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French Riots Lead to Crackdown on Blogs
Browncoat writes "Wired reports that because of the recent riots in France, authorities have shut down a blog called Hardcore, whose participants have allegedly violating a French law concerning violent speech. Many bloggers fear there will be consequences for them if they are outspoken, even if it is in a nonviolent way. From the article: 'Ahmed Meguinia, a political activist who saw some of the Paris region's hardest-hit areas during the past week, said many bloggers feared prosecution for publishing even nonviolent content. While not condoning blogs that incited violence, he said that there was a lack of media coverage explaining why ethnically segregated inhabitants of some of France's poorest cities have been driven to riot. Instead, the world repeatedly sees CNN images of burning cars and shops, he said.'"
That's a loaded term. Show me where France forced ethnicities into certain parts of the city, Warsaw Ghetto style. People live wherever they can afford to. Guess what? Beverly Hills is 'ethnically segregated' too.
... we have laws against inciting violence here, and most other places have the same deal.
If some American blog advocated setting fire to police stations and lynching Dick & George, it would also be "cracked down" upon.
Let's not get all hypocritical here.
Of course, the free speach should weigh heavy, but they should dampen the ones that try to fuel the fire.
Bullshit! There is no valid reason to restrict speech unless it presents an immediate danger and serves no valid point of discussion (yelling fire in a movie theater).
Simply banning all speech that might be "violent" is a very slippery slope. It would probably have made it illegal for me to encourage people to take to the streets to protest the Florida fiasco in 2000. They might do better by looking at the reason why these people are rioting in the first place. Perhaps because they feel cheated by the system? Perhaps because they aren't even allowed to wear their religious headwear to school anymore?
As a sidenote: I don't ever want to hear people slime the United States again. It's rather interesting that Muslim youth over here aren't rioting -- even though we are the ones "at war" with certain followers of that faith. Perhaps that's because we have better religious freedom?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
So the French Government sticks it to the politically powerless bloggers. Will they also forbid those same images on CNN referenced in the blurb? I would be willing to bet that more potential rioters got their initial impressions from the mainstream media than from blogs.
Of course, you cannot coordinate attacks on CNN, but shutting down blogs will be not only ineffective but counterproductive. A well-informed security service would be monitoring the blogs and spiking them with false info to make arrests.
OK, I'd prefer those who do the wrong thing to be stupid rather than clever...
Using plain ol' text since 1968
That's like saying Osama Bin Laden was "driven" to attack the WTC. Or the people who attacked London in July were "driven" to it by the victims.
Many ( but centainly not all) of these rioters are racists. The difference between them and other disillusioned youths in their North African homecountries is that they're living close enough to the hated group to actually attack them, in this case their property and the police.
Which idiot modded that insightful? The riots have nothing to do with religion - they're standard poverty riots just like Brixton 1985 and LA 1992, and you seriously have to stop masturbating about trying to evoke a global culture war at every opportunity you see.
Let's examine this statement:
>>he said that there was a lack of media coverage explaining why ethnically segregated inhabitants of some of France's poorest cities have been driven to riot.
>>lack of media coverage explaining
No doubt. From the media, one would think it was just random collections of poor "youth" on a little spree, releasing youthful energy by burning a car or two (thousand). The reality is that it's a well-defined group of people which I'll get to in a moment.
>>ethnically segregated inhabitants
Do you mean the "muslim immigrants (many of whom are illegal aliens), primarily male aged 14-26, who, by choice, are poorly integrated into France's culture (read: hates France, doesn't speak French, disdain for Europeans, etc.) and thus more likely to be unemployed (and living off of France's generous welfare system, placing a burden on the French)?" It's hard to tell, with all those PC buzzwords in the media.
Look, it's what happens when a culture doesn't insist that immigrants conform. They hate their host country and are using this as an excuse to terrorize, burn, loot, and generally express their disdain and hatred for France.
Anything else I can clear up for you?
Poverty riots? So they're not on generous welfare? They don't have enough
food to eat? They don't all have TVs? They arn't all , in general , far
better off than if they or their parents had stayed in their backwards
african slum? Gimme a break. These riots are the standard issue "poor little
us" youth riots , with a bunch of witless adolescents feeling sorry for
themselves and so have to take it out on the state because they're too thick
to see the real cause of their unemployment is in the mirror.
