What's the Point of IT Certifications?

erica_ann asks: "Fact: You can have the knowledge without having to pay to be Certified when it comes to computers. Another fact: Just because you have the certification does not mean you actually know the material as well as someone who is not certified. You might just be good at taking tests. So what is the point of getting IT Certifications? To have a piece of paper?" "I have had this conversation with many friends and co workers. One thing I like out of all the conversations is getting more than just one point of view. I know my standpoint on it. I rambled on it for quite a while. But, what I would like to ask of everyone on Slashdot, is what is your opinion? Do you have certifications? Was it worth getting certified? How do employers, employees and management feel about them? Do you pay for them? Does the company pay for them? Is it worth being certified if you do not get a pay raise for it? What certifications bring more than others? Are specialized more employable than general certifications?

I think many people would benefit from hearing more than one side of the controversy. Maybe it will encourage more employers to reward for certifications. Maybe it will help the next person attain the career he or she wants. Is there such thing as being TOO certified for a job?

Or is the whole idea of getting alphabet soup behind your name just certifiably insane?"

Comments

What would the little kid say?

[nokilli]

Do not try to understand the point -- that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth.

What truth?

There is no point.
--
You didn't know.

Re:What would the little kid say?

[HTTP Error 403 403.9]

How about IT certification is an attempt to create a barrier to entry in order to create scarcity and subsequently higher wages and professional prestige (i.e. chicks).

Re:What would the little kid say?

[jedidiah]

You make this stuff sound like a law license when all it really is is a few vendor supplied multiple guess exams. That's not much of a barrier really. Just cram for the things like you did in college or high school.

          Barrier removed.

--JEDIDIAH OCP,SCSA

Re:What would the little kid say?

[SatanicPuppy]

Oooo, yea, replace one 500 dollar test with MANY 500 dollar tests! Easy profit for the testing companies, but does it benefit anyone else? No.

Anyway, that's pretty much how they do it anyway, except you'll find that there are many levels of certification, so you can get 4 or 5 different .Net or Linux certifications.

The whole idea of certifications is flawed, because the testing companies have a stake in putting as many people through their classes as possible. Theoretically they get paid the same if someone bombs the test, but that person goes back and tells all his friends that he just dropped 3000 on a whole lotta nothing, and they all cancel their classes with that company.

I had a guy ask me once if I was A+ certified, and I replied, "No, but I've taught A+ certification classes." It blew his mind. How could I ever have learned enough to teach such a mind-stretching class without actually getting certified? Whereas I was still reeling from the fact that someone would ask that question to an applicant for a mid-level solaris administration job.

The bottom line is, HR loves because it gives them an easy metric to measure candidates. And the testing companies love it because its a big business. And IT professionals buy into it because its a hell of a lot easier than trying to convey a complex skillset to someone who doesn't understand, doesn't want to understand, and couldn't really give a damn on top of it all.

Re:What would the little kid say?

[h4rm0ny]

few vendor supplied multiple guess exams.

There's the problem in a nutshell - the certification is a way for competing authorities to milk money out of people, and worse, if the model takes off amongst employers, then it will become a compulsory way to milk money out of people because independent learning will not be recognized.

The Open Source community should start a project to establish a set of knowledge that must be demonstrated in order to acquire certain levels and areas of certification. There's no better way to make sure that the knowledge is up to date and comprehensive.

That way, the accrediting bodies are little more than employed examiners who confirm that the applicant does indeed possess the knowledge on the checklist. This pulls the rug out from under any "educational" bodies that want to establish their own de facto certification scheme that they have a monopoly on.

I'd be happy to help with organizing / co-ordinating such an effort, though I lack the skills to deal with the knowledge itself in most areas.

Maybe we should look at beginning something like this. There is enough documentation out there for all this - it just has to be turned into a exam-style and gradeable format

Re:What would the little kid say?

[tambo]

The point is that certification has become dissociated from the actual abilities, and hence, the evaluation becomes useless.

It's not nearly as dissociated as the OP suggested. You can't pass an XML web services exam unless you know something about XML web services. A passing score doesn't guarantee expertise, but it does indicate a minimum level of competence.

