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E-Tracking May Change the Way You Drive
frdmfghtr writes "ZDNet.com is running a story about a runaway idea of a tracking automobiles via GPS. Not to be confused with the Canadian project geared towards anti-speeding ideas, this one does in fact have the goal of tracking your vehicle. 'The U.S. Department of Transportation has been handing millions of dollars to state governments for GPS-tracking pilot projects designed to track vehicles wherever they go. So far, Washington state and Oregon have received fat federal checks to figure out how to levy these 'mileage-based road user fees.' However, the article goes on to talk about how there is no provision in place to prevent the uncontrolled surveillance of motorists without a court order."
mileage-based road user fees.
Didn't we pay taxes to build the roads in the first place? Will these fees be accompanied by the reduction of taxes, since they are getting transportation funding elsewhere?
This could be useful in figuring out which roads need expansion, and it could help with traffic routing. Imagine the effect on stoplights. They'll know which way has the biggest backup, etc. Of course, they could do most of this non-invasively.
Of course, this'll be touted as an anti-theft thing or something, and everyone will jump all over it.
As an avid cyclist, I'd love to assume it will end at user fees. But just because that's what the system is designed for doesn't mean that's how this stuff will end up.
If this kind of thing goes live I'd say that it's just a matter of time before some desperate politician campaigns on turning this into an "anti-terrorism" device... similar tracking systems are already in place for trains and (obviously) airplanes. Between this and RFID I'd say that it's just a matter of time until either the government or our employer knows our location (give or take a couple meters) 24/7.
(Yes, I am paranoid.. thanks for pointing that out)
We already have mileage based tracking without GPS. It's called an odometer.
In states with annual inspections, it's trivial to record odometer readings too, and tax based on that.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Why stop there? I'd be willing to pay more taxes so that the government could install surveillance cameras in every room of every citizen's home. It would help with illegal drug usage, private gambling, prostitution, wife-beating, child molestation, and a whole host of other problems. If you don't have anything to hide you really shouldn't be against it. The possibilities are limitless.
Why shouldn't those who use a public facility more be also forced to pay more?
It seems pretty straightforward to me.
Of course. But why implement a huge, complex and expensive tracking system when there is an existing mechanism to charge road users based on usage?
It's called a gas tax. You drive more, you pay more tax. Simple and efficient. If you want to get a little fancier, the DMV charges more to register heavy vehicles (which damage the road more) than lighter vehicles.
The only reason to have this GPS system is to track the population, and they're trying to sell it as a "road-usage" fee.
It's almost time to vote from the rooftops.
Odometers can be run back a bit (not recommended) if you want (between inspections). Also, they don't say where the driving took place. If I live in West Virginia and commute to DC, I'm using Virginia's roads, but West Virginia is the one charging me under your plan.
(I actually live in Virginia and have the roads clogged by the aforementioned commuters)
How do they propose to install one of these devices in any of my vehicles??
There will be no such device ever installed in any vehicle I ever own.
BTW, all of my vehicles are over 20 years old and long ago fully paid for in full.
They'll have just as much luck installing one of these things in my vehicle as they will inserting a RFID chip under my skin.
Not only is this completely unnecessary but let me get one thing straight. We do not have the right to abuse our power as citizens but the government has the power to go beyond it's boundaries and watch our every move? What is this bull. There is no point in monitoring someone's progress in car. In order to solve a problem you need to find the root cause of it. If you want us traveling at a slow 50-mph then there should be no cars in the united states which can go beyond that limit. So why do we still see GTO's, Porsche and other cars which are never designed to go just at 50MPH. Your wasting money on this crap. Also GPS cannot work where it does not get a signal. So in some states this would simply be useless. For then you come up with another thing out of your @@@ which is less reliable than the other. Good Job. Keep screwing us over.
And you care if the police know your location... why?
Because there are quite a few laws in this great nation which I (occasionally) ignore. I speed, I drink* (not at the same time, mind you), smoke illicit drugs... I don't feel I do any of these things in a reckless manner, and feel that my behavior is in line with the American spirit of freedom.
