Slashdot Mirror
Cameras Online? How The Shysters Work
earlylate writes "How do certain photo and electronics dealers thrive despite widely-circulated warnings by unhappy customers? According to a new investigative website "many apparently separate and competing dealers are actually jointly owned and run" and "go to great lengths to conceal their locations and management." Further, some comparison-shopping sites "are in effect marketing partners with their affiliates," the very dealers they rate. There's a contest based on the suspicious "flood of similar, glowing reviews some dealers receive," as well as links to several sources of information and advice for the careful online shopper."
Here are some interesting pictures of the storefronts
Front doors
You mean something like this?
I had this about 2 years ago, ordered a camera from a place in NYC for a great price, they called to 'confirm the order' and tried to sell me extra batteries, and other stuff...telling me that the stock battery won't last long enough. I said no, they said OK, they never shipped, when I called I got the same runaround, also, not to be racist but I could tell they were arab, but they'd tell me their names were 'Steve' or 'Brad'. I ended up getting yelled at after I called again, and cancelled my order. I contacted my CC card and made sure they didn't/couldn't chage me...but it gave me a bad feeling for ordering online from smaller places. It reminds me of the 419 scams since all the websites look professional - but share similar graphics, you can tell it's a front. Wish I remembered the name of the company, but I'm sure they've swapped names by now. I just went and paid 50$ more thru amazon, and had the new cam in two days.
fak3r.com
The two I trust:
PriceWatch.com
ResellerRatings.com
They all researched the cameras they wanted, and they thought they had adequately investigated the dealers. They saw the full-page ads in major photo magazines, the professionally-designed websites, the high dealer ratings on prominent search-sites. They saw all the trappings of the modern online secure shopping site. They trusted that their credit card companies, the respected magazines, and even the states which are home to the merchants, would help ensure a good transaction. And, of course, the prices were hard to resist. Why were our friends ultimately disappointed?
We took a look at some of the factors and some of the businesses involved, and we offer the information we've found to all who are considering purchasing cameras, video equipment and electronics from the comfort of their living rooms and offices.
This website is a partial scorecard. We hope it will help readers understand who some of the better-known dealers are, what's behind the ads and websites, and how to find further information.
We believe that open information benefits both consumers and dealers. We think the whole photographic industry -- hobbyists, professionals, dealers and manufacturers -- is healthier when consumers have clear idea of how to research a transaction and whom they will be dealing with.
We've tried to make these pages accurate. All the information included is from public sources. If you know of any errors, please inform us and we will correct them at once. If you have further information you think we should be aware of, contact us. (Please -- no rumors or speculation; only confirmable facts.)
Our contact details are here.
WELL KNOWN DEALERS
We have examined some of the online dealers who specialize in cameras and electronics, looking behind the ads and websites to find out who they are and how they do business. We chose some of the most visible companies -- the ones with heavy national advertising and prominent ranking on internet search engines. Many of them have sprung up in the last few years, while some have been around online and in traditional stores for decades.
Judging from customer surveys, newsgroup discussions and published articles, some of them are held in high regard while others are despised.
There were some surprises. The biggest one is that many apparently separate and competing dealers are actually jointly owned and run. This is no secret to followers of the many online photography and video forums, but we believe the intertwining is unsuspected by most consumers. On this site we've grouped many of the dealers into "families" to clarify their identities. They form a truly tangled web, with many overlapping corporate connections, addresses and telephones.
Another surprise was that some dealers act mainly as brokers, with little or no inventory of their own and no "real stores." In our opinion this should not disqualify a business from consideration, but it does contribute to frequent misunderstandings about what is "in stock".
The biggest obstacle to any research is that some dealers go to great lengths to conceal their locations and management. Sadly, this disguising seems to be the norm for many newer, web-only merchants.
We believe that open information benefits both consumers and dealers.
We have included the names of individuals where we could find them, so that consumers know whom to contact with compliments or questions or complaints about a specific transaction.
We believe that a businessperson who is proud of the way his or her business is conducted will be proud to be publicly associated with it.
Some of our information may be out of date, as some companies may change location, telephone numbers or personnel. We welcome updates or corrections via email here.
Sources Cited Much of the information on these pages is attributed to these sources:
Don't anthropomorphize computers: they hate that.
unless it is adorama or B&H photo. They don't do sucker deals and have good reps in Photography circles.
Jonathan
Some fellow slashdotter mentioned this already in another similar story. Anyway, you were looking for this:
http://donwiss.com/pictures/ManhattanStores/
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/
I suppose you could still add to this since you are so enthusiastic about this.
Okay, except for maybe B&H Photo :)
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1914.html
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Under one of the end zones in Giants Stadium.
HTH
Specifically, I wanted the camera body without the lens. The best prices listed were roughly $460 or so. I actually placed my order at a couple of the sites - the order was accepted and everything looks normal. Then I invariably got an email from the sites asking me to confirm the order by calling them.
