Cutting Through The Next-Gen BS

ConfusedFX wrote to mention a great feature at GameDaily that is trying to cut through marketing BS and get to the truth behind the upcoming next-gen systems. From a piece on the Revolution's street-date: "Now Nintendo is saying that a near final version of the Revolution will be on display and working at E3 2006. If the company expects to release in the US before Thanksgiving then it has to have a working model at E3, but exactly what does that mean for attendees of the annual expo? We expect to see Zelda: Twilight Princess running on Revolution with the new features discussed a couple weeks ago, and maybe Smash Brothers and a Mario title with a couple of little mini-games like we saw at the Tokyo Game Show. We may also see a handful of classic Nintendo titles to promote the Revolution download service Nintendo has vaguely discussed in the past. If we can play Smash, Mario and some Nintendo classics on the show floor we'll be happy Nintendo. Don't let us down!"

Comments

Nintendo Won't Disappoint

[creepynut]

They've intentionally built up a lot of hype with the Revolution, especially with the controller. They've got us right where they want us, they won't be letting us down.

Re:Nintendo Won't Disappoint

[Meagermanx]

What are you talking about? They haven't built anything up. All they've done is deny anything anybody suggests, asks, or speculates about their console.
We've built up the hype all by ourselves.

Re:Nintendo Won't Disappoint

[creepynut]

They've been releasing tiny bits and pieces of information about the system at a time, making everyone wonder how or what they're doing.

For example, the controller, it's been months, and still everyone is just itching to see how it will work, some real world examples. People want to know how the classic gaming service will work, people want to know it all.

Sony and Microsoft on the otherhand said "We'll be making a new system" and at E3 last year, they just let loose. Nintendo is teasing us, making us wait, making us curious.

Re:Nintendo Won't Disappoint

[Knuckles]

They haven't built anything up

I guess you haven't seen the Tokio Gameshow teaser video?

The new controller

[mwvdlee]

So, how is Zelda, Mario or Smash bros. going to really utilize the new controller?

I'd prefer to see some inovative title that demonstrates exactly why anybody would actually want the new controller.

As of yet I have seen no type of game which could not have been made without the new controller... hoping Nintendo will deliver on this.

Re:The new controller

[PhoenixFlare]

So, how is Zelda, Mario or Smash bros. going to really utilize the new controller?

Personally, at least as far as Smash Bros. goes, I think the innovation will be more that of using the online functions rather than the new controller - barring some masterpiece of design that my puny brain can't comprehend, I can't see a game like SSB being all that playable without a more traditional controller.

At the very least, I imagine it'll use one of the rumored "shells" to allow the traditional controls while still incorporating the movement aspect somehow.

As of yet I have seen no type of game which could not have been made without the new controller... hoping Nintendo will deliver on this.

A Mario Paint-esque title would be perfect for the new controller, for one.

Re:The new controller

[apparently]

As of yet I have seen no type of game which could not have been made without the new controller...
Use your imagination.
You have a controller in your hand, and the game system knows where in space it is. Now expand on that idea:
You strap a sensor to your body (head, legs, etc); The game system now knows where in space your body is.
- You can be holding a gun, and the system will be able to detect your every duck, leap, and dodge.
- You can be holding a controller in each hand, and the system will allow you to box and dodge an opponent with ease.
- ???
Use your imagination.

Re:The new controller

[Metasquares]

The Zelda game is for the Gamecube, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't use the controller at all.

Re:The new controller

[SetupWeasel]

As of yet I have seen no type of game which could not have been made without the new controller.

Don't think of it like that. There isn't any game that couldn't be emulated on another system to some extent. DS games could be played with a mouse on a PC, but the lack of direct input would hinder your performance.

Think instead of how the controller will help existing games. Imagine a Pilotwings where you hold the controller like apaper airplane instead of using clunky analog sticks. Imagine a Mario Kart where you hold the controller by the ends and turn your hands to steer. Imagine a Madden game where you can simply point to the open reciever, a FIFA game where you can aim a shot by pointing to a location on the screen as if it were the goal (flick the controler to give it a little english), or an NHL game where you can reliably pass to the right wing from the left wing, because you can point to the player you want and not rely on a clunky analog stick passing system. Hell, imagine how much easier menu navigation in RPGs will be.

Think of what you wanted to do when you first picked up a controller. Ever point at the TV? Shoot that guy! Him! Right there! Now you can and it will count. Ever try to dodge a punch by wrenching your controller to the side? Now you can and it will count.

