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Police Restrict Public Photography
An anonymous reader writes "News.com is reporting that in Australia, recent attempts by a photo club to take pictures of industrial installations was met with police resistance. From the article: 'Club member Hans Kawitski was told not to photograph industrial installations and was ordered to inform members of the camera club to follow his lead. Liberty Victoria said its advice to photographers would be to ignore the directive. "The police have got no place making such warnings," president Brian Walters SC said.'"
... but CCTV is fine. Mmmm, double standards.
One of my friends was taking pictures of an industrial facility at night for a photography class - security detained him and destroyed his film.
But we'll all be thankful when terrorism goes away for good, though, right guys?!
Unfortunately that happend in some countries of "west" a long time ago allready... McCarthy anyone?
If it's the government or some corporation, it's good. If it's you, it's bad.
For other examples, look at rootkits, spying, lying... the list goes on.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
One day I got lost at night and so walked up and down a block a few times trying to figure out where in the hell I was. A police officer stopped me. He asked me if I knew why he stopped me. I told him no. He said I was "walking suspiciously". I blinked at him like he was an idiot and asked him if he was going to arrest me for "walking suspiciously".
At that point I think he realize that he was being a complete fucking idiot, as I wasn't breaking any law and he sure as hell couldn't arrest me for anything. He muttered some vague threat about "keeping an eye on me" and then waddled off to eat donuts, go bust an underage drinking party, or confiscate marijuana from college students and cancer patients.
My point? Australia might be different, but at least in the US, they can't drag you off without a charge. Hell, a street officer can't even search you without some justifiable suspicion that a law has been broken. If there is no law in the books against taking pictures of whatever, you can take pictures of whatever. If the police are really giving you a problem, go grab your Australian ACLU equivalent and bring a member with you. Let the police do something stupid, then tack their balls to the wall and make an example out of them.
People don't realize how eager the ACLU is to throw in a helping hand. When I was young, we had a local guy get the beat up by the town sheriff for insulting him. The ACLU was down before weeks end. They had a trial that ended with the Sheriff losing his badge and paying restitution. I would be amazed to learn that there exist first world democracies without an ACLU equivalent. Honestly, if you are really having problems, just give them a friendly call. If nothing else they will give you some good advice and inform you on the legal limits of your position.
For those who haven't heard the term before, sousveillance refers to the use of technology by members of society to watch and record the activities of others, particularly authority figures. It seems like it's becoming increasingly futile for organizations to try to resist sousveillance, as the police in the article attempted to do. As technology progresses, cameras and cameraphones are just getting smaller, cheaper, and harder to detect. Eventually it gets to the point where people have things like retinal implants and little remote-control cameras, and it becomes absurdly impractical to try to keep them away from all the things you want to keep secret.
I've recently started reading David Brin's The Transparent Society, which proposes the somewhat counterintuitive notion that instead of resisting government invasions of privacy, we instead ensure that everybody is able to watch everybody. In effect, the answer to the question "Who watches the watchers?" becomes "Make everybody a watcher." This of course has its problems and I'm still not sure what I quite think of it, but it's certainly an interesting idea. The first chapter of his book is available online. I highly recommend skimming through it.
"The shopping center is private property"
If they value their privacy so much, they shouldn't invite the general public to come inside.
Because it is private property, they can restrict photography inside the mall. Just because you invite the public in doesn't mean you give them rights to do whatever they want.
The same principle applies to smoking.
My Sysadmin Blog
Okay, let's assume for a minute that the article supports your statement that "some cops just warned them" or that you merely forgot to cite a secondary source which includes this information.
You're okay with the police "just warning" people not do things they have every legal right to do, even though doing those things won't cause anyone any harm? What exactly are they warning them about then? A warning implies a threat, and in the lack of any other threat, whose left but the very police doing the warning? That's intimidation.
You seem to be arguing that just because the police can't legally stop people from taking the photographs that it isn't a "ban" or "restriction". It certainly sounds like they're trying to restrict people to me. They're just not doing so legally and their reasons are unclear.
