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Massachusetts' CIO Defends Move to OpenDocument
Mark Brunelli writes "A public hearing concerning Massachusetts' plan to dump Microsoft for OpenDocument featured a fair share of controversy as the state's CIO tried to fight off naysayers. Linda Hamel, the general counsel for the Massachusetts Information Technology Department (ITD), suggested that groups that oppose the OpenDocument file format standard might be influenced by Microsoft." We reported on the bounce back against the OpenDocument move this past weekend.
"Bottom line: OpenDocument is bloated. Just like we like things in government."
Most likly they think Word Processing IS Microsoft Word.
The early audio recording of the two hour meeting between the CIO's office and various members of the vendor population including the idiot... I mean, the representative of Microsoft, is really amazing. If you haven't heard it, I suggest you do a little digging and find it.
The CIO did make one very interesting statement about money. $50M in order to get Office-12, because of license fees, OS and hardware upgrades, for something that cannot even be tested at this time.
In comparison, to roll out OpenOffice to every state employee, including training (which never seems to be in the pro-Microsoft column), $5M. Mostly because there is no hardware or OS upgrade requirement since OpenOffice runs on everything. Today. Now. Including using the document specification they really want, which Microsoft says they have no plans on supporting.
Fascinating. Foot, rifle, Microsoft pulls trigger.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
This line kills me: "OpenDocument file format standard might be influenced by Microsoft." Why?
It's currently reading as - "suggested that groups that oppose the OpenDocument file format standard might be influenced by Microsoft."
Of course the meaning is that some believe that the big backlash recently (with every "grassroots" group announcing their beefs with the move to OpenDocument) is the result of Microsoft lobbying, which isn't an inconceivable idea.
Later on in the press conference she goes on to assert that rain is wet and and that 2 plus 2 does indeed add up to 4. She did not, however, make any comments concerning what you get 4 of.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
Being from Tax-achusetts, i am glad to see that the state continues to move this way. This saves tax payers money, which in the end benefits everyone in the state. But also it is the state realizing that they are doing something that will help allow easier (still far far from perfect) access to state records which we have a right too.
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
I would think she'd lose all claims to credibility by making statements like that. For one, she's making an ad hominem (although not against a singular person in this case) argument by arguing that the groups are wrong because they are (allegedly) supported by Microsoft. That argument falls apart, logically, because someone could offer a simple counter statement of "so, why does that make them wrong?"
I do find it interesting to note that the National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science is criticizing the move and I think they offer legitimate reasons for using Microsoft products-- that is, until OpenDocument supports the same braille readers and other screen-reader programs. If the blind state workers are using MS products and the other state workers are using OpenDocument, I'd think that might cause some problems. The article didn't mention any specific fixes for that, so hopefully they thought that one through. However, based upon the fallacious logic, I'm assuming they (or at least Ms. Hamel) don't think things through all the time.
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
We reported on the bounce back against the OpenDoc move this past weekend.
OpenDoc is not the same thing as OpenDocument. If you need to shorten it, you can say ODF.
Here's the thing though -- It's conceivable that Microsoft, as a means of encouraging people to upgrade would cut off support for older document formats and never release the souce code for the programs that generated the original file format. And in this conceivable future, we would not be able to run the old binaries conveniently or at all. It's a problem.
With a lot of programs that utilize OpenDocument format, the source code is readily available and can be recompiled for whatever platform is being used as the time. Further, the precise specs for the file format is available for adaptation into whatever platform exists at the moment.
In short, propritary lock-in and/or lock-out is an important fear that Microsoft is not and will not address. Open specification is just about the only way to avoid this.
Exactly. If only you had access to the document specification, then you might be able to do something to fix that problem.
My other car is a Popemobile
At least, being open source, you won't be without recourse. Can the same be said of Microsoft's new Word formats?
I'd work more towards .pdf in the near-term and see how these openDoc formats shake out.
PDF is fine, but not so great if you want anyone to be able to edit it down the road.
But if it were me, and if I play CIO for a moment, I'd make DANG sure I get it right before converting millions of documents.
.pdf in the near-term and see how these openDoc formats shake out.
Remember that Microsoft has made OfficeXML the default file format in the upcoming Office 12, so some sort of shift seems inevitable. That sort of transition was probably taken as an opportunity to consider alternatives, which is how OpenDocument got its big break.
I'd work more towards
PDFs are one of their file formats (in fact it led Microsoft to support PDFs natively in Office), however it's more of an output format rather than a working format.
PDF is only good for fixed content. Anything that you're going to be working with the data in you can't put into a format like that! If it's headed for an archive, then PDF is a fine way to do it. If it's a MS Word .doc now, then it's probably best to convert it to an editable format, so OpenDocument.