Denmark has had really severe problems with that, but so far the groups fight eachother. None of the European countries have faced up to the transmigration problem and still handle them and immigrants alike under antiquated immigration laws designed to handle a slow trickle of individuals back in the 1950's. No system is really in place to get the people new job skills for those that need it, proper language skills, and an acceptance or appreciation of existing values and mores.
As a result, you get situations like in the Netherlands where each of the 4 largest cities in the country have a first generation immigrant/transmigration populations of over 40% each. Or in Malmö, Sweden where Swedes are now the single largest ethnic minority, even counting second generation immigrants/transmigrants as Swedes, regardless of assimilation.
There is also the problem of double standards. Any questioning or criticism of the system results in personal verbal attacks and accusations of intolerance. Any criticism of the behaviour of the new comers is likewise attacked with accusations of intolerance and racism. In contrast, newcomers can get away with statements and actions that would put a 'native' in serious legal trouble, resulting in jail or fines. That has to stop and the reality of the situation be looked at as well as the intended goals.
How does importing 5 million transmigrants into a country of 5 million or even 60 million help the situation for either the people (both new and old) in the new country or those left in the country they have escaped from? We all know what happens to a business if there is high turn over, what about whole cities or countries?
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Anybody else see that Frontline report about the 911 terrorists? Sure, a lot of them where Saudis, but nearly all of the were radicallized during their time in Europe.
Too bad for the French the EU is not in charge of DNS. They could just delete his domain name:)
1. I think by dampen the ones that try to fuel the fire he probably meant the ones that were explicitly inciting further violence. So we're (you, me and parent) are probably in agreement that those specific guys could have their free speech rights truncated in interests of greater public safety.
2. Perhaps that's because we have better religious freedom? I think more than just religious freedom it might have to do with the fact that the French state is a secular one. When they beheaded their king back in the French Revolution they were not just doing away with the monarchy, they were also symbolically dethroning God. Ever since they have had an aggressively secular government. So it's no wonder that a minority group that is extremely religious feels at odds with a government that borders on anti-religious.
This is in contrast with American government, which was not founded as a secular state. People who say it was are misreading the Constitution and ignoring history. I'm not saying it was Christian, but it was at least fundamentally theist. Just read the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson, certainly not a Christian by any conventional standard, began attending a Christian church when he was president. Why? He explained that he felt that the Christian faith tended towards the betterment of society and thus it was up to him to set a good example and attent. The "seperation of church and state" was really only intended to be a seperation between the state and any specific establishment of religion - not to set the state against religion or expel God from the state.
There are dangers in giving into the demands of the religious right - ID and all the nonesense. But by the same token, if we allow America to continue to be secularized (ala banning the Pledge of Allegiance and essentially declaring the Declaration of Independence itself to be ruled "unconstitutional") we are perhaps setting the stage to follow France towards an inevitable confrontation between the forces of religion and atheism.
I'm not saying that it is only religious tension that has resulted in the French violence, but it is certainly an exacerbating element.
-stormin
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
Or maybe Europe is closer in location and historic ties to the muslim parts of the world than the US is? Maybe this has nothing to do with a war, but more with a large influx of muslims seeking riches, but not finding it?
That's funny, because just one of our states (Michigan) has a larger Muslim population then any other Western nation save France, and overall we have the largest number of Muslims in the United States then any other Western country. I don't see any riots here.
And it's not just about economics either my friend. I don't see Mexicans/Latinos rioting in the United States when they come here to seek their fortune and don't find it. We embrace other cultures and assimilate them into our own. A lot of other countries just reject them outright.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
There's a difference. See if you can spot it:
Anita Coney is a smelly poopy-head.
That's opinion.
Anita Coney should be shoved through a meat-grinder because he's such an idiot.
That's a threat.
Understand? You can state opinions ("France sucks!") but you can't try and get people to attack France.
By the way, the US works in exactly the same way. It's often refered to as "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" but you can bet that the same blogs would be shut down by US authorities.
Then the idiots should vote. Burning homes/cars/businesses/people isn't they way to go about getting your way.
Especially burning down their OWN neighbourhood. Now if they were trashing some upper-class city, then yeah I'd understand the point of the protest. But burning your neighbour's car, who doesn't make that much of a living in the first place ...
Some people are saying "It's all economics, they're poor / unemployed so they are fighting against the Man the only way they can", while others are saying "It's all religion, they're all middle-eastern, its what they do".... but those are just the talking points of the far Left and far Right. The issue, as always, is more complicated.
