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The H-1B Swindle
An anonymous reader writes "A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill." From the article:"When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573 ... H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. 'That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners,' the report notes. "
What's beneath it is probably some hideous unethical, if not illegal, practice of hiring only H-1B people into jobs.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Is anyone suprised by this? ..
My employeer scours the fourth world for masters degrees, sponsors thier visa, then pays them $10/hour and forces them into unpaid overtime. After all, if they complain, the company can just stop sponsoring thier work visa
Unethical? Yes.
Illigal? Not in this state.
-Annonymousguywhodoesntwanttogetfired
Has anyone considered the cost to aquire and hold H1-B1 papers for a overseas worker? What about when the contract is up? The company is responsible to return the worker, who pays for that?
WTF? Over?
...I'm a foreign national working on an H1B. I mean, at the pay I get versus what all the pundits, reports, studies, and "in the know" people say I should be getting, I must be.
Hey, wake up, pay sucks everywhere. Even for those born here. Consequence of the extended hangover from that double bubble burst...
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Do you want those people paid 20k less here, where they will spend some of it on cars, food, etc, or do you want them paid 40k less in India/China? It sucks, but about the only thing that stops this race to the bottom is us being better.
We need to invest in schools and teach our kids skills (like how to reason). It's the only realistic way to prevent sliding into mediocrity.
That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners
Yet, the oppressed foreigners keep taking advantage of the visas. Shame on the evil corporations for taking advantage of these poor people. To think, they could be spending more on their own countrymen and supporting their grossly disproportionate wages.
Rather than say, "Hey, you're trying to pay less for programmers!" we should be saying "Hey, are we getting paid too much? Are we pricing ourselves out of positions?"
Don't get me wrong. I've been a programmer for quite some time and it sucks, but supply and demand concepts aren't limited to one country. The world is getting smaller and more connected. National economies are merging into a world economy. No amount of artificial propping-up by local governments is going to keep it from happening. Get used to it.
The fact is that the real threat is outsourcing overseas. Having some quality people coming over is a good idea: it just needs to be be better regulated. For example outlawing employing H1B workers as contractors would be a good start to get rid of most sweat shops: that brings most of the bias.
In my group we have three H1B guys. They make more then most others and they are worth it. For cheap labor we outsource to India (with pretty bad results so far - but investors would not budge. Idiots.)
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
... and I refute the implication that I'm treated like a 'slave' or 'indentured labourer.' Yes I might make less than a US-born programmer, but I make a hell of a lot more than I was getting in the UK. Plus, I get all the benefits of being in California (cool lifestyle, nice weather, affordable stuff, etc.). And as someone else said, it's better for you guys that I'm here spending my money and paying taxes here rather than remaining in the UK and doing outsourced work from there.
On a side note, I can't vote here despite paying my taxes to Uncle Sam, but I can vote in UK elections by mail.
The other down side is that if my job goes, my visa goes with it soon after and I'm on the next plane back. However it becomes a lot easier to go through the green card application process when you're based here.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Right, but if skill was not a factor, as the article seems to imply, then virtually all H1Bs would go to Mexicans, and virtually none would go to India. After all, why go to the trouble for India, when Mexico is thousands of miles closer?
Skill. Whether the skill is English or C++. There something about those crazy India people. They got skillz I'm afraid...
I've been in the industry for about 10 years now, always surrounded by H-1B workers. They've all been WELL paid (software field). Moreover, INS (now USCIS) has a prevalent wage requirement for H-1B workers. I believe that wage is about $75K for software engineers currently. Thus, any employer offering a salary below this rate to a software engineers should/would be denied the H-1B visa.
So, I'm not sure if what you are saying is really true, or.... I'm not going to get into that.
Simpy
I am an H-1B holder and can confirm this. Moreover H1's usually need a few years of experience to get into the country as well. I am often amongst the best paid people in the office because I am often one of the most experienced people.
As others have pointed out the data is probably very skewed time wise. My recently approved green card application was for experience and salary levels from 2001 due to some quirky laws around the application.
I think your point is valid, and much closer to the truth than a lot of this scaremongering.
I came to the US in 1997 on an H1B at a starting salary of 80k with a few years experience. By no means was that a low salary. 30k later, and I have a green card so I don't get counted in the H1B figures.
