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Mathematics Skills More in Demand Than Ever

Posted by Zonk on from the i-just-watch-numb3rs dept.

knownsense writes "Business week has a nice article (feel good, low on detail, vague numbers) on the rise of maths and mathematicians in a world that is increasingly obsessed with statistics, advertising, search engines, and algorithms. The article also deals with issues of privacy. How has mathematics, statistics and other number driven aspects of life impacted you in the last decade?"

43 of 590 comments (clear)

  1. Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by sbaker · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We all know that advancements in technology can cost people their jobs. However, in the case of the building industry in Texas, the effect of introducing new technology can often be somewhat delayed.

    Back in 1997, my new house was in the slow process of changing from plans on paper into bricks on concrete. One of the tasks that has to be done early on is to lay out the shape of the house accurately onto the land. My builder uses a sub-contractor to do that - and I had occasion to watch him work. He arrived in a beat up old pickup truck with four 'migrant workers' sitting in the back. In order to lay out the initial 'bounding rectangle' of the building, they follow this algorithm:

    * Measure a baseline for the long edge of the rectangle. Mark it with two stakes hammered into the ground and tie a length of nylon string between them.

    * Tie a second piece of string to one of the stakes and measure out the width of the rectangle along it. Eyeball the angle between the new edge and the baseline so it's roughly 90 degrees and you have an 'L' shape. One guy holds the string there.

    * Do the same at the other end of the baseline. Now you have a 'U' shape and two guys are holding the open ends of the strings.

    * Take a third piece of string - equal in length to the length of the rectangle. Give one end to each of the two guys who are already holding string. 'jiggle' them until all three strings are tight. You now have a parallelogram made of string, staked out at two corners.

    * Now take two long tape measures and with one guy standing at each corner of our parallelogram, position the tape measures along the two diagonals of the parallelogram. With two guys holding the tapes on the baseline stakes and the other two holding onto the strings and shouting out the lengths of the diagonals, they jiggle the two free points until all of the strings are tight and the two diagonals tape measures are reading the same lengths. This requires a lot of shouting, cursing and everyone telling everyone else which way to move.

    * Now they have a rectangle - so they bash in two more stakes and then level the whole thing with a really impressive-looking laser contraption.

    Well, I watched this with some amusement - and asked why they didn't just calculate the length of the diagonal. The boss guy said that you couldn't do that - "It's impossible". I told him about Pythagoras' theorem. With the aid of a calculator (he didn't know what that funny 'square-root' key was for), I was able to show him how easy it is to calculate the length of the diagonal and do away with all the ugly 'jiggling'.

    "Wow!" he said. Then he thought for a moment - "Now I'll only need three guys to hold the string!"...and fired one of them on the spot! I thought he was kidding - but the next day when they were measuring out the place for the garage, there was one less guy holding the string.

    So, a 2,500 year old technological advance cost some poor guy his job. ...sigh...

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
    1. Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by Funakoshi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      While I appreciate the story, I think your sub-contractor was pretty brutal, at the very least he should have had a theodolite (construction instrument) to turn his 90 degree angles for him. I sell construction equipment and there is no doubt that it is difficult to "teach an old dog new tricks", the technology available to those companies is mind boggling, but equally as amazing is the fact that they dont search it out to improve their effeciency.

      For example, the layout contractors I speak to (should) use instruments that allow them to layout their forms with not only no string, but also no paper. Plans are transfered to ruggedized PDAs, attached to instruments that calculate locations based on distance and angles from given landmarks, and stakes are pounded. They can increase productivity by 30% with very little effort at all. Some land suveyors are doing layout with GPS systems with sub-centimeter accuracy and are seeing 50-70% increases in productivity.

      I dont mean to flame the parent, he/she is correct, the users in that industry dont use enough technology, but it is available to them.

      PS: I think, no matter how much frickin money they make, they ALL drive beat up pickups

    2. Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by pogson · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The trailing edge of the bell curve can be accommodated by the small operations that are so small, staff cannot be cut further, the night shift, the undesirable post, and the dole/welfare/prison/social assistance.

      --
      A problem is an opportunity http://mrpogson.com
    3. Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't share your sense of gloom. People today are living longer and better than 50 years ago. People below the poverty line in the USA today drive their own car, they have color TV's, and they are vaccinated. None of them are going to be crippled by polio or die from the measles.

      Still, if you really think things are getting worse, let's make you King with absolute authority. What would you do to change things?

    4. Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by Dinny · · Score: 4, Interesting

      People are certainly safer and richer. Safer, look at the number of work related deaths as a percentage of population from 1950 to today. Richer, compare the average portion of income spent on luxuries like eating out.

