Coding and Roleplaying - Is There a Connection?

TossCobble asks: "With table-top roleplaying giant Wizards of the Coast (makers of Dungeons & Dragons, for those not in the know) broadcasting an open call for adventure designers and developers (including an entertaining developer test to gauge your own game-design talent and knowledge), I found myself once again considering the odd appeal of gaming for us programming types. It's interesting that something so free-form-ishly creative, socially dynamic, and utterly fantastical be fun for folks so grounded in logical programming. Of course, my theory is that gaming and programming actually have more in common than we might think. Tabletop roleplaying involves coming up with creative solutions to problems set in a clearly-defined ruleset, involve constant data-tracking and minor mathematical equations, and involve working together with small groups of people toward like-minded goals. Conversely, love of roleplaying can illustrate how important creativity is to good programming. What do you think?"

Comments

What do I think?

[nagora]

I think if Wizards of the Coast had an interesting idea they'd probably not know what to do with it, assuming that they recognised it.

TWW

Re:What do I think?

[Arandir]

AD&D is the Windows of roleplaying games, and WotC is its Microsoft. Unlike others, I'm not going to praise the halcyon days of yore when Gary Gygax ruled TSR, because that's where the problem started.

Re:What do I think?

[Arivia]

However, in comparison, D&D is willing to throw out the entirety of the code base every 10 years or so and say to developers: You're working to our new system. No legacy programming framework cruft in our new system.
(And the stuff that sticks around between editions is the stuff that *defines* D&D-without it, it would be like a GUI without the graphical part. During the really major revision that was 3e, a lot of thought went into this-for the history of all this, see the 3 years of Dragon immediately preceding 3e's release.)

Umm, poor people skills?

[fuzzy12345]

Admit it folks, building or exploring fantasy worlds has a special appeal for people who feel they're having less than average fun in the real world.

It's sad but true, and we know it.

Re:Umm, poor people skills?

[TrappedByMyself]

It's more of an attraction to certain modes of thinking and systems of reward than failing at the "real world"

You really have something there. Alot of geeks are conditioned to compare themselves to the popular crowd. They put themselves up against standards which they're not designed to meet, like an apple becoming depressed because it's not orange. They become 'losers', so they sink into this gaming world where they can win. On WoW for instance, there are so many people playing, that the field is very average. Any dedication will make you 'better' that alot of the other people you compete against. It's a huge ego boost to take out someone else in one-on-one combat. It's a well defined world, where winning is easy, much much easier than competing in the real world.
And I'm not talking about gaming for fun, it's the people who game for survival. The sad thing is that these reculsive geeks do have the tools to compete in the real world, they are just afraid to try.

//recovering gaming geek ;)

Re:Umm, poor people skills?

[daigu]

I don't know what kind of science fiction you read. But, I don't think most can be described as pleasant.

I also find it interesting that you leap to these conclusions. Would you say the same of people that do needle point? They should just stop deluding themselves and get more social and "adult"?

How about gardening, reading, golf, long distance running - or any other mostly solitary activity that people enjoy. What all these people need to do is just go to more parties and be more social?

Gaming is, in fact, more social than these activities, yet no calls you socially inept if you happen to be an ultra-marathon runner - even though as one you spend much more time away from people. What makes gaming such that you assume gamers are socially inept? Might it merely be a prejudice on your part? I've known people to make these comments because they don't find gaming useful - whereas running, gardening, needle point are considered useful in our society.

Further, it is okay for people not to like social situations. I've found that most people are fairly interesting alone. Turn something into a social situation where people do not know one another, and they immediately make themselve less interesting. I've wasted enough time talking about the weather with people and I'm extremely anxious that someone will take up more of my life wanting to talk about this inane topic. You know what I mean?

Other hobbies

[saintlupus]

I've noticed that cooking is also a big hobby for us computer nerd types.

Home brewing, too.

--saint

So does working at McDonalds.

[CyricZ]

Tabletop roleplaying involves coming up with creative solutions to problems set in a clearly-defined ruleset, involve constant data-tracking and minor mathematical equations, and involve working together with small groups of people toward like-minded goals.

That applies just as much to the workers at McDonalds and to farmers as it does to basically any other job that requires an ounce of skill. Before the 1960s such tasks were often called "common capabilities". That is, they were the basic tasks that pretty much anyone and everyone was expected to be able to do. It's only now, with declining education systems in many western nations, that we consider mastery of such menial tasks to be an accomplishment.

future conditional thought processes

[G4from128k]

I think both role-playing and programming involve a "what if I do X" future-conditional thought process. Controlling a character in game or a byte-character in a program are not that different. They both require some explicit thought of future consequences of scripted actions in the context of a mechanistic system. This is especially true for DMs or scenario developers who must constantly think about how their setup will affect the player's future actions to guide those players toward some attainable game goal.