My experience has been that while there may be no shortage of people who can code in a computer language, there is a shortage of _quality_ programmers. During the boom, that is what drove the H1B influx, not some desire to save cash, at least in Silicon Valley. These days however I see more companies unwilling to fund an H1B application and require people who already have work authorization. Probably there are plenty of green card holding ex-H1B's left over from the boom.
Look to the Universities and what they are churning out: Java programmers with barely a whimsical understanding of the basics of CS. You better believe these guys won't get hired into places that are looking for top talent.
Of course, you're probably used to the idea that in a socialist country, your taxes actually go towards contributing to society. Here in America, your paying taxes does nothing but offset tax breaks given to the wealthy, incentives for companies to do business abroad, and pursue a foreign policy of domination and world hegemony. In the meantime, most of us are forced to take jobs that we are overqualified for and underpaid at just to get some kind of health insurance for our families. After all, the poverty level is set ridiculously low in this country. You have to be almost penniless to qualify for any kind of government assistance (or super-rich, then the government will gladly throw tax breaks and incentives your way). There are days when I have actually had to miss work because I couldn't afford gas to put in the car because I spent it on food. I miss qualifying for food stamps by something like $2000 a year income. Think about that. Between my wife and myself, we have three jobs, and still every last penny we earn goes to pay rent, utilities, gas, and food. I am three months behind paying bills because we had some emergency medical and dental bills come up, and we have insurance! Only in America! Honestly, look at it from my perspective. I'd love to get a job in Germany and have all the benefits a German citizen would have while I'm there. And I speak better German than most guest workers in the US speak English! But it would never happen... it doesn't work like that. We are entirely too accommodating to other peoples of the world without any sort of reciprocation. We are being taken advantage of, and we are the ones hurting from it. Forget Germany for a second. Do you think that Chinese companies are going to try to hire out-of-work American programmers? And do you think the Chinese government is going to provide all the benefits of society to the American guest worker, including equal protection under the law, that America provides to its guests? No!! It's about time that we started demanding an even playing field on the world labor stage. American workers have a right to the same standard of living as European workers. And we also have the same right as the Europeans to keep foreigners from taking our livelihoods away from us. Excuse me if you think I'm being a little harsh on foreign workers. I don't mean to be. My wife is a very recent immigrant from Africa. The problem is not the foreign workers. The problem is America. And the H1B program is just one more symptom of a larger problem of America selling out its own people so that the elite can amass greater fortune.
Me: These companies would rather have completely open borders in the US where everyone from everywhere could freely enter.
.01% of the world instead of the .005. Excuse me for not shedding any tears.
.01% amongst the likes of Bill Gates, aka richest man in the world.
You: That would kind of be the definition of "free market" any market that doesn't fit that description would be a "non-free market".
The idea that the US labor market is not currently free is pure rubbish. Companies are free to hire any worker in the market who they want. And workers are free to work for whatever company in the market that they want. Further, the fact that companies may not hire just anyone from outside the US market and bring them to the US to work does not mean the US labor market itself lacks freedom. That is a discussion for immigration law, not "free market" labor.
What we have here are companies attempting to re-define the market to their advantage. That is the definition of market manipulation.
Me: Also, the majority US citizens, both Democrats and Republicans, don't want any more foreigners entering the country to take away jobs. If anything, people want the foreigners to leave so we could actually get some work and decent pay raises around here.
You: Pretty much not going to happen with capital growth being the goal for everything these days. It's just too damn ineffective to pay some people several times the average wage just because they happen to be born in a specific place.
You must not be from the US. We happen to be a democratic republic. Our representatives do what we want. And if we want them to cut immigration and enforce existing immigration laws, then they better do it. Otherwise, they will be next in the unemployment line.
The good news is that the world as a whole will get a standard of living. The bad news is that USian programmers will have to settle for being in the economic top
I knew you weren't American. Any American programmer knows they're not in the top
These companies do not want to deal with the free market as it's currently structured.
If you're requiring a certain structure, it ceases to be a free free market. What you're attempting to do is prop up the economy by limiting the number of competent workers that can come in and work here. This mindset has failed miserably in the past. It happened to the textile industry. It happened to the steel industry. It's happened to the automotive industry. Now, it's hitting the IT industry. The standard of living will go down (or, more likely will remain stagnant until the rest of the world catches up). You simply don't get it. It will happen and there isn't a damn thing that you can do about it.
* You can blame evil corporations all you want. There isn't a single one that can steer a global market. They aren't looking at controlling things. They're worried about survival in a future that you are incapable of picturing.