ZNet interviews Richard Stallman

ProgressiveCynic writes "ZNet has just published an interview with Richard Stallman. Much of the interview will be review for Slashdot folks, intended to introduce ZNet's audience to the free software movement, but many interesting bits remain including a discussion on the outlawing of free software, patents as applied to literature, and this quote: 'I'm a Liberal, in US terms (not Canadian terms). I'm against fascism.'"

Comments

Can you tell he's a programmer?

[John Nowak]

RMS: The basic idea of the Free Software Movement is that the user of software deserves certain freedoms. There are four essential freedoms, which we label freedoms 0 through 3.

I wonder how many Znet readers are confused out of their minds as to why he'd start with zero.

Re:Can you tell he's a programmer?

[CloakedMirror]

I'm not sure how serious you are trying to be here, but the reason for starting with 0 (zero) in our arrays has nothing to do with the number of combinations of single digits. When we supply an array element designator what we are really doing is supplying the offset from the starting point of the array; hence the first item in the array is at offset zero, the second item is at offset one, etc. It has nothing to do with the "count" of items in the array, except that the last element will always be designated as one less than the size of the array.

Disclaimer: Some of these concepts may not be true in the programming language you use. If that is the case then it is because the authors of the language have hidden that detail from you.

Re:Can you tell he's a programmer?

[MPHellwig]

Your existents dictates otherwise ;-)

Re:Can you tell he's a programmer?

[elrous0]

I wonder how many Znet readers are confused out of their minds as to why he'd start with zero.

I'm sorry, but as a loyal, God-fearing American I refuse to use any number invented by them A-Rabs.

-Eric

Pay the Toll

[rodgster]

RMS > You could not run free applications on such a system (sic, trusted computing). If you did figure out how, and told someone, that could be a crime.

In other words. You Must Pay the Microsoft Tax.

Wow, RMS was rather lucid in this interview. I'm impressed.

Re:Pay the Toll

[John Nowak]

He didn't say to avoid ALL closed hardware -- Just nVidia specifically, because it is such a crucial component which can be very difficult to support.

Re:Pay the Toll

[FireFury03]

If Linux is made by hardware vendors to rely on binary drivers, where exactly does that leave its stability advantage?

I think I need to clarify my point: binary drivers are a Bad Thing (it's debatable whether they're better/worse than _no_ drivers, but I'll leave that discussion for now). My point was that if you're boycotting a manufacturer because you disagree with their business practices then why should it just be that one manufacturer - surely you have the same problem with other manufacturers employing the same business practices?

And if you are going to boycott a single manufacturer it might make more sense to do it in an area of the market where there's more choice between closed drivers and open drivers rather than aiming for a market where there aren't many open devices to use _instead_ of the device you're boycotting.

Another problem is manufacturers removing perfectly good well-supported devices from the market (whether they are supported through openness or reverse engineering) and replacing them with closed devices for cost reasons - it seems very difficult to put pressure on the manufacturers to keep making the old devices. A good example of this is Intersil stopping manufacture of the well supported Prism GT 802.11g chipset and replacing it with the Prism Javalin (softmac) chipset which isn't supported at all. Reverse engineering hardware is a lot of work and it's wasted if the hardware you reverse engineered is obsolete by the time you've got a working driver. (It should be noted that the hardware I'm talking about isn't obsolete because it lacked functionality, it's obsolete because the manufacturer invented something marginally cheaper).

Liberals

[maggard]

For those puzzled, RMS's Liberal comment is in reference to Canada's Liberal party.

Re:Liberals

[Bazzalisk]

To be honest in the current political climate it would be hard to find someone in Europe who wouldn't be considered liberal in the USA - the current US polirtics make Genghis Khan's wealth redistribution policies look positively progressive - and Mussolini would be considered practicaly a commie!

Re:I've actually met him.

[TubeSteak]

I think it's a fairly obvious troll
The first result is from encyclopediadramatica.com
http://www.google.com/search?q=RMS+has+a+phobia+of +water

Good Article but...

[Gr1mm-R34p3r]

In an otherwise informative article, I learned that Mr Stallman is yet another person doesnt know what the hell fascism is (nor do most people who throw around the term "Bush Regime"). :rolleyes:

I quote RMS

"Fascism is a system of government that sucks up to business and has no respect for human rights. So the Bush regime is an example, but there are lots of others. In fact, it seems we are moving towards more fascism globally."