In my mind the Revolution controller is about making games easier to while actually increasing gameplay depth. Again think of Madden. Easy mode - Point somewhere and throw to the nearest reciever. Expert mode - Where you point is where you throw. That has been attempted before. Remember John Elway's Quarterback in the 8-Bit era? Now, however, you have a quick and accurate control system to make it work.

There will be games that will be new, but they won't be new because they couldn't have been done before. They will be new, because they couldn't have been done well before.

Think of the Revolution controller that way and you might get as excited as I am about it.

Re:The new controller

[Zangief]

The same way they did it with the N64 almost a decade ago? Mario 64 was ahead everything else in the field, and many people swear that OoT is the best game evarz.

You know, the industry didn't start with 3D graphics.

Re:The new controller

[bigman2003]

When I go to the arcade, I like that game where you shoot japanese gangsters, then you duck behind cars, tables, etc. etc.

I even like to play DDR at home.

But my lazy ass would rather sit in a chair, and move my thumbs, than jump around my living room kicking the crap about of some girl with big tits. Whoops...this is Nintendo, I mean Princess Peach.

The idea is cool, but it does not appeal to me as anything more than a novelty.

Re:The new controller

[Merle Darling]

Screw SSB on the Rev. Give me a version for the DS with download play that I can use NOW, anywhere I want. It wouldn't even have to use WFC, although that would be nice if lag weren't so painful.

Ok, fine, don't screw it just yet. Every means I can think of for controlling the character in SSB would be gimmicky and cumbersome unless you're using motion to handle weapons. It might be interesting to control Sheik's chain with a motion-sensitive controller though, maybe if all the characters in a new version had swinging weapons or ... blah. It's stupid, never mind. I'm sure Nintendo has more inventive and experienced minds than mine to figure this crap out.

Zelda's easy. Hook up the nunchaku to handle movement and use the motion-sensitive end like a sword. A rumble function could be used to show when you parry an attack or have one of yours parried. Use a weaker rumble to show when you hit, a stronger one to show when you are hit. Aiming attacks and parries adds a lot to combat. I did something similar with the melee combat system in Custom TF back when I used to do Quake modding and it was pretty popular.

I have no idea about Mario, I couldn't stand playing the 3D versions long enough to remember the controls after so many years.

Re:The new controller

[justchris]

Has it occurred to you that that's not the point?

The point of the revolution controller is basically to be as transparent as possible. At it's most fundamental, a controller is nothing more than an abstraction. Have you ever actually looked at the manuals that come with a current gen game? I've been playing games for over 20 years now, I know console controllers backwards and forwards, and I still can't really make heads or tails of the controls looking at the manual. Even a simple game like Dynasty Warriors has far too many controls for me to intellectualize just by reading them. But since I'm so familiar with the existing control interface, once I pick up the controller and actually press the buttons, I have no problem. Unfortunately, not everyone has 20 years of experience with this interface and can just pick it up like that.

However, every single person on the planet knows how to move their hands, wrists and arms. By the age of 5 we're doing fairly complex actions with our hands without even thinking about it. The point of the revolution is to simplify controls to the extent that they're so intuitive you don't even need to think about it. It's no longer a matter of, 'press this button, then this button, wait 2 seconds, then press this button', but a matter of, 'move left, move right, wait for opponent to stand, move up and pull back real quick'. No human being is going to have a problem with the second one, we do the same thing every day. There are about 3 billion human beings who would look at the first one, try it out once, and then never go back because it just doesn't make any natural sense.

Re:The new controller

[mwvdlee]

'move left, move right, wait for opponent to stand, move up and pull back real quick'

Because you can't do any of this with an analog stick or perhaps even a D-pad?

A lot of the ideas posted as reactions to my original post require incredible accuracy from the controller. Not knowing the technology that the controlers use, it's quite hard to estimate how precise the measurements will be, but taking into consideration the current state of similar technology, it's hard to believe it will be precise enough to do anything more than basic motion detection.

Anyway, the point of the post was not to trash the controller, in fact I think it'll be fun, but just that I have yet to see any game idea that will only be practical by using such a controller. The DS has some games which wouldn't be playable without a touchscreen, but I don't think Nintendo has announced anything analogue for the Revolution.

Ignore the marketing...

[scolby]

...and wait until you've actually tried all three systems. That's the only way to know for sure which ones are any good.

Re:Ignore the marketing...

[oh_bugger]

Perhams something is needed to help people see the truth. Games marketing, just like most marketing has become a matter of hyping up every aspect of the game/system. Whenever a new console comes out it's the one that's supposed to kill all other systems, and whenever a new game is out it's supposed to be the last game you'll ever need. So the best way to know if hype is BS or not is to actually try out the thing in question

Twilight Princess on Revolution

[Yrd]

Weren't those rumours about extra features when running Twilight Princess on the Revolution debunked fairly rapidly by Nintendo?

