was to design a moon mission, in about 15 minutes. Mars isn't much harder, just further away, it's the same problem.

    "Elements of Spacecraft Design" by Charles D. Brown has a few good chapters on orbital mechanics. Check a local university library, cause the book cost me nigh unto $100 :P

    -everphilski-

  31. Why go to Mars? by Time+Doctor · · Score: 2, Funny

    I see no point, we can open a gate to Hell here on Earth. I assure you the research I've done proves that the risk is perfectly acceptable!

    If you would just increase my funding and personnel there would be fewer accidents.

    --Dr Bertregur.

    --
    Check out ioquake3.org for a great, free, First-Person Shooter engine!
  32. Satellite Tool Kit by outlineblue · · Score: 2, Informative

    check out STK, http://www.stk.com/ from AGI. It's pratically an industry standard.

    Want to plan a trip to Mars? no problem using the Astrogator plug-in you're in buisness. However it will set you back several thousands of dollars....

    1. Re:Satellite Tool Kit by GraWil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      AGI (makers of STK) was started by two former General Electric (space division) employees and their software has become industry standard. It is used by most space agencies including ESA & NASA. Note that the price point is high and roughly equal to the engineering time they envison their software replaces. A relatively base model will set you back about $30K USD if you want something with opengl graphics visualization. If you want to plan a mission to Mars you'll need astrogator and probably the visualization so your looking at $50K USD. There are academic discounts of about 20%. For perspective, I'm using STK right now for a Mars mission trade study.

      I use the software daily and while I cough at the price and maintenance, it does what it is supposed to do most of the time. Sadly, it does crash a fair bit under windows and they stopped developing for unix a few versions back...

  33. "Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" by Dr.+Zowie · · Score: 4, Informative
    is the book you want. It's by Bate, Mueller, and White, and it works from first principles up to "how we designed the Apollo lunar trajectories".

    The easiest way to conceive of interplanetary orbits is to first pretend that they lie in a single plane (the plane of the ecliptic) and then pretend that the planets themselves are insignificant for most of the trip -- so you consider only the gravitational field of the Sun. Then your orbit is an ellipse. It's pretty easy to show that, if you're going at Earth's orbital velocity, the ellipse that gets you from Earth's orbit to any other nearly circular orbit with the least change in velocity (ie rocket fuel) is an ellipse that is tangent to both orbits.

    Once you've figured that out, you have to figure out when to launch to get to Mars's orbit in the same place that Mars happens to be. Those times happen at a particular phase of Mars's and Earth's orbit.

    You can do pretty well by pretending that you can neglect the Sun entirely until you get far enough from the Earth, then you can neglect Earth and Mars entirely until you get close enough to Mars. That is the technique that was used for Apollo trajectories -- the "method of spliced conics". You can hear some evidence of it in the Apollo 13 movie, when they talk about "entering the Moon's gravitational field" or something like that -- the Moon's gravitational field extends throughout the Universe, of course, but to simplify the calculations they neglected everything but the mass with the strongest gravitational force on the capsule.

    Nowadays you can get really, really good orbital elements for each of the planets online, which lets you calculate exactly where each planet is at any given time. You can just code up an insanely cheesy inverse-square-law integrator in PDL or one of the other free languages -- or even a spreadsheet -- and find a good orbit by trial and error using the gravitational fields of all the large bodies in the solar system.

  34. A good book which touches on the topic..... by kernel+panic+attack · · Score: 4, Informative

    Take a look at the book "Mining the Sky" by John S. Lewis. Without getting into a deep mathmatical treatment, he does lay out what goes into calculating sending missions to and from Mars, Earth orbit, the moon, and the asteroid belt. If I am not mistaken, somewhere in there he even explains the significance of the oft heard NASA term "launch window". (It's basically when your launch site (Florida, for instance) and your target (Mars or the ISS) share a favored geometerical relationship in space-time.) While it is lite on the equations, I think this will have most of what you are looking for.... Now if I can just find my copy. BTW.. Lewis' books are a must read for anyone interested in what's up there, whether it's the moon, Mars, or beyond.

  35. Re:Trip to mars dont seem that "simple" by squidfood · · Score: 4, Funny
    Nasa has probably built a nifty model...