Then the crap begings.
Apparently this item is just a camera body without anything else in the box. No batteries, no manual, etc. Canon does not even sell the camera this way, so I am not sure what they are claiming to sell.
Fundamentally they refused to sell me the camera listed at the price advertised. "Surely you want the kit with lens?", "The kit without the lens?", "The extended warranty?", and a "How about the warranty in the US?" (even though the web site claimed it had the US warranty).
I felt like this was a scene from Monty Python's "Cheese Shop".
I replied "no" to all of these and asked them to just sell me the camera body as advertised. They basically refused - saying they don't have it on hand - and that it would take 8 to 10 weeks to get one (well after the holidays). Then they essentially cancelled my order and hung up without providing me an opportunity to actually order the camera at the price advertised.
I believe we have laws in our state (New York) about offering rain checks for advertised items that our out of stock. How come so many of these sleeze bag camera shops - which are also based in New York - are exempt from such rules and regulations? Do Interstate commerce rules trump NY rules?
Anyway - the whole experience was incredibly annoying. I wound up using http://www.techbargains.com/ to find electronic discount coupons from Dell - which was actually a better final price than any of the other camera shops I tried.
I've been using Citibank/ATT Universal Card for online purchase. You can download an application that will let you generate a unique card number for each purchase. You can also limit the amount and set the expiration date.
After the purchase you can modify the amount or date and even cancel the number.
It won't stop you from making a dumb purchase but it will prevent excessive charges and unauthorized addtional charges to your credit card.
BTW: if it's less than $1000.00 you are pretty much hosed. I lost $500.00 to a scammer auto parts dealer on the east coast (read my blog for the name and location) and after getting my lawyer poised and finding out how much to bring the small claims suit against them It was much cheaper to simply drop it as it would have cost me $1500.00 to sue him... These scammers know this and that is why they rarely venture over that $1000.00 line.
Most state filing fees are under $100, and in some states you can even recover the fee if you win the case. One doesn't normally bring a lawyer to small claims court--that is why it would have cost you $1500 to recover $1000.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
I, and my company, buy plenty from B&H and Adorama. Also had good experiences with K&M.
It's like any other major purchase... do your homework. Look for stores with established brick & mortar business and reputation. Don't be lured by too-good-to-be-true deals (they really are). Ask around with people who are in the know (there are plenty of photography enthusiast websites out there).
Yes, there are a lot of shady people running shady ops in shady neighborhoods in the NY area. But that doesn't mean there aren't reputable shops as well.
Caveat emptor.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
There are a few fine NY stores: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/ http://www.adorama.com/ http://www.jandr.com/ In particular, B&H tends to carry everything photo related. Adorama carries almost as much as B&H. I've seen people happy with J&R, and I think 17th Street Photo (but I'm not sure of the last one), but they don't tend to have the depth B&H and Adorama has. So if you need say an Olympus 35-100mm f/2 lens, they will carry it, but you will get the glazed eye look if you ask for it at Best Buy. My one beef with B&H is they don't want to ship to maildrop places like The UPS store (I've had problems with delivery to the house, and prefer to get things delivered to the UPS store where somebody will sign for it, and I can pick it up at my leisure). So I tend to order from Adorama more often. Note that the price on these stores tends to be a fair price, but it isn't a 'deal' that the scam sites pretend to have.
What are you pair talking about? A shyster can be any cheat:
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=shyster
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shyster
Where did the Judaism ref com into things?
Justin.
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
...the same rules apply now that applied 35 years ago when I started buying photo equipment. Most are places that will screw you one way or another. Some are downright crooks. And there are a few gems that stay in business year after year, garnering more and more loyal customers even though their prices aren't rock bottom.
Personally, I use BHPhotoVideo.com for darn near everything photographic. Some things, like flash brackets, are personal taste problems. You just gotta touch and feel before buying. But for everything else, B&H is either the best or so close I can't tell the difference. They're businesslike (even brusque, sometimes) on the phone but they're also professional and reliable. The number of similarly high-quality online dealers in this market segment can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Actually, you only need two - B&H and Adorama. There are a few specialty dealers who are good for other things and if you need what they sell, they're wonderful. But for the full line of general photo gear available online, it's B&H and Adorama.
The best guidance I know of for buying a camera or related equipment in the U.S. is at photo.net.
unscrupulous lawyer 1843, U.S. slang, probably altered from Ger. Scheisser "incompetent worthless person," from Scheisse "shit," from O.H.G. skizzan "to defecate" (see shit).
shyster--'shIs-t Etymology: probably from German Scheisser, literally, defecator
: one who is professionally unscrupulous especially in the practice of law or politics : PETTIFOGGER
You're not helping anyone. You make people with a legitimate beef look petty and you present people with no bad intentions at all as anti-semitic (or specifically anti-Jewish, as there are a lot more semitic people than just Jews).