Generally: Certifications are hoops. They have the same purpose as any other career hoop: jumping through them demonstrates that you're more motivated than your competitors who don't jump through them. As a job candidate, you can consider it a safety measure: you might get rejected for not having it, but you probably won't get rejected for having it.

IT has become too broad to be evaluated in a single test.

It's rarely a single test. Exams are pretty specific to a particular topic: web services, domain administration, configuring BizTalk server, etc. Even the A+ cert, which is pretty superficial, has one part for "hardware" and one for "software."

- David Stein

Re:What would the little kid say?

[Analogy Man]

I think that you hit the nail on the head. The value of most certifications begins and ends in the HR department.

My previous employer pushed for certifications. I observed that the worst project managers were PMP certified, the least infrastructure savvy admins were MS certified...

If I am hiring a person, I want to know their ability to solve problems. I would not trust an HR department to ask the right sort of questions to determine that.

In one interview I conducted a person explain at length the previous 3 projects they had led that never made it to production. He was very proud of the 18 months and thousands of pages of training materials that the customer never deployed. I understand that sometimes projects go south, but this guy started his career on the Titanic and more recently move from sea to air in the Hindenburg ....

Re:What would the little kid say?

[jedidiah]

Being forced to actually know a little something about the profession that you are being asked to practice is hardly a "barrier to entry".

Even the CCIE is nothing to be impressed by compared to a legal, medical or engineering license.

People that think that even Novell certs are an attempt at Guildsmenship need to get out of their cubicles and venture forth into the outside world a bit.

Re:What would the little kid say?

[Miguelito]

How about IT certification is an attempt to create a barrier to entry in order to create scarcity and subsequently higher wages and professional prestige (i.e. chicks).

Bwah ha ha... what a laugh. As someone that is an admin, and interviews people for positions now and then, I can tell you that I (and everyone else in our group that interviews as well) see(s) certs as useless. Far too many people have gone to those quickie schools like MicroSkills and just learned how to pass a cert test without actually understanding the underlying technology.

In fact, if someone really stresses their certs in the resume and/or while talking.. that tends to be a big negative. You can talk to your knowledge, telling me you have a cert isn't the answer to the question, and yes.. people have done that.

It's actually almost scary how hard it is to find really good admins now. Putting up a job opening will result in tons of responses, but 99% of them seem to be people who think that since they were able to install Fedora at home, they're qualified to be a sysadmin.

Re:What would the little kid say?

[h4rm0ny]

Fundamental difference - The current certification is (a) proprietary and (b) varying from organization to organization. What this means is that the certification industry goes into lock-down with a few (or one) major vendors being sole suppliers of that certification that says your worth employing. This has all the potential for price-hiking and standards distortion you would expect.

A community maintained certification would mean a much lower barrier of entry to independent groups keeping prices sane, better maintained standards of excellence, possibly even making certification mean something,

Because assessment would no longer be tied to the course (which it currently is because its the same people who want to sell you both), people like myself who already know a Hell of a lot and don't want to have to fork out money for a course I don't want will simply go and get their accreditation for much less.

Winners all round, especially the employers.

Re:What would the little kid say?

[Loconut1389]

This seems like a similar idea to HAM Radio examinations. You pay a very teeny testing fee of a couple bucks and people who've received a particular level of qualification can host the tests, though a minimum of two people is required IIRC.

What I'm worried about with the current scheme is that I'll spend $7k+/semester on tuition and get my nice BS in computer science and then have to fork out another few k in redundant certifications. There are guys ive worked with that have had to do just that.

I'm all for a HAM Radio Exam style setup with some sort of self-moderated body with partial governmental/other oversight.

Interviews

[pete-classic]

The point of certs is to put them on your resume, which gets you interviews.

That's all, really.

-Peter

DUH!

[ellem]

To get past the HR Trolls!

The only way to pass them is to point shiny Certifications into their beedy little eyes!

Re:DUH!

[Ruprecht the Monkeyb]

Not funny, too true.

I've worked in places where I didn't get to vet the resumes or write the classified ad. The most HR would let me do was reject the subset of resumes they deemed worthy and ask them to set up interviews with those that remained. It's quite interesting when they post ads asking for experts in 'Windows 97' or 'Novel Netwear'.

