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Doctors Claim Suspended Animation Success
Philoneist.com writes to tell us the Sydney Morning Herald is reporting that US doctors have developed a process to induce hypothermia in trauma patients, shutting down their bodily functions for up to three hours. The process has been proven about 90% effective in trials with pigs and now the doctors would like the go ahead to test it on humans who would "probably die" under normal care.
Surely if your heart is stopped and your brain dead then your soul leaves your body and you go to heaven (or hell) depending on how good you lived your life.
I expect that it only works on pigs, because they are dirty animals and don't have a soul.
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Well, it is not quite suspended animation as the subjects have been cooled to about 10C (50F), so some biological processes do indeed still occur. However, it is below the temperature for most coherent biological processes to continue to function. Furthermore, it has been known for some time that with certain traumas involving CNS or CNS function, cooling has been an effective means of controlling continued damage related to the CNS. For instance, in many CNS traumas such as stroke (ischemic or haemorrhagic), there are cascade reactions that follow the initial insult. These cascades involve Ca+2 mediated events that often result in or are the result of cellular apoptotic pathways being induced which causes further damage. Cooling of the body in a trauma unit tends to limit such damage for reasons that are not completely understood at the basic science level and the free radicals discussed in the article are not the only possibility for damage as there are many protein pumps whose physiology is dramatically altered by temperature and pH changes.
It's too bad that the NIH budget was cut this year (effectively below the rate of inflation) by the Whitehouse and further cut by Congress who, while managing to take care of their own salaries before going on vacation, could not work in the NIH budget to their schedule. As a result, many labs here in the US this year have had to slash this years budget by 12-20% which has a dramatic effect on the success of bioscience research such as this suspended animation work.
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I have ten peoplethat I'd like to nominate for clinical trials!
"Brain death occurs in 4-5 minutes Brain can survive for 90-120 minutes"
If they can get past this, they may be on to something here- shame research funding for this was cut.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
I wonder how many times you can undergo this treatment and still be fine. Perhaps one could undergo it several times a night thus lenghtening the time you could potentially live by maybe 30 or 40%. I for one would welcome our new 160 year old overlords.
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
Too bad they couldn't figure out a way to do it safely yet, we could use for manned long-duration space travel or just to stick around and get defrosted, Futurama-style.
I wonder how the world will look like in, say, 100 years, but do have the patience (or the stamina) to wait. Maybe Bin Laden will finally have been caught? Maybe Brazil becomes the next world superpower? Who knows?
Memorable Quotes from ... he said it wasn't such a good day to die.
Flatliners (1990)
Nelson Wright: Hello, I'm nice, he's nice, we're both fucking lunatics. Can I come in, please?
David Labraccio: He said
Nelson Wright: Thank you.
Nelson Wright: Today is a good day to die
Nelson Wright: You bring the equipment, I'll bring my balls.
Joe Hurley: I don't know. Not thinking about the past or the future. I don't know it's difficult to explain, maybe impossible.
David Labraccio: Yeah, dying is quite that way.
Randy Steckle: I did not come to medical school to murder my class mates no matter how deranged they might be.
Nelson Wright: Everything matters, everything we do matters.
Nelson Wright: Somehow we've brought our sins back physically. And they're pissed.
Randy Steckle: Good thing I didn't flatline. My 350-pound babysitter would be chasing me for the half-eaten pastrami sandwich I stole from her.
Nelson Wright: C'mon, Billy Mahoney. C'mon... Gimme your best shot. I dare ya. I fuckin' dare ya.
Nelson Wright: Wake up you little shit, you got company!
Rachel: See you soon.
Nelson Wright: Philosophy failed. Religion failed. Now it's time for medical science to try.
David Labraccio: You should have told us, Nelson.
Nelson Wright: You wouldn't have done it.
David Labraccio: At least we would've had a choice!!!
David Labraccio: [screaming at a religious stained-glass portrait] I'm sorry.. we *trespassed* on your... *fucking* territory. God! I'm *sorry*!
7h3$3 4r3n'7 7h3 Ðr01Ð$ ¥0 4r3 £00|{1n9 f0r. M0v3 4£0n9. --OB1
I will send them a copy of Dean R Koontz "Hideaway" as a congratulatory gift. :)
Ceterum censeo Microsoftem esse delendam
I wonder how this new technique might improve the own of saving the brain from destruction after an heart attack, as if now it could be safe to get the body much cooler for much more improvement.
You just got troll'd!
A story is posted on Slashdot (US)
Of the Sydney Morning Herald (Australia)
Reporting a story in the New Scientist (England)
Of a bunch of scientists at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston (US)
Can we add a few more levels of indirection here??
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
90% on pigs, that could be 80% on humans, maybe not. but still, 90% is not the very best...I think they should first work a little more on it then ask us humans.
The purpose of their proposed clinical trials is to give patients who will almost surely die with conventional methods some limited hope with this "experiment". Yes, perhaps it only has a 90% success rate, but modern medicine has no effective techniques to handle catastrophic blood loss, such as in car accidents and other traumas.
The purpose of asking for these medical trials is to bring the chance of survival up from maybe 5% with conventional techniques to something higher.
I'm sifting through all of the Google hits from my search terms now.
.. 'Er, why do you want to eat my brains?'