      As far as happier, people have signifigantly more control over how they spend their time and what they do. People tend to settle in to a level of happiness based not on their current condition, but on what they compare it to. Find someone and compare what they would have had in the 50's to what they have now and see if what they have now makes them happy.

    5. Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Well, what would you do if you were a company that needed educated workers, but you could not find any? Apprenticeships!

    6. Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by Kevin+Stevens · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I spend about $100 a month on food. How do I do it? Rice and pasta are my main staples. On average I eat one meal a day. I don't buy junk food. The processed "easy" food is almost always more expensive and almost always less healthy. Eating one or two meals a day keeps me within my target weight range. I also enjoy cooking. It is not a chore to me, kind of like when you get a piece of code to work properly, sitting down to a good meal cooked with fresh ingredients is very satisfying.

      Lets break it down.
      One pound of pasta costs about a dollar. This will feed me for 4 meals. Sauce to be served with the pasta costs about $3, maybe $5 for a really pricey sauce or complicated homemade recipe. $6 = 4 meals. $1.50 a meal. Throw some meat in there or a veggie to make it $2.
      About 10 pounds of rice costs about $5. A cup of rice is good for about 3-4 servings, and there are about 25 cups of rice in a bag. So rice costs about 5 cents for a meal. Youre going to need some veggies and meat in there to make a decent meal, so youre total cost for a meal of rice and whatever is probably going to be $2.

      So even a balanced meal costs $2. Eat one time a day and you're costs for a dinner are $60. The other $40 is accounted for by things like fruit, salads for lunch, cereal, milk, bread, drinks, and the occasional seafood or steak dinner, etc. I am also a single guy living in a small apartment and don't get to benefit from buying large quantities. One big caveat is that I don't consider going out to dinner and other entertainment type meals to be a part of my regular food bill. I also don't throw out food ever. Occasionally I will make a mistake and keep milk or tomatoes too long and have to throw them out, but that is pretty rare.

      If you don't like rice and/or pasta, you will probably be shit out of luck. You will also probably be overweight, have high cholesterol, and in generally bad health. People who view starch and carbohydrates as bad just floor me. Starchy foods satisfy you a great deal more than any other types of food and hence you eat less, yet still have a low calorie density.

      Never want to look at rice again? In Southeast Asian countries, rice is the main staple and served with just about everything. They seem to be fine with this.

    7. Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by sammy+baby · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Well, yeah, but I haven't seen it phrased so nakedly since...

      Well, since this guy.


      "At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and Destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

      "Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

      "Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

      "And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

      "They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

      "The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.

      "Both very busy, sir."

      "Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."
    8. Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs. by Audacious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, fifty years ago I was born (1956). :-)

      World War II saw the greatest expansion of education since....welllll World War I. It was still a boom economy in the fifties and the baby boomers were in full swing. Education was in full swing also. Many people who, as children, never had educations were getting their kids educations. Actually, not since World War II have we had so many people trying to better themselves and get an education (in the US that is). The dropout rate and educational rate of most students in today's schools is dismal compared to the 1950s. Free thinking, free love, free, free, free makes people lazy. Lazy people don't try to think and in many cases refuse to think. My wife, who teaches science, sometimes just wants to go screaming down the corridor. You teach a kid something, ask them to repeat it, and many times they either can't or won't. Last year 80% of her class graduated, this year (she got moved to 8th grade from 6th grade) only 60% of the student are passing. Of those, only 30% may make it to the end of the semester. Compare this to the 90% graduation rates of the fifties and I think you will see that although there are more people around now than before - fewer of them are graduating or even making it through school.

      Now, granted, my wife is teaching in a mainly hispanic school who got a large influx of kids from Louisiana after the hurricane. Many of the kids can barely talk English, there is a high dropout rate because the families move a lot, and they have a higher percentage of kids who's parents get divorced or just one of them walks out on the other. But her school is not out of line with others where other ethnic majorities reside.

      For instance, the Sharpstown school in Houston, Texas last year had a huge scandal because they falsely stated that only 5% of the kids were dropping out of school. Then it was found out that the principal and others had cooked the books and that really about 25% of the kids had dropped out of that school. The Sharpstown school is predominately white so any social bias would not apply.

      So the problem isn't who you are teaching but that kids today seem to be less motivated to go to school than ever before. I can't blame them either. With all of the things the government has done and is doing about all these kids can look forwards to are scum jobs. As with Charles Dickenson's book "A Tale of Two Cities", we are becoming a country of the haves and have nots even though we already know what happens when that situation occurs. This isn't to say that there aren't people out there trying to change things. But it is to say that there are a heck of a lot more people in need than we have people to fix the problem (or even money to fix the problem).

      So no. There are more people alive today than there were back in the 50s and there are more people out of work, looking for jobs, and not having the proper skills to achieve their goals today than in the 50s. Consequently, there are more people today and fewer in yesteryear who are uneducated and unskilled.

