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Flash, Meet Sparkle

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the anything-you-can-do dept.

Robert writes "Microsoft finally released more information about their Sparkle product on a Channel 9 MSDN video. Sparkle is vector based XAML system for doing applications that may have traditionaly been done in flash. Ars Technica's Josh Meier has a few things to say about it, too."

37 of 493 comments (clear)

  1. I'm disrespectful to dirt! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Can you see I am serious!

    Get out of my way, all of you!

    This is no place for loafers.

    Join me or die.

    Can you do any less?

    For lucky best wash, use Mr. Sparkle.

    1. Re:I'm disrespectful to dirt! by The+Hobo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Mr. Sparkle: Can you see I am serious?

      Firefox Users: If the WMV doesn't work, try going tools, options, downloads, and on the bottom right click plugins, uncheck wmv, and if you don't want pdfs opening in firefox (meaning download first THEN open, I prefer this method, always faster and more stable) then uncheck pdf and anything else you don't want opening in firefox

      --
      There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
  2. Oh, great. by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now I'm gonna need SparkleBlock as well as FlashBlock. More browser plugin bloat.

    1. Re:Oh, great. by CyricZ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But will browsers such as Firefox even support this technology? I mean, there's no need to block it if the browser itself just plain doesn't support it.

      --
      Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    2. Re:Oh, great. by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Interesting
      It gets worse:
      Designers tend to get a bit out of hand and design things that are next to impossible to implement with current development platforms. Sparkle allows a designer to design the actual application by giving them direct access to the same objects the developers work with. The designer has complete control of the appearance and behavior of the controls without writing a single piece of code.
      Riiiight ... the same morons who make impractical designs in the first place and don't know shit about coding, design, etc., are going to have even more fun foisting their crap on us. Fuck, why doesn't someone just declare Microsoft a terrorist organisation and be done with it?
    3. Re:Oh, great. by red_dragon · · Score: 5, Funny

      You know, I'm beginning to doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
  3. XAML? by ggvaidya · · Score: 4, Informative

    XAML.

    "the user interface markup language for Windows Vista, the next version of Microsoft Windows." ... "XAML is a declarative XML-based language optimized for describing graphically rich visual user interfaces, such as those created by Macromedia Flash" ... "This Microsoft Windows article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it."

    1. Re:XAML? by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If it's based on XML, it had better specify a compression standard. Declarative prgramming a graphical object can make for some absolutely huge files.

      On OS X, there was this program floating around on Versiontracker that would convert any picture into an html document by converting each pixel into a table-cell that was styled 1px by 1px and colored. This prevened easy downloading of the image, but caused what might have been a 100k image to take up 4 megs in an html file.

      Of course, XAML is vector-based, but knowing the kinds of schemas MS likes to promulgate, the possiblity of bandwidth-chewing "rich web content" is quite real.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:XAML? by killjoe · · Score: 4, Funny

      "XAML" Microsoft for "XUL".

      Instead of taking an open spec like XUl and joining it, bettering it, and implementing it they chose to go their own way. Nothing to see here, runalong now and leave the evil people to their own devices.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    3. Re:XAML? by A+Dafa+Disciple · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For those interested in seeing a demo of this impressive family of products click here. The link on the article seemed to be /.ed.

      In any case, I don't think this is a "flash killer."

      There will always be designers who prefer what they grew up on or somehow prefer what Macromedia has to offer. That doesn't mean, however, that this future product of M$ isn't pretty useful and a bit impressive.

      Nevertheless, they had to go and do something similar to what they've done with Vista and hopefully won't do with Office: There are three different components to the entire software package: Expression - Graphics Designer, Interactive Designer, and Web Designer. They could have crammed it all into one package but Microsoft is quite wise (and quite annoying) with marketing strategies.