    <cheap shot>
    Here's a line of the code: // TODO: INSERT ENGLISH-METRIC CONVERSION
    </cheap shot>

  36. Re:easy: 4 step program by DaveCar · · Score: 4, Funny

    how to calculate a trip to Mars?

    1) Leave Earth
    2) ???
    3) Arrive Mars
    4) PROFIT!!!

  37. The Basics of Spaceflight by dev_alac · · Score: 2, Informative

    This page is a good start for learning about all the fun stuff that you have to do. Not quite the math you're looking for, but it covers stuff other than just orbits.

  38. Re:Trip to mars don't seem that "simple" by Mortlath · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Why can't they just "target" Mars?

    Because that approach would take too much fuel. I believe that NASA tries to calculate a launch pattern that more or less "slings" the object in an arc that will meet up with Mars after the necessary months of travel.

  39. The concept is easy. by Snags · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Hohmann transferr orbit is based on a few simple ideas. 1. You only want to do two short "burns". 2. Your orbit in between is an ellipse. 3. The most efficient way to increase your kinetic energy is to push yourself forward. This means that you'll be leaving Earth tangentially to our orbit. By the same token, you'll arrive at Mars tangentially to their orbit (the math is the same backwards). All orbits have constant energy (no slingshots considered here), so you'll go from orbit near Earth at one energy, to an in between energy, to an orbit near Mars energy. Note that the final burn near Mars should actually *increase* your kinetic energy. If you didn't do the burn, you'd "fall" back down to near Earth's orbit. So both burns are "forward". Once you accept these concepts of the Hohmann transfer, the timing is just math.

    --
    main(O){10<putchar((O--,102-((O&4)*16| (31&60>>5*(O&3)))))&&main(2+ O);}
    LN2 is cool!
  40. Atomic Rocket by mdarksbane · · Score: 2, Informative

    Atomic Rocket has some interesting reading. It's a nice mix of (as far as I can tell) good physics and some science fiction theory.

    Basically, the whole site was designed to help new sci-fi authors make their stories closer to scientific reality. So there's a lot of info not only on the various requirement for a mars trip with different types of engines (everything from chemical thrusters to ion drives to nuclear rockets to the sci-fi only torch ships) to what the requirements would be for a crew living on such a ship and what sort of person defense would actually be reasonable.

    It's a fun read, and quite educational as well, if not as hard-core science-y as some of the replies.

  41. According to one guy... by jd · · Score: 2, Informative
    ...in New Zealand, it is possible to build a cruise missile for about $5,000. True, it doesn't have much of a range - well, still 10 times that of the Hamas' toy rockets - and true, the US Government strong-armed the NZ authorities to ban the information, but I'm sure anyone who really wanted to could develop something similar from the mere fact that they know it can be done.


    Truck bombs are actually far more frightening than most people think. Think about it for a moment - the IRA's attack on Manchester in the late 1990s was a 1,000 lb. truck bomb - probably fertilizer. The Oklahoma City bombing was about the same sort of size. The biggest conventional bomb in the USA - about 14,000 lbs. - could be felt from 20 miles away.


    Those large trucks on the Interstate that you see every day have a weight limit of about 65,000 lbs. The main problem would be it wouldn't combust too well at that volume from a lack of oxygen, but all that would take is a LOX cylinder or two.


    This is the main reason I'm convinced most of the threats out there stupid, overblown or both. If they were THAT smart, THAT rich and THAT psychotic, London and New York would be fond memories and not much more.


    I'm not into conspiracy theories (I think those are a Plot by Them to Control The World by inciting paranoia), but I simply can't find any way to make the observations match the claims, which tells me that some component of the claims is exaggerated.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:According to one guy... by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting
      True. The truck bomb which destroyed the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 was one of the largest non-nuclear explosions in history.
      And for that one, like a good number of similar attacks, the brass had received intel in advance warning specifying darn near every key detail of who, what, when, where, why and how. And like other similar attacks, they ordered the guards to a less ready state and left a drive, clear of obstacles, through from the gate to the lobby.

      It was probably in the interest of someone's domestic political agenda to let that one happen. Just like on the 10th of September 2001 in Europe, flights and flight paths were locked down tight though not in the US. Hey if nothing happens then fine. However, if the attack goes through, then you have the perfect excuse to ram through the Patriot Act and other anti-American treachery.

