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Robot Saves the Day at Radiation Lab

An anonymous reader writes "Nature.com is reporting that records released this week by the US defense department read almost like a bad movie plot. Back in October a high-security radiation lab had a cylinder filled with radiation get trapped in its delivery tube network. Fortunately a specially designed bomb-disposal robot was able to retrieve the canister before the radiation was able to eat its way free.

18 of 235 comments (clear)

  1. Radiation - Seems to be a recurring problem. by Ruff_ilb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    First the "Robot Saves Troops" story and now this. Pretty cool how robots are actually helping us nowadays.

    "By now, the robot had been in the radiation zone for 90 minutes. The team decided to regroup, but the robot's electronics had failed and it was rooted to the spot. Thankfully, the team had tied a rope around the machine, and it was hauled in, almost knocking over a radiation shield in the process."

    This part sounds remarkably familiar...

    "On the third day, and after three weeks of continuous warning sirens..."

    Whoah. It took them THREE DAYS? I'm glad this wasn't (obviously) a really serious problem. If it were some sort of radiation based bomb, they'd get fried.

    From reading these two articles, it seems that if we could somehow shield these robots from outside radiation, these jobs would be done in a flash.

    Unfortunately, we need them to recieve radation because if they DON'T, we can't communicate with them.

    Now, I'm not a physicist, but might a Faraday Cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage) built with an appropriately sized mesh do the job? Just as a microwave lets some radiation out (we can see the burrito cooking inside) while keeping the harmful radiation in (we don't get toasted by the microwaves), couldn't this be used to do the reverse, that is, allow communication in while shielding the robot from radiation?

    I realize that these cages must be in a specific shape to work correctly, but if the core components at least, can be shielded, this go a long way towards solving our problems.

    Heck, the arms and stuff we can even make (god forbid) mechanical, perhaps in such a way that they won't get owned by the radiation at all.

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    1. Re:Radiation - Seems to be a recurring problem. by ajwitte · · Score: 5, Informative
      Now, I'm not a physicist, but might a Faraday Cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage) built with an appropriately sized mesh do the job? Just as a microwave lets some radiation out (we can see the burrito cooking inside) while keeping the harmful radiation in (we don't get toasted by the microwaves), couldn't this be used to do the reverse, that is, allow communication in while shielding the robot from radiation?
      A Faraday cage would only be effective against EM waves, not against particle emissions.
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    2. Re:Radiation - Seems to be a recurring problem. by cbreaker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, you solved it. Good job. Too bad these folks that play with this ultra-radioactive cobalt (the kind that kills you in 30 seconds or less) every day didn't think of that.

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    3. Re:Radiation - Seems to be a recurring problem. by CharlesEGrant · · Score: 4, Informative
      Now, I'm not a physicist, but might a Faraday Cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage) built with an appropriately sized mesh do the job? Just as a microwave lets some radiation out (we can see the burrito cooking inside) while keeping the harmful radiation in (we don't get toasted by the microwaves), couldn't this be used to do the reverse, that is, allow communication in while shielding the robot from radiation?

      I realize that these cages must be in a specific shape to work correctly, but if the core components at least, can be shielded, this go a long way towards solving our problems.

      It isn't the shape of the Faraday cages that's special. It's the size of the mesh. The mesh has to be significantly smaller then the wavelength of the radiation you are trying to keep out. Microwaves have a wavelength of 1-300mm. The wave-length of gamma rays is less then 0.00000000001mm. That's much smaller then the distance between atoms in a typical solid, so the idea of a mesh becomes kind of absurd.