Realistically, if your project to convert things is happening now, what else would you convert to? OpenDocument already has good support, is a very clearly defined format, and is unencumbered. It's also easy to work with to generate documents from other data.
FSF have a lengthy and interesting report from yesterdays meeting
Please help publicise swpat.org - the software patents wiki
As one working right under a CIO - that's usually not an issue. Remember, CIO stands for "Career Is Over". :)
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
You're missing the point. The Mass. move isn't to OpenOffice, it's to OpenDocument. What they choose to run is a different story. OOo and Wordperfect, for example, plan to support. Microsoft only plans to import it, I believe, and that only recently. Microsoft if fighting the standard. The idea that this state government is moving to OOo is an extension of the MS PR machine. Get everyone worried about losing Office and an outcry will ensue. Nevermind the fact that they're locking themselves into perpetual licensing fees and a proprietary format. Hey, the vendor's benevolent so what's the harm, right?
More people, more companies, and more governments need to really stand on MS's neck on this and get them to support standard formats. MS doesn't want to because then they have to TRULY compete with other software. Now if Office is so great, why not just support the format? Why not say, "okay, we'll support it and beat you on equal footing!" The mark of a champion is that he will beat you at your best. MS wants to take out your quarterback's legs, get rid of the instant replay and challenge system, AND make you play on their home field before they'll even join the game.
When are people going to realize they are the software industry equivilents to rapists and pedophiles.
For details and analysis you can't beat Groklaw's coverage, including notes by two bloggers who attended the meeting.
Also note that the hearing was convened by a senator who seems to confuse "OpenDocument" and "OpenOffice" and "open standards" with "open source software".
"Never mind that every alternative to Office is currently buggy, slow, broken and lacking in modern features!" -I assume this was a typo.
Surely what you meant to type is: "Never mind that every version of Office is currently buggy, slow, broken and lacking in modern features!"
Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Frankly, they could take a portion of that $45 million cost savings and dedicate it to making those blind- and deaf-user devices work swimmingly with OOo.... and still have enough to pay Manny Ramirez's salary next season, assuming he doesn't get himself traded to the Angels before then. ;)
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
Microsoft's position:
* Every new box pre-installed with Windows $100
* Every new box pre-installed with Office $200
* Having the option of following up an OS upgrade with an Office Upgrade that renders old file formats unreadable: priceless.
Everyone else's position:
* Looking for (and finding) tools to make OpenOffice compatible with any imaginable disabled-persons' enabling tool: probably as little as 10 minutes
* Off-sourcing production of a filter to convert current word document files to OpenDoc: a little embarassment
* Having government-provided and -required documents in a format that will never be submerged by near-simultaneous OS and Office Tools upgrades: priceless.
The cost to a society of having a monopolist control the format that its documents are published in is as desirable as it would be to have to continue paying the Gutenberg family for the privilege of having your book printed in the 21st century.
nuff said...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
You, sir, are either grossly misled, or are an intentionall MS shill.
It isnt about forcing people to not use MS Word - its about setting a fair, open, and public standard for the file formats used so that *everyone* can decide what tools to use. Making MS secret format the 'standard' *forces* everyone to use Word, unless MS completely and fully opens the specification for it.
People can use MS Word if they really think its the best tool for them - but they must have a way to read and produce the standard format. That can either mean MS adds native support in Word, or they use a third party plugin or convertor.
MS was recently quoted as suggested that 'customer demand' might drive their decision to support OpenDoc. Hello? MS? MA is a customer. They are demanding it.
Once MA stops buying new Word licenses, MS *will* add OpenDoc to Word, and MA can buy Word again. But MS will *only* do that if they are absolutely forced, as it sets a precedent, and once that ball starts rolling it will mean an end to MS lock-in. Word may still be popular, but no one will be forced to use it.
Yes, converting away from single-source vendor lock-in is hard. But the longer you wait, the harder it gets, and people have been blindly waiting for pretty long already. But once you finally get it over with it gets easier and less expensive in the long run, and switching software in the future (for whatever reason) is no longer a huge issue, since any choice has to support the existing standard format.
My big complaint about OpenDocument Schemas are that they rely on RelaxNG that has poor support in developer tools. It also adds another layer of confusion for customers who are veeery reluctant to accept non-W3C standards.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Oh, wait, the OpenDocument link has changed since I originally made this rant a month ago, now Sun apparently makes a blanket grant. On the other hand people were pushing for this before the end of september as well. My original point however is that even though Microsofts schema license may not exactly be open-source purity it seems quite sufficient. This looks like a mindless OSS crusade to me.
