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Vista Won't Play With Old DVD Drives

Posted by Zonk on from the taking-their-ball-and-going-home dept.

tlhIngan writes "From a developer's blog, Windows Vista will no longer support DVD-ROM drives that do not handle region coding in hardware (RPC1 drives) - thus preventing playback of DVDs that are region/CSS encoded with those drives. Not a big problem, as RPC1 drives haven't been officially manufactured since 2000 (and Microsoft claims their drives are all broken), but for those with hacked drives (RPC2 with RPC1 firmware), or move the RPC1 drive to new computers, well, no more DVD movies for you!"

32 of 726 comments (clear)

  1. This is a good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Since we're all a bunch of criminals anyway, this can only help to save us from ourselves. Thanks Microsoft!

  2. first goatse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    First Goatse of 2006!
    Trolls, fire up your keyboards; only 12 months until /.'s 10th anniversary!

  3. What about places like new zealand? by Saven+Marek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    what about places like new zealand where it is illegal to sell a region coded piece of hardware. does this count as like rpc1? does this mean Win Vista will not run in new zealand? if not then whatever new zealanders do will be able to be used anywhere else to get region free dvd drives on windows. if yes, then microsoft loses new zealand to linux in ten seconds flat.

    1. Re:What about places like new zealand? by dancingmad · · Score: 4, Funny

      if yes, then microsoft loses new zealand to linux in ten seconds flat.

      Somehow I doubt this keeps Bill Gates up at night.

      --
      "There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
    2. Re:What about places like new zealand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ah yes, but region-free encoding still requires encoding in hardware - to say it's region-free. Instead of saying "this drive only plays region 1", you're saying "this drive plays region 1, 2, 3, 4 etc..." - regardless of region, it's still gotta decode it. Region-free does not magically unencode the contents!

      The story is a bit misleading - basically Windows Vista will only support drives that do something in hardware, rather than the old style drives that required it to be done in software. It's not a DRM issue, just dropping of support for older drives - and saves them a bunch of problems building a driver layer in for what are legacy devices.

    3. Re:What about places like new zealand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, it is a DRM issue. You probably don't know exactly how DVDs work.

      The DVD video data itself is encrypted. In order to decrypt it, a DVD player app is supposed to ask the drive for the decryption keys. On older drives, the drive will give the player app those decryption keys regardless of what region the disc is coded for. The drive doesn't know what region the player app thinks it's in, and doesn't care. It simply hands the keys over to the player, which then enforces region encoding. The encryption is separate from the region coding - it's possible to have a region coded disc without CSS encrpyion (although it won't be effective), and it's possible to have a CSS encrypted disc without region coding.

      Newer drives refuse to hand over the decryption keys if the disc's region code doesn't match the drive's region code. That is the ONLY difference between older and newer drives. Official DVD player apps will not be able to read the decryption keys if the disc region code doesn't match the drive region code, because the drive won't give up the keys. This was added because some users started finding ways around the software-enforced region coding system (such as registry hacks, tricking the DVD player app into working in region-free mode, or whatever).

      Of course, open-source DVD player apps (which are illegal in the US anyway) don't even attempt to grab the decryption key from the drive - they deduce the decryption key by examining the encrypted data, using a known-plaintext attack. They don't enforce region coding either, and are completely unaffected by hardware region coding. That's the only reason I've not bothered reflashing my DVD drive to make it region free - I don't need to.

      The ONLY reason Microsoft are doing this is for DRM purposes. There is no other legitimate reason. Older drives do not need extra code (in fact, they need less code than newer drives), they don't need compatability layers, or any that stuff. All current (official) DVD player apps enforce region coding in software anyway, before they even ask the drive for the decryption key. This is only there to prevent people running patched firmware to make their drives region-free.

      They'll probably add code to prevent DVD rippers and open-source DVD players from working as well.

  4. Who has to use Vista? by pesc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...but for those with hacked drives (RPC2 with RPC1 firmware), or move the RPC1 drive to new computers, well, no more DVD movies for you!