Re:DUH!

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Of course, that doesn't work, because a couple of holier-than-thou HR trolls consider certs as negative points.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't... I wonder if it's permissible to say "Certs: I have passed relevant certification tests, but I prefer to stand on my own qualifications instead, as listed elsewhere in this resume. Contact me if you would like to see my certificates."

Re:DUH!

[Manfre]

How about "Certifications available upon request"?

depends on expereince

[Brigadier]

I used to be one of those few IT guys who had a completely unrelated degree (architecture). However I somehow managed to procure enough experience that I really didn't need all the certificates (MSCE A+ etc.) I also know of many others in the same boat. However if your lacking experience then certification is a good way to get people to take a chance on you.

The Point is Simple

[dsginter]

The point of a cert is the same as a degree - it demonstrates to a complete stranger that one posesses a certain skillset and dedication. Certainly, we all know that genious who is a high school or college dropout but if you hadn't known this person for longer than a few minutes, just how do you go about figuring out if they have certain qualifications?

Yes - it is possible to do some quick testing in some cases. In other cases, certs are the only tool.

Re:The Point is Simple

[danheskett]

The people who usually bitch about certifications are the ones who have met a person who is an MSCE and is an idiot. They think: "this guy doesn't even know X, how can he be an MSCE? That MSCE thing is a joke!" Usually people have this attitude because they have no idea what a certain certificationa actually certifies. Really, before you bitch, find out what tests the person had to pass. Chances are you imputing more value to the certification than is deserved! I used to get a lot of crap from a certain subset of "know it alls" when they learned that I am MCDBA certified (Microsoft Certified Database Administrator). They just assumed based on the name that it says I can write a few SQL queries and create a few tables. A really common bitch I heard was "it's not anything I don't know from writing my own CMS with PHP and MYSQL". A very typical, but wrong, view. The certification tells my boss that I have a specific subset of database administration knowledge. The implication is that the non-certified employees "could just learn it if they need it", which is probably true to a degree. The point is, for the specific job, it required performance tuning a huge database running against a clustered SQL Server backend. "Learning on the job" was not acceptable risk for management.

Re:The Point is Simple

[RAMMS EIN]

``They think: "this guy doesn't even know X, how can he be an MSCE?''

Well...why would one need to know X to be a MSCE?

You don't expect an RHCE to know Solitaire, either, right?

A Few Thoughts:

[TripMaster Monkey]

Fact: You can have the knowledge without having to pay to be Certified when it comes to computers.

This was exactly my situation before I learned (to my chagrin) that most employers simply won't take you seriously unless you throw the alphabet soup at them.

Another fact: Just because you have the certification does not mean you actually know the material as well as someone who is not certified.

Again, something I'm uncomfortably familiar with, having to work with more than one 'paper MCSE' in the past...

So what is the point of getting IT Certifications? To have a piece of paper?

You got it. Unfortunately, that piece of paper is the only way non-technically-minded individuals have to gauge your technical prowes, so they tend to attach unreasonable worth to them.
This isn't a problem...it's an opportunity. "Turn the problem on its head...that's what the Bishop always said..." (apologies to Harry Harrison).
Most people in the IT field are good test takers...if you don't think of yourself as a good test taker, you probbly haven't worked hard enough at it. In a world where you will be judged all too often by your alphabet soup, test taking is a skill you must master. Myself, I've only studied for exams from books, rather than take expensive classes, commonly take about 20 minutes to finish a certification exam, and I haven't failed one yet. Am I that much of a genius? Heck no...I just test well, that's all.

To my mind, the key to testing well (as well as actually coming away with knowledge you can useon the job), is to actually understand the material, rather than simply know the answers by rote. When you can answer the practice questions without looking at the multiple choice answers, and understand why your answer is correct, you're ready.

Re:A Few Thoughts:

[Bonhamme Richard]

I actually recently had an economics professor explain to me why a college degree is worth something. I know that if I really wanted to understand a subject, I probably wouldn't go to a school of any kind to learn about it. I would buy a bunch of books, sit down, and read until I understood it. If it was something like programming I would code until I got it, if it was physics I'd build catapults and other toys to figure it all out.