      I doubt that the problem with shielding is communications. After all you could put the shielding on the side facing the radiation, and leave the side towards the crew open. Gamma radiation doesn't go around corners. Or, as others have suggested, you could just run a cable to the robot. I think the actual problem is weight. Lead is heavy. You might be able to pile a ton of lead around the cpus and memroy, and just crank up the horsepower of the motors. However, by their very purpose you can't put the sensors behind lead sheilds, since all they would see then would be the lead shield. Not very helpful.
    4. Re:Radiation - Seems to be a recurring problem. by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually Cobalt 60 is a Gamma emitter. Gamma is EM but very high frequency. The majority of the radiation from it is not particle radiation unless you count photons are particle radiation.
      The holes in the shielding on a microwave have to be smaller than the wavelength of the microwaves. Gamma has a wavelength smaller than visible light so the holes would have to be too small for even light to pass through. It is also a lot more energetic so the thin metal shielding used in a microwave wouldn't be of much use. So a faraday cage "could" work if it was thick enough and had small enough crystal structure the be effective the only problem is I don't know of any material that meets those requirements off the top of my head. A high density shield of say, lead would be far simpler.

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    5. Re:Radiation - Seems to be a recurring problem. by Forbman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Gamma radiation is very high energy (and short wavelength) EM radiation. Neutrons are...neutrons. Alpha particles are Helium nuclei, and Beta radiation is positron radiation. That's about it for the types of radioactive decay radiation [sic].

      A sheet of paper is sufficient to block alpha particles. A thin sheet of wood will effectively block beta radiation. Lead works well for neutrons, and a LOT of lead is required for gamma radiation.

      Read back on the experiments with that B-36 that had a nuclear reactor on it. The crew area at the front was protected from the otherwise unshielded reactor core by something like 20 *tons* of lead...

  2. Interesting..... what application? by BWJones · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the base's Gamma Irradiation Facility was paralysed when a cylinder containing cobalt-60 became lodged in one of the lab's air-pressure tubes,

    Yikes! Cobalt-60 is almost as bad as it gets. Cobalt 60 radiation dosages are almost twice as bad as the actual dosage of radiation one would get from the fallout of an actual atomic device which sort of begs the question of what they are doing with it? Are they modeling fallout? Or are they experimenting with dirty bombs? Lining the inside of atomic devices with heavy metals and other elements is a way to create much more radioactive bombs that have long lasting radiation effects.

    Although there *are* civilian applications such as medical therapy devices....

    The canister, about the size of a salt cellar, was jammed against a seesaw-shaped switch inside the tube that was stuck in the wrong orientation.

    OK, so this sounds like bad design just waiting for someone to screw up and reveal the design flaw.

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    1. Re:Interesting..... what application? by Malor · · Score: 4, Informative

      The article that I read several days ago said that they use the cobalt-60 to test radiation resistance... they want to see the effects that high radiation levels will have on various pieces of military and civilian hardware. They set up their test gear, shuttle in the cobalt via pneumatic tube, let the gear cook in the extremely intense radiation, and then shuttle the cobalt back into a 'safe' area. I believe the original article claimed that cobalt is good for this, because it doesn't make the whole area permanently radioactive, though I'm not familiar with the reason why. (gamma radiation, maybe???)

      The writeup on the article is misleading. Radiation doesn't 'eat its way free'... fer chrissake, people! Acids eat things. Radiation just ... radiates. And it was ALREADY free, that's why the needed the darn robot. That whole testing area was absolutely lethal to human beings, even in heavy protective gear. Even the robot couldn't survive it very long... they thought 50 minutes. In actual practice, it lasted longer... but the movement system did fail, so they had to drag it out with a rope.

      To the person asking about building a Faraday cage around it.... as far as I know, a Faraday cage isn't an absolute barrier, it's just a very strong one. It attenuates a signal by a very great deal, making signals interception very difficult. But in this case, the 'signal' (the cobalt) is so incredibly powerful that a Faraday cage would just take the edge off, as it were. If my limited understanding of radiation is correct, it'd be just about as effective as sunglasses in front of a supernova. (and I'm not sure that Faraday cages even *work* at these frequencies... the radiation might just punch right through the shield material.)

  3. Filled with Radiation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I didn't know 'radiation' was tangable. I'll have to update the Wikipedia article...

  4. A little time discrepancy... by FearTheFrail · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "On the third day, and after three weeks of continuous warning sirens..."

    Whoah. It took them THREE DAYS? I'm glad this wasn't (obviously) a really serious problem. If it were some sort of radiation based bomb, they'd get fried.