    Funny reasoning!

    So why do you think you have to use Vista?
    Or if you think you need to upgrade your OS, why don't you consider Linux which I'm sure offers a better DVD watching experience than Vista on that hardware?

    --

    )9TSS
  5. Let's be suicidal, shall we? by DMouse · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why do the big players not get the long tail fact that stopping people from seeing your stuff is suicidal? There is so much other good stuff out there fighting for attention, be it news sites, blogs, podcasts, videocasts, flashfilms, indie films, et bloody cetera.

    The money is in editorial branding. And that is because editorial choice is a way of dealing with information overload. It's so freaking obvious, yet none of the majors seem to get it. Even when some english nightclub goes on to form a top selling dance mix brand, just by picking good tunes. This is the way it is done.

    Not by making your software even more anti-usable. FFS.

  6. ..and then they wonder why people pirate.. by takochan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In other words, people who have bought legitimate DVDs now cannot play them (BTW, buying DVDs from a different region is still legimate and not illegal, even if the DVD marketeers don't really like it).

    So now I guess everyone in the 'wrong region' will then have to get their movies from bittorrent instead.. yet another instance where big media and big software companies push their legimate customers to "piracy". That's brilliant...

    1)shut out legitimate DVD purchases
    2)push them to bitorrent
    3)????
    4)more profit?!?

    Gotta wonder about some of these companies...

    1. Re:..and then they wonder why people pirate.. by Max+von+H. · · Score: 5, Insightful

      BTW, buying DVDs from a different region is still legimate and not illegal, even if the DVD marketeers don't really like it.

      Good point. I live in a country (Switzerland) where the MPAA has little to no influence and in which I regularly rent zone 1, 2 or 5 DVD at the local videoclub and have been doing so for the past 4 or 5 years and my DVD player (panasonic) was zone-free when I bought it (like all DVD players sold here).

      DVD region coding is probably the stupidest ploy against consumers, especially at a time in which people can and do travel extensively around the world. Heck, you travel with your laptop and can't play a DVD you've rented once on the other side of the big pond? WTF? What's next, not being able to play media files if you're more than half a mile from home?

      All these measures only lead to what's now uncorrectly called "piracy", because we want to be able to do whatever pleases us with the hardware and software WE PAID FOR, not just what we're allowed by some paranoid Hollywood coke-head lawyers. No matter what's said in their illegal EULAs (well, they're not legal here), once I've bought something it's my absolute right to do whatever I want with it as long as it remains a private matter, period.

      Btw, downloading or copying stuff isn't piracy, it's not like we're robbing anyone, physically stealing property. The media industry hates us because of their so-called "loss of REVENUE", which IMHO may set a dangerous precedent. I mean, if they get their way, what's to stop them from litigating with anyone who simply doesn't buy their stuff?

      "Hey, your shopping decisions harm our business! Stop buying from the competition right away, or else!"

      --
      -- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
  7. Message to MS + studios: it's our hardware by Morgaine · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Message to Microsoft, and to the content providers:

    1) Our PC hardware is our private property, fully bought and paid for by us. Our PCs are not just a rented delivery platform which can rightly be controlled by you.

    2) The operating system that we run on our PC hardware has the purpose of making our hardware do whatever *WE* want *OUR* hardware to do, and not merely what *YOU* would like *OUR* hardware to do.

    If you want a fully controlled delivery platform doing whatever you desire and no more, then set up a subsidized leasing business and we'll rent the content delivery platform from you, at a cost far below the cost of private PC purchase.

    In the meantime, our hardware is ours to do with as we please.

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
  8. Re:Message to MS + studios: it's our hardware by bani · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're shouting at the wrong people. You should be shouting at your elected representatives (DMCA, etc).

  9. So what? by Hakubi_Washu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Install an operating system that does make your hardware do whatever you want! Microsoft is under no duty to make the system you wish for, they just make one they believe sells best, but it's up to you to decide whether you want to buy it or not...