The ability to exercise my free will as mentioned above would be rendered impossible were the government able to watch my every move, convict me of my every 'crime.' In short, I have no fear of being called a terrorist.. at worst I could be labeled a drug addict, unfortunately that would be enough to land me in jail (no voting rights, no freedom).
* a criminal offense because I'm not 21...
Also, there's a big difference between tracking you when you're in a public space (like a road) and installing a camera into your home so policemen can watch you jack off.
And there's my beef: the slippery slope. If we let this fly, watch the "big difference" between them disappear. It isn't anyone's GOD DAMNED business when and where I go. I like to keep it that way.
No offense friend, but you trust the Government too much. Haven't you learned anything from 1984? Could you ever imagine technology like this if Hitler was in power, after all, he was elected. I think people think just because they live in what they believe to be a free Country, such as America, that you are immune to these types of realities. No me, no way, I'll walk.
The ability to exercise my free will as mentioned above would be rendered impossible were the government able to watch my every move, convict me of my every 'crime.'
You'll still be able to exercise you're free will. You'll just be punished in accordance with the law whenever you do something that breaks it. There are no parantheses around crime. If the law says it's illegal, it's a crime.
The problem with law enforcement agencies becoming more efficient with enforcing laws, is up until now they haven't been able to get TOO efficient. So people haven't cared too much about things being illegal.
How about instead of attacking the law enforcement agencies for trying to do their job (protect and serve the people by enforcing the laws their representatives enact on behalf of their constitutents), you work towards changing the laws? But then again, that's much more difficult. It's much easier to simply break the law, and hope you don't get caught.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
One great thing about having this power in the hands of the police, is that the police are always people you can trust. Same with the FBI. There aren't any corrupt cops, police power is never used discretionarily to harass people the local police doesn't like (or for that matter, political enemies of the federal government). As government agencies, they also have data security second to none! Just like the DMV, no-one will be able to misuse this information!
Sounds great all around!
"Instead of posting rhetoric why don't you say what your problem with this system actually is?"
His "rhetoric" as you put it, is the same "rhetoric" the OP used to justify his support:
"This is a great idea, it would help with drunk drivers, crimes, and speeding. If you dont have anything to hide you really shouldnt be against it."
Why is it okay to "argue" like this in favor of big brother, but not flip it on it's head against big brother?
You and the rest of the pro-big brother crowd are fools. You have no concept of where this is all heading. You think governments are a bunch of selfless public servants only looking out for our good. If you didn't think such a naive stupid thing, you wouldn't argue for this.
9/11 happened, and what was the result? We passed the patriot act which would not have stopped 9/11. This is a government that views us a threat and because of that, any sane and rational person who has any love of freedom needs to recognize that they are a threat to our freedom and individual autonomy.
You want a non-rhetoric reason for why this shouldn't pass? I'll give you one, though I think the OP hit a homer with his reply... I don't want to live in a god damned police state where my every move can be tracked. It isn't because I have something to hide, it's because I'm not a fucking inmate in a prison. I haven't violated any laws that should require me to be under surveillance all the time. That's bullshit. I don't want to be under surveilance. We have better technologies to deal with car theft, drunk drivers, and speeding, that don't require putting us all under defacto surveilance.
Why aren't the other options explored? For the same reason we got the patriot act in response to 9/11, instead of secured borders... POWER.
I just read with comments set to level 1. It was alarming: many of the people in the low-ranked comments are in support of this idea. These are your fellow citizens!
If there is some sort of plan to turn Americans into a passive, watched population, it's working. People actively want to be spied upon. It makes them feel "safer."
If you, like me, think this is a step toward the loss of our valuable ideals of freedom, you sure as hell had better start speaking up. These gullible, frightened people are driving our government. We need to stop them and the only way to accomplish that is to become more politically active.
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The ability to exercise my free will as mentioned above would be rendered impossible were the government able to watch my every move, convict me of my every 'crime.' In short, I have no fear of being called a terrorist.. at worst I could be labeled a drug addict, unfortunately that would be enough to land me in jail (no voting rights, no freedom).
