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Dell's Open Source Desktop Systems

Posted by Zonk on from the unfamiliar-frontier-for-penguins dept.

An anonymous reader writes "An article at XYZComputing goes over Dell's open source line of desktop computers and workstations. The N line is something which Dell began to sell recently, but the situation is much more complex that it would seem. There is often little or no discount given if consumers opt to go with FreeDOS as their operating system. There is also a great link in the article showing how Dell is selling AMD processors in their Accessories section!" From the article: "A major hurdle preventing the growth of Linux with non-professional users has been installation the operating system and dealing with the resultant compatibility issues. An ideal solution to this would be a major manufacturer which is willing to sell computers with Linux preinstalled. This would not only make it easy for users to buy a computer and have Linux running after simply plugging it in, but it would theoretically allow the manufacturer to lower the cost of a computer because software licensing costs could be minimized."

31 of 176 comments (clear)

  1. Slashdot's Open Source DUPE systems. by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 4, Informative


    Didn't we discuss this over a month ago???

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:Slashdot's Open Source DUPE systems. by yog · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hmm, I guess that kind of thing happens in journalism (recycled stories). As the first poster, you seemed awfully eager to point it out to the world. Why not just fast forward to some other story that you are interested in instead of dwelling on the dupedness of this one?

      Regarding the topic of Linux-on-Dells, I would prefer to buy my desktops from a local supplier who makes them to order and has no problem leaving the OS to me. He runs a minimal WinXP OS to test the h/w and burn it in, then wipes it and hands them over. We take it from there. No fuss, no muss. Fedora installs in a few mouse clicks and we're up and running.

      His prices are competitive with Dell's if not lower, and you don't need to go through config screens unclicking Norton Antivirus and MS Office to lower the price by hundreds of dollars, and you don't get a modem if you don't want one, and so forth.

      I would think that corporations who still use Dell to stock hundreds or thousands of workstations probably are going to want to stick to Windows for the moment. Smaller operations who need on the order of 5-10 workstations, or fewer, probably can go with a local system integrator or PC builder who will do precisely what they need, and who is a quick drive down the road if something needs to be fixed or exchanged.

      The bottom line is that Linux is still somewhat in the do-it-yourself category. It's sort of naive to expect Dell and Gateway and such companies to supply end user workstations running Linux. There is a market but it's rather small. Look in Linux Journal and similar places for ads for such computers. They're small potatoes right now, though of course we Linux enthusiasts all hope they'll grow.

      --
      it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
  2. Nothing more than a PR stunt. by Mr.+Darl+McBride · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How can you tell? Well, for starters, you can buy the same system with a hard disk twice the size with a 17" LCD monitor and Windows Media Center Edition for the same price.

    More importantly, the 510n comes with an ATI card that will be difficult to get to work properly with X.org (dunno if Xi Graphics is still in business), whereas the 510 uses an Intel chipset that, while not great, will probably work better.

    And why not simply install a popular Linux distribution on it from the get go? They could "brand" it simply by adding a package with Dell-logo wallpapers, themes, and icon sets.

    Dell's just grubbing for some positive press.

  3. Dell and Linux support by unsung · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Dell could never pre-install linux on their systems - unless if it was a paid version. If they did, they'd have to support it which would level their margins - if not pull it into the negative.

    1. Re:Dell and Linux support by external400kdiskette · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Support is probably the primary issue why Dell cant realistically start flogging Linux boxes to the general populace. When your selling the cheapest hardware at the cheapest price with low profit margins you cant really afford to lose any money because you have to support every clueless newbie whose never used anything other than Windows and cant understand why his bloody activex banking sites will never load on his new pc.

    2. Re:Dell and Linux support by nickos · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also bear in mind the Windows licensing agreements that OEMs have to agree to. Here's an old but very relevant artice: He Who Controls the Bootloader

      In the 1998-1999 timeframe, ready to prime the pump with their desktop offering, Be offered BeOS for free to any major computer manufacturer willing to pre-install BeOS on machines alongside Windows. Although few in the Be community ever knew about the discussions, Gassée says that Be was engaged in enthusiastic discussions with Dell, Compaq, Micron, and Hitachi. Taken together, pre-installation arrangements with vendors of this magnitude could have had a major impact on the future of Be and BeOS. But of the four, only Hitachi actually shipped a machine with BeOS pre-installed. The rest apparently backed off after a closer reading of the fine print in their Microsoft Windows License agreements. Hitachi did ship a line of machines (the Flora Prius) with BeOS pre-installed, but made changes to the bootloader -- rendering BeOS invisible to the consumer -- before shipping. Apparently, Hitachi received a little visit from Microsoft just before shipping the Flora Prius, and were reminded of the terms of the license.