Now, go into a closet and say "niggardly" a hundred times.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
resellerratings.com is generally quite good and the results can be trusted. Of course, one should browse to be certain a particular store wasn't recently flooded with fake positive reviews.
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
I'll add my $0.02 based on my personal shopping experiences. I've had good results with:
Newegg (low prices, responsive customer service, prompt, very wide selection)
ZipZoomFly (lots of free 2nd day shipping, low prices, responsive customer service)
TechForLess (Bought an open-box UPS from them. Prompt, good prices)
AtomicPark (Software mainly but good prices and free shipping for holidays)
Amazon (books, cds, dvds)
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I just buy from B&H Photo or Adorama. They've been around for years and their prices are as low as you'll usually find. I've never had any problems ordering or returning merchandise and they don't pressure you.
http://www.bhphoto.com/
http://www.adorama.com/
The markups on electronics are very slim. If someone is selling you an electronic product for hundreds below everyone else you're being ripped off.
Actually, AMEX hasn't been as bad as I thought from the merchant side. The discount rate's not great, but I can live with it. Getting set up wasn't hard, and I pay like $5/month for service. Granted, I have very little AMEX volume, and larger merchants pay more. But no complaints so far...
He's confused shyster with shylock. For the benefit of the very young or completely uneducated, let me explain. Shylock was the Jewish usurer in Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice who lent money to Antonio. Their contract stipulated that Shylock could take compensation in the form of a pound of Antonio's flesh if Antonio failed to repay the loan. When Antonio is unable to pay off the loan, Shylock attempts to take his pound of flesh. Over the past 400 years, the term shylock has become a pejorative to mean any greedy or money-grubbing Jew.
In all likelihood it got dragged into the U.S. via Yiddish, hence the Semitic connection. Calling a Jewish lawyer a shyster is probably rather tasteless.
This is not my sandwich.
I stopped trusting Consumer Reports when they dinged some really nice mountain bikes for having front brakes that are "too powerful".
If you can't lock up both wheels on dry pavement, your brakes are set up wrong. It's wise to not do that, but on a bicycle you are the ABS.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I recently purchased a Canon digital camera. I called the tech support line and asked for a recommendation. They sent me to a reputable reseller.
Actually Consumer Reports is written by experts, NOT consumers. It is written for consumers. Their magazines contain no advertisements whatsoever and they do not accept money from any companies, so they have unbiased reviews.
There is no sig
Sorry but lack of full information constitutes a market failure. [In non economophonics that means that free market assumptions are not given to hold, err, it means the g-parent was right about this.]
;)
If you are really interested there is plenty of informational economic theory out there.
It is actually one of the central excuses for why stores don't actually sell things at "P=MC" [price = marginal cost].
Imagine that there are 15 stores selling the same thing (old school, no internet) and they are spaced an average of 5 miles apart. The cost of driving from store to store (gas, your time, etc.) all contribute to 'search costs.' In fact the order in which you go from store to store effects how much it will costs you at any given store to buy the thing. This all breaks down to the fact that we make a decision at some point (and you know it is true) to stop looking and just buy the damn thing... Search costs are not needed when perfect information is already available, and hence stores can charge that much more than marginal cost for a product. There are actual mathmatical models of such things, but I would imagine most can catch the drift. [Consequently someone offering you a list of what those 3 stores charged for the item would have a value to you also...]
This whole Internet 'thing' really is a war over search costs
BTW Tinfoil/Think to make you go "Hmm..." - Maybe having effective ranking/rating/pricing sites is not exactly a top-priority for the smart businessman... Mis-information raises those search costs...
This is _exactly_ my mentality lately.
Those are the only two stores I have ordered off of in the past year... and I've ordered thousands of dollars worth of things for my house (just got married)...
Trying to get the extra $5 off of something by using some shady site just isn't worth it anymore. Newegg and Amazon are always within 1% of the bottom of the barrel sites and I don't even have to think twice about ordering from them (actually... my credit card is just saved at both.... so I can order at will).
A little piece of mind is worth a lot!
Friedmud
1. I submitted this site because thousands of camera buyers are victimized every year. Slashdot members, being more web-savvy than average, may be more aware and thus less susceptible. And less surprised at the site's information.
2. The word "shyster" was nowhere in my submission.
3. Many members send in links to promote commercial sites. The site I submitted is more or less a public service.
4. DANGEROUS GROUND alert! Perhaps slashdot should examine whether the shopping comparison site it is allied with is one of those that allows itself to be used by the villains we've been discussing. (Look up your favorite digital camera, and see what dealers show up near the top of the list with clusters of rave reviews.)
Once you know, you Newegg. If you must use online places other than Newegg, I agree entirely with earlier posters who mentioned resellerratings. Oh and BTW never trust the ratings on Pricewatch, they are always stacked, even Target PC Inc is rated well there, and they are so far from reliable that they almost made me stop shopping online.