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Why Google in China Makes Sense
ctd writes "The BBC is carrying an interesting article about the positive outcomes from Google's censorship of its China site." From the article: "Millions of people may now be turning away from Google in disgust, but I've just reinstated them as the default search for my Firefox toolbar, because I think it should be supported for its brave decision. Even if the primary motivation for going into China is that it makes commercial sense for the company - as indeed it must do, since US law is quite harsh on boards that take actions which could damage shareholder value - it also makes political sense. "
since US law is quite harsh on boards that take actions which could damage shareholder value - it also makes political sense.
Shareholder's wealth is more important than human rights? I hope the author feels the same way when China is rounding up "bad thinkers" who search for the wrong things from within China. It's just a matter of time... but at least the shareholders will be happy.
Trolling is a art,
There are reasons to justify Google's involvement in China, but nothing would make it a "brave" one.
What they did is to cave in to the Chinese govt.'s pressure and although that has positive aspects, like still being accessible for chinese people, the censorship still exist and that cannot be called as a brave decision.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Why'd you remove Google as your default search function? And then again why were you swayed by something that is only speculation to put it back, if you feel strongly enough about it to have removed it in the first place?
-JesseNothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
as indeed it must do, since US law is quite harsh on boards that take actions which could damage shareholder value - it also makes political sense I belive google's board is somewhat protected from this, based on their bylaws.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Example: A search for falun gong on google brings up pro-government propaganda. Dissenting views are blocked.
.. not "give us a list of sites you want censored". Users who serach for a keyword should get no results and a notice saying "sorry your govt. blocked it etc."
_ falun_gong_in_china/index.album?i=0&s=1
Google should at least block all sites for a given keyword, not present propaganda only. Have some ethics, tell them "give us a list of keywords to block"
source:
http://googlecensorship.tripod.com/google_censors
This article is an utter and complete joke, what is so brave about doing what the government says and making millions of dollars in the process, I mean give me a break...
The article implies that libel laws and laws againt computer-generated child-porn are synonymous with censorship. That's crap, of course. I expect that kind of argument from a high school student, not a paid BBC commentator.
I think not. Most people (at least Americans) don't care what Google does in China, even if they know anything at all about it. All they care about is the search results and products Google makes FOR THEM.
Not to mention habits are hard to break, so "Googling it" is something that now comes as second nature to many people and isn't likely to change over China.
All of you "OH NOES! GOOGLE IS TEH EVIL!!!11!eleventyone" people need to re-evaluate their lives. Do you all consider yourselves evil? No? How many of you are working on systems whose parts were manufactured in China? How many of your clothes and shoes were made there? How many objects can you find within ten feet of you right this second that were made in China? You are doing business in China, by buying their goods, but you are not evil. Why are you applying a double standard to Google?
Okay, now my initial knee jerk reaction is that Google shouldn't be censoring. But then I read that Google WILL NOTIFY USERS THAT THE DOCUMENT IS CENSORED.
Its one thing where censorship is hidden, but its quite another when millions of Chinese will begin to realize how much information is being hidden from them.
This is a good thing, and certainly not evil.
Millions of people may now be turning away from Google in disgust....
Who are they turning to? Haven't ALL the major search engines "caved in" (e.g. MSN, Yahoo) to the Chinese Government's pressures? The open source answer should be something like: "You don't like it? Build your own search engine, then!"
$nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
I really can't believe how anyone could sympathize with government sponsored censorship.
The author clearly felt bad enough about what Google has done to stop using it.
But then he felt bad about not being able to use Google.
So he has concocted a rationalization that allows him to use Google without feeling bad about it and even extended it to the point where he can feel proud of himself for it.
SOP.
KFG
This story has been spinned in so many directions that I'm getting dizzy.
But, whatever colored glasses you choose to wear, a few facts remain undisputable...
1) Chinese government actively censors certain information from its people
2) Google wants to do business in China
3) At China's demand, Google censors certain information from it's google.cn search replies
4) Once, on Google's FAQ page, a few statements existed regarding the company's belief in a democratic and uncensored distribution of information... those statements have been removed recently.
Whether someone is wrong or right in all this depends (partly) on how you rate the importance/goodness of some of these facts in relation to each other.
Honestly the chinese censorship is totally overrated by Americans.
Everyone in China knows there is censorship, everyone in China knows about the rest of the world. It's more of an annoyance than anything.
Finding "banned" information in China is like trying to get "warez" in the united states. It's not legal and every so often the sites get shutdown but it's not like it's a big secret or people with a little effort can't find it.
Finding some "banned" info in china is about as hard as an American finding photoshop on the internet. Basically a pain in the ass with a slight chance of legal repurcussion but really not much a big deal.
Would it be nice if the Chinese government would just throw in the towel and give up the half-assed attempt to censor the internet? Hell ya! Waste of everyone's time and money, but really it's not as big a deal as some of these Chinaphobes make it out to be...
It's generally agreed that free information flow and communication are two of the best tools a population can have to use against a totalitarian or dictatorial government. Okay, so google.cn is limiting the flow of information, but that flow is still greater than it would be if google.cn didn't exist.
Think of it this way - the first couple of cracks in a dam don't look too threatening when they are small and just forming. Think of google's presence in China as the harbinger of greater information flow to come. Intelligent and quick-witted people will use this limited tool to find ways to ultimately have a tool which is less limited, less restricted.