Microsoftbot hate Open Document! Microsoftbot eat Open Document and shit out Word97 pellets! Microsoftbot angry with Massachussetts, and funny name state will suffer wrath of Microsoftbot, just like South Korean smarty pants will! Microsoftbot fucking kill Open Document! If you use OpenDocument, Microsoftbot come and tear your computer into many pieces! Microsoftbot unstoppable! Someday Microsoftbot will rule world, and all will bow to Microsoftbot's creators, and burn open source demons and Steve Jobs, because Microsoftbot think him weirdo hippy.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I have this exact problem with all sorts of documents. Products that simply don't exist anymore. Splash. Wordstar. MS Works (though I seem to recall someone found a converter). DeScribe. I have docs I wrote on the Commodore Plus 4 that I was only able to retrieve via some lovely commodore emulation software that allowed copy and paste :)
My motto these days is that if you can't read it right now in several different tools (ala PDF) and you don't own the code; don't trust it to be there when you need it.
-WS
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
If things were too efficient and easy to change, you could waking up in a police state overnight.
Abstinence is a government conspiracy. www.SafeSexZone.co
Sorry to shout, but come on guys, it's tough enough getting past the FUD from the Friends of Microsoft without mis-stating things...
...brig
The guidelines do not ban Microsoft's Office product, they merely state that the state of Massachusetts will need to use products which support OpenDocument.
If Microsoft decides to support OpenDocument, or a third party makes a Microsoft Office to OpenDocument converter which works well, the state of Massachusetts will still be able to use Microsoft Office.
They're just expressing a very appropriate interest in non-proprietary file formats, not saying they won't use the software.
Pretty important difference.
-- When I grow up I'd like to be a systems defenestrator.
FTA: "CAGW has issued a statement that said the move to OpenDocument would incur unnecessary costs as the state government would be forced to convert 'more than one million current files to the new [OpenDocument] format.'"
I presume CAGW refers to Citizens Against Government Waste. But their statement on this doesn't jibe with the fact that most past documents in other formats would have to be converted to be compatible with newer proprietary formats as well. Also, it contains no comparison of the unnecessary costs incurred by not converting to an open format of some sort.
That's a great idea! I can shell out to MS for a Windows license and then downl... oh wait, we're back to where we started. Not to mention that I can't send in anything to my government... it's supposed to be two-way. Instead of this roundabout, I'm honestly and genuinely interested in hearing your justification for a government ever storing public documents in a closed format. I've never been able to come up with one, but I'd love to hear it.
- fader
I was happy to read someone describing Microsoft Office as a 'legacy system'.
"If you think the problem is bad now, just wait until we've solved it." --- Arthur Kasspe
One of the things one should consider when evaluation Microsoft's true openness is the company's willingness to support their own technologies on competing plattforms. More than often - virtuall allways in the public debate, Microsoft seem to forget that they actually do supply products for another operating system: Mac OS X, and one metric for testing their willingness to share their own technologies outside of Windows is to take a closer look at their Mac products. For instance both Microsoft Messenger and Microsoft Windows Media Player significantly lacks in functionality and features compared to their Window versions.
Microsoft states in their response letter to MA:
In the case of XML support in Microsoft Office:mac 2004, only Excel supports the MS XML format, where support for XML formatted Word 2003 documents produced on Windows are completely lacking. It is also not possible to write XML documents from Word on the Mac. I blogged an article earlier this fall that explains in more detail how Microsoft's XML support is only Windows deep and what they have stated on this in relation to Office 12 for Mac OS X. Repeated questions to Microsoft on the fact that this "openness" is only Windows deep remains unanswered.
I have also posted a question to Microsoft's latest blog on the ability to save as XPS format in the upcoming Office 12 for Mac -- a question that remains unanswered.
Microsoft has been very active on Norwegian discussion boards lately where Microsoft employees have been operating under nicks posing to be normal discussion partipants rallying against the OpenDocument formats and promoting the openness of the MS XML formats well knowing that the country in Europe closest to follow follow Massachussetts is Norway. This following a public hearing where the government wants to standardize on open document formats in all communication with, and within the public sector, in addition to promote the use of open source code. Microsoft's response to this has been surprisingly vague compared to the response to the Commonwealth of Massachussetts.
The future is in beta
"-rant-" :) Notice the $2 million Tuesday software audit. Any disgruntled employee can cause havoc. They can audit my winxp desktop but keep your grubby hands off the servers they are ALL GPL! Now beat it! They can pull out all your computers in an instant and you have to fight to get them back.
I don't read much in the TCO studies about the cost/risk/liability of lawsuits from this team. Can I buy insurance for this?
BSA
$2 million dollars
The GPL is this organizations worst nightmare. So HAPPY HALLOWEEN!
I just got a thought, I am going to make stickers for every monitor and PC that uses only GPL software. NO BSA (circle with slash BSA in middle). It will make the others careful about what they install and give me great satisfaction as I do my Walk About. Then I'll add a line item to the budget for each machine without a sticker. I'll let accounting figure out the rest.
