Cameras Online? How The Shysters Work

earlylate writes "How do certain photo and electronics dealers thrive despite widely-circulated warnings by unhappy customers? According to a new investigative website "many apparently separate and competing dealers are actually jointly owned and run" and "go to great lengths to conceal their locations and management." Further, some comparison-shopping sites "are in effect marketing partners with their affiliates," the very dealers they rate. There's a contest based on the suspicious "flood of similar, glowing reviews some dealers receive," as well as links to several sources of information and advice for the careful online shopper."

Comments

Lots of scams out there...

[FyRE666]

A lot of people don't realise the the big "price deal search engines" such as Kelkoo and Dealtime also return results based on the amount the retailers they link to have paid for a higher position. You'll often find you can dig up better deals just using Google. However, I know that at least one of the biggest UK online electronics retailers derives the highest percentage of paying click-throughs from Dealtime (that is, people referred by Dealtime, who then go on to actually buy a product). The Dealtime referrals actually result in more sales than people browsing their site to find stuff. So the idea/scam works well...

It's all the mob!

[ahsile]

Don't mess with them... I tried once, it wasn't pretty. I still have to move every couple months so they don't find my location...

This post alone will give me away, I need to move again... but I needed to warn you all!

Happens in real life, too.

[darkmeridian]

Once bought a VCR some years ago. I went into one store and asked for a specific model of a VCR. I was quoted a price, then I went to another store. The clerk for the second store, after receiving my request, spoke into a walkie-talkie in his native language and then quoted me the same price. Now, perhaps it was coincidental, but both clerks appeared to be Indian. I didn't buy the VCR from either store.

Re:Happens in real life, too.

[tgibbs]

Mod me down if you must, but the inference that two 'foreigners' at different stores were in cahoots against the shopper - only evidenced by one's use of a walkie-talkie and a language the shopper didn't understand - smacks of racism. I could be wrong, but that's certainly what it seems like based on what was posted.

Paranoid, possibly, but not necessarily racist. The question is whether he would have jumped to the same conclusion that he was not dealing with two independent retailers if the clerk at the first store was the same race as himself, and the clerk at the second store was as well, but bore what might have been a family resemblance to the first clerk, and spoke quietly into the walkie-talkie so that he couldn't hear. I suspect that he would have reacted exactly the same way. Not everything has to be about race.

Who You Buy From

[mysqlrocks]

I'd rather pay a little more and know that I'm buying from someone I can trust. So what if I can save a few bucks if I'm not sure I'm going to get exactly what I paid for? Sure I look for deals but it's a matter of balancing that against buying from someone reputable.

Re:Who You Buy From

[BushCheney08]

Sure I look for deals but it's a matter of balancing that against buying from someone reputable.

That's why I only shop at Best Buy.

<trying hard not to burst out laughing>

Fear

[GweeDo]

They made it so I couldn't order online anymore! Don't make them mad!!!

Vigilante justice

[0110011001110101]

Someone should go around and take pictures of all the proprietors and store-fronts of these scammy camera salesman and post them on a website somewhere so the rest of us can be informed....

If you'd like to volunteer, let me know, I have a great camera I can give you for a low-low price, that would be perfect for the job.

Re:Vigilante justice

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean something like this?

Nooooo, say it ain't so

[DrSkwid]

You mean to say that I shouldn't spend $100s based on the opinions of anonymous and untrusted (to me) sources.

I tell you, I'm shocked.

You'll be telling me next that the editorial in trade newspapers is somehow related to the advertising.

Such scams work...

[cytoman]

only because of the fact that there is a sucker born every minute.

I don't think that the number of scams has really increased or anything...the information deluge from the internet makes it seem like there are more scammers now than before. The fact appears to be that in place of one sucker being swindled, now you have 10 suckers being swindled simultaneously.

A fool and his money...yada yada yada.

Some interesting pictures of the storefronts

[line-bundle]

Here are some interesting pictures of the storefronts

Front doors

Re:Some interesting pictures of the storefronts

[DrStrange66]

Here are some interesting pictures of the storefronts

I bought a tv from store 114 (DrPlasma, aka eStore of NY) They have multiple aliases. Biggest mistake of my life. They sent me a very expensive plasma tv by mistake and tried to strong arm me into paying for it. They also made an illegal charge to my credit card. Good thing my credit card was pretty full because it limited what they were able to steal when they maxed it out. I dealt with them for nearly 2 months until they finally gave up when they realized I wasn't going to just roll over on this one. Had I researched them out before I would never have bought anything from them. They have conflicting reviews though. Some say A++++++ some say scam artists. I wonder if they write their own reviews.