  10. Won't stop VLC, presumably by Stephen+Williams · · Score: 5, Informative

    Unless I'm misunderstanding something (which is very possible, I don't know much about anything besides Linux and Star Trek), the Windows version of VLC will presumably keep on working, doing all the decoding in software using libdvdcss. So people will still be able to use it to view their legitimately-acquired foreign DVDs.

    -Stephen

    1. Re:Won't stop VLC, presumably by inquisitor · · Score: 4, Informative

      This isn't going to happen; as Raymond Chen repeatedly explains in the article, this affects only the official Windows region-checking subsystem and does not affect data reading. It was removed because it was causing playback problems for some users of RPC-2 drives and was causing benefit for very few people. (As a side note, I flashed several drives RPC-1 and it was very often hard - requiring specific DOS configurations and IDE configurations and all that - it wasn't exactly a consumer-level thing to do.)

      There hasn't actually been any need to flash drives RPC-1 for some time; Linux DVD players ignore the hardware region code and read the data directly, VLC on any platform ignores the hardware region code and reads the data directly, and on Windows AnyDVD provides a nice, easy-to-use solution for those who want to use any Windows DVD player (albeit for cost). Anyone who has flashed their drive RPC-1 will find it very easy to get an official manufacturer flash that makes it RPC-2 again, or know just to use VLC instead, so the problem is pretty much moot.

  11. Fine by LividBlivet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "well, no more DVD movies for you!" Ha. Well MS, no more money for you! Really, what incentive is there to *achem* upgrade to Vista anyway? 95/98 over W3.1 I get (pain in the ass as it was) ME over 98 ? no fsking way NT over 98 ? not for home use tnx 2k over 98 I get (glad I did) XP over 2k ? I can live without the eye candy Vista over 2k ? take your Trusted Computing and DRM and put it where the sun don't shine thank you very much. Until 64bit apps are the norm and force me to upgrade (like 32/16 with w2k) I can't see buying into this endless upgrade cycle.

  12. A solution! by zardie · · Score: 4, Funny

    1. Using DeCSS technology, copy your region encoded DVD to your PC's hard drive.
    2. Watch movie
    3. ...
    4. Profit! (but remember, this violates fair use policies if you do profit from this).

  13. RPC 1 is an upgrade. by CaptnMArk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I _upgraded_ most my DVD drives to RPC1.

    Having to suffer from region restrictions is not acceptable (locally both region 1 and region 2 dvds were easily available and I also order stuff from both amazon.com and amazon.co.uk.

    Of course, I usually play DVDs under linux, so this is not really a problem :)

  14. Price Gouging - DRM by evanism · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When will our governments, and consumers, realise that regionalisation is nothing more than a mechanism of creating continental price disparity and deliberate market manipulation? It has nothing to do with "costs" but maximising profits by restricting parallel imports. It does nothing for quality, or support....

    Consumers should respond by simply not buying anything which is deliberately designed to support a cartel. They are only ripping themselves off (The Matrix: US $9.95... Aust $19.48)

    Combined with DRM, how many months will we wait after the release of a fully DRM'ed Vista with hardware support before a company threatens its users with an OFF switch unless they pay their $2 per month DVD hardware "licencing" fee, or your CPU/RAM/HDD monthly "licencing" fee?

    Refuse to pay? OFF.

    --
    Just bought a new quantum computer, but I'm uncertain how it works.
  15. Congratulations by yobbo · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'd just like to congratulate anybody who has gotten over 5 years out of a DVD drive.

  16. Because people REALLY want to know... by NZheretic · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Asking Intel Because people REALLY want to know...

    llegal drugs are at least a big of a problem as copyright violation in the world today. In fact many of the artists promoted by Hollywood and the American recording industry include many positive drug related references in their scripts and lyrics. So the question is : Would you endorse forced illicit drug testing for all artists, actors and executives involved in content production?

    Over 11,000 people die in America each year at the hands of gun violence. The USA has the highest murder rate in the developed world. So the question is : Would you endorse taking away the legal capability of all Americans to bare arms?