      . . .

      To show what I mean:

      My father's father was an unskilled worker until World War I. During World War I he received an education while in the military. My father was born just after the end of World War I. His family lived in a tiny town which didn't even have running water and was near a swamp. Where exactly I won't say. His dad taught him how to hunt so he could help bring home food when he was old enough. My father went to school up to 10th grade. (Which, I think, was the highest grade at the time.) When World War II came along, he enlisted, fought, came home, and then went to college while still in the armed forces. He married my mom who had also gone to school. Both parents went through the Great Depression. My mom's family moved all the way from the northwest to the southeast where, when she was older, she met my father. No matter where we moved to - we went to school. Being military kids, our f

      --
      Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke. :-)
  2. Be pushed around by PietjeJantje · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They always advertise it as a field, and sure it's interesting, but as a job, to be a mathematician you're typically in a position where you are a tool for the non-mathematician's. Of course the non-math's want more math's to do the work for them and tell them what to do... but is it a good carreer?

    1. Re:Be pushed around by systmoadownfreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Honestly I do think that it would be a good career. I know that while I've always been more oriented toward the social studies/english aspect of school, the maths/sciences are something that hold great importance to advancing our technology as a whole. This is one of the main reasons that Japan has excelled in recent years. Their educational system is very effective in teaching the subjects related to math. In the US however, it seems that we go for every new educational fad that comes out. We spend so many of our resources on trying to promote the new political agendas to students that a lot of the focus is lost.

      On the subject of mathmeticians always being told what to do by other people, well a lot of careers are like that. Doctors and lawyers both have to do as their clients want. Mathmaticians are a large part of ensuring accurate information without forcing other resources to be used on performing such calculations.

      The way that I see it, I don't think that it would be such a bad job to have. Nor do I just think that it's a job where all you do is other people's dirty work.

    2. Re:Be pushed around by elstumpo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, it is a great career. I have been a corporate mathematician doing various things like the article talks about, for the last 10 years. My job is always interesting enough to make me want to go. Not too many other people can do my job, so I have security. And, there's sufficient demand for my services that if my employer upsets me, I can go elsewhere. And it pays a lot. The whole point of my jobs is that I am expected to be provably correct, and that my suggestions will be followed without much room for debate. The problems only come when people feel threatened, and there is politics and so forth. But if the organization is capable of acting in its best interests, that is exactly what the mathematician is figuring out. S/he says "this is the path of our best interest. I can prove it." Eventually, the business has to do what we say, or go out of business.

      To the extent that we're often modeling something, there's wiggle room in the models. Models could be built well or poorly. And the above paragraph is only true if you do a sufficiently good job modeling.

  3. Computational Linguistics by Vann_v2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The technique in this article is actually used, too, and can be used on different levels. That is, the BW article says this company uses it to measure the distance between two articles, but you can use it to compare the distance between two words. Here's how.

    Let's say you have some corpus with N distinct words in it. For each word w you create a "context vector" vw of length 2N. In the first N positions there are counts for the number of time each word in the corpus appears immediately to the left of the word w, and for the second N positions there are counts of the same for the right context. The angle between any two vectors in this 2N-dimensional vector space produces a measure of the distance between the two words. If you use some kind of dimensionality reduction technique to get a 2-dimensional representation, you can see that although this technique is pretty crude linguistically speaking it does pretty well. Each language has a distinct "shape" in this regard, with similar words grouped together, i.e., in English there might be a cluster of points consisting of "singular nouns," or specific parts of speech, like prepositions. It can sometimes even group words by semantic domain, depending on your corpus.

    Remember kids, computational linguistics is fun!

    1. Re:Computational Linguistics by 19061969 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Are you discussing latent semantic analysis by any chance? ;^)

      It performs well in certain areas (for example, completing certain MCQ's to the same level as humans), automatic essay marking (but read the Powers et al study for more), and other things. It's surprising how well it does despite there being a complete absence of grounding (grounding in artificial intelligence terms).

      --
      bang goes my karma... again...
    2. Re:Computational Linguistics by gol · · Score: 2, Interesting

      already been done, many years ago
      this guy presents nothing new. there are a host of such vector-space techniques, such as Latent Sematnic Analaysis, which all depend on this crucial reduction of dimensions to collapse similar vectors in such a way that they move closer to each other. article here. Not a great article to be honest, but I can't be bothered to edit it.

      --
      -Drew
  4. Re:The Pure Profession by Keck · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And so I slowly started to realize that mathematics were the underlying principle to everything. Maybe you've seen the motion picture Pi and remember the part where the main character has a revelation that everything can be described by math. In my opinion, he was dead right.

