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TiVo OS Update Adds Content Protection

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the does-this-mean-they-have-jumped-the-shark dept.

generic-man writes "According to PVRBlog, TiVo's new operating system update enables content protection flags on a per-show basis. On some programs, notably syndicated shows, a red flag appears to indicate that the copyright holder has requested that TiVo devices not save a program past a certain date and that the program may not be copied to a PC using TiVo to Go. TiVo users were told to expect this style of flag only on pay-per-view and video on demand programming, and as such are upset that TiVo has restricted the capabilities of the receivers they bought and subscribed to use. The TiVo Community boards have some screen shots and firsthand accounts."

29 of 615 comments (clear)

  1. MythTV by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 4, Interesting


    Just one more good reason to bite the bullet, sit down, and build yourself a MythTV box.

    There's a good walkthrough on building a MythTV box over on O'Reilly Digital Media, and another on the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

  2. Driving Sales! by AcheronHades · · Score: 4, Informative

    For some reason I remember reading that Tivo struggles to stay out of the red and that they are really not even that profitable. So why then would they add in a feature to restrict the functionality of their product and piss people off?

    There has to be something else here, this just doesnt make buisness sense.

  3. Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's something wrong about selling a device to do something, and later limiting the ability of the device to do what it was designed to do.

  4. BUG!!!! by doormat · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is a bug on behalf of the Tivo software...

    See

    http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2005/09/c opy_protection.html


    Update: Jim Denney, director of product marketing for TiVo, said the instances of standard TV shows being affected by new copy protection restrictions likely are "false positives."

    Denney said the copy protection is trigged by a flag in the video signal. The reports appearing on the Web appear to be cases where TiVo misinterprets noise in the signal as a copy protection flag, and imposes the restrictions.

    "During the test process, we came across people who had false positives because of noisy analog signals," he said. "We actually delayed development (of the new TiVo software) to address those false positives."


    Apparently they still didnt fix the issues.

    --
    The Doormat

    If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
  5. Oh, good... by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...it's another example to use when explaining to people exactly why they should be opposed to DRM and the Broadcast Flag. It's good that it will spread awareness of the issue, so that we have a better chance of stopping it before it becomes mandatory by law.

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  6. That's fine for us ... by b0r1s · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But the age-old argument holds: this won't work for (just an example) my parents.

    In the past, Tivo employees have been very helpful in helping users work around these types of issues - they don't really care if you record the show, install larger hard drives, pull video off to your computer, as long as they get their subscription fee.

    Hopefully a workaround comes out and makes it to the forums.

    --
    Mooniacs for iOS and Android
    1. Re:That's fine for us ... by ciscoguy01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Tivo deliberately built a crippled product: Unless you paid them for a monthly subscription you got no guide data, and that made it unuseable. The monthly subscription is exhorbitant, and the flaw in their business model is that they wanted to sell you the box.

      If they had kept the boxes and let you have one as a rental that business model might be valid and the idea that you received some "service" for your monthly fee might have some validity.

      But they sold them, and through the crippled nature of their product and the monthly fee they are trying to maintain ownership and control over you and your box, which unfortunately for them they SOLD you.

      You can't maintain control over things you sold. If you want to maintain control, don't sell it.

      That is now over since they have tipped their hand, first by sending you ads and taking up part of the guide data that YOU ARE PAYING FOR. Now by limiting what you can do with items you have stored in your box, which you own.

      I think it's about over for the current Tivo business model.

      They should just start being honest, give the boxes out as a rental and then they can control them.

      Once sold they lose the ability to control them and I can see the handwriting on the wall, internet accessable guide servers will soon abound and Tivo has no more revenue from people who own those boxes- their current customers.

      That is completely fair.

      --
      .
    2. Re:That's fine for us ... by null+etc. · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I can certainly understand your perspective - that's my exact experience a few years ago.

      Recently, however, I've taken another fstab at it using Gentoo. I've come to learn much more about Linux that I've ever understood, thanks to the crisp documentation and hands-on aspect of Gentoo.

      Thus far, my experiences with building MythTV on Gentoo, with all sorts of crazy features (gaming, VFD text displays, universal remote support, PS2 gamepads, HDTV capture and TV output, etc) has been extremely positive.

