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Hydrogen-Emitting Microbe Examined

Concerned Onlooker wrote to mention an article at Science Daily discussing a microbe that lives in volcanic environments, which emits Hydrogen gas as a waste product. "As the world increasingly considers hydrogen as a potential biofuel, technology could benefit from having the genomes of such microbes. 'C. hydrogenoformans is one of the fastest-growing microbes that can convert water and carbon monoxide to hydrogen," remarks TIGR evolutionary biologist Jonathan Eisen, senior author of the PLoS Genetics study. "So if you're interested in making clean fuels, this microbe makes an excellent starting point.'"

35 of 192 comments (clear)

  1. Quick question by penguinoid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Where does the carbon monoxide come from?

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    1. Re:Quick question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Incomplete oxidation of carbon fuels.

      So, while you might be quick to think "we still need to burn fossil fuels to produce this hydrogen", the point is, currently it's a WASTE material.
      And besides, that, Its a nice carbon fixer.

      In theory, these bacteria could be burned to produce more carbon monoxide (of course, that's just speculation, but I assume they're carbon based life forms).

    2. Re:Quick question by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 4, Interesting
      In theory, these bacteria could be burned to produce more carbon monoxide

      Somehow I doubt that this would produce enough carbon monoxyde to keep the cycle going. You know, perpetuum mobiles and all (laws of physics apply to living creatures too!). Btw, it has already been tried with other critters.

    3. Re:Quick question by squoozer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Also, you are *speculating* that the bacteria are carbon-based? I'm pretty sure that all life on earth is carbon based. Isn't that the current theory of evolution as well?

      I think it is unlikely we will find squishy life that isn't carbon based simply because carbon is the only atom that can form highly complex molecules (well under extreme pressue silicon can form some fancy stuff but that's really academic). It's not that we haven't looked hard enough it's just plain impossible to form molecules as complex as DNA and proteins using anything other than carbon.

      Notice above that I said squishy life. I think it is entirely possible that we may develop or find machines that appear to us to be alive. If they were based around processors then I can believe we would have silicon based "life". It would be fundamentally different to us though. A lot of people, IMHO, fall into the trap of thinking that they will find life that is essentailly like us but made of silicon or some other element - that just isn't going to happen.

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    4. Re:Quick question by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Informative

      So, while you might be quick to think "we still need to burn fossil fuels to produce this hydrogen", the point is, currently it's a WASTE material.

      That's in the eye of the beholder. Solid oxide fuel cells can use carbon monoxide as fuel just as well as hydrogen. Carbon monoxide is a fairly energy rich substance. The guy who first prepared it in 1776 by heating ZnO and coke even thought he had made hydrogen because the blue flame it produces is so similar. I don't have numbers for CO and H2 handy, and if I did I'd be too lazy to check, but I'd suspect that burning a mole of CO releases more energy than burning a mole of H2, just by virtue of the fact that this bacterium makes its living converting H2O + CO -> CO2 + H2.

      I assume they're carbon based life forms

      Of course they are. Carbon monoxide is a fairly energy rich substance and is surprisingly inert. It kills you by forming a stable complex with the hemoglobin in your blood. It adheres to binding sites meant for oxygen (cyanide has an even greater affinity) and ruins the entire hemoglobin molecule. Bacteria generally have no use for oxygen binding and transport proteins, and do not use hemoglobin or any other heme-containing protein (except for nitrogen-fixing bacteria), so in general one would not expect them to care about carbon monoxide- although being able to eat it is impressive.

    5. Re:Quick question by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 3, Informative

      In industry, this process is called a water gas shift reaction. This is a *very* mature technology which has been used since the days of gas lighting.

      CO + H20 -> CO2 + H2

      This wouldn't be the first microbe investigated to replace water gas shift reactors, but previous examples would need to come a long way to even approach the economy of the inorganic method.

    6. Re:Quick question by shawb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope, they can't coexist (at least not function together.) This bacteria requires an anoxic environment, while the algae will release oxygen as a byproduct of photosynthysis.

      That said, I really don't think we can think of chemotrophs (organisms that survive by converting one chemical to another) as a very good energy source. Recreating their environment and feedstocks on an industrial scale would be very energy intensive. In the case of the bacteria in the article, even gathering and purifying the carbon monoxide from emissions of hydrocarbon burning energy plants would be quite energy inefficient. You can probably just forget about collecting the carbon monoxide from a car's tailpipe; it would be a total waste of energy.

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    7. Re:Quick question by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2, Informative
      (Hint: sun.)