    I'm a math/sci geek too (do you have to SAY that on /.?) but I want to point out that we are well served to be aware of the limitations of math and logic. Some people put as much faith in logic and our own mathematical knowlege as any fundamentalist zealot puts in their own religion. Reasonable people (and the smartest mathematicians and scientists I've ever seen) realize that math and even logic are human's own inventions, and are limited in what they can be applied to. That said, they are a hugely useful system of describing the natural world and even abstract ideas in a very communicable way -- we've often heard and said that Math is the true international language. Yet, there are statements in math that we know we can neither prove nor disprove -- and conversely, there are things we know to be true (by experience, which Einstein referred to as the ultimate truth) but we know for sure can't be proven!

    Google for "Gödel's theorem", or maybe "metamathematics" before knee-jerk replying, please.

    --
    A computer without Microsoft is like ice cream without ketchup.
  5. Re:The Pure Profession by RalphLeon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You know it always amazes me that when anyone talks about math they start talking statistics and calculations. This is not pure mathematics. Statistics is its own breed and calculations are for the engineers, pure mathematics is about abstractions of formal logic.

    Now if we wanted to start talking about ring theory, field theory, galois theory, real analysis, topology, etc. these are examples of the pure mathematical concepts. Not number crunching. All of these other things like "statistics" and "applied math" are great things but I feel that they are certainly not pure.

  6. Excluded middle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It may be just me, but it seems that lots of the traditional computer science curriculum has changed. I remember there being some calculus and statistics with calc requirements. Recently I looked at some school catalogs and was surprised to see that the math requirements for a computer science degree had changed substantially to the point that calc II or III was no longer needed. If the article is true then we're in for a real shortage of programmers who understand the mathematics.

    At the same time I'm seeing mathematics positions than seemingly didn't exist before. The odd thing is that they were primarily math positions with some computer language requirements instead of the reverse. Instead of some actuarial positions, there are openings in software houses, animation studios, civil sector, etc..

    Guess geeks will have their time in the spotlight again soon. Yay for me.

    KLL

    1. Re:Excluded middle by aetherspoon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That tends to happen when CS gets taught by engineering departments rather than mathematics departments. Originally, all CS departments were an extension of the mathematics departments. Later on, most shifted towards engineering. Of those that shifted to engineering, the CS fields are taught more from an engineering point of view (design/build your code and produce the product) rather than a mathematics/science point of view (learn of the theories of your code, think about how to design some abstract concept instead of a final product). In the former point of view, mathematics ends up being skimmed over more than the latter.

      Not to say that all engineering departments are like that - obviously there are quite a few exceptions. However, that's how it is - Engineering is applied mathematics after all. My CS degree consisted of probably just as much math as computers, if not more. Calc 1/2/3 and lots of mathematical electives.

      (Disclaimer: I'm a CS/Math major)

      --
      --- Ãther SPOON!
    2. Re:Excluded middle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      I remember there being some calculus and statistics with calc requirements. Recently I looked at some school catalogs and was surprised to see that the math requirements for a computer science degree had changed substantially to the point that calc II or III was no longer needed. If the article is true then we're in for a real shortage of programmers who understand the mathematics.


      Well, I had the same view about one of our local state universities until I realized what they had done. They operate on a semester system and everybody (all CS that is) takes a five semester hour Calc I. Calc II can be taken in its full five hour version, or an abbreviated three hour version aimed at CS majors. They then ADDED requirements for linear algebra (which is application oriented) and calc based statistics, and of course discrete has always been part of the plan. One prof I spoke to mentioned that the only reason they require Calc II at all is that some of the subject matter dovetails into linear (I think they talk about matrices at the end of Calc II). So in the end, I think people are taking "different" math than many of us took, but it might be more relevant. Not every CS major wants a math minor, so it might be good to establish a baseline of math more relevant to CS than calculus. Are they going to rival math majors at math? Hell no, but eighteen semester hours of math (or around twenty four quarter hours if you prefer) isn't that bad for a working class CS generalist.

      Sure, if you want to write code for mechanical engineers or something drive on right through third semester calc, diffeqs and then analysis. You crypto guys take whatever crypto guys take. Some of us like systems coding more (or gasp business apps) and this stuff really doesn't do anything for us.
  7. Sounds good now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Imagine:

    1. Having your TV programming automatically fed to your house based on your previous preferences
    2. Having web sites sent to your browser based on predictive algorithms sitting at Google
    3. Receiving even more targeted advertising sent to your mail box and telephone (during dinner)
    4. Etc.

    One of the (many) problems with predictive algorithms and maths is that it requires input as a training set to determine the output. The implication is that all of this targeted marketing will make it harder to find new and different things and experiences. I already get this crap with Amazon, which seems to regurgitate suggested reading titles for books I've already bought (many from Amazon).