Re:Twilight Princess on Revolution

[ElleyKitten]

As far as I've heard, it's still going to be on Gamecube, but since the Revolution is backwards compatible, it will probably take advantage of the Revolution controller as well. Kinda like how the Gameboy Zelda's came out for the previous Gameboy, but if you put them in the newer gameboy, they had extra shit, like one had a extra dungeon? I'm thinking it's a simular concept, where it's made for the previous system, but designed to still be cool when put in the new system.

http://www.4colorrebellion.com/archives/2005/12/22 /play-twlight-princess-with-revolution-controller/

Re:Twilight Princess on Revolution

[Rameriez]

NGC, one of Future Publishing's UK games magazines, claimed they had definitive proof from an inside source that the next Zelda would make use of the Revolution controller. Nintendo made a statement in response saying NGC's article was "pure speculation" (Eurogamer article).

When GameDaily's article says we should "... expect to see Zelda: Twilight Princess running on Revolution with the new features discussed a couple weeks ago...", they might as well claim that we should expect to see every other rumour and piece of speculation come true too.

I for one am looking forward to seeing Link ride into town in his new monster truck, weilding an AK47 and smoking a phat spliff.

Re:Twilight Princess on Revolution

[Yrd]

Yes, that's what I thought Nintendo had debunked. Given how the Revolution controller works, it did seem unlikely to me in the first place. How would they do it without diminishing the GameCube play experience?

Re:Twilight Princess on Revolution

[Guppy06]

"it will probably take advantage of the Revolution controller as well."

Quoth the parent:

"Weren't those rumours about extra features when running Twilight Princess on the Revolution debunked fairly rapidly by Nintendo?"

"Kinda like how the Gameboy Zelda's came out for the previous Gameboy, but if you put them in the newer gameboy, they had extra shit, like one had a extra dungeon?"

They re-released the game as Zelda: Link's Awakening DX (the original was four-color no matter what you played it on). It had separate content for the GBC, yes, but all backwards-compatible GBC games had separate content for the GBC. That's how the carts were made: a separate four-color and GBC game on a single cartridge, so it was all too easy to include separate content for one and not the other. The "separate games on a single cart" design is one of the reasons why the GBC/GBA/SP/micro/etc. aren't backwards-compatible with the Super Game Boy; the SGB code was in the wrong game, the one not played by GBC harware.

Now, if you're going to claim they'll stamp both a GCN and a REV version of Twilight Princess onto the same disk, that... well, it can go into the list of unfounded rumors the parent was asking about and you were repeating.

Other than that, the Zelda: Oracle games had maybe one extra item store each when the game was played on a GBA, but that's about it.

"I'm thinking it's a simular concept, where it's made for the previous system, but designed to still be cool when put in the new system."

I can't think of one other than the specially-made GBC games you mentioned. No new content on Sega Master System games played on a Genesis, no new content on PlayStation games played on a PlayStation 2, haven't heard much about extra content in Xbox games played on an Xbox 360, etc.

Both the DMG/GBC and GBC/GBA switching is only possible because of a peculiarity in the Game Boy's softare validation, confirming a particular image file held on the cart (the "Nintendo" that shows up when you boot the game with a valid card). Tweaks to the image file help confirm to hardware and software what kind of hardware and software are being used, and I can't think of another console that has such self-awareness needed to run unique code. Does a PlayStation game know it's being played on a PlayStation 2 or a PlayStation 3?

Re:Twilight Princess on Revolution

[DahCheet]

I can't think of one other than the specially-made GBC games you mentioned. No new content on Sega Master System games played on a Genesis, no new content on PlayStation games played on a PlayStation 2, haven't heard much about extra content in Xbox games played on an Xbox 360, etc.

I know it's not much, but Halo 2 for xBox was designed with the 360 in mind. The 360 can handle all the graphics they originally put into Halo 2 and can display them without flaw. That can be said about a lot of games though.

I must agree though that I cannot think of any game that has extra content when used on a newer system.

I hope Twilight Princess stays on GC because I have it reserved already. I don't want to have to reserve a revolution too, although I'm sure I will.

Next-Gen BS

[plaisted]

Penny Arcade's take on the Next-Gen BS:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/01/20

Don't take this post too seriously but...