  4. Sadly, not likely to happen soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We live in a capitalistic society (especially here in the "United" States). Since M$ can apply large amounts of financial pressure against vendors by saying, "if you pre-install Linux at any large scale, we'll pull our preferred customer discount for your OEM Windows prices", they effectively can coerce third party vendors to ignore Linux on a large scale.

    What is *needed* is a start-up company to get capital venture funding and start a hardware store to compete with the likes of Dell... but to ONLY use Open-Source, and spend their captial funding on ADVERTISEMENT of the advantages of FOSS.

    Something like a televised "Get the Factual Facts"...

    I'd buy a computer from that kind of company on principle, and I'd CERTAINLY suggest that my less-than-technically-saavy friends would do the same.

    G.B.Y.L.B.T.,
    PastorEd

    1. Re:Sadly, not likely to happen soon by operagost · · Score: 2, Informative

      They already did this in the 1990s against OEMs who loaded OS/2 and were (slightly) penalized for it.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    2. Re:Sadly, not likely to happen soon by mooingyak · · Score: 3, Funny

      I have heard OEM license numbers as low as $30 for XP Home. It retails for $99 - so the total spread is $70. I know margins are tight, but will $70 (assuming the mfg ends up paying retail, which is unlikely) really make that much difference?

      $70 makes no difference whatsoever. Consumers are always happy to pay an extra $70. They often complain that prices are too low.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    3. Re:Sadly, not likely to happen soon by bogie · · Score: 2, Funny

      My sarcasm detector just exploded.

      --
      If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
  5. Tax privatization by Coeurderoy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We did discuss this recently, and "obviously nothing changes :-)" You might want to look at the work of the group to remove the "private microsoft tax " on PC. (most of the content is in french but at least you have an english Intro) https://www2.aful.org/sections/wikis/detaxe/GdTDet axeEnglish/cps_wiki_pageview It is interesting to notice that the same IT vendors that are yelling against levy on harddisk and usb memory sticks to manage the rights of copyright owners, and prefer to push DRMS (with all the civic rights adverse impacts) Do perfectly accept to pay a microsoft "levvy" for each and all of their PCs.

  6. The real problem by PatrickThomson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Have you ever set up a brand new dell for someone? There's so much shitware installed, free trials of dvd players, etc, etc, that it's faster to format and reinstall straight away than to uninstall it all. Each of those bits of bundled wankware earns dell money, it more than offsets the XP bulk license cost.

    What would be good is a way to buy a dell and immediately sell the license on to a reseller.

    --
    I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    1. Re:The real problem by Trevahaha · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know about you, but have bought two Dells in the last year and they didn't have any of that crap on it. Most of the time you can specify that when you customize your system... maybe it's because I was getting a higher-end system, who knows. But the only thing they had on it "extra" was the Dell Media Experience (at my request). (And of course all the system drivers for my hardware)

    2. Re:The real problem by FreeBSD+evangelist · · Score: 2, Interesting
      What would be good is a way to buy a dell and immediately sell the license on to a reseller.

      Unfortunately, you can't resell the license. That's forbidden. OEM Windows licenses are require to stay (and die) with the machine with which they were sold.

  7. It's hard... by pr0nbot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I bought a PC recently. Part of the justification was that I would finally get round to setting up a Linux desktop and configure it just the way I want.

    But all the distros I've tried so far have had hardware issues that I consider pretty fundamental to a desktop. RedHat - getting nvidia graphics installed to run Doom3. SuSE - intermittent sound and wifi issues. Ubuntu - screen resolution issues, sound issues, unremembered wifi config. (Knoppix is next, fingers crossed.)

    I can solve all of these, by getting down and hacking the config files, but the fact that these mature and well-backed distros don't Just Work illustrates the fact that getting a Linux desktop distro to work is a non-trivial job, and I'm not surprised PC manufacturers aren't interested in doing it and supporting it.

    I don't know what the answer is - some of these distros are backed by big companies. It's a shame IBM didn't do a distro when they had a hardware division, I think it'll takes someone who does software and hardware (like Apple) to really get it right, sell you a machine that just works.

    1. Re:It's hard... by IANAAC · · Score: 2, Informative
      But all the distros I've tried so far have had hardware issues that I consider pretty fundamental to a desktop. RedHat - getting nvidia graphics installed to run Doom3. SuSE - intermittent sound and wifi issues. Ubuntu - screen resolution issues, sound issues, unremembered wifi config. (Knoppix is next, fingers crossed.)

      Sigh...