What you have are immigrant population from French colonies in North Africa (who happen to be of middle-eastern and african descent) who have entered France through their weaker immigration laws. The French are traditionally very nationalistic (see their Language boards), and the immigrants were discriminated against and were not assimilated into mainstream cultures. Secondly, the middle-eastern culture itself is very prideful, mainly becase of their religious practices and family customs. The net result was that the immigrants self-segretated themselves into comminities of like-minded peoples.
So, the dominant european ethnics (through prejudice) resisted their assimilation, which had the net result of limiting the earning potential of the middle-eastern ethnics. The immigrants resist learning the French language and culture, and because of French law, are denied representation in their governments. When the government does try to "help" them with social programs, their culture see it as insulting / condescending. The net result of this is a hatred of a government that is constantly trying to patronize them and force them to give up their heritage.
So, these neighborhoods tend to have less governmental police prescence than other suburbs of Paris, which tends to lead to more criminal elements. It had gotten so bad, representatives of the federal government of France were claiming that they would "clean up the scum", which didn't go so well with the locals. In the latest chain of events, there were two youths who were fleeing police, hid in a utility station and accidentally electrocuted themselves. The immigrant cultures see this as police brutality & oppression, something denied by the authorities.
Finally, there are now criminal elemnts in the immigrant culture that are rising up and causing damage around the suburbs, fighting their "battle" against the government for making them the way they are... Yet, these people do not see that a share of that responsibility is theirs.
Sitting here reading
Joking aside, there's a long term battle going on here between workers and employers, and the whole french employment and social model is at stake. A powerful CEOs lobby known as MEDEF is pushing hard to shift the model to "Easy to hire, easy to fire", but that is hard to swallow when like those young rioters you have trouble finding anything but short term, underpaid jobs.
Anything you do can get you slashdotted, including nothing.
So how do you want it? The french way with high labor costs or the Wal-Mart way with low pay?
Since I live in Paris and I used to live in one of those poor suburbs, my humble opinion might be worth more than 2 cents, so here it comes: ... They were not just discussing the problems.
1. There is no country in Europe that does not struggle with immigrants and children from immigrants from African origin. France has the largest number of them, hence the biggest problems. (This is also correlated to the anti-semitism problem in France: the largest arabic and the largest jewish populations of Europe are in France and anti semitism in France comes overwhelmingly from this arabic population)
2. Many of those rioters are simply criminals that do not want the police to be present in these suburbs and are demonstrating that it is their territory.
3. Islam has nothing to do with these rioters. If they were white, would we say it's because of christianity? These criminals are not muslim.
4. These bloggers were calling for physically hurting policemen, burning cars, schools,
5. What is this bullshit about journalists not talking about the causes of the social problems? All French newspapers, TV and radio news are just talking about that!
6. These riots happen almost exclusively in the poor suburbs of France, 99% of the French population has only seen burning cars on TV.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
No system is really in place to get the people new job skills for those that need it, proper language skills, and an acceptance or appreciation of existing values and mores.
Asians never seem to need assistance from the "state" nor do Eastern European immigrants. They adopt and are often the most successful members of society.
Maybe they should crack down on the rioters first?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"'Driven to riot' implies a lack of accountability on the part of the people looting and burning one of history's great civilizations."
:)
Truer words have seldom been posted here... except that part about history's great civilizations, of course
Think of how many violent acts are carried out here in the USA because someone was "driven" to it? People seem to be "driven" by everything these days; alcohol, work stress, abusive parents, rap music, video games... everything except the most important element: CHARACTER FLAWS.
Maybe if people stopped blaming society for all of their personal shortcomings, we'd be able to fix some of our problems. Until that happens, though, prepare yourself for more of the same.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Don't you even bother to evaluate "factoids" before throwing them out to "support" your arguments?
Do you really believe fifty years ago that half of Turkey's inhabitants were atheists? When did the great Secular Turkish migration/exodus occur? Do you believe fifty years ago that America's population was only 50% Christian?
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Well, speaking as somebody that has actually BEEN THERE, I can tell you it is totally a Muslim event!
...). Give the youngs some fun, give the older a job and there would be no riot.
When? Where? How long?
There is no religion involded.
There are dozens of different nationalities involved
Wrong. They are french. And most of them don't have another nationality.
but the common denominator is they are Muslims.
