End of the Road for U.S. BlackBerry Users ?

_termx23 writes "US BlackBerry users may have to find an alternative source for their email addiction after the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Washington rejected a request by Research in Motion to rehear its appeal of a patent infringement case brought by NTP, which holds a portfolio of wireless email-related patents violated by RIM." From the article: "As part of that litigation, NTP, whose only assets are wireless e-mail related patents, had been granted an injunction banning the sale of BlackBerry devices in the United States and forcing Research in Motion to stop providing e-mail services to all American customers except government account holders. While the court declined Research in Motion's request for a complete rehearing by all 12 of its judges, it did order the panel of three judges to review some aspects of NTP's patent claims." We've discussed this previously.

Comments

Racketeering

[BWJones]

What is it with these pseudo companies that are formed just to hold supposed IP? We have companies like SCO group, Forgent Networks and NTP who do not really have any products, but whose business model is to go out and purchase any and all "patents" they can get their hands on. They then do nothing with those patents until one day in the future, they identify some product or company that has a product that has come about through parallel evolution or innovation and then try and sue the pants off of them. Most of these companies employees are not doing anything productive as they are a bunch of lawyers on staff who are parasites on technology and innovation doing nothing but sucking the life out innovation and progress.

It has got to be apparent that this business model has nothing to do with innovation and everything to do with piracy and racketeering.

Re:Racketeering

[Mikkeles]

Well, this could just be the best thing to happen in order to reform patent legislation. An aweful lot of VIP are going to be very annoyed at not having Blackberrys (in the US).
To reinforce the point, RIM should also remove the government accounts.

Re:Racketeering

[SatanicPuppy]

Nothing to do with ethics, it's to do with our crappy IP laws. Ethically, the only thing that can be said about them is that they're following the law.

I do think, however, that all such IP claims, based on nothing, should be thrown out when someone else produces a viable product first. The idea is to protect innovation, not to protect a group of idiots sitting around in a room, patenting anything that flies out of their mouths. The idea of a thing isn't worth crap compared to the massive NRE that goes into making it work in the real world.

I wish more of these pie-in-the-sky morons understood that. Patented the idea of wireless email? You've got to be kidding. It's like they looked at all technology that was blowing up 10 years ago, and said, "Let's put 'wireless' in front of that and patent it."

Re:Racketeering

[brxndxn]

I also agree they should remove the government accounts. Keeping government accounts alive is like telling a cell-phone provider that they must lose 99% of their customers but keep the entire network infrastructure alive in order for the few important 1%. There are many doctors, paramedics, vets, teachers (private schools too if 'teacher' falls under gov't employee), hell.. the media that all use Blackberries. Why are gov't employees more important?

If I were a stockholder (if it's publicly traded or not), I would be fuming if they kept the entire network running - wasting precious company money..

BTW, I can get email on my cellphone that is not a RIM device. Is that infringing on this vapor-company's patent too?

Re:Racketeering

[putaro]

There used to be a requirement that you had to have "reduced to practice" whatever it was that you were patenting. The patent office used to require you to submit a working scale model.

With today's technology a simulation could be used to the same effect. In the case of a 3D chipset, a Verilog model could be required.

Re:Racketeering

[gabebear]

"For example, you couldn't patent a better way to do 3D graphic chipsets unless you could actually BUILD that chipset?
Effectively, you've narrowed the market down to a small cadre of companies."

If a "little guy" wanted to patent some non-obvious chipset improvement he wouldn't have to build a shipping product, just a prototype of his improved part. A prototype could consist of a computer simulation or FPGA and cost very little, it wouldn't need to run at full speed.

I think we need to move back to a patent system where you actually have to implement what you are patenting. It's really sad that it has gotten to the point where it is less profitable to actually make a product then squat on ideas and ruin those that actaully do.

Re:Racketeering

[hey!]

Well, that's not hard to address. You do several things:

1) Distinguish productive patents from non-productive patents. A patent would be productive if you can show you are using it in a product, or if it is being infringed.

2) Make non-productive patents expire five years from filing. If you can't commercialize it in five years, it's either not viable or you have no intenion of it.

3) Charge an annual patent mainenance fee structured to make it possible to work on commercializing a small number of non-productive patents but expensive to hold a large number of them. For example charge 500 * 2^n per year, where n is the number of non-productive patents an entitiy holds. The small time inventor with a single idea pays $500 per year, which in most cases doesn't take food off his table. An IP company with ten non-productive patents would be paying a half million dollars on the off chance they will be able to catch somebody.

Naturally, this is just fantasy. Democracy in this country is to rotten for any laws to be passed for the public good, unless it makes good TV.

Re:Racketeering

[cpt kangarooski]

Why are gov't employees more important?

Because people working in Congress like Blackberries a lot, and have made it known that they don't want this conflict to disrupt their service, or else. Doctors and so forth can't pass legislation to get what they want.