      --
      Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  42. Who's selling MATLAB... by rnturn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... Earth-to-Mars calculation packages and, more importantly, who's buying them? I mean, that got to be a niche market if there ever was one.

    In a former life, I worked for a group that did some work for the Naval Research Laboratories. Some of the work involved LEO satellites. When asked what software package they were using (knowing that there were several available through COSMIC) to do the calculations, I still recall the answer: ``Oh, we just write our own.'' (As though they do it whenever they need such a program, probably while eating their corn flakes in the morning. Heck, they probably did just that. :-) Being mere mortals, we bought the sources for one of the nicer COSMIC packages. Name of it escapes me.)

    So is there really a market for doing interplanetary orbital calculations that someone's actually able to sell a package for $150 a pop? The folks that are actually able to send something from Earth to Mars I suspect are already able to whip out this code in short order. (Dang, I wish I'd watched `The Day the Earth Stood Still' over the weekend like I wanted to. Then I'd be able to include that nifty quote that Klaatu uttered about ``being good enough to get me from planet to planet''.)

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    1. Re:Who's selling MATLAB... by Cheerio+Boy · · Score: 2, Informative

      (Dang, I wish I'd watched `The Day the Earth Stood Still' over the weekend like I wanted to. Then I'd be able to include that nifty quote that Klaatu uttered about ``being good enough to get me from planet to planet''.)

      Klatu: I thought you would have solved it by now. You substitute this term here---and then the answer follows by variation of parameters.

      Physicist: That gives the first-order terms. But what about the higher orders?

      Klatu: Negligible.

      Physicist: You've tested this theory?

      Klatu [shrugs]: It works to get me between planets.

      --

      "Bah!" - Dogbert
  43. Other Software. by rssrss · · Score: 3, Informative
    It took me an excessively long time to figure this out, but I found this:

    BOTEC is a simple astrophysical and orbital mechanics calculator, including a database of all named Solar System objects. BOTEC is intended as a simple but useful calculator to assist with making astrophysical, orbital mechanics, and space navigation calculations. As the origin of the acronym applies, BOTEC is more of a "back-of-the-envelope calculator" rather than an industrial-strength calculator, although this may change in the future.

    BOTEC is primarily intended for people familiar with physics and Python, and as such is unlikely to be useful to the average enduser. BOTEC really consists of two parts: The BOTEC software, which knows what to do with the data, and the Solar System data itself, which is represented in a large data file (a Python pickle, actually). This is deliberately modularized so that the Solar System data BOTEC uses can be updated independently of software, and also that alternative data files (e.g., hypothetical stellar systems for fictional purposes) can be supported. All values are strictly in SI units.

    Partly because there is also this site which is styled Alcyone Software the site above is Alcyone Systems (thus the origins of my confusion) and which has astronomical software. I know one of the authors of one of the programs on alcoyne.de, he is a brilliant guy and the software is quite good. It provides lots of information about planetary orbits, but I do not think that it makes the orbital mechanics calculations.
    --
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
  44. Von Braun's Short & Sweet Rendition by cmholm · · Score: 2, Interesting
    One of the things the Wehrmacht's V2 program manager periodically whined about was the tendency of Von Braun and the other engineers to spend their time daydreaming about spaceflight, rather than the practical matter of lofting a ton of high explosives.

    After the war, while helping the US Army launch liberated V2s in New Mexico, Wernher continued to screw off, and eventually scribbled enough material for a small book, Das Marsprojekt. It was quickly offered in English translation as The Mars Project, and is still available in paperback. It's only 90 pages cover to cover, and covers all of the basic math, engineering concepts, and logistics of loading up the wagon for a trip.

    In particular, the orbital calculations are laid out and illustrated in such a way that anyone with any faculty in math can come to grips with it. THEN, you can go apeshit with tomes such as Introduction To Space Dynamics.

    --
    Luke, help me take this mask off ... Just for once, let me butterfly kiss you with my own eyes.
  45. You're not kidding! by ScarKnee · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Those large trucks on the Interstate that you see every day have a weight limit of about 65,000 lbs."

