Slashdot Mirror
Titan Occupies A Solar System Sweet Spot
SocietyoftheFist writes "From an article on the BBC website, scientists have determined that Titan occupies a 'sweet spot' much like Earth. Venus is the same size as Earth but too hot so water boiled off long ago ending most geologic processes. Mars is too small to generate enough heat to keep water from freezing so it too slowed down geologically. Titan is much like the Earth with winds, rains and tectonic forces but instead of water it has an abundance of methane. Methane is liquid at the temperatures found in Titan's atmosphere and replaces water in the equation."
Methane hey. that could be spelled "oil"
I say we go get rid of the terrorist on Titan.
Methane? Ah ha, I've got it!
Cows are really aliens from Titan sent to observe us. The methane they, uh, "give off" is just a little air leak in their otherwise-perfect disguises.
No, no. I think the Font of Life is Comic Sans.
Sig Sig Sputnik
What I don't get is how is this considered the sweet spot?
Its not oxygen, its not water, its not livable, its not breathable, and I'm sure as hell that the temperature's not close to tolerable.
Methane only burns in the presence of oxygen, there's not enough oxygen on Titan for that. You'll have to go back to mailboxes.
There are theoretical models which postulate that life 'not quite as we know it' could evolve in a methane based ecosystem.
You're thinking too narrowly - not all life has to be carbon-based, mostly water, and oxygen-breathing.
In both of their "sweet spot" scenarios, they attribute boiling water to solar proximity, but then frozen water to planetary mass. In both cases, the whole thing can be explained just with solar proximity, as it usually has been. Planets farther away have colder temperatures. Yes, its true that a smaller planet will retain less heat, but the primary factor here is still solar proximity.
A fundamental issue, as I understamd it, is the speed of chemical reactions. Roughly speaking, chemical process speeds are related exponentially to temperature. Generally speaking, the temperatures on Titan are far to low to permit life processes anything like the sort we see on Earth. That isn't a definite "no", but any life forms would have to be radically different from anything on Earth.
While the methane jokes are just HI-larious, on a more serious/sci-nerd note:
Methane is a lot less likely to be the "solvent" for life as water is. Water has a lot of very unusual properties which are important factors in the biochemical reactions of life; the most important of these is its strong polar nature. The polarity of water is a, if not the (biochemists feel free to correct me, i'm synthetic org.), major factor in protein folding; the ability of water to dissolve ionic compounds is also vitally important, e.g. nerve function. Bottom line, a nonpolar organic solvent is a *lot* less likely, if not impossible, to support life.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Now we have a lifeless planet full of transit bus fuel. Just have to get it here...
Help us build a better map!
There are theoretical models which postulate that life 'not quite as we know it' could evolve in a methane based ecosystem. Ahhh - so that's where slashdot began.
Cue umpteen posts noting that there's no oxygen for the methane to combust with. Follow with posts noting the redundancy and anal nature of the preceeding posts. Follows those with posts arguing the relatively humorous nature of the posts preceeding the preceeding posts. Mix thoroughly, bake at brainstorm temperature, serves as many /.ers as bother reading.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Isn't methane a little bit too flammable? Imagine that poor titanian that first discoveres fire:
"Hey look i have created..."
KA-BOOM
X~
Has anyone considered that maybe Earth is just the most Titan-like place in the Solar System other than Titan?
Image here.
Text:
Methane clathrate deposits in the ocean floor have been found to be inhabited by polychaete worms of the species Hesiocaeca methanicola. The worms colonize the ice-methane solid and appear to survive by gleaning bacteria that in turn metabolize the clathrate. In 1997, Charles Fisher, professor of biology at Penn State, discovered this remarkable creature living on mounds of methane ice under half a mile of ocean on the floor of the Gulf of Mexico.
Oh it doesn't? Do you have a counter-example of life for us to look at that isn't carbon based, and mostly water and oxygen breathing? (well, trees breathe CO2 for the carbon content, but trees need oxidants too).
If so, please contact someone in the scientific community immediately.
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
1. Go to bookshelf
2. Take out the dictionary
3. Look up the word theoretical
http://www-gerg.tamu.edu/photogallery/submarine/a1 .jpg
& hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wi
http://images.google.com/images?q=methane%20worms
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
not all life has to be carbon-based, mostly water, and oxygen-breathing.