      Except that the article didn't say anything about that bacterium's photosynthetic abilities. On the contrary, the article is making it pretty clear that the bacterium gets its energy by oxydizing carbon monoxyde to carbon dioxyde. Part of the energy goes into the hydrogen, and another part (the most important for the organism itself) goes into reducing CO to C for its own needs. However, it should be obvious than any energy that can be gained by oxydizing that C is much less than what went into making it in the first place. So, yes, you can reclaim some CO by durning the "dead" bacteria, but you will get far less of it than what it consumed during its life. You do need an external source of CO to keep the process going (in nature, this source is volcanic, and in industry it will have to be an incomplete combustion nearby that will need other fuels in addition to the bacteria themselves.)

  2. So how long... by Mo6eB · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...before somebody patents it?

  3. let me get this straight... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    so... my future car is gonna run off of a bunch of microbes farting? sounds like something out of family guy

  4. Excellent! by commodoresloat · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now we can invent cars that run purely on the farts of microbes.

  5. Working temperature? by hunte · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is a nice job for a microbe, but I don't have see any information about the working temperature that this microbe needs to make the chemical process... Maybe this could be another problem... The volcanic habitat it's very hot (and hard to emulate)...

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    1. Re:Working temperature? by squoozer · · Score: 3, Informative

      It might live near a volcano. It doesn't live in it! Even the most extreme extremophile is only able to withstand aroudn 120 degC. Nothing like the 700+ found in the heart of volcanos. The environment might be hard to replicate but not because of the temperature. More likely it will be hard to replicate because we probably don't properly understand the chemistry of the bacterias natural environment.

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    2. Re:Working temperature? by budgenator · · Score: 3, Informative

      Certainly if by survive you mean supendining metabolic activity, in a bacteria context it's called sporulative form as oppose to spores in fungi which is more of a "seed-like" form. The bacteria in the article are spore orming, When growing conditions aren't right, they form spores and go into a hardened form of bacteria "suspended animation" until conditions improve. Anthrax does this as the article mentions, I've heard of anthrax spores being infective on the order of decades.

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  6. So it "converts" ... by Ihlosi · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ... water (H2O) and carbon monoxide (CO) to Hydrogen (H2). What does it do with all the other atoms (one C, two O) ? Let me guess ... it makes carbon dioxide ?


    1. Re:So it "converts" ... by penguinoid · · Score: 2, Informative

      Plants get their hydrogen from water -- so I can see getting hydrogen from GM plants as being useful, especially since they are cheap solar cells.

      A current method of getting hydrogen is by passing steam over coal -- basically burning coal in water. I can't imagine it being much different to burn carbon monoxide in water to get steam, but maybe these bacteria do it more efficiently than we can?

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    2. Re:So it "converts" ... by value_added · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'd be careful of anything involving dyhdrogen monoxide.

      Dihydrogen Monoxide is not believed to be carcinogenic, although it is known to be a component of a number of cancer-causing agents. Additionally, the cause of approximately 20 percent of all cancers is not known, and there is reason to suspect that DHMO may play some role in these as well. Clearly, more research is needed before DHMO's role is fully enumerated.

      More information is available from the main website

    3. Re:So it "converts" ... by squoozer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is just a bacterial version of the water-gas shift reaction. What makes people think that a microbe is going to be any more efficient that a big hunk of specially designed plant (sorry for the pun).

      The bacteria might be cheap but it comes with a huge amount of overhead in terms of having to maintain all its cellular functions. I bet half it's energy is wated multiplying.

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    4. Re:So it "converts" ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I bet half it's energy is wasted multiplying.

      I have the same problem...
    5. Re:So it "converts" ... by alba7 · · Score: 2, Informative
      All the CO it takes in is converted to H2; this is how it "breathes".

      Nonsense.
      Conversion of carbon or oxygen to hydrogen requires nuclear fission.
      No such life form exists outside science fiction.

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  7. Eh? by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 4, Funny

    From the opening of the article:

    Take a pot of scalding water, remove all the oxygen, mix in a bit of poisonous carbon monoxide, and add a pinch of hydrogen gas. It sounds like a recipe for a witch's brew. It may be, but it is also the preferred environment for a microbe known as Carboxydothermus hydrogenoformans.

    If you remove the oxygen, won't you be left with Hydrogen anyway?

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    1. Re:Eh? by Walkiry · · Score: 4, Informative

      >If you remove the oxygen, won't you be left with Hydrogen anyway?

      It was referring to the atmospheric oxygen (O2). This microbe is anaerobic.

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  8. A reverse form of catalytic converter by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This can be used for another form of Hydrogen Boost for Truckers. Instead of using electicity and water, it can use water, exaust gas, and microbe. Not only will it further reduce emissions by using them to produce hydrogen.

  9. A few questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is very interesting indeed. A low-energy process by which free hydrogen can be produced. But a few questions.

    - The article mentions that oxygens need to be removed from the water; How much energy does this require?
    - In what quantities is the hydrogen produced; What quantities is needed to power a fuel cell?
    - How efficient is this process compared to electrolysis.