I would probably end up understanding my subject really well, but no one else would know that. My degree is going to say that Mellon believes I know enough about ECE to set me lose upon the world with its reputation attached to my name. So a potential employer knows that CMU trusts my skills, and he will too. While I don't know much about IT certification, I'll assume it has a similar idea behind it.

Basically, a college degree is the economic equivalent of a warranty for a car. The university loses something (its reputation) if the produce (me) doesn't perform as expected. Is the reputation of a IT institute worth much? Probably not. That means that the warranty (the degree) is probably worth about the same.

I always thought of IT institutes as a kind of community college for CS students. I would say that if you have no work record, no college degree, and a passion for CS, the IT institutes sound like a good idea. If you have a strong work record or good degree, just look for an employer who knows what to look for.

Just my thoughts.

I saved this from a previous slashdot article.

[Vodalian]

When a shop requires certifications (MCSE, Cisco, Novell, Solaris... don't care which), you can count on the following:

1. You will have a pointy haired boss. This person will be a "manager", and have little technical skill. He/She will not be able to actually evaluate your work at a technical level. He/She will use "industry standard" metrics to evaluate your performance. The fact that you have a $CERTIFICATE makes you a safe bet for them to hire, since they probably can't tell the difference between someone walking in off the street and lying their ass off, and a seasoned 10 year IT vet.

2. You will make roughly "industry standard" wage, since your boss will really have no idea what you may or may not be worth.

3. Your chances of getting promoted to management are close to nil. After all, you can't go promoting the people that do all the work. They're too hard to find!

4. Your shop will get dragged, kicking and screaming into new technologies, since these likely have no certifications, and therefore no way for management to evaluate their worth. Your positive opinion towards new technologies will be considered an attempt to fill your resume in a vain attempt at escape or promotion.

Get certified... Work for the clueless.

CYA

[TheWanderingHermit]

Since I'm in my own business, this doesn't apply, but if I were a mid-level manager and needed to hire an IT person, and I hire someone with certification I can truthfully say I checked his qualifications. If they screw up, well, it's not my fault because I checked on what I could. But if I hire someone without certification, and they screw up, I can't prove I did all I was supposed to.

At least that's how I hear it from friends. Personally, I'd rather throw out oddball questions that most people won't expect from a manager and see if they actually know how to do what they claim they can -- or can at least think through the process. I'd rather have a competent tech or programmer than a certified one, but if you're not a the top, it can be different. Then it's better to prove you checked credentials and certifications than that the person actually be able to do the job.

No Cert and No CS degree == ?

[MarkEst1973]

I have neither a certification from a major vendor nor a CS degree. And I'm asked time and again how/why I got my computer skills. I'm knowledgeable and well read, but the lack of the "piece of paper" is glaring to employers.

Students with the 4.0GPAs with CS degrees might come out of school and not know jack about shit, while the self-taught guy with a 2.8 in Liberal Arts might code rings around the former. That's a fact.

I am in the process of getting certified and I would relish the opportunity to go back to school and get a CS degree. But the cert is a notch on my resume and a clear win in the short term. Once I'm in the door I know I can do well.

It's all about getting the toe in the door. Get the "piece of paper".

Re:No Cert and No CS degree == ?

[mandreko]

I don't even think i'd worry about getting the certs.

I am a 21 year old kid, who went to 3 years of college for computer science, and by the time the 3rd year came around, I was sick of it. The moment that made me realize it, was when I was in a 400 level class, about networking, and we were going over subnetting. The professor mentioned "binary". A kid in the class says "how do we count in binary?". Then everyone else started in saying they didn't know either.

This was a 400 level class, designed for the people who were almost out of school going to get jobs in the computer field. I dropped all my classes, and said goodbye to all my profs.

I haven't got any certs, because they seem worthless.

I got a job at a local ISP. I'm not rich, but for being 21, out on my own, I'm doing pretty good. I own a house, just bought a new 2005 mustang gt, and live happily. My job doesn't require me to take BS tests that show I know what they already know I know. They just let me do my thing.

Re:There is no point unless...