      --

      Falun Dafa is good!
  4. I'm disrespectful to dirt! by MiKM · · Score: 5, Funny

    Mr. Sparkle: A joint venture of Matsumura Fishworks and Tamaribuchi Heavy Manufacturing Concern

  5. Open source and alternative browser support? by CyricZ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are there any plans to include support for this technology into Mozilla, Konqueror, Opera, Safari, etc.?

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
  6. Product Demonstration by Frogbert · · Score: 5, Funny

    Product Demonstration here

  7. Not flash killer. by steelfood · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yet, here it is, with a name that sounds exactly like it's directly competing with Flash. Along those lines, why Sparkle? Flash sounds cool, but Sparkle sounds...girly.

    Otherwise, the concept actually sounds really cool, like the visual component of Visual Studio on steroids. Replacing the windowing interface with purely vector graphics sounds promising, though it also sounds a little too abuseable. Still, this might herald the beginning of an actually innovative M$, seeing that they now have Google and FOSS knocking on its doors.

    I wonder if it'll make use of the GPU to do the rendering.

    --
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    1. Re:Not flash killer. by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 3, Funny

      >Sparkle sounds...girly.

      Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion!

  8. Long Road by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If "Sparkle" isn't significantly more attractive as a creative tool than Flash, there really will not be any advantage for web developers and advertisers alike to use it. It just means another plug-in that people may or may not have, and advertisers and web developers can't aford this risk, given that IIS is not the dominant web server, and not everyone has IE. It's not going to be an easy road for MS.

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
  9. Sparkle is not a flash killer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot of people have tried to label Sparkle as a Flash killer but it is not. Sparkle is a new way to deal with winforms that allows custom UI design without coders running into the traditional limitations of development platforms. Think of it as a flash front-end to a full Win32 API and data-access. The fear I have is that Windows programs have always had a "consistant" look at feel. However, programs like Winamp back in the day changed the rules. These days more and more applications are starting to forego Microsoft UI guidelines for their own 3l33t designs which can be a pain to learn and a pain to script to. I hope it doesn't happen here but I would certainly, for example, expect a lot of Apple OSX-look knock off apps showing up once Sparkle gets out there.

    Anyway, check out the picture gallery if you can't RTFA.

    1. Re:Sparkle is not a flash killer by BitwizeGHC · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "programs like winamp"?

      How about "programs like MS Office" which since God knows when has come with its own separate widgetset? You see, those UI guidelines, those are for *other* programmers to follow.

      --
      N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
  10. How can you vouche for the security of this? by CyricZ · · Score: 3, Funny

    No offense, sir, but you seem quite convinced that this will become a major security flaw in Windows Vista.

    Does your opinion have any technical merit? Have you inspected the source code to the implementation of this technology? Can you provide clear examples of malicious uses?

    Or is your opinion based solely upon the past actions of Microsoft, with regards to similar technology?

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    1. Re:How can you vouche for the security of this? by Lehk228 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      historical performance is a reasonable basis for prediction.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:How can you vouche for the security of this? by tomhudson · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It's going to have to have access to the local filesystem (it's not just a web thing - its for scripting/describing the user interface) to read any local xaml files. It'll also have access to the registry to be able to do such things as save screen positions/layout, etc.

      Now, do you really want anyone to be able to read and write to your fs through an x(a)ml file? So, if it can do that, and since it is designed to "script" the native UI, what is to keep someone from cloning critical parts of the Vista interface, and fooling you into entering, say, your user name and password into their app? Or tricking you into installing other malware? Or getting you to agree to deleting your root partition when you think you're clicking on "save"?

      Like I said, it opens up new Vistas, literally.

    3. Re:How can you vouche for the security of this? by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Like it or not, Microsoft has started to take security very seriously. Their new products are built far better than their previous ones
      No, Microsoft does not take security any more seriously than in the past. They have to be kicked and dragged into continuing to provide security fixes for NT, claiming "sorry, its 5 years old - we don't support it any more". Would you take that from any other manufacturer of any other product? Like, say, your car? Or your fridge? Or your toilet?