      Look, if you had just regular WinXP SP2 media, you'd run into the very same issues when loading the OS. You pretty much have to go out and get drivers for anything non-vanilla (try loading XP on a widescreen laptop sometime).

      I really wish people would stop saying Linux needs to "Just Work" when, in fact, it doesn't "Just Work" with Windows either.

    2. Re:It's hard... by JPriest · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Dell pays ~$35 for a copy of Windows, then they get paid to bundle things like AOL, RealPlayer, Mcafee etc. with it. What you have now is a cost of around $30 for something they are charging the consumer a significant amount more for.

      With some of the low end PC's ($350 w/ printer & monitor), you could probably argue that if not for the marked up cost of Windows that comes with it, they would be selling the hardware stand-alone at a loss.

      If they pushed Linux, they would have to adopt a similar licensing model using Licensed Linux distros (read: for cost) at the prices that are about the same as buying copies of Windows. The problem with this is that someone has to support it. The first time some Linux user called tech support for a $300 linux machine, there goes their profit on that sale.

      They could subcontract out the Linux support, but when you have 2 companies supporting one product you have blame shifting (I think the prob is HW, call Dell then I think it is SW, call Red Hat), so that won't work either.

      So in short, if they can't mark up the OS, they will have to mark up the hardware.

      --
      Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
    3. Re:It's hard... by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But all the distros I've tried so far have had hardware issues that I consider pretty fundamental to a desktop. RedHat - getting nvidia graphics installed to run Doom3. SuSE - intermittent sound and wifi issues. Ubuntu - screen resolution issues, sound issues, unremembered wifi config. (Knoppix is next, fingers crossed.)

      Notice that all of these issues are with individual components, by which I mean that they're just driver issues. In another way of looking at it, it's not a Dell or a SuSE issue so much as it's an NVidia issue. We'd have much much better 3D support in Linux if nvidia would just open-source their drivers. Same with wifi, sound, and whatever else you're having trouble with. As yourself, are they supporting Linux, and if not, are they at least providing the community with enough to run the hardware well?

      Until nvidia, ati, and the like start doing a better job about this, there is only so much SuSE and Dell can do. (Granted, they can do quite a bit, like including Nvidia's binary driver, but what can they do if nvidia's driver is messed up?)

  8. OSS Computers usuallt are more expensive.... by haplo21112 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...its a problem of the huge kick back Microsoft gives the PC maker for preinstalling Windows. This Kickback translates into a discount on the hardware for the customer. Microsoft mentally writes it off as the "handle" so they can sell the customer more "blades" later.

    --
    Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
  9. Why buy a Dell? by CyricZ · · Score: 3, Informative

    Why would I want to buy one of these Dells when Sun is offering affordable workstations that use higher-quality and higher-performance Opteron processors? And not only that, but the Sun workstations are supported very well by Solaris, as well as Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, and a multitude of other operating systems.

    While I do have fond memories of Dell UNIX back in the early 1990s, I would not purchase their Linux-based systems today, just because the competition (ie. Sun) offers far superior products.

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    1. Re:Why buy a Dell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you want to compare workstations look at Dell's Precision line, don't compare it too a Dimension. A Precision 670 Dual Processor Dual Core system can come from the factory with RHEL4 WS if you like. These are very good systems and they will run Solaris/FreeBSD as well and run High Quality Intel Processors on High Quality Intel Motherboards.

      These stations are highly configurable and customizable to the task you want to perform. Whether it is Finance, Engineering, Video Editing (Avid) or 2D/3D Artistry.

      Dell has embraced Linux for a long long time, since RedHat 6.2 and yet the same behavior from the Slashdot crowd. Apple doesn't embrace linux and are Intel Only now and Slashdot loves them... Why?

  10. No so fast tiger.. by Tominva1045 · · Score: 2, Insightful


    ..software licensing costs could be minimized..

    If software licensing costs could be minimized then software revenue would be minimized.

    Why would a software corporation engage in an activity where revenue would be minimized?

    Answer: he wouldn't if he wanted to keep his job for long. The shareholders wouldn't stand for it.

    Maybe the People's Repuplic Of Chiner will front the software.

    --
    Cogito Ergo Sum
  11. Old Story, and answer is still the same. by CDPatten · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Dell has low prices because of large production lines. A small change in the line changes the price radically. The reason the Linux machines aren't as cheap is because so few are purchased. Also Dell gets money (savings get passed to consumer) from software companies promoting their product on WINDOWS, and their aren't many (if ANY) that do that for the Linux machines.

    This is a lame conspiracy theory, and frankly makes the Linux crowd seem desperate. I'm not trolling, but you can't honestly think this is anything other then a wild attempt to explain slower then expected adoption rates.