    In the USA there are over 12,000 speeding-related traffic deaths per year. The technological capability exists to install a "governor" in every new automobile which would deny the driver the ability to exceed the speed limit. So the question is : Would you endorse restricting access to roads and highways to only vehicles that have such a speed restriction system installed?

    ( If the questioned person says yes to any of the above then pass the quote along to the Hollywood/recording/NRA/automobile media, bloggers and lobby groups etc)

    Spam advertising and spyware has become a major problem for computer users. The DRM capability that Intel is offering to content providers would also be available to those wanting to abuse those same user restrictions. Intel is effectively offering the ability to hide malicious content or deny access to content needed to gather evidence for the basis of a complaint. So the question becomes: Why are you offering up this ability to content providers when it denies the owners of the computer the ability to protect themselves?

    Whether it is a war on drugs, gun, or road crime restrictive and technological solutions that lock the end users out of the ability to make personal decisions perform actions are effectively a fundamental violation of a person's civil rights, even if taking that action could violate the law of the land.

    Even though illicit drug consumption is against the law, wholesale drug testing would be seen as a violation of a persons right to privacy. In fact most American courts would not accept evidence gathered though such an action.

    Even though gun related crime is a major problem, taking away the right for any citizens to bare arms would leave them at risk from criminals who would ignore the law as a matter of course.

    Even though speeding is a major problem, there are cases it is needed for safety. Overtaking vehicles may require the driver to exceed the speed limit to safely avoid oncoming traffic. Also there are rare cases, such as transporting someone requiring urgent medical treatment, where the even the courts have found that exceeding the speed limit was preferable to the affected person's demise.

    While making a copy of copyrighted content may seem trivial in comparison to the examples in the above three paragraphs, remember that Intel along with Adobe and Microsoft is talking of offering this same DRM technology for business, legal and even governmental documents. The ability to blow the whistle on suspect dealings, and pass copies along to the press and even authorities, may be severely restricted in the future.

    So the final question to everybody has become: Why should the consumers and citizens have to put up with DRM restrictions on their general purpose computers that they own?

  17. Re:Why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Personally, I'm already using Linux exclusively as a desktop on my new system. Why? No, I'm not just posting this to tout linux(Suse 10 is pretty damn slick though), but when I went to install Windows XP-64 on my system, it requires a ***FLOPPY*** disk in order to supply drivers for my SATA drive. My system doesn't have a floppy drive. WTF!? It's the year 2006, and a 64bit operating system that was released what, 4 months ago, requires a god damned floppy drive to install it? WTF is that about?

    True, I could go out and buy a floppy drive, or pull a floppy drive from another system, but is that reasonable in this day and age? WTF happened to "it just works"? No it don't.

    It seems like there's always some stupid fucking annoyance whenever I try to deal with Windows. People bitching about having to drop to a command line, shit. Get back to me when you have to rip apart two computers and swap ancient ass hardware you have no intention of using, just to get the operating system to install.

    Yeah, I can't wait for vista. God only knows what the fuck weird problem I'm going to run into. If I was inclined to paranoia, I'd think the Windows team is able to look into the future and discern what hardware combination I'm going to buy, so they can engineer Windows to work for everyone else smoothly, but require some asinine step from me just to piss me off. /end ranting, whining, bitching, and moaning.

  18. Re:whooboy. by arth1 · · Score: 4, Informative
    Save us from ourselves? Dude, if you're trying to pirate movies with one of those ridiculously slow 1x DVD-ROMS from 1998, Microsoft is doing you a favor in making you fork over 16 dollars on a new one.

    (I don't see the big deal. I mean, does anyone complain they can't plug their 40 meg MFM hard drive into their new motherboard that only has IDE and SATA ports?)

    You don't get it, do you? The problem is that the drive you can buy at newegg is region-locked, and the region can only be changed 4 times. This means that if I want to watch my American, Japanese and European DVDs, I need to buy three players (and a case big enough to accommodate them).