    Also it says that the water needs to be boiling in order for the microbes to have optimal conditions; But then of course the energy has to come from somewhere. The water might be heated using solar or wind power i guess. Which brings us back to to the storage problem, and most hydrogen storage solutions(not based on pressure-tanks) require heat to release the hydrogen.

    1. Re:A few questions by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While I do not know the answer to #1, But I would guess not much.

      As to how efifcient or the quantities, it probably does not matter if if can be used on a waste product. That is, if we use if on the exhaust from a power plant. Then, not only is the power plant cleaning up after itself, but it also has a product to sell.

      As to electrolysis, well, I do know THAT it is every inefficient. Doing a water shift is much cheaper, and more efficient.

      As to the storage, that is a different issue (you have already established via eltrolysis comparision, that this is desirable). There was a recent approach to H2 storage, that was suppose to be efficient, cheap, safe, and easy to do (news in the future at 11).

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    2. Re:A few questions by penguinoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The article mentions that oxygens need to be removed from the water; How much energy does this require?

      Not much, if any significant portion of the water is converted to hydrogen.

      In what quantities is the hydrogen produced; What quantities is needed to power a fuel cell?

      One molecule of hydrogen for each molecule of carbon monoxite. How much wattage does your fuel cell output?

      How efficient is this process compared to electrolysis.

      Probably more so; however, how efficient is it compared to making hydrogen by burning coal in steam?

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  10. Mods on crack? by MaelstromX · · Score: 4, Interesting

    No, the article says that the organism intakes CO and H2O and expels H2. This does not mean that a simple reaction occurs with CO and H2O as reactants and H2 as a product.

    From TFA:

    The bug boasts at least five different forms of a protein machine, dubbed carbon monoxide deyhydrogenase, that is able to manipulate the poisonous gas. Each form of the machine appears to allow the organism to use carbon monoxide in a different way. Most other organisms that live on carbon monoxide have only one form of this machine. In other words, while other organisms may have the equivalent of a modest mixing bowl to process their supper of carbon monoxide, this species has a veritable food processor, letting it gorge on a hot spring buffet all day.

    So apparently the CO is acted upon by the proteins, and likely the H2O is used to sustain other life processes in some other way, and the H2 is simply the end result of some metabolic process at the end. If you want to account for the C and the O's, they probably went into forming some protein somewhere.

  11. Prior art by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 3, Funny
    Unfortuately, when this gets in to the wild, it mutates into a microbe that eats plastic, and aeoroplanes drop from the sky like stones.

    As described in a 1950's science fiction story.

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  12. PBS NOVA ScienceNOW by t0ddsh3rman · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is a good 14min broadcast of whats involved with hydrogen as a viable fuel source.
    I believe the question of where to get the hydrogen from is discussed and microbes come up.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3210/01.ht ml

    1. Re:PBS NOVA ScienceNOW by penguinoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Currently, all our hydrogen comes from fossil fuels. But that's not a problem; hydrogen can be gotten in other ways. Until they can solve the hydrogen storage problem, I don't see hydrogen going anywhere (except through the tank walls). I think that for fuel cells, alcohol or methane would be better. For cars, use biodiesel, which works in unmodified diesel cars, or alcohol, or methane (methane and alcohol can be made from some waste products)

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  13. Not new, but maybe promising by jxm387 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When I worked at Mobil as an engineer (before Exxon swalled them) there was a project working on microbes that consumed CO2 and excreted long chain hydrocarbons that could be used as fuel. Unfortunately they were slow and difficult to control. I imagine that microbes thriving under volcanic conditions would be hard to use commercially, but perhaps the conditions could be replicated in certain settings or the mechanism transplanted into other microbes (any microbiologists want to comment?). The ideas are good but the technology is a long way off!

  14. Re:bad stomach bug! by Soruk · · Score: 2, Informative

    Methane has no smell. Otherwise the gas companies would have no need to add the artificial smell to mains and bottled gas (at least they do in UK). What you're smelling are probably sulphur compounds.

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  15. What the hell is that called? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When you read the article they have these things that look like explanatory hyperlinks to words like 'water', 'research' and 'scientists', but are, instead, commercials tied to the words. What is this called? Whatever it's called, it's VERY IRRITATING. And I wish Slashdot would not use submissions based on web pages that do this. When I am tricked into an advertisement this way I feel like I've crawled into bed with someone who suprises you with both male and female sex organs. It just doesn't seem right to be surprised like that.

  16. Re:Insightfull my ass by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That seems like a pretty ignorant stance your citizens are taking. The safest place to store nuclear waste is to put it back in the ground where you got it from. Why not just use old uranium mines to store the waste? It's not like anyone wants to live next to a uranium mine anyway.

  17. Everyone can read the whole paper online by dnarepair · · Score: 2, Informative

    The paper was published in an Open Access journal so you can all browse that if the press release is too basic. Go to http://genetics.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request =get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pgen.0010065