    Part of the spice of life is finding new things. The trend towards compartmentalization and specializationg driven by marketers and business interests will make life more boring.

  8. Perceptions of maths by massivefoot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's true that mathematics is very much in demand, but unfortunately in the UK that hasn't translated into a greater interest in mathematics. I don't know how things are abroad, but here it's considered shameful to be illiterate, but almost embarrassing to be numerate.

    I'm currently at uni studying maths, and a huge number of the people on my course are from overseas. Is it only the UK which seems to suffer from some sort of violent social allergy to mathematical competence?

    1. Re:Perceptions of maths by BenjyD · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I always find it odd that in intelligent UK middle-class society it is assumed people know some literature, geography, history, politics and classical music, all relatively complex areas, but even the simplest mathematical or technical ideas are unknown.

  9. Why math is the greatest of all subjects by nandu_prahlad · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Math is truly the most awsome among all subjects. Learning it offers you the kind of freedom that is unmatched by learning any other subject. Have you noticed how a mathematician can switch easily between multiple areas of study? That's cuz one can apply math to almost every field imaginable from Language (Computational Linguistics) to Biology (Computational Biology). I don't mean to dismiss learning other subjects (it's important to be well rounded) but can any other subject gift you you with such amazing flexibility?

    There's beauty and elegance in a mathematical result which will always remain true forever. School kids even today, study about the Pythogoras theorem - a mathematical result that was established more than 2 thousand years ago. You're learning Calculus that was discovered by Newton & Liebniz several hundred years ago. Compare this with other fields like Management where the MBA syllabus keeps changing as newer management techniques and new buzzwords/MBA jargon are invented.

    Again, I don't mean to dis MBA dudes. It's just that in an fast paced information age where paradigms are constantly being challenged and new ones being invented, it is reassuring to have a body of knowledge that you can always depend on no matter what.

    Seriously! You don't have to be good at math (I'm just a lowly Master's and that too in CS :)) to appreciate the beauty and elegance of this amazing subject.

  10. Humans create, Computers execute by digitaldc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I assure you that mine are greater. - Albert Einstein

    I have learned that you can do wonderful and amazing things with machines and math, but machines themselves will never reproduce the creativity, insight, and wonder of the human mind.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
  11. Laying Tile by IAAP · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The 3-4-5 rule for getting the grout lines square to the reference wall. Measure 3' along the outside wall, mark a small line 4' perpendicalur to that line, then from the end of the 3' measure 5' until it intersects with the 4' mark. Now you have a right angle for laying out you tile.

    It's funny, but I've used more math (especially geometry) doing home improvement projects than I ever did programming computers. Granted, I've never did any intense graphics programming, but a little bit of UI type of stuff.

  12. Math can be useful like for this FoxTrot cartoon! by antdude · · Score: 2, Interesting

    View FoxTrot cartoon and figure out its Easter Egg. I suck at math, but at least I knew it was binary and had to decode it. You can view AQFL for the analysis and answer. :)

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  13. Making money as a freelancer mathematician by Lakedemon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I would like to know if there is a way to make money out of maths skills, as a freelancer.

    I mean, I have a phd and I'm quite good at maths, having solved the 3 problems who where thrown at me in 1 year and a half (instead of the regular 3 years) but what I would like to do is :
    solve mathematical problems/bring solutions to people/firms in exchange for hard coin.
    Kind like a mathematician freelancer/mercenary : You do the job, you get the money and that's it.

    I mean, there are web sites for freelancer artists/web developer/coder. But there isn't one for mathematicians.

    So, the only way to make money out of maths (in france) is either to teach it or to research in an university. Either way, you are a salary man.

    Man, that sucks.
    What is the use for those monsters maths skills, that I patiently honed all these years if I can't even make a little cash out of it/or make more money out of it that the average teacher (that really sucks at research/high lvl maths) ?

    1. Re:Making money as a freelancer mathematician by akuma(x86) · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Go to Wall Street.

      They have tremendous demand for mathematicians that can develop models to quantify risk.

      This is not a trivial problem. It is quite technically challenging and requires very sophisticated mathematical skills. Oh, and you'll make more money than God.

    2. Re:Making money as a freelancer mathematician by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What is the use for those monsters maths skills, that I patiently honed all these years if I can't even make a little cash out of it/or make more money out of it that the average teacher (that really sucks at research/high lvl maths) ?

      Well, my dad started out teaching the a 7th-grade math class (with the "bad kids") in a small midwestern US town in the early 1960s. His salary was about $3000/year.