      Microsoft pays lip service to security. That's all. Their "big security push" that they so proudly declaimed, where they spent a "whole month" concentrating on making their people more aware of the problems of buffer overflows, etc., was pure marketing bullshit. You can't change decades of irresponsible behaviour with one month of rah-rah rally-the-troops crap.

      If they REALLY wanted to concentrate on security in any meaningful way, they wouldn't continually fragment their own resources and create even more maintenance problems (7 versions of Vista? Fucking idiots - they can't even maintain what they've got now - this is a company that doesn't care about quality, or customer needs. Its ALL marketing, all the time).

      If they really cared about security, then they'd stop producing standards-breaking stuff (Internet Exploder) that requires web app developers to work 10x as hard to achieve cross-browser functionality, at the expense of resources that these same developers could be devoting to verifying the rest of their code.

      So, no, Microsoft will never really be interested in security. After all, security will remove both any perceived need to stay on the forced upgrade path, or to even use their software. It's not in their economic interest to write secure apps.

    4. Re:How can you vouche for the security of this? by NanoGator · · Score: 5, Funny

      "historical performance is a reasonable basis for prediction."

      Ah, this is an interesting rule. Well, in that case, I'd like to point out that next year will not be the year for Linux on the desktop.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    5. Re:How can you vouche for the security of this? by throx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, Microsoft definitely deserves it's share of criticism, but when people are idiots about it then it just rubs me the wrong way:

      They have to be kicked and dragged into continuing to provide security fixes for NT, claiming "sorry, its 5 years old - we don't support it any more".

      I challenge you to find any OS manufacturer that doesn't end of life their products after 9 years (NT 4.0 was released in 1996). Would you still support a 1996 version of Linux? How about OS/2? Maybe MacOS? Stop being a retard. Of course they don't have to support NT.

      Computer software isn't a "car", "fridge" or "toilet". Name any one of those things that doubles in power every 18 months. Oh yeah - you can't.

      7 versions of Vista? Fucking idiots - they can't even maintain what they've got now

      Probably the most retarded thing I've heard. They all share the same code base, dumbass. The only thing releasing 7 versions does is confuse the market, not reduce security issues, which tend to be confined to a relatively small number of apps, especially now the default login isn't Administrator and IE drops privs while running.

      How many versions of Linux are there?

      So, criticize away on MS, but don't make yourself a bigger idiot than their marketing team when you do it.

      --

      Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means

    6. Re:How can you vouche for the security of this? by Alioth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Software does not double in power every 18 months. Hardware is no longer doubling in power every 18 months either - clock speed hasn't been increasing, and the rate of integration is not increasing like it once was. Also, computers are remaining useful for longer - and Microsoft will have to deal with this. In 1995, a new PC was so vastly more useful than a PC made in 1990 in every respect. However, today, a 700MHz P3 made in 1999 is still a very useful computer for the typical things most users do (surf the web, write letters, email - that kind of thing).

      Microsoft are going to have to get used to the fact that people will start routinely keeping computers as long as they do cars - for ten years or more. So are the hardware manufacturers, for that matter. Even though I personally like having the latest, fastest new hardware - normally upgrading every 2 years, this time around, I feel absolutely no need to upgrade and probably won't for at least the next couple of years.

      --
      Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
  11. Re:Anyone against SVG? by Lehk228 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    />

      is still technically XML

    --
    Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  12. and then convert it back to Flash by Jotham · · Score: 4, Informative

    And then you can use this tool to convert the web based C#/XAML app back to Flash. http://www.xamlon.com/

    Hopefully Macrobe will take this as a challenge and drop in some 3d support and copy a few other features into their next version.

    Main differences here is Flash is focused on the web - while you can output an .exe it has its limitations (disk access, etc -- which requires workarounds like embedding it inside another layer (ie. C# app) and passing messages back and forth).

    Sparkle is for Desktop apps - and you can output for the web (but will limit your potential audience)

  13. WTFV by mr_gerbik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Watch the fscking video.

    You kids all want to bash on a new Microsoft product without having any idea what it is, what it can do, who it is for, etc.