[VoidWraith]

I agree about the last statement. As part of a class I was taking in high school, we took the A+ certification, and CompTIA (the company behind it) screwed up my name, and treated me like NStar (an abysmal power company) does when I tried to fix it: poorly written demands for additional verification that I couldn't provide ("please fax a copy of your driver's license" but I had neither a driver's license nor a fax machine) and not even sending me the certification with the right name on it (that would cost me another $15, so I didn't bother).

Now, for a high school student, I think that the certification makes sense, because most people will just disregard any teenager as uneducated and inexperienced. The inexperience is, of course, still an issue, but with a certification, a teenager can prove that he's actually got the know-how to do the job, and there's a lot less of a risk in hiring him.

Re:There is no point unless...

[ellem]

I do not consider them at all, and am definitely prejudiced against someone who puts them on their resume.

Let's forget for a a minute that that is illegal.

This is a stupid way to think. Having a Cert doesn't make a candidate any worse than having a Cert makes them good.

A Cert, if nothing else, tells you the person WANTS to be in IT.

Re:There is no point unless...

[Telent]

Finally, as a person in a hiring position, I do not consider them at all, and am definitely prejudiced against someone who puts them on their resume.

See, this is one comment I've never really understood. Yes, there are lots of clueless certification monkeys out there. No, in most cases, certifications say absolutely nothing useful. But prejudice against those who may have gotten them for other reasons?

For instance, I am a MCP. I'm not particularly proud of it, being a Unix person, but work paid for it. Yeah, it's a Windows job; I'm living in a place with a weak Unix market and can't move for a couple years, and I choose to be able to pay rent. But I am a MCP, and I do put that on my resume... at the bottom, under "certifications/awards/professional organizations", in the same place I put my ACM membership and my black belt.

So why would that matter to you? Seriously. I'm curious.

The truth?

[deviantphil]

What truth?

There are FOUR lights

Just paper

[QMO]

Certifications are just paper and don't guarantee any knowledge or skill.

College degrees are just paper and don't guarantee any knowledge or skill.

The trouble is that experience on a resume is just paper too, and doesn't guarantee any knowledge of skill either.

If you're hiring, how do you tell the difference between paper knowledge/skill and real knowledge/skill?

Until everyone's completely honest (and probably after too) hiring will always be a lot of guess-and-check.

Re:There is no point unless...

[jersey_emt]

I agree 100%. It's one thing to not bother with obtaining certifications, or not requiring certifications when you hire someone. But to not give someone an interview, or not hire someone just on the basis that they *have* a certification in the field is asinine.

Up until I read that one comment, I was thinking 'Hey this guy is right. What's the point of certs?'

And then you made yourself look like a fool in my eyes.

Re:There is no point unless...

[dsginter]

I have never gotten any certification, nor has any employer seriously asked me for one.

You've never applied for a job that had a bachelors, associates or masters degree in the requirements?

That's what a degree is - a certification.

Certifications are entirely useful if they are configured properly. For example, lets assume that I am out of town with all of my geek friends and my wife's laptop breaks. She needs it fixed immediately. Who do I trust to fix it?

Right now, there really isn't a certification that I trust. I took the A+ and passed it in all of 20 minutes - it is a joke, although you do have to memorize some arcane knowledge (which doesn't prove useful in the real world). The MCDST is looking better, in this respect. But even this one doesn't throw a tech into a room full of parts (some of them non-functional) and ask him/her to build a product to specification (or repair an existing one).

When the certs require real-world knowledge, we'll have real-world use for them. In a pinch, however, if I were running a business, the cert is a good way of filtering out those who can't even pass a simple test. This Ask Slashdot should have read:

Dear Slashdot, I can't seem to pass the [insert any cert here] tests, why do we need them anyway?
 

Well, they don't *all* suck...

[JakiChan]

I will say this - the harder a cert is to get, the more it is worth. The CCIE still gets a lot of respect. When looking for a contractor I specify it just to save time. The first few times I tried to hire a network contractor I got "qualified" applicants who couldn't answer simple questions. So call me lazy, but just knowing someone has a CCIE (and verifying it) tells me a lot. And judging by the rates they command, I'd say it's worth it to them too.