    The reason it is more expensive has to do with economics of supply and demand, volume, etc. How this got put on the front page TWICE in such a short period of time really blows my mind.

    Last Time: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/ 05/1240206&tid=137

  12. Paying more for a free OS by djbckr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I recently bought a computer from HP that I intended to put Linux on. It was a nice, cheap computer (it suited my needs). I asked if they could sell it to me without Windows on it (they would put FreeDOS on it). Turns out I would have had to pay about $200 more for it, because of the "discount structure". Go figure...

  13. OSS Computers are usually more expensive... by haplo21112 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...its a matter of the huge kick back Microsoft gives the PC macker for preinstalling Windows.

    This translates into a discount on the hardware for the customer.

    Microsoft mentally writes it it off as the "Handle" so they can sell the Customer more "Blades" later.

    Same concept as Razors, Game Consoles, Cell Phones....

    With out that kickback the PC maker has to charge more for the hardware...

    Anyone who denies the Microsoft Kick back doesn't happen is just deluding themselves. The Kickback is usually represented as "marketing" funds on the balance sheet.

    --
    Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
  14. Good review but ... by hotspotbloc · · Score: 2, Funny
    Good

    Review

    but

    a

    hassle

    to

    read.

    Maybe with Web 2.0 someone will invent a way to put more than two paragraphs of text on a single web page.

    --
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
  15. They dont WANT lower prices by mfifer · · Score: 2, Interesting
    would theoretically allow the manufacturer to lower the cost of a computer

    They don't WANT to lower prices...

    "Dell discounted low-end products too aggressively"

    They'll be happy if /.ers buy N systems -- extra $$$ for Dell!

  16. Non-Dell Companies selling Linux (and No OS) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.addonshop.com/
    http://www.emperorlinux.com/
    http://www.ibexpc.com/
    http://www.linare.com/
    http://www.linspire.com/
    http://www.linuxcertified.com/
    http://www.microtelpc.com/
    http://www.outpost.com/
    http://shoprcubed.com/
    http://www.sub300.com/
    http://www.systemax.com/divisions.htm
    http://www.walmart.com/
    http://www.xandros.com/

    http://tuxmobil.org/reseller.html
    http://www.us.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed
    http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/index.html

    http://tuxmobil.org/ (general information)

    No OS

    (Sabio made by Quanta, like Dell-latitudes)
    http://www.avadirect.com/
    http://www.asimobile.com/
    http://www.powernotebooks.com/

  17. PDA effect or discouraging Linux? by jav1231 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I could humorously say this the PDA effect. It seems any PDA that runs Linux is instantly more expensive than its CE counterpart and only available in Asia.
    I wonder, though, if this is part of Dell just doing this to say they offer Linux. I imagine their agreement with Microsoft requires them to attach a Windows license to the machine thus keeping the price structure equal to their other PC's. Either way it really sucks. OEM's need to start telling Microsoft to kiss off in situations like this. If Dell, HP, Toshiba, and the like did this it would go along way in helping level the playing field. I know, I know, where's the incentive?

  18. Windows costs by porkface · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The cost (to Dell) of Windows licenses will rise substantially if Dell starts (really) offering systems without Windows. Don't you people know anything about monopo-nomics?

  19. is anyone else tired of Zonk's love for xyz? by ianmassey · · Score: 2, Funny

    Every day it seems like there's a new link to xyzcomputing, which is possibly the most uninformative and sophomoric tech site in existence. Without exception, every link he's posted to their crappy site has been either A) dumb and uninteresting or B) a repeat of a previous Slashdot post as well as dumb and uninteresting.

    Here is the text of an email I just shot off to Zonk, i'll be curious to see if I get a response:

    Zonk,

    At a frequency which is RIDICULOUS, you post links to xyzcomputing.net on the Slashdot front page, for articles ranging from stupid and uninformative to COMPLETE REPEATS of stuff that was posted on Slashdot A MONTH AGO. To me, the only reason that would make any sense at all for you to be doing this is that you're pocketing money from xyzcomputing ad revenues. The site is garbage, their articles are juvenile, and they have never ONCE posted anything that hasn't already been dissected up, down and every which way elsewhere on the web. I request that you either provide a logical and proveable explanation for your repeated links to their site, or that you quit polluting Slashdot with their garbage.

    I eagerly await your response.

    Ian L. Massey
    Slashdot subscriber #743270

    In all seriousness, I do not spend money subscribing to Slashdot to see this dirge on such a frequent basis. No one and nothing is perfect, and I certainly do not expect this site to be an exception, but this has just gone too far. If he's pocketing xyzcomputing ad money then he can use some of it to refund my subscription fee, cause I'm tired of being exposed to this trash.