The unfortunate side effect is

[Saint37]

The unfortunate side effect is that shoppers will be less likely to go to mom and pop online retailers and will stick to the conglomerates. This makes is clear that it is in the best interest of honest online retailers and all those who sell services to them that they need to make a concerted effort to combat online fraud.

http://stockmarketgarden.com/

What are you,

[2names]

the British Mob?

Henchman, "I say, that scoundrel has surfaced in the United States. Shall we whack him?"

Don Worcestershire, "Quite."

Wow...

[Schezar]

I heard the voicemail one of these scumbags left for someone not too long ago. I don't know about others, but I would have had the police online to file charges... These people are scary.

Luckily, they're not the most intelligent people, as the voicemail seems to show. Calling someone a "bitch" repeatedly and threatening to kill them via an easily traced means is just asking for legal trouble. They don't know how to deal with the actual bad publicity they're starting to get. (Ratings sites are not actual bad publicity, since hardly anyone uses them, and there are many different ones).

I have a feeling this sort of scam will disappear in due time. It's getting harder and harder to hide from geeks with net connections and blogs, and bad word of mouth, unlike bad "reviews," is killer for a business. Just think of how many techies you know who refuse to buy a particular brand of hard drive simply for hearing about a friend's bad experience once.

Oh, the rest is a total shameless plug, but we did a bit about this on GeekNights last Thursday.

Re:Wow...

[Tom]

I have a feeling this sort of scam will disappear in due time.

You're new to this life, aren't you? The birth rate in the sucker demographics category is way too high for these scams to disappear anywhere within the forseable future.

Re:Lots of scams out there...yes but...

[AnyLoveIsGoodLove]

Use common sense. here's what I tell everyone that asks.

1) only buy from reputable sites. this has been going on since computer shopper days. its even more true today.

2) I only use my American Express (AMEX). I can't tell you how many times AMEX has helped with fraudulent charges, merchants that don't deliver etc. AMEX is expensive and a pain in the ass for mechants to sign up. If they are not willing to do that, than I won't buy. I will pay a slight premium for sights that take AMEX. It's worth it.

If I'd done both these when I first got online in the 90s I would have saved myself a lot of grief.

Just use Amazon or NewEgg

[pla]

Digital cameras currently have a very competitive market. Every site has the same models for within a few bucks of each other, pretty close to at-cost, and make it up on supplies (batteries, chargers, SD/XD/sticks/whatever storage medium, docks, printers, straps, cases, and of course the holy grail of ripoffs, the "extended warranty").

When you see a site advertising a given model for $100 to $250 less than everyone else, well, do you really think they plan to take a loss on the camera itself? And even if they did take a small loss (such as at-cost with free shipping), they sure as hell won't sell for less than they can ever dream of making back even if you bought every overpriced accessory they offer.


Just save yourself the trouble and use a reputable dealer like Amazon or NewEgg for any electronics. They usually have close to the lowest price, and factoring in the BS as part of the cost, they almost always win without even a second thought.

Free market solution?

[dada21]

Being pro-market, I see the scammers as the worst aspect of any market. In the past, it can be argued that regulations and restrictions through government was needed -- scammers were able to swindle thousands to millions of dollars before people were able to get the word out and warn each other.

As the percentage of technically-savvy individuals grows, information about a dealer or retailer can be distributed in seconds. Thousands of individuals can moderate (or rate) a seller, and sellers can moderate (or rate) buyers instantly. eBay handles these transactions with very little government involvement or force.

Scammers (such as the photo retailers) have been suckering people for DECADES. This is WITH government "protection" that many citizens believe they can rely on, yet we still see thousands of people getting swindled.

As the old generation moves out of the buying phase and the new generation becomes the big power in buying, we will see less swindling and scamming. It is already very hard to scam someone in my age range (low 30s) as most of us check online before buying a large item. Google is adapting much of their search ability to cellphones (WAP, SMS and other means). I already check items out through my wireless PDA phone when I am on the go. I've saved myself a few hundred dollars by not purchasing items with bad reviews. I found these reviews through my phone in mere moments.