    Questions are begged:

    1. Was it the robot that had been used for three days?
    2. Or was that just how long the cobalt had been in there?
    3. ...either way, what in the hell is triggering warning sirens for three weeks straight in a big-time radiation lab?
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    1. Re:A little time discrepancy... by fossa · · Score: 4, Informative

      The cobalt was stuck for three weeks. The warning sirens are a government regulation, something to do with informing workers of radiation source. The robot was brought in, but it took a while for the team (from Albuquerque) to get ready to go to White Sands with their robot.

      This slashdot article is dupe. See sandia.gov for more poorly written details.

      No, they wouldn't be fired; they work at a national lab :-P Seriously though, electronics that can handle intense radiation are expensive.

  5. Still, it all comes down to the ol'screwdriver by digitaldc · · Score: 4, Funny

    On the third day, and after three weeks of continuous warning sirens, the team sent in the robot with a metal screwdriver. It unscrewed the plate, dislodged the switch, and sent the tube safely to its storage bay.

    Dude you mean the government spent $24 million on this project and all we needed to fix it was a screwdriver?

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  6. Not to be picky by lifebouy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But "radiation" can't be stored in a container. Radioactive material, however, can be. Add to that the fact that the submitter was anonymous, and this story should not have been picked up. Hmm. I wonder whats on digg right now.

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    1. Re:Not to be picky by Dun+Malg · · Score: 4, Insightful
      But "radiation" can't be stored in a container. Radioactive material, however, can be. Add to that the fact that the submitter was anonymous, and this story should not have been picked up. Hmm. I wonder whats on digg right now.

      Damn straight. It's ignoramuses like the anonymous submitter who keep irradiated food off the market when there's no rational reason for it. I could be dining off vacu-packed and irradiated steaks all week on a backcountry hiking trip, but because a bunch of dumbshits don't know the difference between "radiation" and "radioactive" I'm stuck with MREs and freeze dried crap.

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  7. Please..... by fractalrock · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...tell me the poster is joking around with the 'filled with radiation' and 'before the radiation was able to eat its way free' comments.

    I was filled with radiation once.....once.

  8. Inspired by Actual Events by pete-classic · · Score: 5, Funny

    The blockbuster event of Summer 2006: Robot Hero

    Starring Ben Affleck as the fucking robot.

  9. In Soviet Russia robot sends YOU in. by AHuxley · · Score: 5, Informative

    Mayak, where the Soviet Union pumped out tens of tons of plutonium for nuclear weapons. Some info on how the Soviets fixed the 'it got stuck' problems - no fancy robots for them. http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=so9 9larin "A complete repair would have taken at least 12 months..." ""That meant that the irradiated uranium fuel had to be pulled up by hand into the central hall of the reactor and placed in a special storage area. Then, when the repair was finished, the elements had to be loaded back into the reactor. Over time, we unloaded and reloaded 39,000 fuel elements. All of the plant's personnel took part in this work and they received huge doses of radiation. The repairs were finished in two months." "several hundred kilograms of freshly irradiated nuclear fuel got stuck--men from everywhere in the plant were called out, and one after another they used long steel rods to push the elements into the apparatus. The only protection they had was cotton overalls and gloves."

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  10. damn that corrosive radiation by drakewyrm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "...before the radiation was able to eat its way free." That's choice. Sounds like the tagline from some poorly-researched sci-fi or action flick. Besides, the radiation was already present outside the canister; otherwise, there would have been no danger to personnel and no radiation alarms sounding.

    As for the comment about the container being filled with radiation, I could excuse that as simply a mistake of terminology. You can fill the container with active or contaminated material, but you can't fill it with radiation itself. Contamination is the shit. Radiation is just the stink.

    A more practical analogy would be light as an example of radiation. You can fill a box with flashlights, and you can shine light inside a box, but you can't fill the box with light.

    The article makes reference to the radiation eating away at the robot's circuits. This is pure speculation, but I think this may have been a reference to the effect that high energy gamma radiation can have on digital circuits such as memory. That would be a bit of a metaphor, not a literal corrosion of the circuitry. Certainly, it does not imply that the canister was in danger of impending failure.

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