Yes some of them are muslims. And what? The police men are 90% christians (were baptized). And what?
My comment may be considered flamebait here
You're right for this point
it is the reality of Muslim immigrants all across Europe
There is hardly any immigrant involved in these riots. Most of the rioters are french. Born in France. Educated in France.
The do not wish to blend in and they are intolerant of other religions, not just the Jews.
Totaly wrong. Would be too long to explain.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with current evets before your next comment.
Instead of familiarizing with events, you should meet people.
I don't want to say there is no problem. Because there is. But it is not a matter of religion. This is a social problem (unemployment, future, integration,
Million Dollar Screenshot
France "rejects" these people he says , and by way of proof he offers
up the fact that they don't have good jobs or are no in the cabinet.
Perhaps , the truth is that not many of them have the education or
ability to have good jobs. Its the same in the UK where certain groups
whine on about discrimition against ethic groups , until you have to point
out to them that hindus, sikhs , chinese etc are all doing very well
thank you. Certain minority groups simply won't admit that its THEIR fault
they're doing badly , and contrary to what they may think or want , society
does NOT owe them a living.
Perhaps these bloggers should consider a change of venue. Say to one of the indymedia sites or the general purpose blog sites like LiveJournal. While LJ would likely comply with a court order, coming from a French (in this case) court would likely be delayed while it was examined etc etc.
Being based outside the country you currently reside in has some usefullness.
Also, it is good to see that, despite living in economically depressed areas of France, they are able to get online at all.
As far as the (US) media coverage of the French riots, I agree, it's been almost all about the damage being done and very little about what they were angry for. I had to ask a friend who is a French national what in the would they were rioting for.
Her response was interesting, mainstream France does not harbor any noticible racism for black Africans. They have been and continue to be integrated into mainstream french society. The flare ups have been towards more recent north african immigrants who happen to be majority arab & muslim decent.
Like elsewhere in the would, people look for scapegoats whereever they can, in this case the more recent immegrants consume french health care and public assistance resources but are not far enough along in integrating (or refusing to integrate) to start contributing taxes and the like to make up for the difference. With unemployment being high in specific parts of France this can lead to problems etc etc.
I can't speak to if there is really any intentional discrimination of anybody. This was all from a 40 YO mother who is more in the world of shopping for dinner at x+3 shops and driving an SUV than anything else.
This is honestly not a troll, I don't want to start a flame war, but whenever I read stuff like this coming on the heels of editorials by media pundits about how France is a model of what America ought to strive for, I thank God that the people who believe this aren't in power. I'll take today's America over today's France. America's first Republic has endured for 200 years. France's falls apart, historically, about once every 40-60.
"I have never won a debate with an ignorant person." -Ali ibn Abi Talib
In the USA if you *link* to a site that *might* infringe copyright your site *will* be taken down.
Cease and decist letters are all it takes.
There's a lot more censorship in the USA than in Europe - except there it's corporate driven and americans like to pretend that it doesn't exist.
Unless these people are being illegally denied representation in government, I honestly don't give a flying flip about why they feel "driven" to violence. Democracies have mechanisms for peacefully airing grievances; if you can't convince others of your position, you can't get what you want. End of story.
Bandannarama
It didn't make a lot of sense in the LA riots, either.
What this shows is that rioting is an emotional activity, not a logical one.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It was not intended to strip ones liberty of faith, but rather put everybody on the same level : no religion (quite) no differences. See it like the UK uniform tradition. Religion being an important matter, it aims not to bring possible 'tensions' at school.
It doesn't strip your liberty of faith to not be able to wear the items of that faith when you attend public school? I presume that school is mandatory for all children in France the way it is in the United States?