    Sparkle != Flash

    Completely built on top of .NET for Avalon, Sparkle is a (even more than a) UI development tool for creating vector based interfaces. The beautiful thing is, everything you create is just a .NET object that can be manipulated by the developer.

    What does this mean?

    It means an artist can use an artist's toolset to create a beautiful fully functional front end, then pass it off to the developer to do the backend. No more mockups that can't be translated into a real application front end.

    1. Re:WTFV by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It means an artist can use an artist's toolset to create a beautiful fully functional front end, then pass it off to the developer to do the backend. No more mockups that can't be translated into a real application front end.

      That's right folks, no more of that annoying consistency between GUI applications, now anything that the guy down in marketing can draw is a workable GUI - just think of the possibilities. Microsoft is not a believer in consistent elegant or intuitive GUIs, Micorosoft is all about empowering developers, and graphic designers, and wackjobs with no aesthetic sense. You too can finally design and implement that stunning piece of GUI genius you always imagined.

      Have you ever noticed how everybody is a GUI design expert and always know better than everyone else how a GUI should look and function? Well maybe we'll finally find out what the world would be like if all those self taught HCI geniuses could simply create whatever they could draw. I'm sure it will be wonderful.

      (I can see that the Sparkle concept is both quite interesting and has some potential for good application, I just don't think having random arrogant artists all designing their own GUIs is one of those good applications Sparkle.)

      Jedidiah.

      --
      Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
  14. This is baaaaaad news. by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously folks, let's hope the world's web developers steer clear of this. Flash is cross-platform and it's one of the key tools that make the non-Microsoft desktop useful. I know, I know, as a techie you probably hate all those "punch the monkey!" ads, but think of that Linux box you may have set up for your Mom or something. Would she be happy with it if she couldn't play all of those silly cartoons that your aunt emailed to her? These things seem trite to us, but normal users demand them.

    XAML is a Windows-only technology, designed to make the Web one step more proprietary to Microsoft. Don't let them do it. Keep the web based on cross-platform tools. Steer cleer of XAML.

    --
    Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
  15. Re:the C. P. Snow Divide of Sciences and Humanitie by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Interesting
    If people really think that Microsoft makes crappy products,
    reality check time:

    I've spent the last 2 days on the road talking with people at 53 companies. Dragged along an engineer as part of his training. I'll be out there again tomorrow, and I'm sure that it'll be the same.

    Not one person said they liked using Windows. Not one! They hate Windows. They hate Microsofts Client Access Licensing schemes. They hate the viruses, the downtime, the forced upgrades, the patch hell, the crappy products - everything. And they also hate it when they go home. They want OUT!

    This is not a slashdot "talking-out-of-my-ass" opinion - this is the reality in the corporate world today. Pissed off doesn't begin to describe it. They feel they've been raped.

    Like I said, I've expended the shoe leather, gotten the face time, and this is the reality. Microsoft makes crap. Everyone knows it. Nobody likes it.

    There's no need for a "coming together." The world and Microsoft are heading for a divorce.

  16. Nice going Slashdot by DigitlDud · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Flash, Meet Sparkle" and then linking to an article explaining how it has nothing to do with Flash at all.

  17. Re:compatibility by Jessta · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seems microsoft is trying to tie web services to windows.
    ie. Google threatens microsoft because many google applications run in a web browser that could be running on any platform.
    Now if microsoft can get everyone using what is basically Windows GUI in all there web apps then those web apps will be tied to windows.

    Yay for microsofts World Domination Department. good job guys, thanks for making life difficult.

    --
    ...and that is all I have to say about that.
    http://jessta.id.au
  18. Will this benefit interactive designers? by Aqua+OS+X · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm a grad student studying interactive design, and I'm fairly intrigued about a software package seemingly being marketed toward "interactive designers."

    Currently, interactive designers are few and far between. It's difficult to find a -good- graphic designer who understands human behavior and software development.