[Headcase88]

"[at E3] We expect to see Zelda: Twilight Princess running on Revolution with the new features discussed a couple weeks ago, and maybe Smash Brothers and a Mario title with a couple of little mini-games... If we can play Smash, Mario and some Nintendo classics on the show floor we'll be happy Nintendo. Don't let us down!"

Screw you journalists. All I or most of us care about is when the gaming public gets to play it. "Make sure you have lots of games ready for our elitist expo, Nintendo, we want to play as many games as we can before most people get to". Bah.

(But man, I can't wait for those Smash Bros videos!)

Oh, and another thing, what's the deal with all the (true?) rumours about the GC version of Twilight Princess using the Revo controller? That's not the Nintendo way! Nintendo would release the GC version with no compatibility, and then half way through the Revo's life, they'd package Twilight Princess with pre-orders to the next Zelda game, now with Revo controller functionality(!)

Or... after sending the proof of purchase of 5 Revo games, after a convoluted process you can get Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and maybe some N64 Zelda games (though you can get those through the web portal) with brand new Revo controller functionality(!)

That's the Nintendo way! Why give that sweet, sweet Revo functionality for free when you can force purchase of the next Zelda game or put people through a time-consuming mail-in process :P

Re:Don't take this post too seriously but...

[MBCook]

That is Nintendo's way. If you remember Zelda: Oracle of Ages and Zelda: Oracle of Seasons for the GBC, if you put them into the GBA (which was out or very close to out at that time) you could get access to a special store that was closed when you played with a GBC. They've done stuff like that a few times now.

Re:Don't take this post too seriously but...

[edwdig]

The Zelda Oracle games launched for the GameBoy Color on the same day the GameBoy Advance was released. Those games had extra features if you used them on a GBA. I wouldn't be too surprised if Twilight Princess did have some bonuses for the Revolution, but I really wouldn't expect it to work with the new controller. It's just too different. I can't see them taking the time to support two completely different interfaces, particuarlly this late in development.

Now if this was Capcom... hey, maybe we'll get another Resident Evil remake with support for the new controller. they had the PS1 original, PS1 remake with dual shock support, GameCube remake, and they are remaking for the DS with touch screen support. On the bright side, maybe we'd finally get a version of the original Resident Evil with decent controls.

BS

[green pizza]

I hear Duke Nukem Forever is going to run on the Mac.

How well does BS cut through BS anyway?

[ivan256]

Clearly we should take the speculation of this gamer rag over the comments from industry executives he quotes.

Wait, why should we do that? I think this guy is full of shit.

It's very unlikely that an $1800 Blu-Ray player would stand up to a $500 (estimate) PS3

It's very unlikely that the kind of people who would by a $1800 video player would find a gaming console an acceptable substitute. And talk about speculative BS... $500 estimate for the PS3? Yeah, right. At the very least it's pure speculation.

The Cell chip manufacturing ramp up has not yet begun

Says who?

If the company expects to release in the US before Thanksgiving then it has to have a working model at E3

Nintendo could show a slideshow at E3 if they wanted. They've done it before.

It would greatly benefit Nintendo to release before the PlayStation 3 in the US, but we really don't see that happening unless Sony has some sort of manufacturing mishap with the Cell chip.

Wait, first you say that it's unlikely we'll be seeing a signifigant number of PS3s this year because Sony hasn't started manufactuing yet, and now you're saying it's unlikely Nintendo will beat the PS3 to market? I don't know which one of those statements is wrong, but they certainly can't both be right at the same time.

Does this guy have an editor?

However, while we do expect Nintendo to ship more Revolution consoles within the launch window than the number of Xbox 360 consoles Microsoft was able to ship, we don't expect Nintendo's console to outperform the Xbox 360 launch.

Ok, here's the last straw. The VirtualBoy outsold the 360 at launch. It's not hard to have a better launch than a console that only ships 500,000 units. If Microsoft had produced enough 360s, then Nintendo would have had some competition in the "best launch" category, but the only way the Revolution isn't having a better launch than the 360 is if Nintendo throws in the towel and exists the marketplace after only making 400,000 consoles. Fat chance. It's not that hard to compete with the launch of a console you couldn't buy at launch.

Re:How well does BS cut through BS anyway?

[justchris]

Because Nintendo has never launched with less than 500,00 consoles? I'm not saying they may not randomly screw it up with the Rev and under manufacture it or something, I'm just saying they've never done anything quite so stupid before, so I wouldn't expect them to start now.

2 Questions for the Revolution

[Nutrimentia]

1) Is it going to be region coded such that if I buy my console in Japan, I won't be able to play US-released games? I hate having to import my consoles back to Japan just to play games in my native language.