The old ways of the retail industry are dying. As a retailer myself (who lost one of our stores because of a scamming employee and manager base), I know that the customer has more power than I do. When all you had was a local shop to buy from, you weren't able to negotiate for better quality, service or pricing. With next day service from thousands of online shops, the retailers are put on notice that they better offer more than just a product, or they'll go out of business.

These photo scams will end without much government involvement. If they broke a contract or agreement, I can understand calling a lawyer. Hopefully in the short run enough people will comment about their bad experiences that the companies will be punished before more people are scammed -- and I see the strength of scammers quickly weakening as information is globally available, instantly.

Re:Free market solution?

[dada21]

One of the assumptions is that all participants have complete, truthful information. Obviously, that would be the end of any and all scammers.

That is NEVER an assumption -- in fact I believe the counter-fact to be true. In a free market, every transaction is based on the assumption that both parties feel they are profiting from the transaction. This case is based on the risk versus reward idea. The bigger the reward is, the bigger one assumes the risk is. If Camera W123 sells locally for $499, at Amazon for $449, and John's Photo Shop sells it for $379, you're gaining a huge reward. If you jump on that price, you're accepting a risk. It is personal greed that leads people to buy from deep discounters, and they have to acknowledge that there is always a risk in making a purchase. The reason many people buy locally for more money is to lower their risk.

The problem is, of course, that our governments, pretty much no matter which one you choose, are not exactly breeding pools or good examples of honesty and integrity

This is true -- government tends to be run by scammers and shysters, in my experience.

What you're advocating is putting government in charge of markets -- the same government that is never transparent, hides information "legally" and has zero oversight except for a vote once every 4 years or so. I advocate dumping the government provisions and letting the new Internet information sharing structure take over. Now, we have instant voting based on consumer demand. If a lot of consumers get duped by a company, we'll soon have the ability to broadcast that information over many different sources.

I'd like to see an SMS server where you can message a number "JohnPhotoShop.com" and have it return "50 positives, 300 negatives, 15 neutrals" I believe this will happen, very soon, as Google and many other companies are trying to gain brand share by providing free SMS services. I use FBOWEB.COM to track all my flights and used the free PDA version of the site for a few months. Now I purchased a subscription as the site is really worth the information I've received -- and it is always more accurate than what the airlines provide.

I don't think government has protected us from scammers, ever. If anything, the platforms made by government are only used by scammers to find new loopholes (as is seen in the New York Photo scam that has been going on for 20 years). Now that information is available to EVERYONE, there is no excuse to getting scammed. Even some posts on slashdot today show that people didn't research the too-good-to-be-true pricing, and got scammed. Greed: you get what you deserve.

Credit card overcharge protection

[efedora]

I've been using Citibank/ATT Universal Card for online purchase. You can download an application that will let you generate a unique card number for each purchase. You can also limit the amount and set the expiration date.
After the purchase you can modify the amount or date and even cancel the number.
It won't stop you from making a dumb purchase but it will prevent excessive charges and unauthorized addtional charges to your credit card.

Re:Always buy local

[fishbowl]

When I was shopping for my EOS 20D, I purposely visited a couple of local camera stores before ordering from B&H. I was shocked by the performance of the local stores! One basically refused to show me a 20D, and tried to insist that I'd be happier with a Rebel XT. The people in the other store were quite insulting, and also tried to discourage me from getting a 20D, purely on the basis of my not being a professional photographer -- there was enough of the little sneer in the guy's voice, worthy of a cartoon character. I tried to stick around for a while, but even though there were no other customers, I had an extremely hard time getting anyone to talk to me. These weren't high-school kids in a storefront, mind you.

So I decided I was on a wild goose chase, ordered my camera and other gear from B&H and never looked back. I had about $3000 to spend on camera gear, and all I needed from the local store was basic respect. Anyway, B&H filled my order faster than either of the local stores would have done. And I'm quite happy with the camera, no regrets at all. And I haven't been to any locally owned camera stores since (!!)

Re:The lesson? Don't buy in New York City, period.

[Red Flayer]

I, and my company, buy plenty from B&H and Adorama. Also had good experiences with K&M.

It's like any other major purchase... do your homework. Look for stores with established brick & mortar business and reputation. Don't be lured by too-good-to-be-true deals (they really are). Ask around with people who are in the know (there are plenty of photography enthusiast websites out there).

Yes, there are a lot of shady people running shady ops in shady neighborhoods in the NY area. But that doesn't mean there aren't reputable shops as well.

Caveat emptor.