If you're going to throw the F word around at least learn what it means. Fascism has little to nothing to do with business, instead it is about the state or more specifically the ruler. It is a pragmatic form of government when it comes to business. If anything, it functions under a permanent war economy with the major industries cooperating. In other words, it is a centralized economy that still retains private property and freedom of commerce.

The US and other countries today are not fascist nor resemble anything like a fascist nation. Does big business run the country? Yes. Do politicians suck up to it? Yes. Is this a good thing? NO! But its NOT fascism. To call it such is at the least a bit ignorant.

Does anyone care? Probably not, but I have to try.

PS:

I'll have some ridiculous replies accusing me of being a Bush supporter (hardly).

Re:Good Article but...

[mqduck]

You're basically right, but saying that fascism is a hyper-repressive form of capitalism is a much better summary than alot of people know. And I would say that Bush truely is a fascist, but that of course doesn't make the nation so. The thing is, there's no clear dividing line between fascism and "regular" capitalism.

Re:Good Article but...

[a_n_d_e_r_s]

"Fascism is associated with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, and, after attaining political control of a country, a powerful, dictatorial state that views the nation as superior to the individuals or groups composing it."

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

""A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
-- American Heritage Dictionary

Even though there are no clear definition of Fascism there is definititly clear that corporatism - the merging of big business and the state - are part of Fascism.

US today are leaning more and more towards fascism. Not many likes it - but its the sad truth.

Re:Good Article but...

[ozmanjusri]

Fascism has little to nothing to do with business

Fascism and corporatism are closely linked.

Fascism is associated with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, and, after attaining political control of a country, a powerful, dictatorial state that views the nation as superior to the individuals or groups composing it.

So cut out all that drama queen eye rolling, and quit supporting Bush. He's a fascist.

Re:Good Article but...

[Fred_A]

Umberto Ecco's list is a good starting point as well.

Fits well with a disturbing number of current western regimes...

Re:Good Article but...

[tetromino]

Nah, the US is not fascist.

First, because it is still a democracy (although Diebold is doing its best to undermine that). And second, because there is no systematic merger of business and government -- rather, certain businesses (RIAA, MPAA, oil, defense, etc) are one of the several special interest groups that the government pays too much attention to. Trial lawyers are another such group. So are fundamentalist Christians. So are mothers who want you to "think of the children". So are the gun-loving folks. So are the anti- and pro-abortion activists. So are the farmers. None of them has a monopoly on government attention - yet.

What you see with Halliburton and Enron is good old-fashioned cronyism and corruption. It's nowhere near the type of horror that most countries in Latin America, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East went through sometime in the past 50 years.

Re:Good Article but...

[node 3]

The US and other countries today are not fascist nor resemble anything like a fascist nation. Does big business run the country? Yes. Do politicians suck up to it? Yes. Is this a good thing? NO! But its NOT fascism. To call it such is at the least a bit ignorant.

Absolutely false. What you've described is, in fact, the definition of Fascism.

"Fascism should more properly be called Corporatism, because it is the merger of state and corporate power."
-- Benito Mussolini

Although the term "Fascism" is commonly met with revulsion, the ideals of Fascism are alive and well. In fact, there are people who openly support Fascism, whether they accept the title of Fascist or not.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
-- Sinclair Lewis (1935)

Vice President Henry A. Wallace warned quite often of the dangers of Fascism in America.

"With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power."
-- US Vice President Henry A. Wallace

He also defined it in the classical, Mussolini sense:

"If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. Most American fascists are enthusiastically supporting the war effort."

-- US Vice President Henry A. Wallace, "The Danger of American Fascism," New York Times, 1944.

Re:Good Article but...

[sstidman]

What's with the constant ad hominem attacks on Slashdot? If you disagree, then fine, please give some supporting facts and debate the issue. We might all be able to learn something from you. But just ridiculing someone ... how is that an "insightful" argument? What has happened to the Slashdot moderation system?

Re:Good Article but...

[EvilNight]

I'm in agreement, but I'd like to point out something I think is rather important.

Fascism as we have seen it in the past is not likely to recur. We're all familiar with it, and after WWII it isn't likely to be tolerated when it appears. What is likely to happen, however, is the emergence of a different (modern, if you like) form of fascism that is not immediately recognizable as such. I don't think this has happened yet, but it is certainly a possibility.

I do think that the current political and economic climate in the USA has become more closed and dogmatic lately, which is not a good sign. I don't suppose it's any worse than the kinds of things that were happening when Nixon was in office, so calling it fascist is probably premature. It does bear watching closely, however.