      He parlayed a love and talent for math education into multiple millions of dollars by becoming a textbook and classroom materials author and publisher. When I was a teenager (the mid-'80s), he was pulling in around $500K/year from book royalties. Later, he and a writing partner formed a publishing company of their own that did well until they wanted to retire and sold it off. You can still find some of his stuff on Amazon.com, but I'm not going to shill the links.

      And the royalty checks still roll in occasionally, a dozen years after retirement.

      Note that his passion was more about being an "educator" than a "mathematician", though he is one of the best of both.

  14. Where? by weierstrass · · Score: 2, Interesting

    >Instead of some actuarial positions, there are openings in software houses, animation studios, civil sector, etc..

    i am a final year mathematics student whose dream isn't to work as an actuary or for a merchant bank. if anyone has advice on interesting fields where mathematicians are required rather than tolerated, i would appreciate it. or in general, advice on where to look.

    i have studied almost exclusively pure maths, mainly analysis and number theory with some algebra and computational stuff, and can program C, some Fortran and some C++.

    --
    my password really is 'stinkypants'
  15. Too late by liangzai · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When I tell a potential employer I know Galois theory, he stares at me for a few seconds, and then asks me "Do you know how to use Excel?". To which I reply that I prefer Mathemathica and rarely touch Microsoft products. Then the interview is over.

    When I tell a girl I admire her Riemannesque topology and say her virtues are greater in number than those of the girls of Lesbos combined and raised to the googoolth power, she says: "Dude, you are such a sweetie, but I have to go now".

    When I tell my neighbor he can make his wine cellar temperature independent by putting it y meters below the ground, he says "Well, aren't you a smarty, boy!", grins, and then returns home to put on the missis.

  16. Math vs. UFO's and Witchcraft by KevinGlenRoyGreer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While browsing the stacks at my local library I came upon the mathematics section. It only contained about five or six books: two grade four or five textbooks and a couple books on math puzzles. I found this very disappointing given the importance of mathematics in so many fields, but then, to make things even worse, I happened to notice that the nearby sections on U.F.O's and Witchcraft were actually far better stocked. It made me wonder if this was caused by society's indifference towards mathematics or if it was merely caused by the liberal arts bias of most librarians.

  17. Financial industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I'm surprised no one's brought this up yet--but the past decade or so, math has become super attractive in the financial industry.

    Math majors from top schools are being recruited (along with other hard sciences, physics and CS) by banks, hedge funds, etc. and getting 6 figures right out of college. No kidding. The story is, about a decade or so ago, some hedge funds decided to try letting some really smart people (i.e. math majors from top schools) handle money. They did so well, they made a fortune and it turned the industry upside-down. Well, that might be an exaggeration, but it's more or less true.

    Markets had a number of pricing inconsistencies, etc. in them, and these smart mathy people figured out how to take advantage of them. Lots of algorithms and computer programming found application to managing these hedge funds. To correct for these abuses, the markets had to close the gaps and inconsistencies these hedge funds were abusing.

    Although a lot of the market problems have since been cleaned up, a lot of math is going into managing funds to maximize profit. There aren't as many people making millions off of just trading, but there's a lot of jobs in the financial industry for smart math people that still pay extremely well.

    The financial industry learned its lesson: math is incredibly useful. This has already been obvious in industries like computer programming, where sophisticated math goes into designing algorithms. In the future, I think we'll continue to see other industries finding out how huge the benefits of math can be.

  18. Re:Math is hurt in the USA by its negative image by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As far as I can tell there are 3 major sources of math anxiety:
    1. Parents who don't know math, and thus can't teach mathematical concepts to their kids beyond counting.
    2. Elementary school teachers who deemphasize math in favor of reading and 'riting.
    3. Popular culture.

    The first cause is really only solveable if you solve the other 2 causes, because you need a generation of mathematically literate parents.

    If you look at the people who are doing elementary school teaching, their primary focus tends to be teaching reading, handwriting, neatness, respect for authority, etc. Arithmetic tends to be taught more as rules to memorize than as ideas to understand (for instance memorizing that 3+4=7 rather than taking 3 things, taking 4 more things, and counting how many you have when you're done), leaving students with very little connection between math and reality.

    Popular culture contributes as well. For instance, it creates an image of math as the province of strange or crazy people who work with ideas us peons can only dream of understanding. Even places where math comes into play, such as sports statistics, business news, government budgets, etc there's a big effort to avoid making the math understandable.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  19. Re:The Pure Profession by pythorlh · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Actually, Godel went even one step farther. He proved that there are statements that can produce a completely consistent logic, whether you chose to make them axiomatic, or to make their inverse axiomatic. Thus, these statements are not only logically true, but also logically false (in a sense).