Mail Order, then Online...

[BenEnglishAtHome]

...the same rules apply now that applied 35 years ago when I started buying photo equipment. Most are places that will screw you one way or another. Some are downright crooks. And there are a few gems that stay in business year after year, garnering more and more loyal customers even though their prices aren't rock bottom.

Personally, I use BHPhotoVideo.com for darn near everything photographic. Some things, like flash brackets, are personal taste problems. You just gotta touch and feel before buying. But for everything else, B&H is either the best or so close I can't tell the difference. They're businesslike (even brusque, sometimes) on the phone but they're also professional and reliable. The number of similarly high-quality online dealers in this market segment can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Actually, you only need two - B&H and Adorama. There are a few specialty dealers who are good for other things and if you need what they sell, they're wonderful. But for the full line of general photo gear available online, it's B&H and Adorama.

The best guidance I know of for buying a camera or related equipment in the U.S. is at photo.net.

No, it just means unscrupuolus lawyer. Or shitter

[karlandtanya]

Probably alteration of German Scheisser, son of a bitch, bastard, from scheissen, to defecate, from Middle High German schzen, from Old High German skzzan.

unscrupulous lawyer 1843, U.S. slang, probably altered from Ger. Scheisser "incompetent worthless person," from Scheisse "shit," from O.H.G. skizzan "to defecate" (see shit).

shyster--'shIs-t Etymology: probably from German Scheisser, literally, defecator
: one who is professionally unscrupulous especially in the practice of law or politics : PETTIFOGGER

You're not helping anyone. You make people with a legitimate beef look petty and you present people with no bad intentions at all as anti-semitic (or specifically anti-Jewish, as there are a lot more semitic people than just Jews).
Now, go into a closet and say "niggardly" a hundred times.

Re:Finding good reviews

[cetan]

resellerratings.com is generally quite good and the results can be trusted. Of course, one should browse to be certain a particular store wasn't recently flooded with fake positive reviews.

Not always

[Sycraft-fu]

There is one at least that is a reputable dealer, B&H Photo. They are a massive store and sell still and video cameras from consumer up to extremely high end pro. They do audio gear, consumer and pro too. Of course because their are reputable their prices are good, but nothing special. However they are worth checking. I got my Yamaha reciever from them. Yamaha requires their recievers be purchased from a license dealer to honour warantee. All the local ones wanted full MSRP, however Yamaha lists B&H as a licensed dealer. Checked with them and it was much cheaper, even with $50 shipping.

So there ARE reputable dealers in New York, you just need to be careful. One thing to check is to see if they are authorized dealers. You can't fake something like that (Yamaha does the listing on their own site) and that's not something that a scammy, fly-by-night is going to do since the company wouldn't license them anyhow. If they are an authorized dealer for the companies that do that kind of thing, they are probably on the up and up.

Just buy from B&H Photo or Adorama

[Anonymous Coward]

I just buy from B&H Photo or Adorama. They've been around for years and their prices are as low as you'll usually find. I've never had any problems ordering or returning merchandise and they don't pressure you.

http://www.bhphoto.com/
http://www.adorama.com/

The markups on electronics are very slim. If someone is selling you an electronic product for hundreds below everyone else you're being ripped off.

Re:"Shyster"?

[theonetruekeebler]

You're thinking of "Shylock", which is indeed a slur against Jews. "Shyster" gets confused with shylock, but its etymology is fairly well understood to be from the German "Scheisser", lit. "shitter" but more figuratively "bullshitter" or "son-of-a-bitch."

In all likelihood it got dragged into the U.S. via Yiddish, hence the Semitic connection. Calling a Jewish lawyer a shyster is probably rather tasteless.

Re:As they say......

[friedmud]

This is _exactly_ my mentality lately.

Those are the only two stores I have ordered off of in the past year... and I've ordered thousands of dollars worth of things for my house (just got married)...

Trying to get the extra $5 off of something by using some shady site just isn't worth it anymore. Newegg and Amazon are always within 1% of the bottom of the barrel sites and I don't even have to think twice about ordering from them (actually... my credit card is just saved at both.... so I can order at will).

A little piece of mind is worth a lot!

Friedmud

Re:Finding good reviews

[bani]

They are written by consumers, who have no idea what the hell they're dealing with.

You have a beef with CR, fine. That's no reason to go making shit up.

CR has experts do the testing, which is plainly and comprehensively explained along with their testing methodology.