This is interesting, but not quite new. I remember hearing about Soviet surgeons cooling down and effectively shutting down patients' bodies to perform open heart surgery without having to use a heart lung machine. (which were very hard to come by in the Soviet Union)
One of the shows creators revealed in some TV guide or other that had the show got an extra series or two, it would have been revealed that John was in fact the result of an experiment by a mysterious group to gain all the knowledge of the universe. They believed that such knowledge was revealed at the moment of death, hence John was killed and brought back again. But the series got axed before any of that could really be explored.
I'll start a company that will freeze people and keep them in safe storage for a defined period of time for a maintenance fee. People could keep money in their savings account and freeze themselves for 10 or 100 years, and wake up to collect their money. It'd feel like a long nights sleep and winning the lottery afterwards.
:)
But they'll have to make sure the money is in the right place, with enough interest to pull them ahead of the rest of the country/world, else its all in vain. Therefore we provide long-term financial services too.
I suggest customers buy lots of real-estate around cities with major natural resources and good weather. Hopefully they wont wake right after WWIII to realize their lands cost nothing.
Invesing in gold is not a bad idea either for the long term.
My freezer can take 2 persons. Who wants to be first??
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
That's why we put their brains in little jars and throw away the bodies. Much more compact. Create a nice VR world and give all the brains WiFi access and you're set.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
"Doctors from 1742 Claim Suspended Animation Success"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If there's a risk of you dying, you expect, even require, the doctors to do whatever they think will give you the best chance. So I would have no problem with this being the default for people whose chance of surviving without it is sufficiently low.
I am trolling
What if going into suspended animation for short and/or extended periods became common practice for everyone (or maybe only the elite)? Assuming that the process was safe, reliable and inexpensive? Imagine if you could skip winter every year, or sit out an unfavorable situation until enough time has passed that things would be different when you woke up?
it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
If I remember my intro biology correctly they are inducing a state where the mitochondria are the only cells in the body producing any ATP. This has been seen before in people that have been chilled quickly by falling in an icy river for instance. All body functions cease but the mitochondria make enough energy to keep everything alive.
Should we suppose that the remaining 10% died a horrible, cold death?
Even assuming the article weren't talking about terminal patients, death from hypothermia is one of the least horrible ways to go. Your higher brain functions stop working, you become very calm and stop feeling cold, and then you go to sleep.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
Just open browser preferences and check "Disable GIF animation".
does the subject retain memory, cognitive skills and motor skills after this induced hypothermia? maybe someone with access to the new scientist article could respond. people would fear this mode of treatment as much as chemical anaesthesia if these are not analyzed in their entirety.
I can vouch for this experience 100%. After a long, cold and very wet route march across the South Downs (a particular Brit Army training exercise), I plonked myself down in a window seat on the bus to take us back to barracks and passed out from exhaustion. Some moron opened that window while I was sleeping with the result that I experienced 50mph windchill for the next two hours in wet clothing while completely immobile - no need for snow or 30 below zero weather.
When we go to the other end, I vaguely remember feeling warm and comfortable but strangely unable to move. I also remember being surrounded by clearly panicking instructors who were bellowing at me not to go to sleep while they manhandled me to the hospital. It was very surreal - like you're watching yourself from outside with a mixture of detachment and fascination. Mountaineering tales I've read describe the same thing: a sort of pleasant warmth even while you're looking at your frostbitten fingers and a very strong desire to take a "short nap."
Death by freezing would have felt pleasant I'm sure. On the other hand, being warmed up slowly was the worst experience I've ever had bar none because then you start feeling how cold you really are - and the feeling continues for days. I can't remember what my core temperature had dropped to but it was dangerously low.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
Yep, that's almost exactly how it was for me. The main difference was that I knew I would die if I fell asleep. That was a surreal experience, going to sleep and not expecting to wake up.
I only had frost nip in one of my toes, but the sensitivity-to-cold thing was definitely a hassle. I think it was at least a week before my sense of temperature was back to normal.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
This concept is not relatively new. Randomized clinical trials, involving trying to protect the brain, in surgeries like CABG (Coronary artery bypass graft) are taking place for more than 10 years now. 5 years ago, a review of many such trials found that though stroke related deaths decreased by inducing hypothermia, they faced other non-stroke related mortality in operations and overall there was no difference between hypothermia and normothermia.
However, there is some evidence of benefit in non traumatic head injuries (eg post cardiac arrest) where cooling does provide improved neurological outcomes.
Hypothermic circulatory arrest is used routinely for certain types of aortic arch surgey where it would be difficult to maintain cerebral circulation (eg for aortic arch dissection) using conventional techniques.
If you cool someone down to something in the range of 15-24 degrees you can get 20-40 minutes of cardiac arrest without major consequence.
The articles seem to present this as something new - its really more an extension of a known technology into trauma surgery.
I suspect that the biggest problem with this level of extreme hypothermia is that blood coagulation essentially fails at these temperatures - so in the case of trauma, they are going to have to sow everything up and even then nothing will seal over - which leads to the need for massive transfusion requirements as everthing bruises up extremely badly. Massive transfusions (> 10 units of blood) are likely in themselves to cause multi organ failure, and a downward spiral of death.
This is just a technical hurdle to be overcome, but at the moment the odds of surviving this will be very low - so low that I don't think you would do it for anyone who has even a slight chance of surviving the injuries by conventional measures.
My 2c worth
Michael
There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.