      My problem now? Spending absurd amounts of money modding the hell out of my MythTV box. I bought one of those dedicated Media PC cases, and am going crazy installing lighted pushbutton switches, rewiring my PSU to be like an XConnect, running neon lights all over the place, soundproofing the heck out of the machine. I've spent almost $2k on this box! But, it has Dual layer DVD-R, half terabyte of hard drive space, can record two HD channels, and looks more A/V than my A/V receiver! Buying a similar box from Sony costs about $1,200, which doesn't let you play games, run Windows apps via Wine, or have file sharing and version control services.

      I'll take that over Tivo any day of the week for $2000, Alex! And now I don't have to worry about some product manufacturer farking around with my rights after I've bought a lifetime subscription to their service.

    3. Re:That's fine for us ... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I run MythTV with a journaling filesystem. What you find out is that Murphy's law has no exceptions.

      For example, this summer I found out that my BIOS had an optional setting to automatically cut power if it thought the MB temperature was too high. The machine had been crunching on shows for months, but once the warm season arrived, it would mysteriously power down with no warning during long transcoding jobs. It took me a little while to figure out what was going on and turn off that option (the MB really wasn't getting all that hot; the threshold was just set way too low).

      I've had video card driver I/O errors lock up the machine more than once.

      Once an error at the Zap2it server caused the entire program guide database to empty out, so recording stopped until I reloaded it.

      The latest screwup was somebody left the CD tray slightly open and then closed the front access door so the tray was stuck between open and closed. The kernel started logging millions of messages about not being able to access the CD drive. After a couple of days, it filled up the OS partition and MythTV stopped working.

      MythTV has a lot of compelling features that make it worth it for me to maintain it, but I would never consider taking on the hassle of doing it for someone else. People tend to think that the shows they record are a high priority, so of course any problems have to be fixed NOW. It's bad enough answering to members of my own household when the thing starts messing up, much less handling the crisis for someone else on a phone help line.

    4. Re:That's fine for us ... by null+etc. · · Score: 4, Insightful
      That's what backups are for. Damn people these days with their 500GB hard drives and no backups. You get what you deserve.

      What do you back up 500GB hard drives onto? 125 DVD-Rs for $150?

    5. Re:That's fine for us ... by ad0gg · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not only did they force you to purchase monthly service, they also spy on you aswell. When your tivo makes its daily call, its sends your remote control click log back to tivo. So they actually know you rewind on every racy scene. They say its anonymous, but on the same call it sends your credentials back so it can get the guide the data.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    6. Re:That's fine for us ... by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I noticed you conveniently failed to address his point about the device you bought and paid for spying on you. But I suppose that isn't a problem for you because only criminals have something to hide, eh?

      I didn't address it because it didn't seem necessary (as in, that part seems like a flagrant troll). TiVo is very clear about what they collect, how they collect it, and how to turn that behavior off it you want them to.

      I don't consider it spying because I'm telling them to do it! In fact, I'm paying them to do it. I like what they do with the information they collect, and if I didn't I could still use their scheduling and guide service without them collecting any data at all. They have no problem with that - though they point out that some of what they can do for you becomes less useful if your unit doesn't get to leverage their database as well.

      Of course, no, I don't have anything to hide anyway. But if I didn't want them to know that our household seems to watch an insufferable and odd mix of geeky tech stuff, geeky scifi stuff, and geeky outdoorsy stuff (yes, there is such a thing), I could prevent them from knowing that. Yes, if they decided to actually lie about what they're doing, they might still find out what I'm watching. But... so what? It's not like I can use TiVo to stalk Jodi Foster or post death threats on Jihaddi web sites. Yes, it might be embarassing to some to be caught only getting all of their news from Oprah, or from O'Reilly, or from Howard Stern - but, what - that's going to be shocking to someone? If you're using TiVo to control your cable box and record racier stuff off of HBO, well - happily the Taliban won't come and cut out your eyes (though someone from PBS may send you a scolding letter, or something).

