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Toshiba to Demo New Fuel Cell MP3 Players
virgil_disgr4ce tells us The Register is reporting that Toshiba recently unveiled a fuel cell based mp3 player. The pump-less fuel cell technology was first discussed about a year ago but Toshiba said not to expect the fuel cell players to hit the market any time soon. Toshiba, however, does hope that the players running off the fuel cell prototypes, and their methanol cartridges, will get their public debut at CEATEC JAPAN 2005.
While I am excited to see fuel cells advance, I don't see the draw for this type of application beyond the niche of people with too much money.
As a poor college student, I avoid recurring costs as much as possible. Rechargeable batteries may suck in terms of energy density compared to this cartidge/fuel cell combination, but the cost of electricity is relatively cheap to the point of being free. Does anyone really want to run out and buy catridges constantly if they want to use their mp3 player every day?
Beyond cost, the fact that outlets are much more convenient than running to the store (or carrying around a bunch of spare catridges, negating the smallness of your mp3 player) is big turnoff for me.
How would you recharge this ? Methanol isn't too common a substance, partially because it is some nasty stuff. (Flamable, toxic, etc.)
So instead of some form of battery acid leaking if you somehow manage to kill your battery, you get methanol leaking which easily absorbs through skin. Aye.
That's ignoring how you would get whatever to refill it with anyway. Imagine having to buy a special methanol pack - which, of course, wouldn't be standard any more than current cellulars' batteries are standard. (Imagine the prices they could charge here - and they would have to, as transport to stores, putting it on shelves, etc. is much more costly than...) . But you don't have to buy a new battery each time, you recharge it (...than transport of electricity - factoring everything in.)
So perhaps you could refill using a bottle/can, much like cigarette lighters. Well yes, perhaps so... but consider traveling with this (think FAA regulations and whatnot)? And taking it with you everywhere ? Because unlike electricity, you can't just get this out of a wall 'hose' like you would electricity out of a wall outlet - and that's a good thing.
Of course if you're going out to the middle of nowhere, it would be easier to take a bottle of methanol with you than it would be to find a wall outlet. On the other hand, if you're going out to the middle of nowhere, perhaps your cellular isn't going to do you much good anyway. And if you're going to be in the middle of nowhere with your laptop, I'd imagine you'd have a car to charge off of, or at least a second battery, and probably a base camp where you -do- have some form of electricity available to you.
Some may claim that methanol is better for the environment - it burns clean after all... but from the source of the methanol down to the end-user, is it really that much cleaner ? Think extraction, purification, packaging, distribution, etc.
Don't get me wrong, it can be wonderful technology - but for cellulars ? I have my doubts. For laptops ? Maybe if my laptop would run for 16 hours straight on it instead of 2.5 hours (my laptop is not often idle). But that appears doubtful, and I'd still have all the above issues.
Metanol is not methane, but it still is a rather dangerous substance. Perhaps isopropanol would be a bit better in the long run. We all know ethanol is out because people would try to drink it.
On average, a butane refill cannister (for cigarette lighters) runs around $2-$3 for around 300 ml.
Judging from the yields, you could refill the fuel cell at the cost of one of those butane bottles for a month (and $2 a month is pretty danged cheap).
Would it take any major doing to redesign the fuel cell to process butane?
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
I'm more worried about the 99.5% methanol being combustable. It seems to me you are powering an mp3 player with lighter fluid. (And yes, I do realize methanol is harder to ignite)
The 3.5ml and 10ml configurations contain quite a bit of fluid.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Essentially this is just a word of caution, Toshiba has in the past had faulty designs on overpriced hardware and screwed over the people who buy their products. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass, Toshiba claimed guilt on both of their laptop design class action law suits.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
This is *such* a good idea - but I guarantee it'll get screwed up by the big corporates:
IN UTOPIA:
In an ideal world, there would be an industry-wide standard for the little container of fuel - there would be 50 manufacturers of them world-wide and they would be easy to find, interchangeable and CHEAP (just like AA batteries).
Their life is much longer than batteries and they pollute much less.
HOORAY!
IN THE REAL WORLD:
In the real world, they will be like ink cartridges. Locked up to the wazoo with encrypted interfaces - unrefillable - unique not only to one manufacturer - but perhaps even to one model in their range. They'd be impossible to find in any store anywhere in the world - and they would cost an absolute fortune. Since there is no way to replace them with regular batteries, you're completely screwed.
GACK! Give me back my battery-operated devices!
Which do you think we'll end up with?
The pressure to sell portable consumer items like MP3 players, PDA's, etc for bottom dollar will cause manufacturers to give away the players for much less than they cost - then do the 'bait and switch' trick and charge 100x more for an ethanol cartridge than they actually cost to make.
Consumers don't like that in printers - let's not let that happen for MP3 players, etc.
www.sjbaker.org
Now, you just made me think of something. I wonder what the required size for one of these is. That is, I wonder if you could make a AA form-factor one that spit out 1.5v. That might shake things up a tad.
funny munging
I'm assuming the fuel cell would be in conjunction with an AC adapter.
Fuel cell can't replace batteries. Even in fuel cell powered cars, there's going to be a battery in there no matter what. The one thing fuel cells can't do that lithium, nicad, or nimh batteries can is that they can be recharged with a conventional AC outlet. Also, by supporting AC outlets, I can conserve battery power and even recharge it as I use it.
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They have to keep the charade going. Fuel Cells were the "switch" in the "bait & switch" con Automakers played to get out of California's Zero Emission Vehicle mandate. The California Air Resource Board wanted automakers to sell Batery Electric Vehicles (BEV). GM was going all-out to meet the mandate, but then GM's visionary engineers got kicked out, and then they spent some $600 million lobbying against ZEV.
"We can't do BEV 'cause the batteries aren't good enough and people won't want a car that they can't instant-refill. But Hydrogen! Hydrogen is just like gasoline, except it's clean! Never mind that there's no efficient or economical way to get hydrogen, advances in 30 or 40 years will make it possible!"
Of course, now that ZEV is DeaD, battery technology has advanced to the point where an "instant" re-charge is possible...
See Perspectives on Fuel Cell and Battery Electric Vehicles, and this mailing list post on GM's coming demise ("good riddance").
CARB's Fuel Cell Detour on the Road to Zero Emission Vehicles
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com