Of course I FULLY agree with and support about MA's responsibility not to store public records in a proprietary format. 3 Cheers MA! You are fighting the right fight.
"-/rant-"
Whew that felt good
Gizmos Gagets For Ninjas
I'll gladly contribute some time to help towards filling the gaps in.
ODF is an XML-based format. So when you ask "why can't we use XML?", the answer is "they are trying to!"
That is just FUD Microsoft Office 2003 XML schema license.
Is this even a coherent sentence? I assume you intended to babble some uninformed BS about how MS's new file format is open, even though it isn't, and cannot be implemented by other vendors since it stores vital information as encoded chunks of binary data within the XML.
But to address your premise, I can't find that anywhere in the state constitution or in any laws. I think that is a nice notion you have, but isn't the job of the CIO of the state.
Umm, the CIO is supposed to get the best tech at the best price. Just like everything else, he wrote a standard for what he wanted and is accepting bids. Just because the standard they decided upon is the Open Office format instead of a format only one vendor can bid on does not mean he is legislating. You might notice he chose the standard the entire European Union has also decided upon.
This is not rocket science. Just because you have been buying a special kind of patented electrical plug for years, does not mean you should not choose a new one when it comes time to renovate a building, especially when anyone can bid on the new one, while only one company can bid on the old one. It is common sense and business sense not to lock yourself into on supplier.
The CIO should be implementing the most compatible solution for the citizens.
I'm glad you said that. Who can run OpenOffice and write to that format? Anyone, the software is free and runs on all major OS's. Who can run Word and write to .doc? The subset of the population that is running Windows or Mac OS and can afford to spend $100+. I think it is clear which one is more compatible.
When you have 95% + of a market you are the standard.
Who cares if it is a de-facto standard. It locks you into one supplier which means you are screwed in purchasing negotiations. Only an idiot would go with a product available only from one vendor. If MS wants to be a supplier then they can meet the product specifications of their customer. Gee what a crazy concept, a supplier providing what the customer wants, and bidding against other suppliers. If MS does not want to bid and compete, well that is certainly there choice. So far your only argument has been, they should do what everyone else does because everyone else is doing it. What a great way to stifle all progress forever. Hopefully the legislators in MA will not be as blind as you are.
Mass is fighting the good fight on this one. I'm not sure who exactly is behind it, but, as a resident, I decided it would be best for me to contact them and let them know how much I approved. I just contacted the ITD (Information Technology Division) and let them know what I thought, and asked if there was someone better to whom I could send my thank yous. Our leaders need to hear from us when they're doing a good job.
hackshop.com - My tech hobby project hub
You're spouting absolutely incorrect information all over this post. I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to say that I know more than you on this topic. I happen to be a government official in MA, so I feel very comfortable saying that I know more than you about this. Just because a couple Senators say it, doesn't make it correct; it isn't their job to know everything about everything.
;-). Many current machines are running NT4, and, as they pointed out, there are still Win98 machines out there, too. XP won't run on those computers, and neither will Office 12. Using OpenOffice would give them more life from existing equipment, if they desire.
1) The State distributes public documents in PDF, not in Word docs. They occasionally will send Word and Excel files around to other government institutions, if they require a lot of data input, formulas, or validation. This *already* causes severe compatibility problems due to issues between versions of MS software.
2) Appointed positions have to be voted upon by elected representatives. There is your accountability.
3) The State has a CIO, and ITD, and various others to make these decisions and recommendations. If they ignore these people/departments, they are basically making them unnecessary, and should justify why they're spending the money for nothing.
4) The State does have several tens of thousands of desktops. Every municipal government has several State machines to do voter registration, police queries, and other functions. You have things like the Registry, with their many thousands of machines, you have courts, DOR, DLS, DET, etc. So yes, there are a very lot of desktops out there under State control.
5) The State tends to run with old computers until they do a full replacement, or they die (it seems whichever is longer
6) You forgot support agreements on all that hardware/software. Not that all of it will be purchased with those agreements. It depends on whether they're doing RFP, going with the bid list under existing contract, etc.
7) People aren't going to be worried about those things, at all. They had to install something to read all those PDFs on nearly every State and Federal website. If they're downloading tax forms, those are PDF, for example. People certainly don't get all worried about installing some random software, either.
The elected officials are talking about squashing this likely because some MS agent bent their ear on it. If you read some of the things that people said against using OpenDocument, and requiring Word, you see how unfounded many of those comments really are. All the talk about disability and accessibility was quite interested. Software had to be specially written for Office because of it's non-standard nature, for example.
If this initiative gets shot down, I think you'll find that it had everything to do with MS influence, and nothing to do with worrying about the People.