    Here's a link http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600155076,00 .html to a story of an explosion caused when a semi overturned and caught fire in a canyon about 35 miles from my home. It occurred last Wednesday. The semi was hauling 38,000 lbs. of explosives. Not one person died! That stretch of highway is highly-travelled and pretty dangerous on its own without exploding vehicles. If you look at the images of the road, you'll likely agree that it's quite an amazing thing that no one died. Nearly the entire semi and trailer were gone. The explosion left a crater about 20 to 35 feet deep and 60 to 80 feet wide.

    Here is another link http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_226191800.h tml to a Salt Lake TV station that received a video taken by someone travelling on the highway during the explosion. (The streaming video worked quite well on my Mac - Tiger & Safari - , so I'm pretty sure it'll work for most anyone)

    I plan to give those truckers an even wider berth from now on.

    1. Re:You're not kidding! by pomo+monster · · Score: 2, Funny

      Holy hell, that crater, and the fires up in the mountains all around... wow. Looks like the only reason no one was killed was that the rig was burning for a few minutes before it blew, giving everyone time to run. I'd have loved to have been the guy who first noticed the "danger: explosives" sign going up in flames.

      But the most impressive thing to me is, did they really rebuild that entire stretch of highway, including the railroad tracks, in THIRTY-SIX HOURS?!!? What the fuck! You've gotta send UDOT to New York, there's potholes here on Broadway that haven't been filled for months. I'm almost inclined to believe it's a propaganda tool by that news channel to make Utah look like some, I don't know, freeway utopia.

  46. You asked for it!!! by McSpace · · Score: 2, Informative

    From a theoretical basis its not as hard as you would think it is, as long as you can simplify the problem. That is, the mechanics point of view of it, and doing it all analytically. I myself am studying orbital mechanics at the moment, and in just 3 weeks you can learn the BASICS(i strecth the word basic here) for a interplanetary transfer.
    Here is a list of the sort of maths you would encounter in orbital mechanics:
    - Conic Sections (parabolas, hyperbolas...etc)
    - Calculus (pretty much have to know it all, a good understanding of differential equations (including partial D.E.), differential vector operator, even series calculations and their sums (eg Taylor series)...etc.)
    - Linear Algebra (Vector and matrix operations, also applications with calculus, eg coupled differential equations come up in 3d rigid dynamics problems which can be solved using diagonlization matrices)
    - something I missed !!

    NOW TO THE ACTUAL PROCESS.

    There are three main segments:
    Earth escape (hyperbolic)
    Heliocentric transfer and
    Planetary encounter.

    You use two- body mechanics to approximate trajectory of a spacecraft between two attracting bodies (its a 3 body problem, but you have to simplify it). This means you have to ignore all attracting bodies except the one with the most influence. Bodies with great masses have an "Attracting Sphere"(also known as 'sphere of influence') around them, when you leave the radius of that sphere you perform your 2-body calculations with the next body that has the greatest influence. Eg for Earth the radius for the sphere is 9.25 x 10^5 km. But don't forget that on the 'surface' of the sphere the influences of the 2 large bodies are equal, it's essentially a cosmic 'tug of war'.

    With interplanetary transfer you have to start to think in reverse, first you have to think as to what is the purpose of the craft, do I want it to
    a) send it into an orbit around the planet
    b) use the planet as a slingshot for the craft
    c) use the atmosphere of a planet to slow down my craft
    d) or just crash it! (War of the worlds?!)

    Then you need to calculate a HOHMANN TRANSFER that will give you a final approach velocity which will let you do one of those options (a,b,c or d). But for that final velocity you will need a certain initial velocity approach into the Hohmann transfer from a low Earth orbit(LEO).

    After you have set the spacecraft into a LEO(because before any orbital manoeuvres can be made the properties of the initial orbit must be known), and the right moment in time comes, you apply an impulse 'shot' to the spacecraft of around 20 seconds and assume that to be infinitesimal in comparison to the 18 months required to reach Mars. The impulse is applied tangentially(to LEO) to generate the initial velocity of for the Hohmann transfer. Make sure you fire in the right direction and use the Earths velocity as an advantage, you would not want to make it any harder by fighting the velocity of Earth too. While on the Hohmann transfer to Mars it is wiser to make small adjustments now in thrust and directions so that you can save on energy and thus propellant rather then having to make adjustments when arriving there. A small change in angle at some large distance can save the trouble of having to make big changes when arriving.