Check up on how Germany became fascist sometime. The chain of events that led them into fascism is not all that dissimilar from some of our own social and political movements. We're just lucky enough to have an environment that is less tolerant of them, for now at least. Most Germans certainly weren't fascists... they simply allowed it to happen. That's the mistake we can't afford to repeat.

Eternal vigilance, and all that...

Re:Good Article but...

[s20451]

The power in the word "fascist" is that it is strongly associated with the brutal national socialist regimes in Germany and Italy.

But what you're saying is that most people are fascists if the definition is suitably relaxed. Similarly, you might read a medical textbook and recognize that you are suffering from "symptoms" of various disorders. It is not impossible to meet some of the criteria of being a "fascist" and still support constitutional rights, which are they keys to democratic government.

Re:Good Article but...

[Anonymous Coward]

America in the 21st century is lucky enough to have 20th century Germany as an illustrative example. The current admistration carefully works the PR to avoid comparisons, plus the widespread parroting of inane cliches such as Gowdin's 'law' prevent people from closely examining uncomfortable parallels. Extra-legal camps for political enemies, domestic surveillance without legal process (and incredibly, the 'leader' insisting it as his right!), absolving major corporations of convicted crimes, foreign wars of aggression with little, no or constantly shifting justification, a media which clamours to repeat government-distributed talking points almost verbatim, you're a lot closer than you think. The difference is half a century's experience in effective marketing and PR.

Another podcast interview on prisonplanet too

[cheekyboy]

Go to prisonplanet.com, its podcasts for 15th Dec has a interview with him too.

Now yo'all stop voting for the 2 parties , vote independant, and no neo-cons any more.

Re:Another podcast interview on prisonplanet too

[OverflowingBitBucket]

Massively offtopic, but this issue really ticks me off.

Reality is that in most cases, a vote for an independent candidate is a wasted vote.

Oh cut it out. This line of thought is why the US is stuck electing Republicrats every election. The only wasted vote is one that isn't cast.

Sure, vote for someone outside of the major two parties and you won't "win" in the present loaded system. But you do throw your weight behind the numbers who have indicated that they aren't happy with Red and Blue but want someone else in. More importantly, you've thrown your weight behind a particular party or ideology, and as the numbers grow, more people can shake the "I must vote for one of the two main parties" mentality and vote for another viable party. Sure, it won't happen in one election, but if people vote for who they want rather than following the catchy "you're throwing your vote away" mentality, then the country as a whole will be much better off and it'll finally elect a capable representative leader.

The whole logic of saying that because you won't "win" in one election you should vote for the best of the worst two is not only counterintuitive but is entrenching the present political stranglehold. All I can say is stop it. Stop repeating the "third party is a wasted vote" lie because gullible people keep believing it, and you keep getting rubbish government as a result. Don't you think you deserve better than the best of the worst two? Aren't you all sick of electing one of two fratboys offered up each election?

Re:Another podcast interview on prisonplanet too

[stinerman]

You've hit on something very important.

I have no other choice

The major party candidates know you think that way. John Kerry and Al Gore both ran campaigns betting that you'd hold your nose and vote for them rather than vote for someone you actually agreed with and believed could make a difference.

I particularly enjoyed many anti-war activists who signed a petition saying that they were voting for Kerry, but expected him to change his position on the war after they had helped elect him, or risk losing their support in the 2008 election. Kerry didn't care that people were holding their nose for him because a vote is a vote, no matter why it was cast.

Scenario:

Let us assume node_3 is a traditional liberal, who often sides with the Democrats. I am a candidate for the Democratic party, who knows that he(she?) and many others will vote for me no matter what my positions are. No amount of lobbying by node_3 and others like him(her) will ever change my mind because I already have their vote. I will instead devote my energies to change my platform to suit those who may not vote for me (likely making me more conservative). That is, by saying outright that you will vote for me, because voting for an independent is "wasting my vote", you have lost your only hold on my issue positions.

This scenario has been the core strategy of the DLC, a centrist Democratic party group, since the late 80s. This can be modeled as a game of chicken with you declaring before the game even starts that you will swerve.

My point is that we're going to have to crash a few times before the Democrats get their shit together. Sooner or later, they'll start swerving.

Re:Interesting...