    Non-Euclidean geometry was the first evidence of this fact. The axiom was that any point can have only a single line that passes through it parallel to another given line. Euclid took this as an axiom, and went on to define planar geometry. The non-Euclidean geometries of curved spaces came about by taking it as an axiom that the statement is false.

    --
    Do not confuse duty with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different.Duty is a debt you owe to yourself.
  20. Unprovable Statements by pinka · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You're only partially right. Axioms are statements that (1) can't be proven, and (2) you assume are true, and everything is built upon them. However, there are other, non-axiomatic, statements in any formal system that cannot be proven either true or false. That's what the parent was talking about (hence the mention of the Godel's incompleteness theorem). BTW, if you're a CS major, you've encountered this in the form of the Halting Problem :)

    In fact, much work has been done in the last few decades in the model-theory literature. It used to be believed that Goedel like unprovable, unfalsifiable statements were somehow unnatural and would never surface in "ordinary" mathematics. After all, except for theoretical computer science classes, where does the halting problem show up in ordinary computer science? Then came the Paris Harrington theorem, a result from generalized ramsey theory which was proved to be unprovable in peano arithmetic. Since then other natural unprovable results have been found as well.

  21. Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA by eepok · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think you over-estimate the quality of life at the poverty line and all the problems that go along with it. The sense that you give is that people who live under the line have all the amenities everyone else has, but only to a lower quality.

    Let me help you out here. I lived with a family of 6 whose yearly average of taxable income of $14,000 (c.2000). We received welfare ($600/month), food stamps ($250/month), and received subsidized rent via HUD ($-400/month). As you can tell, we were below the poverty line.

    Now consider the average education level of those under the line. I think my family was a good example having a Vietnam-vet with a GED as a father and a middle-school-educated mother. They were not capable of finding significant income in an area that would allow "people like us" to live.

    They eventually got a car-- an '80s junker on a 16% interest loan. We had 2 color televisions with cable. "Why?," you ask? because there is literally NO OTHER WAY OF ESCAPE in a society that focuses around entertainment! A one-time cost of $200 and a monthly cost of $25 is damn reasonable when you consider that most Slashdotters rarely think more than twice about upgrading their system (or buying a new one) with a pricetag of 200+.

    Lastly, there's all the qualitative differences in a family that lives below the poverty line. There's frustration (an extreme understatement here) of being stuck and unable to provide. This anger is, more often than not, expressed physically with women and children on the receiving end. There's depression, lack of confidence, in ability to socialize outside of your born-in group as other groups cost money to associate with, no culture of education... there is no hope.

    So, before you rain judgement from upon high based on severly miscalculated eyeball-assumptions, give it a shot.

    --Ps. The polio thing made me laugh. If you're poor and living in California, you have a limited number of times you can see a physician, emergency room, dentist, or an optometrist in a year. When I was in high school ('96-'00) we had 6 stickers on our Medical tickets. 1) Glasses, 2) Fillings, 3) busted thumb in PE, 4,5,6) Tonsilitis. After that, and with a 104-fever, I was SOL.

    1. Re:Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This isn't caused by technology though. This is caused by America's capitalist attitude and the notion of 'survival of the fittest'.

      Look at Europe and, primarily the UK, you will see a largely different picture with more socialist ideals. I agree this doesn't stop people being below a poverty line in respect to the majority but it does ensure everyone can at least have a roof, food and healthcare provided. If they want more than just the essentials the idea is you then seek employment.

  22. Math has always been a necessity by cnerd2025 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The simple fact is that only a small percentage of the population has the requisite knowledge of mathematics, and only a small percentage of them have the passion and drive to pursue math even further. I am one of those mathephiles, and I'm proud of it. The problem with the article is that non-mathletes don't necessarily understand mathletes. It raises privacy problems and such as problems in the mathematical world, but the real fact is, math really does nothing to avert privacy. Maty can be used to devise algorithms which may or may not undermine privacy. The real fact is, however, that overzealous entrepreneurs will attempt to bastardize the good applications of math for their own ill gain. I don't really see a problem with the mathematical progress we make. I personally think that if businesses use math, and consumers are too stupid to realize they are being pimped, for lack of a better term, by industry, then they deserve what they get. I will still be an alert person and protect my privacy by being careful. There is no substitute for common-sense.