That is true, but you also have to take into account the fact that solid water (ice) is less dense then liquid water. We take it for granted, but think about how it affects our planet. The bottom of the ocean is not solid like the bottom of a methane ocean. They are liquid and at a controlled temperature (4 degrees celcius). How much of a role does this little oddity of water play into our planet's evolution?
The previous comment is purposely vague and generalized, but all of the facts are completely true.
And to extract it from the water ice you need fire to melt the ice and electricity to seperate the oxygen.
It takes 118 kcal to turn two H20 molecules into one 02 molecule (I'm ignoring the hydrogen as waste for the moment.)
You need two O2 molecules to react with one molecule of methane. This reaction will produce
191.6826 kcal.
Which means that it would take a net energy input of 44 kilocalories per each molecule of methane that you burn.
You better make that a large fire to start with because it will only get smaller the more you use it.
Sometimes I've wondered what would happen if we could (magically) replace our moon with Titan. It's larger than the moon so tidal effects and animal life here on earth will be affected of course, but what would happen to Titan's atmosphere? Huge greenhouse effect?
Europa would be an interesting candidate too... but maybe this sort of speculation belongs in the 'Who would win: Skeletor vs Dr.Doom' category.
The Chair Corp. comic(*00-12)
Rectum? Damn near killed 'em!
Jeremy
Do you have an example to prove that life must be carbon based, and mostly water and oxygen breathing? Let's face it, our little planet is unique right now. It could swing either way. One example - us - is hardly sufficient to prove a model. There are physical properties about the elements and molecules that make life possible on this planet, but only our life. Truth be told we don't quite know how life ever came into existence. Until we find another form of life that didn't come from our little back-water planet all we have is speculation.
So if you can prove the reverse, please contact someone in the scientific community immediately.
The additional heat that it receives from the sun, combined with that length of exposure to it, meant temperatures soared.
The atmosphere is mainly Sulphur Dioxide. The planet has been wrought with volcanism in the past, so much so that the whole surface is about the same age.
Any water Venus may have had is long gone.
The thick atmosphere acts as a blanket, trapping the heat it receives from the sun, basically making the planet is its own pressure cooker. Every so often, it must 'boil over' in a colossal volcanic episode.
Surface life may well prove to the the rarity.
Somewhere like Ganymede, or Europa, has a far greater habitability beneath the surface.
Sub-surface regions seems generally more likely to allow life to get started than surfaces. A bit of activity there is good, as life thrives in changing rather than fixed environments (as far as we know).
Even life on earth began below the surface, in the oceans.
Sub-surface is where we may find life on Mars, there's no question of life on the surface there.
While you do have a propensity towards green women, the smell captin...how do you get past the smell?
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
So... our early Titan colonies will be plastered with "ABSOLUTELY No Smoking" signs.
You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
Folks, Vonnegut is "Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.", the referenced work is "The Sirens of Titan", and the "ice-nine" reference is from another book: "Cat's Cradle".
In "The Sirens of Titan" (been years since I read it, so I'll try my best), one of Vonnegut's earliest works, much is made of the notion that Titan enjoyed conditions similar to Earth's as the article states, and so some of the action takes place on Titan, which is predicted to be where the book's protagonist, Rumford, is going to die. If I'm not hallucinating, quite a bit takes place on Mars, as well, involving a massive militray operation and some of the most insanely infectious rhyming ditties ever written. And I remember something about a wild party with a piano pushed into a swimming pool, beautiful creatures called harmoniums, flying saucers, chrono-synclastic infundibulum, and the repeated theme-invoking line "Somebody up there must like you!" Vonnegut students will recognise many of the elements of his life's work born in this novel.
Sheesh, I miss that book, now. I'm going to have to dig it up again.
So to get life you need 4 elements?
Wind = Air;
Tectonic Forces = Earth;
Liquid Methane = Water;
And Fire would be... Required temperature or lightning?
Storm. In an ocean or just on a coast lightning striking something? Perhaps that's how life is born?
Not that I have any idea what I'm talking about... :)
Surprisingly, I think there is quite a lot. Most of the minerals that make up Earth's crust contain water, and water, under pressure is drawn down into the crust at spreading faults. Also the carbonate minerals would not exist without long-lasting oceans where CO2 and silicate rocks can slowly combine. These hydrated and carbonate minerals act, I think as a lubricant to plate movements. I am not a geologist, but I'm sure I read this somewhere once. I can't quickly find confirmation.