[John Nowak]

Free software has a much better chance of working than Communism (yes, I know, it has never been truly implemented, etc). Unlike a government for a country, not everyone has to be in on it. If you live in a "communist" nation, you fall under communist rule. However, free software and non-free software can mix. People can use one, or the other, or both. Provided that there is a critical mass of people in the free software community, and there is, we should be just fine.

Re:Non-English speaker have a question

[John Nowak]

This definition has some holes in it, but "liberal" in the US means left-leaning (more centralized government, welfare state, etc), whereas liberal in Canada and Europe and most other places means the same thing as "conservative" means in the US (or used to mean anyway), including smaller government, lower taxes, less government control, pro-business, etc. It is even confusing in the US, with the "Libertarian" party conforming to strict conservative ideas -- conservative in the classical-US sense, not the current big government, pro-war definition. I should also note that the "left" in the US is much more like the "center" or even "right" in many other countries.

Re:Free as in Freedom

[John Nowak]

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Re:Take a look at this

[SolitaryMan]

Take a look at this article, based on real-world fascism study. (The link to the original study can be found there).

I can sorta agree that what article outlines is not exactly what _I_ understand as fascism too, but it confirms, that it is a rather controversial term and RMS's usage of this term is reasonable enough.

Re:RMS

[Fred_A]

Either you don't work in the software industry or you work for Microsoft (or you're still in school) but you apparently don't have the slightest idea how the real world works.

When you get a work working on software, it statistically *never* is writing one of those things that ends up in a box in your local shop.
Writing software is fiddling with an application that's internal to the company you are currently working for or which ends up embedded in the entrails of some sort of device (or of a web site).

This you can absolutely do with free software and you can often liberate tools that you created while working on your main product.

As for working freelance, it's something else entirely. But most such customizing jobs are subcontracted to large service firms, not individuals.
Or you can specialize in working with small companies in which case you'll have the same problem every budding entrepreneur has, whether he sells software services or diapers: finding customers.

Welcome to the real world (you should have taken the other pill).

I love RMS.

[solios]

Seriously, man. ESPECIALLY in this day and age, it takes BALLS to be absolutely a hundred percent no holds barred no bullshit 100% DEDICATED to the exact letter of What You Belive Is True. It might be "socially awkward" or "a career impairment" but this is, I firmly believe, the one possible instance in which a Dungeons & Dragons Paladin grade Lawful-lawful Good-good Dedication To Cause is actually - in some capacity - having a positive impact on the lives of many.

That his intensity of focus could also make him an object of ridicule is a natural side effect of said dedication. i doubt I'd be able to talk to the guy about software or legal issues for more than a handful of syllables before the punching instinct kicked in, but where would modern software be if it weren't for GNU and the GPL?

GNU vs. Marx

[tetromino]

Free Software and Marx have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Marx was a social critic who (correctly) surmised that the workers of his day were unfairly exploited, but then used voodoo economics and bad Hegelism to go off on a wild apocalyptic-cult trajectory.

By contrast, Free Software is not a cult, and it is not a "scientific" view of history. It is simply a proposition that one of the inalienable rights of Homo sapiens -- along with the right to free speech, free press, and democratic elections -- is the right to freely use one's computer. (Granted, computer use is not in the usual list, but if Locke, Rousseau, and Jefferson had computers, I am sure they would have put Free Software in the rights of man.)

Marxism belongs to the general category of apocalyptic cults (like belief in rapture and the singularity).

Free Software belongs to the general category of campaigns for a specific rights (like womens' suffrage and the civil rights movement).

Re:Ivory towers and actually working

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously have no clue about what your talking about.

Millions of people depend and use GNU software everyday. Why do you think that RMS tries to tell you to say: "GNU/Linux" and not just "Linux".

This is because not only do you use GNU for their compiler the most common userland tools and programs in Linux are almost wholey GNU.

GNU Bash, GNU tar, Gnome, CVS, GTK, Gimp, Glibc There are literally hundreds of GNU programs used around Linux distros.

Hell if you don't like Gnome GNU has a entire other desktop system to choose from.. Window Maker + GNUStep.

Try to remove all GNU software from your Linux system and see how far you get.
http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/

People go: Oh, why don't you just call it Apache/GNU/Linux since you have lots of apache-sponsored applications?

Well the thing is is that without Apache you'd still have a working OS. Apache isn't the only Free web server around...
Without GNU there would be no workable Linux distro.

If you use Linux for a living you depend on GNU and GNU Software to do it.