Re:There is no point unless...

[tha_mink]

I call shenanigans.

HR does not write the screening requirements for a job posting, I do. And I can guarantee you that I have never put "A Random certificate from a body that has no credibility" as a requirement, so that shoots your to be interviewed pile argument all to hell. Especially since step two of the screening process is discard all resumes with the letters MCSE on them

I call bullshit on you. Certificates are really helpful when you get your employment through headhunters. They love them some certificates. Having said that, I thought I knew it all, or enough of it all anyways, until I got myself into some cert courses. Low and behold, I learned a whole bunch of helpful stuff that I didn't know before the courses. Worth the money? Probably not but the certs I got definitly got me my present job. Nothing wrong with being qualified AND certified.

Re:There is no point unless...

[Evil W1zard]

Just my opinion, but any hiring manager that openly states a prejudice against candidates who show that they are continuing their education via certification in a field is not worth their salt as a hiring manager. Every resume should have education and experience listed on it and the certification process is a good example that people are willing to continue their education and better themselves through certifications. I am not saying that in every case people with certifications will be better than those without, but in the same respect people with degrees are not always better than those without as well? What you are seeing is someone who potentially may be a good candidate and has some specific areas of talent that can be looked at during the hiring process. I also am surprised that you have had no experience with any company willing to pay for a certification for you in what you know because I have had the exact opposite. It seems fairly commonplace now in our realm to have companies give financial aid for certification as it is beneficial for the employee and the company (especially beneficial in the contractor realm...) Not trying to be a troll, but I can't take someone seriously who frowns upon further education?

A telling point

[Wingchild]

I recall a job interview I attended in 1999. The job itself was a pseudo-network-engineer position with heavy client interaction; I would have worked out of a co-location facility and managed equipment for a tiny list of clients. The position was quite junior. This particular job required an MCSE, which I possessed.

My interview was multi-stage, including a technical process. The questions they asked were laughable; "What is TCP/IP" and "What is DNS" and so forth. I pointed out that I was, in fact, an MCSE. They replied "We know - that's why we're asking."

Re:A telling point

[gclef]

Actually, I've found that asking basic questions like that, even of the very skilled, can be very telling.

If a network guy (or, in my case, network security guy) can't tell me the difference between TCP and UDP, this will be a very short interview. (Yes, I have had people fail that question.)

People lie on resumes, and really "obvious" questions are a good first-level filter for the liers.

It's what you make of it.

[sled]

Other people can't define how useful a certification will be for you. If you earn one with the expectation of gaining employment based on the certification alone, then you are probably not getting as much from it as you potentially could. Some people learn better having a well-defined objective such as passing a certification exam. And some certifications, like CCIE, are certainly not trivial and require signficant discipline and effort to obtain. Accordingly, they will provide a greater degree of recognition.

If you find certifications personally helpful in skill and career development, then go for it. Just don't walk in to a job interview expecting the piece of paper to talk for you. Point out that you earned it, and in what ways it has or hasn't helped your growth. If you are dealing with competent interviewers, they will recognize and value your focus on real-world skills.

The RHCE is different...

[FyRE666]

I took the RHCE (one week fast-track course) as the company were paying, and it was a week off at their expense as far as I was concerned. I found it pretty easy to pass, but since it's a performance based exam (ie, you actually have to solve real problems with the machine in front of you, or configure things to spec to a pretty tight schedule) you do have to know your stuff to have any chance in passine. This is unlike most "certifications" where at most you need to simply parrot what you've been trained, or just tick boxes.

I can't say I actually learned anything during the course, (maybe had my memory refreshed though!) but I'd consider it at least an indication of a person's ability to configure a system, have some idea of the general system layout and how to troubleshoot common problems.

Re:There is no point unless...

[harlows_monkeys]

Finally, as a person in a hiring position, I do not consider them at all, and am definitely prejudiced against someone who puts them on their resume

So, the answer to the original question, then, would be that having a certification helps avoid getting a job under a stupid boss.

Re:There is no point unless...

[sedyn]

Just me wondering, when evaluating what people to interview, what qualifications would you look at?