    I know a ton of good developers who can produce ok interfaces (ok as in "ehh", not ok as in "good"); I know a slew of good designers who don't know a string from an array; and I know several HCI gurus who don't understand graphic design / visual communication from a hole in the ground.

    So, here are my questions... is Sparkle evidence of Microsoft's foresight? Does Microsoft realize "interactive design" is an emerging discipline? Are they going to cater to new designers who are capable of communicating with developers and contributing toward in initial development. Or, is Sparkle just another attempt at offering staggered babelfish communication between designers and developers who really don't understand each other's jobs?

    If it's the latter, I don't know how successful this product is going to be.

    This sounds fairly rad, but I'm somewhat pessimistic. After seeing the UIs for Windows Vista(TM) and Word 12, I doubt Microsoft really understands interactive design. How can they understand interactive design if they're not hiring real interactive designers, or at the very least, not incorporating them properly into the development process? My complaints about OS X's Finder pale in comparison to my complaints about those gift wrapped turds.

    Man... what I would give for one day in Redmond with executive management.

    Personally, I think the next big wave in software development is going to come from interactivity

    --
    "Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
  19. Re:the C. P. Snow Divide of Sciences and Humanitie by spoco2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "They feel they've been raped."

    So they
    a) either have no f*cking idea what that's like
    b) are prone to serious exaggeration
    or
    c)You're making it up and are one of those people that think 'George Lucas raped your childhood'.

    Come on, calm down a tad... I use Windows and MS products as well as a lot of OS (Eclipse, Laszlo, PHP etc. etc. ) products every day and really.. I'm not fuming, I'm not frothing... I really am quite happily getting along with my work... and so are all my colleages... and those in the companies we do work in... and everyone else I know.

    I agree with the licensing schemes, they are a load of absolute confusing and archaic crud... but the software (which is what we're talking about) is working fine for us all here thanks very much.

  20. To Clear Up A Few Misconceptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    1) Sparkle is not a technology. Sparkle is the codename for an application. Get it right.

    2) The technology is Windows Presentation Foundation (formally codenamed Avalon).

    3) It is not a flash killer. It is true that you can host Avalon applications in a web browser, and they will interact with the back and forward buttons of a web browser. It is true that Microsoft is touting this as a high-end replacement for HTML (as far as I can tell).

    4) Although details are sketchy, Microsoft has announced a royalty free OPEN technology called Windows Presentation Foundation / Everywhere. This means that you can run these applications in ANY web browser on ANY platform.

  21. I thought nerds were supposed to be smart! by WrongByDefinition · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Okay, enough of the mis-directed Flash-bashing. Is this just a nerd thing...the cool geeks on /. seem to hate Flash, so I hate it too!

    I mean really, do you blame photoshop every time you see a bad image? Video cameras for bad commercials? Shit, lets blame guns for war and give politicians a break!

    Flash is a powerful, relatively easy tool to use for developing everything from annoying ads to cool, slick, easy-to-use web applications and games. That, unfortunately, means that many clueless usability-impaired newbies can use Flash to create equally useless splash screens and seizure-inducing Ads. Maybe they should make Flash more like MIA or Lightwave, eh? Then only the smart, nerdy types could use it.

    Oh, and from what I've read Sparkle doesn't 'describe' the objects in XML as far as the Forms/UI goes, it uses XML to position, size, and adjust an object's attributes. XML files like that are like 5-10K for most forms. It isn't just a big document of vector descriptions...(take a look at Macromedia Flex if you want to see what they are trying to do)...so settle down on the 'my god the files will be huge' melodrama. It'll suck just fine being a Microsoft product without all the misaligned conjecture and assumptions.

    Oh, and since this is probably going to get modded into oblivion by some pissed off Flash-hater, I'll just add that OpenLazlo sucks...just what we need, learn yet another task-specific language to develop a code-embedded-in-design-godforsaken-mess-to-mainta in-application for the sake of OOP.

    There, done bitching, go on about your business.