Even if you don't use Linux and use something like Solaris.. Solaris userland is crap. Best way to improve Solaris for day to day use as a workstation and server is to install a bunch of GNU software on it. And it's similar situation for the BSD's although it's not nearly as bad.

Hell even Apple uses GCC to build OS X.

To say GNU software as unsucccessfull.. your completely wrong.

In fact the GNU project is one of the most successfull software projects ever created. It's wildly successfull.

The goal was to create a Free software OS for using Free software for Freedom-liking individuals.

Just taking GCC.. It's one of the most ubiquious development tools ever created. Probably the most popular software compiling suite ever created. You can build C programs, fortran programs, Java programs, C++ programs, ada programs. It works on VAX, on x86 variants, on POWER/PPC varients, and pretty much every other hardware platform created in modern times.

Apple, IBM, Redhat, and many other companies put development time and money into it.

Think about it. They give it away for no-cost and for Free.

If that is not successfull then tell me what is?

So what if nobody uses the kernel, almost every other peice of software that was ever created or ever joined that project is used buy buches of people.

GNU/Linux is the 2nd most common OS anywere. It's used in everything from super computers to wrist watches to toasters.

Go back in time on Google groups and you can find usenet postings from when GNU was just starting and you'll find people saying stuff like: "that RMS is entertaining and has lovely ideas about software, but nobody is ever going to make a compiler like $LONG_FORGOTTEN_COMPILER and give it away for free!"
or
"Well GNU is funny stuff, but no way it will ever come close to $DEAD_OR_DYING_UNIX_VERSION in terms of capabilities, much less convince developers to work for free, what a wacko!"

Richard Stallman reminds me...

[OneSmartFellow]

of many of the 'intellectuals' which come out of MIT. Full of great ideas, and convction for them, but lacking some fundamental understanding of the 'real world'.

I know I'll be slammed for that, but it's hard to say it any more clearly

RMS - Who will replace him?

[tqft]

Many good, bad and trollish things have been said about RMS and he has done his share of stirring (which I think is good).

But who will replace him? Nobody lives forever (unless the medical boffins crack the longevity thing).

How would you recognise the person that you want to be the lead visionary of the FSF? An idealist? A pragmatist? A software engineer? Someone with a reputation as an uber coder?

Does DVD Jon fit the bill? Too young and too "controversial"? No political rep.

Linus? Probably doesn't care enough about politics.

Bruce Schneier? On too many watch lists?

There are probably at least a million people who would be good at the job and I have no clue (cue trolls) who they might be.

By vote on a /. or other internet poll?

Paid up members of the FSF will probably decide. If you don't care for the FSF ideals this may not be a problem, if you do care but aren't a member - sorry you don't count.

Sucks doesn't it.

Or will the political visionary thing die or "fork" when RMS isn't there to be the lightning rod to cop the abuse hurtling from all directions.

Personally I wouldn't take the crap he deals with every day and the frustration at some of the idiocy in the world he deals must be enormous.

Re:How does he stay alive?

[spectecjr]

As in who pays for RMS' living and traveling expenses? Donations to the FSF? Someone with insight please comment. I think in many ways RMS is brilliant, but how has he paid his bills promoting FOSS for the last 20+ odd years?

In 1990, he was awarded a $240,000 fellowship by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.
In 2001, he won an $268k Takeda Award for Techno-Entrepreneurial Achievement for Social/Economic Well-Being.

He ain't exactly hurting for cash. That's just the awards he has won. He makes most of his cash from speeches and personal appearances.

Which is cool, you know, if you're a superstar and can make money that way. But most programmers aren't, and can't.

Whoa there - Wikipedia: Consider the source

[TrappedByMyself]

The Wikipedia entry for Facism is currently flagged "The neutrality of this article is disputed."
If you read through the discussion you'll see claims that facism is incorrectly being tied with right wing politics

And for that American Heritage Dictionary definition;
A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism

The dictionary.com refrence which also lists the American Heritage Dictionary as its source has something quite different
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

I want a neutral argument here, but that second definition doesn't have the "liberal spin" to it. In other words, you don't see extreme right or merging of state and business leadership, but instead the traditional definition of facism, which has a dictator with total control over the government and the economy.

Interpret this as you will, but I see here a case where information does not equal truth. There are so many facts to choose from, that people pick the ones that suit them best. If you hate Bush, you pick the first definition, and count the ways in which Bush is worse than Hitler. If you support Bush, you pick the second one and accuse the smelly hippies of spreading misinformation.