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PHP Succeeding Where Java Has Failed
ficken writes "Web browser pioneer Marc Andreessen recently announced his prediction that PHP will be more popular than Java for building web-based applications." From the article: "Wooing programmers is nothing new in the computing industry, where players constantly jockey to establish their products as an essential foundation. Indeed, many credit Microsoft's success to its highly regarded programming tools, which make it easier for developers to write software that run on Windows. PHP has caught on widely. About 22 million Web sites employ it, and useage is steadily increasing. About 450 programmers have privileges to approve changes to the software. Major companies that employ PHP include Yahoo, Lufthansa and Deutsche Telekom's T-Online." Meanwhilie, Piersky writes "Zend has announced its rival to .NET and J2EE, with the Zend PHP Framework. In a press release, they stated that it will be 'A Web application framework which will standardize the way PHP applications are built. The Zend PHP Framework will accelerate and improve the development and deployment of mission-critical PHP Web applications'. This will for part of Zend's PHP Collaboration Project"
... until companies who need mission critical systems have someone they can phone when something goes wrong, and some form of developer accreditation. Don't kid yourself. J2EE isn't picked because of the language, it's because it's got Sun and IBM (through Websphere) behind it.
Doesn't PHP tend to be embedded in the page? I thought it was a more direct comparison to JSP than to Java. And like JSP I expected it violated the seperation of logic and presentation that I love so dearly. I've been avoiding PHP for the same reason I don't do JSP pages, I don't like code in the presentation layer.
I am prepared to have my mind blown here, can someone enlighten me?
Java "failed" on the desktop. I didn't know PHP desktop apps were taking over.
"Java is much more programmer-friendly than C or C++, or was for a few years there until they made just as complicated. It's become arguably even harder to learn than C++," Andreessen said. And the mantle of simplicity is being passed on: "PHP is such is an easier environment to develop in than Java."
This is just silly. PHP is far from "simpler" than Java. PHP *is* better suited to basic page generation tasks. Its syntax is easy to learn, and it's quick to get a page running. However, any sort of complexity thrown at the system starts making PHP look difficult and Java look easy. For example, I often write web applications that require that user sessions communicate with each other. Now this is stupidly simple in Java thanks to the use of Singletons or named derivitives. One can easily build a chat room, for example, whereas PHP begins to get a bit more tricky. Now throw really complex needs like PDF generation, Dynamic Excel Spreadsheets, XML/SOAP/XML-RPC/EDI communication, mainframe interfaces, off-brand databases, performance caches, and other large scale features, and suddenly Java doesn't look so hard anymore. PHP, OTOH, begins screaming for mercy.
One would think that Andreessen would understand how to use the right tool for the right job, but apparently not. He should be kept away from the press. He always manages to sound 50 IQ points dumber than he actually is. (A common problem when dealing with the press.)
I've done programming in PHP and in Java.
PHP is straightforward and easy, and most distributions have their own packages for it. Whereas with Java, the initial set up is overwhelming for beginners.
I learnt PHP years ago by myself, and it wasn't really that hard. Yet a few months ago when I was finally required to learn Java, the complexity of the Java frameworks (Hibernate, Spring, etc) tortured me for days before I actually knew what was going on. And it doesn't help when all the frameworks gives such a "bulky" feeling.
The learning curve of Java is definitely much higher than PHP.
Of course, I do agree that Java is much better suited for large scale web programming than PHP. It's much easier to do things cleanly in Java, and although PHP's loose typing is great for a simple 1 page script, I'd rather have the strict typing of Java when it comes to large scale projects.
Well, as a Java coder who's been coding almost exclusively in php for a year or so, I have to say it makes me feel better about my time spent. Php is definitely easy to work with, though that creates the opportunity for some seriously scary code.
I have to say, just not working with Tomcat is a plus (though I give major Props to the Fedora team for the option to install Tomcat right off the install disks)...When gcj finally catches up, I'll be a happy puppy.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I work with PHP and Java (and JSP and XML and enough other acroynms to choke a hippo). Andressen's comments seem so clearly aimed at server-side Java. PHP doesn't do client side, though there are projects underway like GTK and WinBinder. But still... Java was supposed to kill C, and it didn't. PHP won't kill Java either.
$nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
If hiring managers were looking for specialization, you were hiring at the wrong kind of company.. i would kill for developers that could develop and not just plug crap into .net or java
Yes, both PHP and Java are free - i'm not talking about the monetary cost of either platform.
I'm talking about the network effects of PHP being available on every shared host in the world.
Try to find a cheap, reliable tomcat hosting service. Then throw a dart at a google search for "web hosting." You'll find that outside of enterprise, PHP is the lingua franca.
So if you're a poor student or struggling entrepreneur looking to make an experiment or prototype, you will naturally gravitate toward PHP (same argument works for mySQL/postgre v the world). And guess who will populate the next gen of enterprise?
I primarily work in ASP.NET, and have done some work with JSP. Those are nice environments (well... ASP.NET is, anyway) -- but for many, many things, they're overkill. A robust OO model is nice for making programmers feel comfortable, but until recently the web has been an inherently procedural undertaking. ASP.NET and AJAX are putting an end to this, but the underlying technology remains stateless.
PHP is procedurally oriented, works well, and -- most important -- is free. I can't convince my boss to touch it, of course, but if some names get behind it, it might become a much easier sell.
I'll come straight out and admit that I'm a Java programmer, but I've used PHP and I will admit it is simple to use.
;) ). The problem is that Java is so much more than just JSP on the server side, it has an entire framework of technologies (some part of J2EE, some not) that make it a complete package. If they want to compare Java and PHP, it should bring in not only ease of development, but scalability, interoperability and security. I would have also liked to see the number of commerical websites running PHP vs the number of commercial websites running Java. For instance my home page has TorrentFlux on it, which is php based. So I guess I fall into that 22 million, although that's not really by design.
I find the comparison that the article makes between them is very one dimensional, it's saying that PHP is better than JSP, which I suppose is debatable (I prefer JSP
I won't try and say Java is better (because of my limited PHP experience) but if an author wants to convince me that PHP is better than Java, it's going to have to talk about more than simplicity and hype.
Oh, a lesson in history from Mr. I'm my own grandpa.
PHP is and will be continue to be popular with the masses simply because, like HTML, the entry barrier is very low. It will fail to make deep inroads at the high end for the same reason: The entry barrier is very low.
Sounds like a contradiction? Not really. The entry barrier for PHP is so low that we are seeing zillions of poorly written, insecure and unscalable PHP apps written by amateur programmers. Resulting in numerous security scares about PHP and contributing more than slightly to the infamous Slashdot Effect where a site that gets a sudden traffic surge craters as it runs out not of datapipe but simple CPU power. This scares the hell out of anyone who considers using PHP in the enterprise.
Don't get me wrong: It is possible to write good, secure, scalable code in PHP. It just isn't very common.
And because I'm bored and I like PHP, my reply to all of the above:
;^)
* PHP sucks.
PHP has functions for practically anything you can imagine. Of course, I'll get into why it doesn't suck in the replies below, as this is a bit too general.
* PHP is for n00bs.
PHP is for developers who want to get something done quickly. The syntax is very easy to learn, and variables are loosely typed, but in my experience this doesn't mean that the language is flawed; it means that one can code up something without having to worry about unnecessary things like pointers, variable conversion and the like. And to be honest, in website scripting I've never come across a need for more advanced syntax than PHP provides in my five or more years of using it.
* PHP is usually poorly written.
This, unfortunately, is usually true. Because PHP is easy to use, it is often used by people who don't want to worry about writing good code either. But like everything else, there are varying grades of professionalism. PHP *can* be written well, it's just a case of taking the time to do so.
* PHP is a scripting language and you can't do anything but write web pages with it.
Scripting language, yes. But it most certainly can be used for things other than websites.
* PHP sucks because the function names are inconsistent.
True, but this is why one has a manual. I've never been all that concerned about it.
* PHP is slow.
Actually, it's really not. Take a look at this comparison between different CGI modules for Apache: PHP actually outdoes Perl here.
* PHP isn't capable of working in a real enterprise.
I haven't had experience with integrating PHP into an "enterprise" situation personally, but I'll refer you to Zend's Enterprise PHP page for various reasons why PHP is indeed ready for the enterprise.
* Real coders use Perl.
Real coders use the tool that best fits the problem.
* PHP doesn't scale.