Thinking abstractly about "what-if" is key to creating code that does what you want and expect it to do. Thinking about what-if is fantasy, by definition.

It's cultural

[scenestar]

It's like asking, why do football players attend keg parties? Coding and roleplaying are part of geek culture

Building with your mind

[phamlen]

In both programming and FRPs, you can make things happen so long as you can imagine it correctly. As someone once told me, "Programming is like building with pure thought-stuff." Everything happens in an alternate realm from the physical world (the computer's memory or the group's imagination) and isn't limited by what you can do in the physical world.

I think people who are attracted by programming's allure of creating programs just by thinking are also attracted by a FRP that lets you create a world with your own imagination.

-Peter

Maybe "systems" is the common thread?

[FlyByPC]

Geeks in general, and programming geeks in particular, seem to be very much interested in systems of all sorts. Not just systems in the IT sense, but any group of objects and/or forces with interactions between the elements of the group.

The combination of various skills, languages (another reason a lot of geeks like Tolkien), lands to explore -- and above all, magic -- comprise a field day for the geek intellect.

Either that, or it's the improbably skimpy leather armor those amazons are wearing...

socially dynamic? quite the opposite, in a way

[Fross]

the social aspects of roleplaying are far less dynamic than real social interactions, because they are so much more controlled. you understand what your fellows are driving towards, the dialogue and situations are often cliched, or at least familiar, and there is less at stake, less responsibility, socially - if you make a jackass of yourself you can just claim you're roleplaying, and you already know that the people you're playing with are of a like mind to yourself, especially given the intelligent nature of a "game" such as RP.

there are less unknowns, less uncertainties - and this is what is usually a problem for the socially inept - lack of confidence because of lack of certainty, which is what comes across as nerdishness.

add into this the familiarity with the subject matter through books, films, and more recently computer RPG games, and the (to the mainstream) hurdle of a fantasy world is a non-event. the other aspect, which certainly will appeal to the mathematically design minded (not to mention the neurotic obsessive-compulsive detail freaks) is the range of stats, rules - *formal* descriptors of how the world interacts. if someone chucks a baseball at you, it's not down to something an unsporty nerd has little practice/familiarity with (ie catching it with his hands), but rather something quantifiable and determinate, stats, modifiers and a dice roll.

this may sound harsh, particularly as i'm a programmer and have been a roleplayer quite extensively myself, but in our heads we're all great actors, witty people, conversationalists, sometimes we just need to find the right outlet for it to come out in.

Mmmm, no

[Reality Master 201]

Being a successful programmer involves more than just applying abstract rules. In fact, the most significant factor in one's success in real world programming is not ability in solving problems (creatively or not).

A succesful programmer is one that can sucessfully characterize and identify a problem. Far too often, I've seen people jump right into solving what they think the problem is (often during a meeting with a client), without first doing the (admittedly boring) legwork of ensuring that you understand the domain of the problem and the specific things that require solutions.

Unless, of course, you're talking in the realm of 133t h4x0r programmers. But there, the concern is being the hot coding stud, not in delivering a workable, maintainable, stable software product.

Re:roleplaying?

[captaincucumber]

I have a question. Why are Ask Slashdot questions always so stupid? They are more interesting for their amusement factor than for their content. I especially enjoy the self-serving questions like the high school kid who is so much smarter than his peers and asks slashdot "do other people have this problem? How do you cope?" or the unemployed engineer who says "I'm so smart and qualified but I can't find a job. Anyone else having this problem?" I have a question that I've been meaning to submit, but haven't gotten around to it yet:

"Why do I have such a big penis? Does everyone else have a big penis or am I alone in having such a great big penis?"

Umm, no?

[Psychochild]

How did this garbage get modded "Insightful"? Wow.

First of all, creating a fantasy world in a computer game is an incredibly collaborative effort these days. The days of some lone geek sitting in his garage making a game is long over. Even small casual games have teams of at least 3 people. You need a minimum amount of people skills if you're going to create a fantasy world in the medium I'm most familiar with.

Now, let me give you some real insight: a book doesn't have to be set in a "magical fairy realm" or "deep space" or "an alien planet" to be escapist. Hell, most "mainstream literature" is escapist; why do you think people read books like The Hunt for Red October or Patriot Games? Because they're fascinated by Russian sub or missile technology? No, because they want some adventure and excitement in their lives. They live vicariously through the spies, CIA operatives, and other characters as much as the person reading A Game of Thrones lives through the knights, schemers, nobles, and other characters in that book. Of course, that book isn't all "pleasant", and hopefully you didn't identify too closely with the character that gets beheaded or died of a seemingly minor wound....

So, stop with the tired "lolz @ teh dorks!" attitude already. Everyone engages in a bit of escapism once in a while. And sometimes people read a book because it's genuinely a good story, whether it's fantasy, science fiction, or "mainstream".