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1up has an interesting look at the curious place where religious beliefs and gaming habits intersect. From the article: "'We view games as just games,' says Kendrick Kenerly, founder of +CGO+, Christian Gamers Online. 'They all boil down to a few things: They have a goal, they have a reward for the goal, and they have a set of rules that need to be followed to reach the goal. The violence in most games isn't something we get worked up about. It's merely presentation, simply a way to convey an experience to players so they can follow the rules to reach the goal.' Abstract games like checkers, chess, and Monopoly operate in the same fashion, Kenerly argues-they merely employ different presentation methods."

38 comments

  1. That's right by interiot · · Score: 2, Funny

    Killing pawns and rooks is obviously intended to desensitize people into more violent means of expression. Why do you think there are so many smelly people who do medieval reenactment?

    1. Re:That's right by ShamusYoung · · Score: 1
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    2. Re:That's right by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 2

      Well, I guess this throws cold water on my cunning plans for Grand Theft Auto: God's Country.

  2. The Warrior Man by teratogenicbenzene · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The article brings up an interesting point that I've always used to defend myself against more radical religious elements I've come into contact with:

    Men are fricking war machines, and throughout nearly any of the world's holy books war is a fact of life: the Bible, the quran, (heck even the Bhagavad-Gita is narrated in a war setting).
    In today's culture, men are told that the very things that selected their genes for greatness in the past (i.e. warrior prowess and the ability to survive) are liabilities. Thousands of years of genetic selection aren't going to be reversed in a few hundred years.
    In that vein, I believe video games are a reasonable (and even constructive) outlet for a man's natural agressions. It could be said that God made men this way, so who are we to deny that?

    For me, my faith is almost exclusively about self control, but at the same time I'm fully aware of my own humanity. Having a safe and (legal) outlet for myself is a wise choice. Obviously, games can become pathological, but that's true about anything.

    My personal poison is Halo, and I've found that during the game I increasingly find myself looking after the welfare of my marine NPCs. I do generally tend to steer away games that are violent for violence sake. I think if you look back, the reason so many early games were generally pointless (i.e. DOOM's run-and-shoot mentality) is because back then that was already pushing the limits.

    Just my two cents. Most rabid religious types are simply afraid of change. There are some of who aren't blindly reactionary, and realize that this isn't an bridge we want to burn our credibility/time over. Don't lump us all together.

    --
    The Secret of Life: Proteins fold up and bind things.
    1. Re:The Warrior Man by ShamusYoung · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Men are fricking war machines,

      You have nailed it.

      For those that doubt it. Take a peek at nature. I think people would be shocked at just how much of our violent behavior is a result of base, primitive drives that reflect behaviors we see in animals. Even the most timid, rotund little accountant has the genes for skull-splitting combat buried beneath all the layers of civilization.

      Think about the first time your girlfriend was attracted to another guy. How did you feel? Upset that she was so feckless? If you were a teenager, you probably wanted to kick his ass, even though that doesn't make any sense. That's the same wiring used when males needed to compete, via combat, for the right to mate. Now there it is in your 15-year-old civilized brain and you don't know what to do with it.

      You can't educate these drives away, and the next best thing is to find a non-destructive way in which to satisfy those primal urges. Sports are another way to accomplish this.

      We have other base drives, and we (ahem) manage to satisfy those even when we're not in a position to actually mate. Take sports and games out of our lives, and those primal combat drives will still be there, but we will be without the tools to deal with them.

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    2. Re:The Warrior Man by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      My personal poison is Halo, and I've found that during the game I increasingly find myself looking after the welfare of my marine NPCs. I do generally tend to steer away games that are violent for violence sake.

      I've noticed that too. I have no problem playing Halo objective games - I'm only killing them because they're in the way of the flag. I used to have a problem with Slayer; if it's Team Slayer I'm now more or less fine with it (but I'm not good), but if it's free-for-all I don't get the point. I tried playing Quake II once, because I had downloaded it anyway to mess with the modding tools. Something in my system just won't let me shoot something that has recognizably human parts and spews recognizably human gore.

      If it weren't for the MJOLNIR armor, I would be unable to get past that whatever in my brain and keep playing Halo (or alternately, I really wouldn't want to suppress that reaction).

    3. Re:The Warrior Man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think about the first time your girlfriend

      You must be new here.

    4. Re:The Warrior Man by Zibara · · Score: 1

      I used to have a problem with Slayer

      I usually never play Slayer, because I just dont see the point and Free For All slayer tends to have a lot less of the strategy elements involved that Capture the Flag does. I absolutely agree with you about Doom.