    The other problem I have is that we need to lure women and "ethnic minorities" into mathematics. Sure, it would be wonderful if there were more female mathematicians. But we can't simply set up a quota system for mathematicians. This is more of a society problem than education or anything. Big entertainment has put out this message that being intelligent is "uncool," especially when one is good at math. In fact, society scorns illiterates, but people brag about inneptities in mathematics. Look at the news media. They are preaching about this avian flu, but their already fragile case for hysteria is flattened by their fouled up statistics (no pun intended). They say the mortality rate is something like 75%. With a logistic growth model, that would knock off huge amounts of the population in its second stage, which has definitely not happened yet. But if you look at the sources of their statistics, they only accounted for people who have been confirmed with avian flu, and specifically those who died or were critically ill. The actual numbers of people who have been infected is probably much higher, and in past years many people have probably been affected by it and then overcame it, thinking it was a "normal" flu. With these people taken into account, the true mortality rate is probably much less. The lack of math knowledge in the media is terrible, because these people just utter words that they think they understand. "Mortality rate" is the ratio of deaths (with respect to something) per 1000 people. If you looked up infant mortality rate, it would be quoted as "n deaths per 1000 live births". When society en masse becomes more attentive to mathematics, then we will start to see women enter the field.

    'Ethnic minorities' was the phrase that stumped me. Why do we beat around the bush and use this PC "ethnic minority" crap? I work in a physics lab with physicists, enginneers, and mathematicians. Its like the friggin' UN in there. A guy from Thailand, one from India, a Pacific Islander, a guy from China, a black guy, then two white guys (another guy and I) all work in an office. There is no clear majority! The only real fact is that we're all men. What pisses me off is that we can't say "we wish more blacks would enter the mathematics field," we have to say "we hope 'ethnic minorities' enter mathematics." Ethnic minorities are distributed all throughout mathematics in the US. Asians, Indians, and Arabs are all present in mathematical fields. Maybe when ignorance by the media is overcome, and the real truth is confronted, then we'll see mathematics interest really spike across the board.

  23. I am a freelancer mathematician by coult · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am a freelancer mathematician (see http://www.northcountrynumerics.com/) . I work in seismic exploration, and also defense-related industries. I don't think it is possible to do this kind off work without having lots of personal connections, though; clients don't want to entrust some random person they've met once with a difficult and important mathematics problem. My work with my clients is much more like an academic collaboration (without the annoying emphasis on publications, though ironically I have more time for publication now than I did when I was in academia) than it is like an engineering or software development task.

    The projects are also usually quite specialized, so you can't really walk in and solve someone's problem unless you aren't already quite knowledgeable in that particular sub-field of mathematics, and have a proven record of solving problems in that area.

    --

    All is Number -Pythagoras.

  24. just like martingale... by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you have unlimited capital and no betting limit, you cannot lose.

    But LTCM didn't have unlimited capital and did have a betting limit (you can't make a bet larger than the rest of the world is willing to take the other side on).

    LTCM was betting martingale. That they had two Nobel prize winners and 250 more years of advancement and still ended up with a system that only works as well as martingale is both in indication of the level of foolishness on Wall Street and a real indication of the difficulty (possibility?) of beating the market with a system.

    Anyway, if you read the book (better yet, both), you can see that even if they had a few mathematical equations saying they were right, there's a lot more reasons they were actually wrong. The complexity of the markets is sufficient that you can make an equation showing how safe you are and still be wrong. Your equation is either built on incorrect assumptions or fails to include other factors that turn out to be important.

    LTCM was wrong mainly because they were using far too much leverage and thought it was okay because they thought they had multiple independent "wagers" that thus lowered their risk, because the likelihood of two independent failures of their system was very low, and they figured they could survive 3 or more! The problem is their wagers were not really independent and so more than 3 went south at once. They fooled themselves. They were fools, not victims of circumstance.

    Here's the one most importance in "When Genius Failed". LTCM's return on working capital was smaller than that of a savings account. Their real trick was being able to borrow capital at such low prices. If they had deposited their borrowed capital in savings accounts they would have made more money faster and not lost their butts either. What geniuses.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  25. Re:Math is hurt in the USA by its negative image by MobyDisk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, I guess maybe the problem was just me. Let me tell you something about myself. Maybe you can help:

    In high school, when I was at home and bored, I wrote code to get objects to move around in 3D space on the screen. I figured out how to make smooth curves with cubic equations. I toyed with fractals because they looked cool. I made eclectic music by playing with trig functions.

    The same year I was writing 3D transforms I was sent back a grade from trig back to algebra because I couldn't keep up. The teacher thought I was wasting my time on these programs until I had a solid foundation. To this day I want to go back and kick her ass. Despite years writing 3D games I barely squeaked though linear algebra in college. If only somebody had explained to me that those equations I used were based on 3x3 and 4x4 matrix multiplications I might have done better. Maybe I wouldn't have failed Calc if someone pointed out that the smooth curve functions that I wrote were based on the principle of keeping the derivitive of the curve continuous.

    This is why I want applied math. All my life I solved math problems, learned new math myself, and applied it. All while my teachers couldn't even connect what I was doing to the theory they taught.

    Call it applied math. Call it pure math. Whatever. Here's my request: Just don't let another student go through what I did.