I'm not saying that (GOOGLE.CN)==(FREEDOM FOR CHINA), only that IMHO this is a step in the right direction. If that step is hobbled, it is nonetheless progress toward a desirable end. Also, let's not upbraid Google too harshly for functioning to the best of their abilities despite obstacles imposed by a sovereign state in which they wish to do business; rather we should applaud their effort to expand their business model and all that goes with it into an undeniably hostile environment. That their motives are not so lofty as the furtherance of human rights and personal freedom is irrelevant: that their actions might lead to the furtherance of human rights and personal freedom seems more important to me here.
I don't see why anyone would be upset with Google for censoring results for China. If they didn't, then the Chinese government would probably block Google entirely. So you people would rather the Chinese not be able to use google at all? Use your heads. Google did the right thing.
The chinese CHOSE to be socialist, and CHOSE to be repressed,
Nope, the Chinese were conquered by the latest dynasty in a long line of totalitarian rulers that goes back thousands of years, and have never had a chance to choose a leader in their entire history.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
But the law isn't Israel-specific. It prohibits US persons or entities from complying with "unsanctioned foreign boycotts". It also prohibits any US person or entity from discriminating "against any corporation or other organization which is a United States person on the basis of the race, religion, sex, or national origin of any owner, officer, director, or employee of such corporation or organization".
So for Google's China unit to exclude the US branches of Falun Gong (a religious organization) or US branches of Taiwanese political groups (national origin discrimination) from their index seems to be a violation of US export regulations under 15 CFR 160.1.
Working through a foreign subsidiary doesn't get around these rules. That loophole has been plugged very thoroughly.
This could be a real problem for Google.
The way I see it... either google censors and china allows the site to go through the great firewall or the site is blocked entirely by the "People's" Republic.
Their are only two possibilities the goverment of china will allow. A censored google or no google. I agree that googles actions are neither brave nor righteous. But they aren't evil or wrong in any case.
Hmmm... Pie...
Google's motto is "Do no evil". I would interpret this much as promising that they will do no harm, not that they will right all wrongs. Much as a medical doctor under the Hippocratic Oath promises not to harm patients, rather than promising to cure all their ills.
Given a choice between a (legally constrained) presence in China and no presence whatsoever, it is less than clear to me that they are "doing evil" by remaining. Perhaps you think that they are doing harm by doing business under a repressive regime, but I would have to respectfully disagree there.
Since they are acting only to censor themselves (a distinction beyond the wit of one BBC Radio 4 listener who called an afternoon news programme to ask why they couldn't censor sexually oriented websites while they're at it) I fail to see the hypocrisy in their actions.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
Did the BBC come out in favor of companies doing business in apartheid South Africa? The arguments there were exactly the same.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Is it me or are we ignoring the people of China? China was #1 on the list of highest amount of executions last year (or so I have been told) so maybe it is in Google's best interests to protect Chinese users from accidently going on a potentially unacceptable website and getting their head chopped off. If Chinese users want to browse an unrestricted web I am sure they can find a way of doing it illegally, just like Western users can find ways of watching potentially offensive entertainment.
China is always an issue on this board. I know most Westerners don't like China government as well as some Chinese. I'm from mainland China and work in US for about 5 years. Do I like the freedom here? Ya, that works well here for American but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work in China. Then China must be bad guy. That is the simple logic from America. See, the America cultural is to respect others and difference. That is good, however, it only apply domestic, not international or political issue. What the h*ll you think everybody else on the Earth has to have same ideology as yours? Simply because you're rich and powerful? Convince yourself first. China has continuous 5000 years history with 2500 years very well documented. If something is wrong, it wouldn't survive such long. We, Chinese, know very well surviving skill. We see all kinds of countries rise and fall. "We are still here!" Does this imply anything? Don't teach what we should do. IMO, Western should worry about their future and culture seriously, if now is not too late. Then what is key Chinese cultural and philosophy? Simple: follow the natural rule, don't push. Human and universe (see not only the Earth) are one unity. If you want to survive in this universe, be part of it. Western cultural is opposite: conquer the natural, let natural world service human being. Yes, you can conquer the natural and gain a better life. But you forget penalty sooner or later will come back. Why? The natural has its balance. If your destroy it, it will rebalance it by eliminate the culprit who destroys it. Chinese realized this about 3000 years ago. That's why China is still here. I really doubt human being can survive another 1000 years if we don't change our behavior and live style, including China who becomes more and more Westernized, which is very dangerous for Chinese. Wake up guys! Sorry for the diverted topic and not answering question directly. I always think in boarder prospective.
I am late for this discussion, so my post will probably be lost in the crowd...
Anyway, I remember Solidarity movement in Poland - one of its main successes was to have all censorship in newspapers marked with something like "removed in line with blahblah Act". In fact it became a kind of national sport to read newspapers and guess what was removed. Sometimes something like half of the article was cut - which was even more interesting. "Wow - there must be something really interesting about this subject" - that's what everybody thought seeing such censored removals.
It is the same here: it is a big difference if you put "Tiananmen" into a search box and get only results like "city guided tours" or pages of travel agencies or if you get these along with "some results to your query have been removed to comply with Chinese regulations".
An example: you hear a rumour, that something is going on in some city. You put the name of this city into google.cn and get this anouncement that some results were removed - bang! and you have confirmation that something important is going on.
As they say it "it is not true until they deny it". In this case: it is not important/dissident/interesting unless they censor it.
Cheers
Raf