    5. Re:The Warrior Man by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      I don't know any "more radical religious element" that even believes in evolution, natural selection or genes, so how can you explain anything to them when the reasoning is based on those scientific principles?

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  3. Most violent book I have ever read by FidelCatsro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You know the most violent book I have ever read.. The Tanakh (What Christians would call the old testament)
    It has sexual assault , Genocide , All forms of Killing , Hell The entire Human race is drowned to death bar 1 family.
    You know what though , it is an enjoyable read , filled with many philosophical and metaphysical thoughts .

    Games .. well they are a lot of fun , a good experience that you can live through , something that would be impossible or out and out idiotic in real life.
    They allow people to de-stress , perhaps live out some primal urges and have a lot of fun. You can even learn things on occasion.
    It's all about how you look at it.

    You could see either as pure blood thirsty pieces .. or perhaps you could look a little deeper , not take them so literally (that one goes out to the Creationists) and just have fun .. and perhaps learn something.

    --
    The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    1. Re:Most violent book I have ever read by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      It includes such gems as a woman driving a tent spike through a guy's temple and into the ground, or a guy stabbing a fat man with a dagger so deep that the fat closed back over the hilt of the weapon so he couldn't get it back out. Surprisingly gory at times.

    2. Re:Most violent book I have ever read by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      You don't read the Bible for the gore, though. A lot of stories are horribly violent, but the point is either (rarely) to scare you away from doing something or (more often) to demonstrate that horrible violence is really horrible. And a couple of times, like in Revelations, it's more poetic.

      A lot of people are interested in video games because of the gore. And I don't mean that you should take out all blood and make everything like Pokemon (where you don't die, you "faint") - it makes sense to include what would realistically happen. But the games where blood spews unreasonably so that viewers laugh, the games where women wear clothing so skimpy you can't explain in context why they're wearing it...there isn't a reason for it. You don't gain anything towards the objective from seeing the women dressed like that or the blood spewing like that. Your interest in the game is as much from the gore or the sensuality as from the goal itself

      That's the difference. The Bible is far less gratuitous. I hesitate to use this term with something I consider a holy book, but the suspension of disbelief is far easier to maintain with the Bible - or with any other scripture, for that matter - than with the equally violent video games.

      The goals are always important in considering the morality of an act. That's why a society can establish monogamy without having to say "all sex is good" or "don't have sex ever". That's why a government can defend its monopoly on force without saying "nobody should ever lose their liberties" or saying "it's okay to kill people". Murder and slavery are immoral - except as punishment by a just government. For a long time, sex was considered immoral - except within the bounds of marriage. Similarly, blood and gore are immoral - unless they're used to instruct instead of to excite.

    3. Re:Most violent book I have ever read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try reading the koran, it makes the Bible look like a looney toon comic.

  4. Re:1up.com again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Occam's Razor , Perhaps Zonk just likes 1up.com and posts stories here that interest him

  5. Picking and choosing... by chriso11 · · Score: 1

    From the article: "Many people seem to have this misconception that somehow Christian means nonviolent.

    However, there was this guy named Jesus who said:
    But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

    And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

    And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

    Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

    Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

    But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    Matthew 5:39-45 (King James Version).

    So, it seems to me that these MOG guys are full of ####.

    --
    No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
    1. Re:Picking and choosing... by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      I think the point is that they can play FPSes and blow their competitors up with rocket launchers repeatedly without actually hating them, because it's all pretend. You know, just like any other normal person can do.

    2. Re:Picking and choosing... by hunterx11 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Too bad Jesus wasn't a Christian.

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      English is easier said than done.
    3. Re:Picking and choosing... by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      And yet the bible says people asked Jesus whether they should then ignore the old testament, and he replied that they must not.

      So how to fix this paradox?

    4. Re:Picking and choosing... by Admiral+Frosty · · Score: 2, Funny

      So your saying Jesus only PvE's?

    5. Re:Picking and choosing... by Mattintosh · · Score: 1

      Well, as a previous poster pointed out, Jesus wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew, and as such, worshipped Jehovah. The Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures (the "old testament") includes the book of Psalms, and if you read Psalm 11:5, you'll find this:

      Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.

      Also take note of 1 Chronicles 22:8. King David wants to build a temple to the name of Jehovah. Here's the response:

      But Jehovah's word came against me, saying, "Blood in great quantity you have spilled, and great wars you have waged. You will not build a house to my name, for a great deal of blood you have spilled on the earth before me."

      That makes it pretty clear where Jehovah (the Almighty God of the Bible) stands on the issue of violence. And it makes clear exactly what Jesus was saying not to ignore. Violence is not acceptable. It can be forgiven, but it can cause you to lose privileges that you might have enjoyed otherwise. And Jesus backed this up in the Greek Scriptures (the "new testament") on the night before his death, when he said, "those who take the sword will perish by the sword."