I notice in this thread that everybody supporting privacy mentions doing so because of petty crimes they commit.
What's important to understand is *why* the concept of privacy is so classically important. Originally, we weren't a nation of laws, at all. Crimes were "against the people" and it was up to a jury of one's peers to decide if a crime had been committed, and if so, of what nature, and what the punishment should be.
Privacy was assumed, because you didn't commit a crime unless you injured somebody else in some way - either personally, or their property. Are you going to go to a jury and try to get them to arrest you for smoking a bit o' weed? Popping pills? Beating your horse? Where's the crime, if nobody gets hurt?
This all changed just after the Civil War, where the jury system fell flat on its face due to widespread racism, mostly in the south. How would a black fella get a fair trial in a matter involving a dispute with a white folk? Either 1) Jurors are white, in which case he'd hang for blowing snot on the boss' hankie, or 2) Jurors are black, so he gets off scott-free.
So, offenses and penalties were codified, and state constitutions all over the place were altered, introducing this new "Penal Code" that everybody was suppposed ta follow.
In this Penal Code, crimes were ratified as laws of the state, and had clear, definite actions to commit that were considered crimes, and penalties were clearly and definitely stated.
This is perhaps one of the biggest expansions of US Govt powers in its history - far, far greater than the DMCA, and the PATRIOT acts put together! It has resulted in a burgeoning swarm of laws, rules, regulations, and silly exceptions, as well as an entire horde of busy lawyers and paralegals.
Now, people worry about committing crimes without any directly hurt party, and a state busy executing its rights to your health. Introduce socialized health-care and/or health insurance, and suddenly, smoking clove ciggies costs other insured parties quite a bit of money. Now, hurting yourself DOES hurt somebody else, and there are numerous state/federal laws above and beyond the obvious.
Once laws are codified, they don't go away. It's rare that a govornment willfully reduces the laws on the books!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Aren't gas taxes basically a pay-per-use fee for motorists for infrustructure building?
Gas taxes have the advantage of being anonymous, plus they promote lower gas-usage vehicles. The only reason I can think that anybody would consider using GPS in favor of simply taxing fuel is that they want to LOWER the taxes on gas, thus prices at the pump. You lower gas prices, and you're GUARANTEED to get re-elected.
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The initial impetus for this was alternate fuel vehicles. An electric car you plug in at home now pays no road taxes like a car at the pump. The same goes for propane or natural gas vehicles you fill at home. As vehicles go away from filling at a gas pump that collects taxes per gallon another model is needed.
Coming up with the mechanism for billing by gallon, watt, therm, amp, whatever and separating what you use in your car vs what you use in the oven isn't practical. So to assign the taxes based on use mileage ( or even "hours on the road" ) needs to be figured out. It's got to happen.
Even with an odometer, a mechanism taxing for mileage by state would be needed. Especially with the smaller states in the northeast where people live in one, work in one and transit a third to get to work each day. As long as you're figuring out which state you might as well figure out things like toll roads, bridges and time of day congestion usage.
It's going to be GPS. Anything else requires a more elaborate infrastructure.
What it doesn't have to be is privacy-hostile. Rather than uploading your entire driving history, the "road tax road map" could be uploaded into the unit in the vehicle. With the schedule of tariffs for your particular vehicle onboard, all you really need to reveal is the taxes owed. No need to reveal whether you went 1000 miles in a high-congestion area or 10,000 miles of night time interstate driving, just that you owe $5.95 in taxes. ( Expect this to be used as a by-use insurance tool as well)
There has to be a way to have drivers pay for use of the roads. Ideally we won't be limited to gasoline engines, so charging $ per gallon won't always work. An alternative is needed. Arguing about privacy impacts of a GPS receiver in the car is fine, and appropriate. But better would be to come up with a viable alternative to bill users for road use that is independent from fuel delivery.
Maybe you don't have a reason to care, but lots and lots of your fellow citizens do have reasons.