Re:Racketeering

[CreatureComfort]

and over $1M in lab equipment to test/debug the setup.

And how likely is it that someone without these resources is actually going to come up with an truly non-obvious and workable improvement on current designs? In addition, as noted in some other posts, a simulation or Verilog model would be acceptable. If you don't have that, or a very similar tool, you're likely not producing anything workable to begin with.

I don't think it's too much to ask for an inventor to at least produce detailed schematics from which the object of the patent can be created.

Re:Racketeering

[feijai]

[sigh] The people that get modded +5:Insightful these days (and at 0 I don't expect anyone to see this, argh)... A quick rundown about NTP. For more info, see the excellent article in The Washingtonian (DC's local magazine) debunking the crap RIM has been spreading.

1. NTP owns six patents that RIM is violating. These patents were submitted at the dawn of PDAs -- before the Newton, in fact -- and proposed the general notion of a wireless handheld which receives email, including protocols, long before this was an obvious notion.
2. The original patent submitter actually built devices based on these patents and hawked them at trade shows.
3. NTP's lawsuit includes the original inventor as one of its litigants. He's directly suing RIM.
4. RIM completely ignored NTP's requests for a year.
5. NTP wasn't formed to go after patents in general: it was largely formed to give the original patent submitters enough power to go after RIM for flaunting them -- and believe me, RIM was flaunting.
6. RIM behaved monstrously at court. They tried to starve NTP to death by dragging out everything, repeatedly lied to the judge (to the point that he issued a condemnation of them), and even appealed to Congress to throw out the case by fiat because they'd given Congressmen Blackberries and so if RIM lost the case it'd create a problem with "national defense".
7. RIM has been doing whatever they can to suggest that NTP is a patent whore.

I hate patent whores. They are evil. But NTP is not one of themI. They invented the concepts, produced products based on them, and were screwed by RIM. RIM deserves to fry.

Re:Racketeering

[SatanicPuppy]

Perhaps you would like to point out how the current system is better?

Right now we have a system that is set up so that the little man can go in and effectively block production of a product forever. This is idiotic. Period.

Patents that are never implemented should either be invalid or they should lapse as soon as someone else implements it. I frankly have no sympathy; if you can't get it done, then get out of the way and let someone else do it. End of story. This "IP Hostage" crap has got to go.

What if..?

[Dynamoo]

What if RIM was a US company and NTP was Canadian. Do you think that the judgement would have been different? Consider also that Microsoft has been found guilty of patent infringments many, many times and yet it has never had an outright ban on those products being sold or used.

Exactly what has NTP done with these patents? The USPTO keeps striking them down (see here). Did NTP actually use or license the patents to make a product? I can't think of any.

Of course, this was nearly all settled but seems to have fallen apart.

RIM vs NTP is a complicated case.. many patent cases are. But when it boils down to it, the approach doesn't not appear to be consistent between different cases. If the judgement remains, then RIM's revenues will take a huge hit, US Blackberry users will not be able to use their devices and I can't see any product on a comparable quality anywhere on the horizon.

What patent?

[Jesus IS the Devil]

The article is short on details. What patent are we talking about and how exactly did RIM violate it? And are other PDA/phones possibly violating this patent too?

I have an idea

[SQLz]

Email already exists....wireless networking already exists....lets put together email and wireless networking and patent it! Better idea. Breathing....on the internet? Can I patent that?

Finally something people will notice

[Nursie]

Finally we have a patent suit that'll hit non-techs where they notice. Blackberry devices seem to be the device of the moment with sales staff and management. A patent suit which disables their Blackberrys may just be noticeable enough that the public start to take an interest in the who0le patent issue.

Let us hope so anyway.....

While the USA Sues Itself Out Of Existence

[NZheretic]

The USA will fall behind because ever more intellectual property will be locked up behind a multitude of corporations and individuals effectively ruled by lawyers who are more interested in earning legal fees rather than bothering to actually manufacture anything.

Other Governments and Europe's bureaucracies will not hesitate to forcibly acquire the necessary intellectual property needed get things done for large projects. That's how the European airline industry managed to get the Concord, Euro-fighter and even the latest Airbus built.

Other countries and even Europe's parliament will also not hesitate to adopt more liberal intellectual property structures if you demonstrate that doing so will better benefit their economies as a whole, instead of just a few major corporations.

The USA administration and even more myopic major corporations will continue to let more and more manufacturing and service industry be off-shored resulting in importing permanent poverty into the USA.

You want to see the future of the USA? Visit the remnants of Detroit motor city works and despair.

This is bad

[zappepcs]

If NTP is successful at this IP game with RIM, they will have money to go after Smart Technology, and others that are using basic common sense, but which the USPTO managed to let them patent. That is the real problem. Anything that is a natural, anybody-can-see-it extension of a technology should not be granted a patent. Yes, that is a broad statement, and probably won't work everywhere, but seriously, asking for a patent on sending email to wireless PDA (or other) devices is just common sense, as in what else would you do?