The most obvious thing I can think of is experience. But that begs the question of how one gains experience.

I'm not going to completely disagree with you in general, because I come from the perspective that if I were hiring I would not want anyone without a CS degree (where certifications are pretty much irrelevant). And even then I would thoroughly test them, because bad students can get through.

Re:There is no point unless...

[Nodar]

so... you are in a hiring posotion... Hey, buddy, i'm looking for a job, great news too, I don't have any certs. Hell, I don't even have a degree, I figure, why do I need one? I'm sure by this point, I'm pretty much a sure bet for getting this job, but if you want to actually do an interview as a free write off lunch or something, I would understand. We'll be in touch, nice doing buisness with you. ass

Re:There is no point unless...

[Harodotus]

Not the only shining light, I too find my CISSP certification useful.

I am a highly qualified consultant of 15+ years experience. I live and die by recruiters deciding whether or not to pass my resume on to my actual customers.

Before my certification, I had to go into great length about how my semi-directly related experience matched what the job requirements. Now I can say "oh I'm certified in that specifically and have done similar things in the past".

Admittedly it doesn't speak to whether I'm really qualified, but if it gets me past a semi-clueless recruiter to actually speak with the hiring customer/manager, then it was worth but the time and money to get it.

Just be careful that you don't have too many certifications or list any lame/negative ones and it'll help you find work.

For those already employed, it looks great on a performance review and can help the justification for position or pay rate increases.

Re:There is no point unless...

[ellem]

My wife (an HR Troll... until recently) says:

If the job requires a degree then a Cert can be considered not enough. By disqualifying a candidate over the successful completetion of a Certification you are basically discriminating. While it is unusual to discriminate someone for a redeeming quality it is not unheard of. A recent discrimination case was brought against Merill Lynch for refusing to hire Yale graduates, as the hiring manager was a Harvard graduate. Those discriminated against were ultimately settled with by Merill Lynch who also fired the hiring manger. These are not exactly the same but paralels can easily be drawn.

Re:There is no point unless...

[nine-times]

Notice he didn't say that he's prejudiced against someone who has certifications? He says he's prejudiced against people who put them on their resume. Certainly it's fair in business to judge someone by what they choose to put on their resume.

Also, I think I know what this guy means. It's one thing if someone has some small note in this resume listing some certifications, but I've seen people who'll put an insignia right at the top, bigger than anything else: A+ certified, MCSE. In my experience, good techs rarely value their MCSE very much (even if they have it).

But, certs help with that

[Sycraft-fu]

It's easy to verify a cert as being legit. So what it tells you is the person had enough knowledge to pass the test and enough drive to go and actually do so. Is that a guarantee of skills? Of course not, but it does tell you SOMETHING at least. If someone has an MCSE and they've got a few years of Windows support experience on their resume, you can be reasonably certian that they actually know what they are talking about, when it comes to Windows. Again, no guarantee, but more so than if they just listed a job with nothing to back it up.

The point of certification is cheaper labor

[tmoertel]

Certification programs exist largely to commoditize platform-specific labor. They benefit vendors, such as Sun and Microsoft, that sell infrastructure technologies ("platforms") to large corporate clients. These vendors want to assure potential clients that their platforms are supported by legions of inexpensive, largely interchangeable laborers.

The certification programs are the means by which these assurances are made real. They define the minimal skill sets necessary to be considered competent in a particular platform. What makes the programs effective tools for driving down the cost of programming labor is that most certifications are easier for unskilled and offshore laborers to obtain than more traditional means of qualification, such as four-year degrees and on-the-job experience.

Whether certifications are good or bad depends on where you stand. If you don't have technical skills or experience and want to get into a market where certifications are prominent, go for the certification. On the other hand, if you have excellent skills and a track record that sets you apart, avoid markets where certification programs are rife because your abilities probably won't be appreciated. You should realize, however, that much of the work in the industry is going the way of commoditization, and it will be increasingly difficult to find corporate clients willing to pay much more than what the typical certification-holding employee is paid. For this reason, if you have the ability, you might want to start your own business or join a startup.

Re:There is no point unless...