2) In spite of Nintendo's "bad' reputation as a kids' console, I'm excited about the potential for the new controller and gaming with my 3 year old. What kind of games are on the horizon here.

3) I know I said 2 questions, but I have one more: Is there a reliable site where I can get common sense news without a lot of hype, hyperbole, and marketing schmooze? I don't have time to sift the chaff and just want to know some fundamental aspects of the new system.

Re:2 Questions for the Revolution

[SetupWeasel]

1) Probably. The publishers like it.

2) They won't tip their hand until E3 probably, but you can expect the classic franchises will be represented.

3) No. But I'll help.

Stuff about the Revolution we know:

System: Plays Revolution games and GameCube games natively. It's about the size of 3 DVD cases stacked together. Slot loader acceps both types of discs. No hard drive, but has 512 MB of flash memory with the option to use SD cards for aditional storage. It will be fully compatible with GameCube controllers and memory cards. It will be Wi-Fi ready out of the box, and will use the Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection service. The Revolution will play DVD movies with an attachment. CPU will be made by IBM. GPU will be made by ATI.

Media: DVD

Output: 480p is the highest confirmed so far.

Controller: Wireless. Rev supports up to 4 at once. Sensor mounted on top of TV can detect location, motion, and controller orientation. Tech demos have shown that the controller can be used as a pointer using this system (directly, a la light gun, some calibration will likely be necessary). The main "freehand" controller has an expansion port. This will definately be used to add an aditional analog stick and extra buttons ("Nunchuck" configuration). Traditional-style controller "shells" that the controller can plug into have been mentioned by Nintendo themselves. Much else is possible, but nothing else has been announced.

Price: Under $300 for system.

Launch: Before Thanksgiving.

Games: Only revolution games currently announced: New Mario Platformer (duh), Metroid Prime 3, Online Super Smash Brothers, New Zelda (again, duh). Nothing other than we know they are working on them is known. Also, Nintendo is calling the Revolution a "virtual console" and has said that their back catalog of classic games (NES, SNES, N64) will be available for download through the Wi-Fi service. No word on pricing or how that will work yet.

That should bring you about up to speed. Anyone want to add anything?

Re:2 Questions for the Revolution

[Nutrimentia]

Thanks for this info. I had no idea it was going to be that small. Shame about the region encoding though. That shit needs to die.

Re:The author of the article was not payed by M$

[ConfusedFX]

The article talks about systems that haven't, you know, been released yet. Maybe you should actually READ it.

Oh yeah, this is as unbiased as it gets

[AzraelKans]

Cutting through the bullshit? but Nintendo will save the day? you do realize thats an oxymoron dont you?

Do you know whats the only next gen company that has not shown not a single demo, screen or video of their next console? thats right! Nintendo! the teaser video we all saw with the revolution controller is 100% fictional or just theoretical none of it is based in real gameplay! (look it up if you dont believe it) that video is 100% make up bullshit!

What companies have been feeding us with Bullshit hype on their next gen consoles? answer: ALL OF THEM! Sony trying to pass cinematics and real time demos AS playable games ? Bullshit. Ms HD-era hype shotly followed "hey this looks just like an xbox!?" Bullshit.

Nintendo controller teaser video? (BTW Actual REVIEWS of the prototype controller performance were not so positive IGN, EGM reported hand strain, wrist pain and slight loss of tracking ,then carefully slipt those reports under the carpet!) bullshit!

Come on guys lets TRY at least to keep slashdot as an unbiased source for info? heres a clue about next gen company hype: it's all full of shit!

Number 1 rule of gaming and entertainment:

Never mind previews, mind the reviews and the people craving for the creators blood!

Re:Oh yeah, this is as unbiased as it gets

[catprog]

If you been following you would know that they have done a demo
http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/15/commentary/game_ov er/column_gaming/
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/15/ 1851233

Re:Oh yeah, this is as unbiased as it gets

[AzraelKans]

Yeah, IGN (ok they are crap) and EGM did a "hands on" too, their comments were "my fucking hand almost went numb after a few minutes of play!" and "the prototype slightly missed the controller in some demos! you need to move your hand slower or it wont track it!" try to find those articles now. Ask around, those were the first comments on the revolution controller demos (I have been following the history since 1up tried to guess what the controller was like and missed by a mile)

BTW CNN is not a reliavable source of gaming info (or just about any info) they are the ones who pass off Jack Thompson comments as "insider info" and did a whole season on videogames as "Murder Trainers".

Re:Oh yeah, this is as unbiased as it gets

[catprog]

IGN: http://cube.ign.com/articles/651/651275p1.html