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  7. Relevant question by ifwm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is there someplace I can buy a MythTv box, so I don't have to muddle through it myself? I don't mind learning, but I'd rather have a working box while I do so.

    1. Re:Relevant question by jvbunte · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://www.magicitx.com/ has a prebuilt MythTV setup with a small form factor for about $700, with options for more memory, larger hard drive, and remote. It uses the universally accepted Hauppage PVR250 hardware encoder (I own a 350 and a 150 and they work with all freeware pvr software I've found). You will need an external infrared sender to work with digital cable or satellite receivers.

      (I am not affiliated with magicitx in any way, just found a link to them on ebay.)

      --
      I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
  8. Different Account of it over on PVRBlog by beeudoublez · · Score: 5, Informative

    Read: http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/09/tivo_72_os_adds .html
    Quoted from one of the posters: This is a BUG!
    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.ph p?p=3233152&&#post3233152
    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.ph p?p=3236586&&#post3236586
    TiVo recognizes the Macrovision flag but there have been NO cases of a network or studio actually utilizing it.
    Even HBO whose websites says OnDemand stuff can't be DVR'ed... well, I could TiVo my OnDemand stuff just fine. I did all the time. That was before 7.2 and I don't have HBO any longer but it did work.
    Again - this is a BUG. Neither the local station or FOX intended for this syndicated rerun to be flagged like this.
    Are bug bad? Sure. But it's not worth getting all up in arms at TiVo about.

  9. And still nobody will care by Gothmolly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People will continue to plunk down cash for these products and services, because most people don't care about DRM. Even this won't really affect them, why do you think you can buy the Superbowl on DVD, or the World Series on DVD? People shell out $$ for seasons and seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc. So they DRM the shows on your Tivo after a month.. by then people have either wiped it, or bought the damn thing on DVD.

    Then there is the minority, who are not media consumers, who remain unaffected by this.

    Before the tinfoil hatters come out, and blame the ??AA or the Government, think: when was the last time you watched one of those old Star Trek episodes you taped 15 years ago "in case you ever wanted to watch them again"?

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  10. And if you don't kneejerk... by FortKnox · · Score: 4, Informative

    ... you'll see that this was a bug found by someone using their TiVo over antennae, not cable, which could have distorted the signal.

    The whole macrovision flag is for PPV shows, not regular shows.

    --
    Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
  11. And in other other news by Fastball · · Score: 5, Funny

    Viewership of cable and over-the-air television dropped dramatically when people realized there wasn't anything worth recording on to begin with.

  12. It's a bug. It's also a feature! Reconsiderations? by Alpha_Traveller · · Score: 4, Insightful

    TIVO has attempted to suggest the flags are a bug. While TIVO admits to making the technology available and active, not a single content provider is using it. That said: I do think it's a bad idea.

    As a TIVO owner, I have to insist that TIVO needs to remove this technology because content flags that require a time frame within which to watch the show defeats the purpose of my purchasing a TIVO in the first place. I'm their customer because I could timeshift on my terms. NOT theirs. Not Fox's. Not NBC's.

    I also want the ability to transfer it to another medium. If I lose that, TIVO loses me as a customer and no amount of lifetime memberships and HDTV versions of TIVO at a discounted rate will prevent me from leaving.

    If TIVO does not remove this feature, I will reconsider remaining a TIVO Customer, and both TIVO and all the content providers lose a "captive" audience member.

    --
    "Love is like pi - natural, irrational, and very important." (Lisa Hoffman)
  13. ReplayTV Tivo by digitalvengeance · · Score: 4, Informative

    I use ReplayTV and have never had any problems with content protection. There is even a great open source tool called DVArchive (at sourceforge) that lets one copy shows to/from the ReplayTV units and even stream content directly from the ReplayTV to any machine that supports HTTP streaming.

    I highly recommend both of these products for the geek who wants a great DVR and the freedom to DivX content at will.

    --
    How many roads must a man walk down? 42.
  14. Advantages to living in the cracks by Chairboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are advantages to living in the cracks sometimes. Harry Harrison once wrote that every society has rats, and even an incredibly advanced one would have the equivalent, even if it's a 'stainless steel' rat. By owning a ReplayTV instead of a Tivo, I feel like I'm living in that crawlspace, away from all the media attention that a company like Tivo gets.