    From Earth to Mars the Hohmann transfer is a heliocentric transfer orbit ( the sun at the focus). The tough bit is having to think of it as a hyperbolic passage when approaching the planet. You have to think of the planet as a focus in your hyperbola where your flight of travel is the hyperbola and you are approaching the perigee form the asymptotes of the hyperbola( ie assume u are approaching from infinity, r~= infinity). For this, you initially assume that the velocity of your planet(the focus) is zero. Through the focus are two lines passing through and intersect there, these lines are parallel to the asymptotes. Give them the spacing 'delta'. Now if we know the velocity at which we a

  47. As always, Wikipedia to the rescue by Atario · · Score: 2, Informative
    --
    "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
  48. Re:Trip to mars dont seem that "simple" by Analogy+Man · · Score: 2, Informative
    I would hardly call the moon a "problem". Rather a gravity assist with the moon would save a considerable amount of energy. I don't have it anymore, but my astrodynamics book from college was not all that expensive ($25 paperback). The equations are a hell of a lot simpler than fluid mechanics.

    For an amatuer you could get by with the Earth and Moon (even exclude Sun...although it is large it is much further away) for initial trajectory, then consolidate Earth and Moon and add the Sun, drop the Earth out of the equation for a bit, then for the approach add Mars. Really by the time you add Mars back into the equation you are 99.xxx% of the way there. Most likely the errors in your equation would be bigger.

    The tricky part of this is integrating over time with the changing position of the planets. The good news is you are only interested in the trajectory of the vehicle and it has an infintesimal effect on the other bodies.

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    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
  49. The solar-system map they use is public at JPL by waterbear · · Score: 3, Informative

    They don't use two-body approximations for the NASA missions to Mars!

    They use high-precision numerical integration for the trajectory of the spacecraft, using one of the standard high-precision general ephemerides as background data. (Textbooks mentioned by posters elsewhere in this thread decribe in general terms the astronav. techniques used for mission planning, but as soon as they get down to mapping the trajectory as precisely as possible, they need the background ephemeris as well.)

    For the recent Mars missions, the background ephemeris is a very highly refined ephemeris "DE410" produced by the JPL, this appears to be a local improvement intended especially to reduce errors in the neighborhood of Mars and Saturn, relative to the DE405 ephemeris which remains the world standard for official ephemeris publications. It seems they got an accuracy in the region of Mars as close as only "a few meters"!!!

    See details of DE410 on the public JPL site here, and especially you might want to look at the background report on DE410.

    -wb-

  50. Re:Missing the point by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2

    Yes, like Rumsfeld planning to invade Iraq after Saudis, backed by Pakistan, based in Afghanistan planebombed us on 9/11/2001, because Iraq has better targets.

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    make install -not war

  51. Whoa, chill out... by falconbrad · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Everyone who's up in arms over the idea of simplifying the problem needs to calm down. As in most cases, taking into account anything and everything that could effect the trajectory of the spacecraft midflight in mathematical terms creates an overwhelming problem. Science, and good science at that, is constantly conducted using mathematical simplifications (or conducted accepting some form of error... even the most basic measurements, for example, are not accurate in the truest sense). The trick is knowing when and where to make those simplifications and understanding both what you are including the equations and what you are leaving out.

    Trying to understand multi-body, multi-plane interplanetary transfers taking into account the effect of radiation pressure, atmospheric drag in LEO, blah blah blah is really not necessary (and becomes extremely complex, as has already been discussed numerous times in previous posts) if all you're trying to do is understand the basic mechanics of a trip to Mars or any other planet, for that matter. Even the mathematics related to bodies that would have an effect on a Mars mission can be simplified through the use of ideas like sphere of influence (SOI; which celestial body has the prevailing gravitational influence on a spacecraft at which points in its trajectory) and the like.

    If you're just trying to begin to understand how interplanetary travel works, start with the basics. Then work your way out into Lagrange points, the effects of dark matter on deep space missions, and gravitational assist trajectories.