The FCC has seen fit to take a mostly hands-off approach to IP networks, but there seems to be no sense of the common good at the USPTO. Perhaps that is what we need. This is not unlike the patent issue about navigating a menu on mobile devices problem that Apple ran into.... OMG, its just stupid, and the devil in the details of trying to remain legal about things is killing us. The USPTO needs to simply say, oh, ooops, mea culpa, sorry. and then the courts can send all the life sucking lawyers home again.

Thank you, God

[Ruprecht the Monkeyb]

Maybe they'll go out and re-possess all the damn things and I won't have to support them anymore. 90% of the people with Blackberries are clueless micro-managing morons who are so insecure they get panic attacks if they are out of contact for 10 minutes. Why is it the most unreliable and pain-in-the-ass technologies have to end up in the hands of those least equipped to use it and the most likely to blame others for their own incompetence.

Sorry. Monday morning and already three helpdesk tickets on goddamn PDAs. Apparently, they need, like, batteries, or power, or something and won't work without it?

Re:Thank you, God

[gowen]

Sorry. Monday morning and already three helpdesk tickets on goddamn PDAs. Apparently, they need, like, batteries, or power, or something and won't work without it?

Dude, if you don't want to help people with their technical problems, it seems pretty likely that you're in the wrong line of work...

Do you suppose there's a www.crossingguard.org where people post complaints like "Goddamn ignorant little kids, not being able to cross the road on their own"?

If I were RIM...

[hal2814]

"forcing Research in Motion to stop providing e-mail services to all American customers except government account holders"

Now if I were RIM and a branch of the US government handed me down this ruling, I'd shut the whole system down in the US. I'm allowed to keep providing service to government account holders, but I can't keep my business account holders? No thanks. I'll just kill everything in the US until we get this straightened out. Up yours, government.

Except government?

[Cyn]

I'm sorry - why is the government an exception? If you want to except people, how about *existing customers*. I work at a hospital, and just about every doctor here has a Blackberry. I wouldn't be able to ever get answers on any of my questions if they didn't have them - as these doctors are NEVER in their office long enough to sit down.

I don't see how some government official with more time and money on his/her hands than they know what to do with keeps their Blackberry, when people who are genuinely busy and using the damned thing are going to get shut out in the cold.

Is the government excepted just so they don't have to look at it from a "who's getting hurt by this"? Arguably, the point of the patent is to protect the creator so they can bring the product to market and profit from their research - well, NTP wasn't didn't and wouldn't - and their use of the patent now and under these terms explicitly HURTS consumers and the world in general.

Incidentally - I'm rather against the "patent for patents sake". Patents have a place, but they are all too often abused. There need to be some rules about sitting on your ass when you know infringement is in the works, so you can let it get big and profitable before digging in. I know this RIM:NTP has been going on for a while, but they didn't pipe up until RIM was well underway.

Forgetting the patent stuff

[bernywork]

I just want to comment that I think this stop providing e-mail services to all American customers except government account holders is a bullshit biased judgement. Admittedly it was the original judgement, but I only just noticed it.

Why should corporate America have to suffer but the government not?

When MCI went down the tubes, I bought stock, simply because I knew that too much of the Govt infrastructure, corporate America and the internet was dependent on their network, and that MCI weren't going to get turned off.

I can understand doing something to keep the company alive, but this just seems wrong. Why the double standard?

I see this as a good thing

[crass751]

This means that in meetings people will pay attention to me instead of their Blackberries. There's nothing I hate more than making some point and having to repeat it because half of the people in the room are checking their Blackberries.

Lin Yutang quote

[threaded]

When there are too many policemen, there can be no liberty.
When there are too many soldiers, there can be no peace.
When there are too many lawyers, there can be no justice.

Silver Linings

[dlefavor]

Maybe we'll get to rediscover the joy of being alone. Really alone

Maybe we can rediscover the pleasure of being out of touch.

Maybe my time can be mine again.

Yet another reason gutless CEOs will jump to MS

[natd]

Blackberry was about the only thing we used where MS have a stated interest in the market. Our CEO and other top level guys just loved their Blackberries. Forget other good technologies, we are loyal MS customers...except Blackberry

NOw they will see that they got their fingers burned, will recognise that this COULD NEVER happen to MS, so will play even safer next time.

It's pathetic.

I missed something....

[Trailer Trash]

Let's see, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8:

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

I guess I'm missing the "promotion" part here.

Patents Already Rejected?

[tabdelgawad]

This writeup from USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technolog y/2005-10-07-rim_x.htm

says that USPTO "has now issued preliminary rejections of the five NTP patents that RIM was found to have violated in the jury trial. The most recent of those patent office decisions came last week".

Maybe this is why the story isn't getting much news coverage; RIM will probably be OK.