    Replay got sued for the automatic commercial skip, but once that PVR had been thoroughly surpassed in numbers by Tivo, attention shifted elsewhere and now the only people who know about Replay are the owners.

    1. I can pull my shows off my Replay over the network, no broadcast flag.
    2. My 5060 (w/ the requisite hard drive upgrade, of course) still automatically skips commercials. They aren't taking away features I bought, and I appreciate it.
    3. There's no pop-up advertisements like Tivo has. There just isn't the money in doing stuff like that because the user base is so small (but the development effort doesn't get cheaper as a result).

    You can see some of the same stuff happening with Apple. The Macintosh has, lately, demonstrated less enthusiasm about adopting the various DRM flavor of the month technologies that the Windows PC has. This is in part because there isn't the same level of scrutiny, and also because the development effort of adding that stuff doesn't amortize across the user base as well. I'm sure there are other 'do no evil' type considerations and whatnot, but money is the real motive power to be reckoned with.

    I sometimes wonder what the implications are for the rest of society. Do I, the middle class anonymous guy have more freedom than the popular, rich people? Probably. There's no media scrutiny of my every move, if I had a T-mobile Sidekick, nobody would bother trying to break into it, I can post diatribes to slashdot without apologizing via a press release, and so on.

    Just a thought on the trade offs between being comfortable and caged in the living room above versus being a bit cramped, but living the freedom that only the unknown can claim...

  15. ReplayTV is better by waynegoode · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have two ReplayTVs. I don't have any of the problems you read about with TiVo--and I can skip past commercials, not just fast-forward. I don't understand why TiVo is more popular that ReplayTV. It is certainly is not as good.

  16. I don't think you get it... by Tetris+Ling · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What makes TiVo a great product isn't its PVR functionality, it's the thoughtfully designed interface. This is something I don't think people who havn't used TiVo really understand. From the way it rewinds a little after you stop fast forwarding to the schedule tables, TiVo constantly does things that make me happy. It's like TiVo is my friend. This, I think, is the reason that so many people (myself included) are fanaticaly devoted to their TiVo.

    I'm not saying MythTV doesn't have its benefits, but it certainly isn't a replacement for my TiVo.

    1. Re:I don't think you get it... by interiot · · Score: 5, Interesting
      TiVo constantly does things that make me happy. It's like TiVo is my friend.
      So how does TiVo's periodic reduction in features, in a way that's completely out of your control, fit into your conception of Tivo as your friend?

      MythTV is like a lifelong friend. It may not be as soft and curvy, and it might not flirt with you. But it won't wake up one morning and start deleting your belongings either.

  17. The free market can't work... by dpbsmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...if you have no way of knowing what you bought.

    The most insidious thing about DRM-enabled devices is their ability to change the deal long after you've made your purchase decision.

    No doubt there is a legal fiction that you agreed to some fine print somewhere that says, in effect, "I know I'm buying a pig in a poke."

    We need a "truth-in-DRM" law. If there were a conspicuous sticker saying "Warning: this device may not actually record the programs you want to record. There is no way for you to know in advance which programs you can or can't record. The fact that you can record your favorite programs now does not mean you will be able to record them in the future," then purchasers would know what they were buying and the free marker could operate.

    --

    "How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!

  18. Who Cares About You? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Lest there have been any doubt before, TiVo clearly does not care about its customers.

    TiVo website blame macrovision and even go so far as to say "Please do not contact TiVo Customer Support regarding copy protection related issues" is a total cop-out.

    I think every TiVo owner should precisely be contacting Customer Support about this. Jam up the telephone lines. How else is the company every going to know how their customers truly feel.

    Old saying: If you don't take care of the customer, someone else will.

    update: I just wanted to reiterate that yes, this was the result of a mistake on the part of the station providing syndicated shows.

    Don't consider this an update -- consider a warning! Your local stations already have this switch in place, and all they need to do is flip it now!

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  19. Re:What kind of logic? by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So if you purchase your cable modem from your cable provider, you shouldn't have to pay for monthly cable service? It is, after all, your cable modem. You should not have to pay to keep using something that you already own.