Such a law would never survive a court challenge over here. It would never even get passed in the first place.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I flew over the comment page and read many of them though not all of them, and I didn't see any French replying to this, so I figured out it'd a good idea to reply. I could tell you guys what I think it is happening here, in our beloved country. As many of you have stated, France built housing projects for the poorest people to live in, and immigrants and their descendance had no other choice than to go live there. Though, in France, when you're down there, you sort of get stuck down there and you can't really expect the same opportunities as the "less poor" people living in houses. It is hard to explain, but these people slowly built their own communitity, they've been cast apart by the rest of us French and ignored for too long; now they're called scum. Wouldn't you be pissed that, not only do you live in housing projects and can't get a job, but you also are ignored by the country ? People living there have a stamp mark on their faces, and are considered as troublemakers. And we can't say that it's about religion or the fact that they came from foreign countries, because white French boys live in those places: they're rioters too. Religion as little to do with all this. Have you people seen the movie "La Haine" - the American title is Hate" - by Matthieu Kassovitz ? It is exactly the same thing, EXACTLY the same - The police injures a young immigrant from the suburbs while interrogating him. He later dies . - This event sparks riots everywhere in Paris suburbs. - The police is everywhere. - Cars are burning. The riots, the burning cars... this is not the point. The point is that the youth have nothing else to do than to fuck around everyday, do drugs, and deal with policemen. The police and the youth hate each other. The only thing they can do to get attention from the whole country is to set it on fire. And that's what they did. La Haine was shot in 1991; we're in 2005, the situation did NOT evolve.
The problem in a nutshell is Islam is not just a religion, it is also a political force that denies the legitimacy of other belief systems and other political orientations.
What utter tripe.
I lived in two predominantly Muslim countries when I was a kid, (Malaysia and Indonesia), and they were just as tolerant of other religions as any other country in the world. For most Indonesians, Islam is about like Christianity is in the USA: something you pay lip service to when your grandma is listening, but you don't let it get in the way of having a good time.
There's a problem of Saudi-bankrolled Wahabbis finding the assholes in every Muslim community and inciting them to cause trouble. It's about the same problem you'd find in the Christian world if somebody dropped a couple billion dollars on that clown with the "god hates fags" web site.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
BS.
If you aren't ready to immigrate, then don't immigrate. Period. Don't go to another country, and expect them to learn your language so that they can teach you in schools, and don't expect them to change their TV programming so that you can understand it. None of these people were displaced. They came voluntarily, and instead of assimilating, they're trying to do the assimilation. Hence the friction. I feel very little for them. I sincerely doubt that every other minority group in France is having this problem.
They really do mean that everyone is equal, and everyone is the same, and everyone will learn the same curriculum in every school in France at the same time of day. And there will be no special treatment for anyone in respect of membership of any group. And no mark of religious observance will be allowed in any school. This is why headscarves are banned. That's why there can be no equal opportunities programs, and no quotas based on ethnicity. There can of course be massive social programs directed at the poor and at deprived areas, and there are. It is not usually realised what an enormous proportion of the French budget goes on social spending. This is what is keeping the suburbs and their housing projects going. But no-one is being forced to live anywhere, except by individual choices of lots of people.
And, incidentally, if you live in a colonial possession, you are French. You are represented in the legislature just as if you were a departement of geographical France, you have the same government, the same schools. You are a citizen, that's all anyone needs to know. The rest is personal
Of course, the problem is, that neither the immigrants nor the native population actually feels this way, and the 18th century is a long time ago. Hence there is indeed widespread discrimination, widespread isolationism and separatism, radical Islam is a real factor. Participation in politics is minimal - though the French electoral system would make it quite easy for immigrant groups to elect representatives, there are almost none.
Its a mess all right. But it is not quite the mess it looks from the US. Its a kind of unfamiliar mess, and Lord knows how you straighten it out, now.
You're assuming that the fact that they have Arab names is what causes them to be rejected more often. Did you ever suppose perhaps some of it's because of everything else on their resumes? The fact that so many are uneducated, inexperienced immigrants perhaps?
Ofcourse, they only condemned "blind" attacks which makes it pretty useless a fatwa since the youths certainly don't think what they're doing is blind (and the 'official islamic body' knows that). The wording works to their advantage and people like you coo when they say it.
Mmmm, this is NOT a terrorist attack, which only requires a handful of people, but a lot of money and organization. It's riots, which require little money, but a lot of people.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Part of it is that certain people in their community "encourage" them not to assimilate. That's the whole problem with multi-culturalism. If you don't assimilate, you don't get the same advanatages as the mainstream. Look, it's fine to be proud of your own culture and roots, but if it prevents you from working in the "normal" society then you're going to be segregated. It's like certain elements of black culture claiming that doing well at school is "acting white". You think those kids who remain "authentic" to their race are going to be employable?
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
I will have to discount the "nanny-state" part, because everything else you've said perfectly describes the race ghettos of the United States. No jobs, check. Entrenched racism, check. The US Government "telling" people where to live through economics....check (although I feel this point in particular is nothing more than a semantic game).
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.