[leonexis]

As someone who graduated from high school two years ago, I can tell you that certifications are not everything. Although I have taken two years of Cisco Networking at Carson High School, I did not take the CCNA test at the end.

Because I really wanted to with computers and I wanted to help people, I worked for a non-profit organization that recycles and refurbishes computers for the community. I did not get paid much, but I had a place to live and I was happy. A year later, a local company made a presentation to us (ComputerCorps) and wanted to use us to beta test their products.

After they made their presentation, they saw the utilities I wrote and the projects I've. They offered me a job as a programmer on the spot before even asking me what certifications I have. After six months, I became that company's lead programmer and network administrator. I am also a part-owner of that company.

Although certifications are nice, they do not get you the job. They may get you in the door at some places, but determination and experience are the real factors that get you the job.

-steve

Re:There is no point unless...

[qwijibo]

Why do you list the MCSE on the second AND third lines?

Re:Certifications...

[rbochan]

Ok, guess it's time to pull out my "certs don't mean jack" story here once again...

Since my sister lives several hundred miles away, I'm saved from most "family tech support issues". Her Win98 computer wasn't running so fast a couple of years back, so she decided to add more ram to it to speed things up. Her husband took it to his "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" to get the job done.
"MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" proceeded to drop a screwdriver onto the mobo when it was powered and fried it. He also had the nerve to charge them for a new motherboard, but at least the ram got installed.
I was visiting a couple of months later when my sister mentioned that she couldn't get any sound when she tried to play a CD. As I was already almost seething when she'd told me about the motherboard, I figured I knew exactly what the deal was. I peered in through the back to, sure enough, see that "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" hadn't reconnected the CD audio cable and it was just dangling there. I then grabbed a screwdriver to open the case to connect the cable.
Seems "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" lost the case screws, so "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" POP-RIVETED THE GOD DAMN CASE SHUT.
Another half hour, a drill, and migraine later, she once again had CD audio working.

So, yes... certs might look good on paper, but they don't mean jack when it comes to knowledge.

Easy weedout

[Spazmania]

When I hire for an Open Source guy, certifications are a red-flag for me. Unless you're very junior, the fact that you wasted space in your resume to tell me that you're certified in a dozen meaningless things tells me you're the wrong guy for the job.

I just recently saw a resume with a bunch of certifications on page 1. He had a college degree... listed all the way on page 5. Roundfile. Goodbye.

More certs or a Masters degree?

[modi123]

I am not so sure about certs - I never saw the point, but as it sits right now I am wondering if my four year university degree was worth the student loans!

I graduated with a Comp. Sci. BS from a Nebraska university two years ago, and I am barely at where I want to go. At the time: excelled at the classes I took (mainly programming c++, java, cobol, and perl), went out and obtained a side minor of Native American studies, and was planning on going to grad school for AI and complex adaptive agents. Due to financing I opted to not go massively in debt for my masters or PhD, and started to move up in the company I worked for. I worked up to a managerial level in a call center, then hopped the wall to our software testing team. Another guy and myself are the only two in the department of 40ish people that have IT degrees. I took the job in hopes of bouncing to the programming department, but I still had to stop and meekly say "Ouch!" at the prospects. I wonder if it was worth the four years of university to be where I am or could I have just gone and snatched up a bunch of certs and a two year technical degree. Would I be in a different boat or just the same situation two years earlier?

The new dilemma is to peruse a masters degree or get another BS through a technical college in a year or so in "computer information systems technology" (read: programming specific). Would anyone care to comment on the use of a masters' degree over another BS or a barrel full of certs?

Re:the value lies in the HR department

[sguine]

That may once have been true, but many HR departments are populated with technology professionals, who can filter resumes and get them to the right hiring manager. Certifications, IMHO, should be used to gauge against what is actually on the resume. If there is a certification on the resume and no actual experience, then that resume does not get the same treatment as the resume that illustrates experience in a particular technical skill. Believe it or not, recruiters like me are reading the resumes and not only looking at the certifications and buzzwords. I look for experience by project first. There are times when I have talked a manager into seeing a candidate that only wanted to see CISCO people. He hired the Nortel candidate. It's all a matter of knowing the manager's hiring needs and understanding the technical environment.