Now THIS is something I can definitely refute. I work for a company that creates mods for a PHP / Smarty-based online shopping cart known as X-Cart and I can tell you, PHP scales wonderfully, otherwise stores wouldn't use it as a base of their business operations. X-Cart is on the order of hundreds of thousands of lines of PHP code, and very commonly has tens of thousands of customers accessing it concurrently.
And yeah, I know you were joking, but hey, I was bored.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Web apps all have the same problem. They use a goddamn BROWSER as the application platform. This sucks.
I'm looking at a typical jsp right now. Its an awful demoralizing conflation of xml, css, jstl, html, and javascript-- all in one file. As developer, it sucks to work with and it is a major hassle to create a nice user experience with this trash y stuff.
I have not worked with PHP, but looking at the source from the browser page, I imagine the same problems apply.
Whatever happened to the "applet" concept? True, there were problems with it initially, but one would think that these problems could have been solved by now. Instead, the industry turned away from nice clean designs to the brutal mess that is today's web app.
...I can honestly say I avoid PHP at all costs. PHP feels like it was built by committee: there's no consistency in the language. Even with 5 I still feel like I'm hacking together web pages.
.NET on the high end, it's going to need new development tools--both for writing the code and useful libraries, stronger leadership, and a clear plan for the future. I don't see any of this happening in its current state. I consider myself to be a PHP outsider these days, and looking in it doesn't look so fun in the pool.
I feel like there's a lack of standardized libraries for PHP. I've used PearDB, but it's sure not ActiveRecord or Hibernate. Smarty's o.k., but I'm already developing in a template language for HTML pages, why do I need another one? It's like working with JSP tag libraries (which I find equally wasteful).
Fundamentally, I think the tight coupling between view, controller, and model that PHP naturally engenders is bad. Practically, I've seen where Ruby on Rails has gone in just a single year, and it's further than PHP's gone in the last 5. Things you can do in Rails in a few days take weeks of coding in PHP, even with the help of third-party libraries.
PHP has a strong foothold with small, inexpensive ISPs, which is the only reason I think that people still use it. Unfortunately, the "war" between 4 and 5 has really hurt the credibility of PHP moving forward. Does any ISP support PHP 5?
If PHP wants to compete against Ruby on the low end and J2EE and
The problem with Java is that you can't really integrate it with anything other than Java itself
.asp where most of the business logic is in the presentation layer.
Huh?
Not sure what you mean here. If by integrate you mean communicate with other languages there's things like CORBA and SOAP, if you mean call other shared libraries there's always JNI if you can't find a java lib to do something.
Until, as you say, gcj or any other piece of free software catches up, Java won't be usable.
Strange, I'm using it every day at work. Have been in one way or another professionally for 8 years now.
It died as a client-side language, and is struggling on the server as well.
You do realise that is no better than a BSD is dying troll right?
Just checked Moster.com. 105 java positions available within 50 miles of my house, 18 for PHP, 42 for perl
Now I'm saying that as someone who also uses PHP. I've been using it quite a bit lately and don't mind it at all, but we're talking apples and oranges here. Sure PHP can be used to write monstrously sloppy and/or insecure code, but so can any language. PHP can also be used to write clean easily maintable secure code.
PHP wasn't even close to java in terms of object oriented coding until PHP5 came out, which unfortuneatly has been very slow to appear on most 3rd party hosting servers and distros.
My only real gripes with PHP are the lack of a standard DB connectivity layer like JDBC. PEAR:DB and ADODB are close, but they still rely on non-php libraries so setting up a connection to oracle or sql server is painful. The other thing is a lack of type hinting for primatives. Seems kinda silly to have to do a check if something is an int or double in the method instead of just putting it in the method's signature. I'm know its a loosely typed language, but type hinting is there as an option for objects, why not primatives too?
I'm looking forward to PHP5.5 its going to have some real nice features that will bring it little closer to server side java and a little further from something like
"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
> Indeed, many credit Microsoft's success to its highly
> regarded programming tools, which make it easier for
> developers to write software that run on Windows.
Bleh. Windows doesn't even come with a compiler.
I think that's probably why a lot of developers like Unix so much - most systems come with a compiler as standard and the man pages give you all the APIs you need. Grab your favourite editor and off you go!
-- Mike