    You're muddying the waters here. There are two items being sold a Tivo and a subscription, just like a cable modem and a subscription to cable internet. Your analogy breaks, however, because if I buy a cable modem I can do whatever I want to it, and the cable company cannot. They can't come over and fill the USB port with glue and they can't remotely turn that USB port off.

    The problem is, in addition to changing their service, they are remotely disabling features in the hardware box they sold you. They are stopping you from using a specialty computer you bought by remotely turning off functionality. That is called hacking most of the time.

    The second problem is that if you sell a service, especially when you sell a lifetime subscription to that service, it is unethical and probably illegal to remove parts of that service from customers who have already paid.

    Of course as soon as Tivo started to introduce this DRM crap and tech-savvy user should have known this crap was coming. When a company starts introducing anti-features that make things harder for their customers (because they want to get an account with big cable company and sell bulk) then they have sold you out. That is one of the main reasons I did not buy a Tivo. The interface was nicer and the guide was easier to use than the EyeTV unit/old computer solution I did go with, but I can still record, store on my hard drive, burn to DVD, or transfer over the network anything I want. I archive my favorite shows to DVD, just like I used to save some on VCR tapes. I bought my hardware and while software updates from the vendor may be useful, I won't install any that remove functionality.

    As for a subscription, I get my guide information from TitanTV. It is free (banner ad supported) and if I ever need to I can go with a competing service.

    you can use Tivo without the guide.

    The question is not whether you can use the Tivo without the guide. The question is can you use the Tivo without the guide and store any program you record indefinitely or will it automatically delete via this DRM software they just loaded onto your bought and paid for machine, without your consent?

  20. Re:Ha-Ha by hexix · · Score: 4, Insightful
    And this is supposed to be so much better than taping? The time shifting abilities of PRV's are great when watching live shows, but really the only people for whom the PVR experience is "revolutionary" are folks too stupid to program their VCR's to begin with.

    You can't be serious. So here's your solution:

    1. Find a show you're interested in
    2. Look up the time the show should air in your TV guide
    3. Set your VCR to record that given timeslot
    4. Make sure there is a blank tape inserted in to VCR
    5. Turn the VCR off, it will not record if it's on
    6. Rush home from work to swap the tape that just got show A taped to before show B starts taping
    7. Return to step 4

    And here's the Tivo/PVR/DVR/whatever solution:

    1. Find the tv show you wish to record using the search by name feature, or hitting record button while it's on.
    2. Tell the PVR to sign up for a "Season Pass"

    Yeah, definitely for people too stupid to program their VCRs. I own a Tivo and I can say, it's got it's share of problems. I think it's idiotic that I need to pay 13 bucks a month just so it can know when a TV show is on. I already bought the damn box. But to say the idea/technology behind Tivo is useless - well I'd have to disagree with that.

    Now, if you wanted to make the point that TV isn't that great to spend the money on a device that records it, well you might be on to something there. But man, I love sitting down when I get home from work and having new episodes of shows I actually want to watch there waiting for me.

    --
    FiGZ.COM - A waste of perfectly good web space
  21. Re:You miss the point by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It's like cell-phone companies (to use your example) locking a phone to one service - users have figured out how to unlock many phones, or activate features the carriers do not want you do have.

    And the phone carriers aren't supposed to have an issue with that?

    Since this is the slow class . . .

    First. I buy a cellphone. Not rent, lease, or recieve as part of service, but buy. Purchase. Exchange money for. Not a subsidised purchase, an outright sale. Am I clear enough?

    Second, my service agreement with the carrier expires, lapses, ceases to be in effect, and I decide to shop around for new service.

    Now, I find another carrier with service compatible with the instrument that I own, you know, hold title to, legally possess. I decide to use this new carrier's service with my instrument. Is my old carrier supposed to have an issue with that? Maybe, but I don't care. It's my instrument. If they try to prevent me from using my instrument with another carrier, then perhaps they need to be investigated under the RICO act (in US). Get it? Or do I need to "dumb it down a shade"?

    --
    I am not a crackpot.