Anything like this would be likely to have security leaks. Probably big ones. So what if someone with $1000 in hand could find out where your car is right now? Let's say it's:
1. Your ex-spouse, who has a grudge, a temper, and a .44 magnum.
2. The leader of the gang whose homey was just sentenced for a robbery that you were a witness to.
3. That person you met in the bar last week who just won't leave you alone.
4. The burglary ring who's looking for people more than 500 miles from home so they can have a nice cup of tea and a sit down while they are stripping your digs.
I'm sure everyone has other examples. And, by the way, not every person in law enforcement is unfailing honest and upright. Sometimes they fit right into scenarios like those above. Or worse. Just Google ' "Ramparts Division" Scandal' for an example.
And you care if the police know your location... why?
Because the police have been known to judge guilt by association based on a person's location. 1960s monitoring of groups with unpopular politics comes to mind, as does 1970s enemies lists.
It's easier for a government to crush dissent when it knows where the journalists are.
Try being a whistleblower on government impropriety when the government knows the location of every automobile to which you have access.
Good luck attending a meeting of the Sons of Liberty when King George has GPS tracking devices on your horses. Attention! The horse of suspected traitor REVERE, PAUL has shown up on the console as moving west from Boston. Stop and detain.
If you think the use of data from mandatory GPS units in privately-owned automobiles would be limited to collecting "user fees," you're being incredibly naive. Some well-meaning legislator would next decide that we ought to be keeping tabs on where sex offenders are going during school hours. Someone else will decide that we ought to know where people convicted of multiple DUIs are going.
Respect the temptation that power gives to well-meaning men. Respect the likelihood that given enough power, any of us would become a tyrant. Limit the power you, as a sovereign citizen, give to your fellow man.
Please post your full, real name, home, school/work, and cell phone numbers, unaltered email addresses, home and school/work address, job title, vehicle descriptions and license plate numbers, and a link to a recent photograph of yourself.
Or, admit that privacy has its benefits after all.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
I was told once by a cop, that if you follow some one long enough, they will eventualy commit a trafic violation. It maybe something as minor as not using a turn signal or failing to signal within the required distance the law dictates before you turn.
With this in mind, If i had it in for you, I could always find out were you were and then cite you for enought violations you license points out and get suspended oryour insurance get so expensive you cannot affors it anymore. If i was going to do somethign like this, I would target those with different political opinions or ideas that threaten my livleyhood. Maybe i would get borred and target minorities or just church goers. Maybe even the parrents of the child that beat mine up over a game of marbles at school the previous week. How about just screwing with someone who i gave a ticket to and they got out of it because i made a mistake.
The idea of using this to make sure road use taxes are being paid is idiotic. The fact is you pay your road use taxes when you buy a gallon of gasoline. You also contibute when the vehicle is registared and when you buy tires (yes there is a DOT fee on tires hidden in the price) As for big trucks or comercial vehicles, Well this is also taken car of with IFTA reporting and regular audits. Each shipper reports thier shipments so cariors cannot fudge the report. IFTA rules regulate you pay usage on Five mile to the gallon for class eight vehicles (even if you get better milage It changes acording the the use and weight of the vehicle) and every gallong of fuel except that marked for offroad use (noted with a die in the fuel) have the tax already in place when purchased. The drivers report the miles driving in thier log book, the company reports milage in thier IFTA statemnts or routing reports and also when reporting thier income statments as well as tax deductions. The states track comercial vehicles entering and leaving states as well as different parts of the states. Fuel reciept also track were the vehicle has been and is regularly availible to inspecters (fuel card transactions).
You even pay road tax to mow your lawn in most cases. The idea that a car might be driving too much without paying is a load bull. This is just some lame excuse to invade what was normaly considerd private. The problem is more fuel eficient vehicles and alternative fuel vehicles are using less fuel or fuel that isn't being taxed. This can be easily corected by charging a higher fuel tax at the pump or increase registration fees for vehicles that get more milage. For some reason the government want to know were you are, were you were and what time you were there.
Most people will look at the conditions of the roads around them and think this is neccesary. The problem is that road use money is being diverted from the roads and used for other things. Installing these devices are not going to fix that or the roads. It is only going to cost money and allow more money to be diverted.