      This also fits in with the prophecy in Isaiah 2:4, where it says, "they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." (Emphasis mine.)

      So let's recap. No violence. No bloodshed. No learning how to fight or wage war effectively. Then you can meet all the other requirements to be a Christian.

      Or you can opt for the more common course of action and just call yourself a Christian anyway, whether you actually live up to that ideal or not.

    6. Re:Picking and choosing... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      "And yet the bible says people asked Jesus whether they should then ignore the old testament, and he replied that they must not. So how to fix this paradox?"

      Which paradox are you talking about?

      If you look at the bulk of the laws in the Pentateuch, they were given to the Jews/Israelites as part of their "contract" with God.

      I'm not sure whether those laws are to binding to non-jews living out of Israel (still investigating). However, I figure the laws from God are good, so even if they aren't binding, one can learn a fair bit from them. Go look up the Jubilee law. Also see the law where if you enter your neighbours vineyard, you can eat all the grapes you want but not put any in your basket, similarly if you enter your neighbour's grainfield you may pick kernels with your hands but you must not put a sickle to his standing grain.

      Most people just don't actually bother to read and try to understand the Bible (both Christians and nonchristians - check out the skeptics annotated bible for an example of people who go through the bible but totally don't get it, nor even want to[1]).

      Christians also have commandments and teachings from Jesus to follow that are in some ways stricter.

      There are many other things that I haven't totally figured out, but I find it fairly interesting how some of the stuff makes more and more sense after you actually bother doing some investigation or thinking.

      [1] They point out all the incest, murder etc in the bible, proving that they totally miss the point.

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    7. Re:Picking and choosing... by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      But the trouble with your reply and the other posters reply is that you both chose particular bits of the bible to back up your point. What about the parts in the old testament where God kills lots of people, where God asks other people to kill for him, and so on.

      You say that people point out the murder etc in the bible and say they miss the point. You can't just dismiss it, but have to say why you can ignore those parts and only select the parts you want.

    8. Re:Picking and choosing... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Of course there's tons of murder and killing in the bible, no surprise there's tons of bad stuff recorded there - much of it is about history.

      And yeah God does kill people. Why? Well for one I figure he loves some people more than others and plays favourites, and for another it's the way he's chosen to do stuff in this world[1].

      e.g. he picked the Jews to be his chosen people (well, one reason is because of Abraham but I guess there must be other reasons as well). Even today it is obvious to nonbelievers the Jews still have a significant role in this world and its timeline (past, present and future). Tons of Muslims are anti-Jew to the point of near irrationality, which probably sets things up for the stuff mentioned in Revelations.

      [1] If one goes according to popular Christian belief, it seems inevitable to me that billions will end up in hell, unless there's some twist in the final plot. I find the former quite disagreeable myself.

      Believe me, I'm definitely not ignoring the troublesome bits. However, to me there's definitely something to it, it sure doesn't seem like a "bunch of fairy tales or myths".

      So while one shouldn't pick and choose, I think it is even more important that one shouldn't ignore it completely just because of inconvenient/difficult bits, which is what many people are doing nowadays.

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    9. Re:Picking and choosing... by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      It makes you wonder though... What if I don't think there is a God, but I think there is but I disagree with him morally?

    10. Re:Picking and choosing... by vertinox · · Score: 1

      From the article: "Many people seem to have this misconception that somehow Christian means nonviolent.

      However, there was this guy named Jesus who said:
      But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


      Thats nice, but apparently many so called Christians do not live by that code. A true Christian would not seek vengence for any misdeed by another party.

      This would mean murder of a love one, attack by another nation, nor attacking anyone else because you fear them or want their things.

      Even if they steal your holy land... Or drive planes into your buildings.

      A true Christian would say "Such is the will of god. I will forgive them for their sins and I shall be rewarded in the afterlife by the grace of god and my faith no matter what anyone does to me".

      It is not Christian to seek revenge or force others to convert, thus I don't think we have many true Christians amoung us especially those in power.

      Personally, I have found Buddhism to be more compatible with Jesus's teachings than modern day Christian Chruch dogma.

      However, I'm a maltheist singularitan with streaks of Catharism who has feeble attempts at praticing lay Buddhism so you shouldn't take my advice with a grain of salt. You know... Like a Muslim telling a Jew that he isn't praticing Judaism very correctly.

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      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    11. Re:Picking and choosing... by catahoula10 · · Score: 1

      In reply to:
      "personally, I have found Buddhism to be more compatible with Jesus's teachings than modern day Christian Chruch dogma."