    --
    *Art
  19. Re:Why? by Dion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well, let's wait and see, there is no telling what will be in Vista or when it will ship.

    MS has pulled the "Wait for us, we're the leader"-stunt many times and I for one refuse to get suckered in by it any more. ... I was looking forward to NT5 back in '95, but it turned out didn't ship until 2000 (as w2k) eventhough MS has promised that it would be out the same time as w95.

    I'll belive in the features of Windows Vista when I see it running on a machine, not a minute sooner.

    --
    -- To dream a dream is grand, but to live it is divine. -- Leto ][
  20. Re:Why by Dion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The drive is not involved in region coding when the player does DeCSS in software in stead of cooperating with the drive about it, so all you need to do is use a user-loyal player in stead of a broken one.

    --
    -- To dream a dream is grand, but to live it is divine. -- Leto ][
  21. Re:Why by HateBreeder · · Score: 4, Informative

    with a bootable CD-RW of course...

    --
    Sigs are for the weak.
  22. Re:Why by aussie_a · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know Vista just keeps giving me more and more reason to overcome my difficulties with Linux. I want a computer that does what I want. Not some piece of DRM'd-up-the-wazzoo shit. (As an Australian I really dislike region coding).

  23. Re:Why by smittyoneeach · · Score: 4, Interesting

    DRM and region coding are going to be the best advertisement F/OSS ever had.
    Furthermore, people who otherwise have no problem paying for content will feel increasingly comfortable doing things that are "technically" illegal, concepts of what is "reasonable" having been thoroughly sodomized.
    So, let's blow by the angst and instead focus on promoting companies at every point in the chain who treat their customers like free, adult human beings.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  24. Two DVD drives on PC by COredneck · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One of my machines runs Win XP with a DVD burner. I recently started to pick up import Japanese Anime which are set to Region 2. When I got my first import, I put the DVD in and ran DVD Shrink. It insisted on changing the RPC-2 H/W Region Code. Of course, there are a max of 5 changes before the it is permanent. I ended up going out to pick up another DVD drive which is specific for Region 2 DVD's. What a pain !

    I would like to meet the a-hole, probably a marketing executive, who thought of this Region coding BS.

    On DVD Shrink, it is used for my own purpose of making dups of the DVD's i buy. The originals are kept at home and I play off the copies. I am about done with vacation and I recently bought some new Anime. I made copies and took the copies with me to watch when I have time. The originals are at home safe.

  25. Re:whooboy. by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Informative

    Or you can use a program like DVDidle pro that lets you switch to any region anytime you like.If I'm not mistaken anyDVD and DVD43 will also do the same.I personally like dvdidle pro for the fact that it'll load a movie into RAM so your drive doesn't have to spin so much.Great for saving juice and wear on my laptop dvd drive.

    --
    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  26. Re:Why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Let's face it, it's easier to get a virus than it is to install RAID drivers. They should just make viruses with payloads that install RAID drivers and be done with it.

  27. Re:Why by topham · · Score: 5, Interesting


    I get to spend the day trying to get an ATI video card working in my mothers computer.

    My dad calls me and asks if the card would be a good upgrade from the existing card and I suggested he try to see if there was an Nvidia card instead that might be a good deal. There wasn't. So I decide that my bias against ATI is several years old and they have probably fixed their drivers by now. (Which I have been assured by numerous people were all fixed and good since I bought my ATI all In Wonder years ago.).

    So I tried installing it the other day and spent god knows how long getting an error message at the end of the install process telling me to install the standard VGA drivers. Of which there does not seem to be any for Windows XP. (No, booting in the VGA mode didn't solve that problem).

    Since I had things to do last night for New Years I left before I could figure out the issue but now I have to travel back to my parents place and fix the problem.

    As much as hardware for my Mac tends to be more expensive, I'll take the price hit over the GOD DAMN HASSLE of Windows hardware.

    I am utterly sick of having to print out pages of information not provided by manufacturers just to install their products on the CURRENT VERSION of a Windows OS.

    And ATI is back on my forbidden hardware list.