      To quote Gandhi:
      "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."


      Many of the poorly run organized religions of today have distorted the message of Jesus. Jesus and his good news was about God's Kingdom, and how we could be part of that kingdom.

      Jesus never once endorced religion, as is proven by his contempt for the religious leaders of that time period.

      I doubt if Jesus would endorce many of the video games we see today either. I think the secular folks are disgusted with some of these games as well.

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      This has been another valuable and informative opinion from:
      Catahoula!
    12. Re:Picking and choosing... by catahoula10 · · Score: 1

      "I'm not sure whether those laws are to binding to non-jews living out of Israel (still investigating)."

      The "contract" (called a covenant) that God made with Abraham is clear. The Jewish people will be used so that all the nations will be saved.

      All nations = all people.

      "You will become the father of many nations. So your name will no longer be Abram [Exalted Father], but Abraham [Father of Many] because I have made you a father of many nations. I will give you many descendants. Many nations and kings will come from you."Genesis 17

      --
      This has been another valuable and informative opinion from:
      Catahoula!
    13. Re:Picking and choosing... by catahoula10 · · Score: 1

      There were clear reasons in the bible as to why God told the isreal to kill or wipe out an entire town. In one case, the cannaites used their children as human sacrifices to false gods made of pieces of wood and stone. They cut the children up and used the blood. So they got wiped out. And rightly so. But the violence in games and movies are gratuitous violence. There is no comparison.

      --
      This has been another valuable and informative opinion from:
      Catahoula!
    14. Re:Picking and choosing... by FidelCatsro · · Score: 1

      The only rules that apply to non Jew's throughout the Tanakh are the Noahidie laws

      Avodah zarah - No idol worship / false gods (It is arguable as to what defines a false g-d .. or is it just the cultures interpretation of Adonai )
      Shefichat damim - don't kill people (unless in self defence)
      Gezel - Do not steal
      Gilui arayot - No sexual immorality (defined by the culture if you go with Liberal/reform Judaism .. or fairly strict one husband one wife by Orthodox standards)
      Birkat Hashem -Don' blaspheme ( against your own beliefs or the beliefs of others)
      Ever min ha-chai - Do not munch down on a living animal
      Dinim - Be fair and just ,have fair laws and a fair court .
      Interpretations vary

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    15. Re:Picking and choosing... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Yeah. It does make one wonder. I have been struggling with a few things myself.

      That said, I personally think things aren't as simple as the fundamentalists (whether christians or atheists ;) ) believe, so I shouldn't wish to make any premature conclusions.

      For example, the first miracle Jesus did was to turn water into wine.

      The "obvious"/"efficient" thing would have been to just create wine from nothing (those "creationists" might like that sort of thing, heh).

      But, no as pointed out by someone recently, he asks some servants to get stone jars, and to fill them with water. Only then does he turn the water in the jars to wine (good wine too reportedly[1]).

      Same for the feeding of the thousands. He gets someone to donate fish and bread first[2].

      Why all that? And why be born as a baby? It seems that God really wants to work with us and through us. Strange, but I'm currently guessing that sort of thing might help explain why the world is the way it is.

      And because of those incidents many of us will remember the servants who filled up the jars, and the boy with five barley loaves and two small fish.

      [1] I do wonder how good the wine was ;).

      [2] I also wonder if the thousands ended up with only fish and bread. e.g. it would have been "required" for someone to donate something else for there to be more than just fish and bread.

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    16. Re:Picking and choosing... by ChristopherE · · Score: 1
      A true Christian would say "Such is the will of god. I will forgive them for their sins and I shall be rewarded in the afterlife by the grace of god and my faith no matter what anyone does to me".

      I have to disagree, an informed Christian would not say "Such is the will of god" about anything evil that happens. Christians believe God allows bad things but it is never his will that they happen. Evil is an unfortunate result of when man uses his free will in rebellion against God's perfect Will.

    17. Re:Picking and choosing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is an empirical fact (one with which even Christians agree) a troll?

  6. This reminds of a time in WoW... by wilgibson · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was doing one of The Barrens instances and we kept wiping. This mage would always say it was Gods will for us to have to start over, so we would learn. In all actuallity he was trying to tank. We booted him and got another mage, finshing it no problem.

    Now that I think of it, God was trying to teach a lesson. Not to me or the others in the party, just that mage. And the message was "That's nice, LEARN 2 PLAY!"

  7. Sort of off-topic, but... by Xeirxes · · Score: 1

    So what about the famous fifth commandment, the one that says, "Thou shall not kill?" -FTA The fifth commandment actually is the one that says "Honor your father and mother."