And, by the way, there are plenty of "damn things" the police can do if you don't cooperate - especially if they're corrupt.
The shopping center is private property...
Which is, in itself, a bad thing. Shopping centers replace regular shopping streets. On a shopping steet, people walk in public space, so they can choose which private shop they will enter, or not enter any shop at all. In shopping centers, only to choose where to shop, they have to enter private property, and comply with extra rules, give up even more privacy etc.
Since people need to shop, and many shops along public streets are disappearing because of the shopping centers, people are not free to avoid such places. So another part of the public space turns into private property.
Trust me, I work for the government.
I really really disagree. If they let a person onto their property, they should be able to take photos. Period. If you reflect light at me no one should have the right to prevent me from capturing it. Whether I see it with my eye or with my camera should make no difference. If you don't want me to witness the light in your building then do not allow/invite me in.
Of course you do have rights if I photographed your copyrighted material. I should still be able to photograph it if I'm allowed to see it but I cannot sell/distribute said photos because the work belongs to you.
Please don't quote law. This is my opinion and how I feel about it. I know the law disagrees.
They lend a helping hand to what they are interested in.
Err, your point?
The NRA lends a helping hand when they are interested too. If I have a problem with my gun rights, I'll call the NRA. If I have a problem with my freedom of speech or illegal search and seizure, I'll call the ACLU. If I want a pizza, I will call Dominoes (actually, I just walk over to the pizza shop next door, they are much better).
What exactly is your point? That the ACLU isn't all things to everyone? Oh, okay. One point for you. Is the ACLU the go to place for freedom of speech and illegal search and seizure issues? Absolutely. One point for me.
Oh look, we would have tied if we were playing the same game.
i'm a keen photographer, although at the moment I seem to spend more time reading about my hobby than actually doing it. One of the magazines I regularly read has been full of tales of police/security over-zealousness for months now. Unfortunately in Britain at the moment, the police do not need to charge you with anything to detain you - if they have suspicions of any sort that they can relate to terrorism in any way, they can haul you off to the station for questioning. This has happened and been reported in photography magazines several times recently (and that's only the incidents that the victims actually wrote to magazines about). A well known case was of a man taking photos around (I think) Canary Wharf in London (near the Gherkin building and all the new, Norman Foster -esque architecture). He was basically meandering round taking photos of buildings, someone reported him to the police as being suspicious, and that was that: I believe he was taken to the station, questioned and interviewed, but eventually released without charge. I've read dozens of similar reports in the last few months.
The problem is exacerbated in Britain because of (in my view) the scare-mongering tabloid press and their one-upmanship over fantastic headlines; there have been so many over-the-top stories and rumours about paedophiles over the last few years, for instance, that much of the public is now paranoid about the issue, even though such crimes have pretty much stayed at the same level they were at decades ago. Famously, after one paper named and printed photos of known sex-offenders, gangs of vigilantes went round beating up people who looked like the people in the pictures, or had similar names; and in one case, a paediatrician was forced to flee her home because people thought she was a danger to children and daubed threatening graffiti over her house. This eventually led last year to the major of London announcing a plan to erect signs in public spaces such as parks to warn people to be suspicious of anyone with a camera; thankfully he has since backed down.
Unfortunately this does seem to be rubbing off on people: much of the public would now rather not ask questions but just act on their paranoia. In the recent case of an innocent man being shot by police because he happened to live in a block of flats where a terrorist suspect lived, it quickly became apparent that it was all a terrible case of mistaken identity and incompetence by the police; but most of the people I heard talking about it in the following days thought the victim deserved it, either because he was an illegal immigrant (he had overstayed his visa), or because he vaulted the ticket barrier (he did not), or because he had on a bulky jacket (he did not), or just because it's better to be safe than sorry, and a few unnecessary deaths is a price worth paying (!). I had to stop myself from having a big argument with a taxi driver a week after the incident, as he was adamant that even if the man was innocent, was acting innocently and did nothing wrong whatsoever, his death was still OK because we live in dangerous times and if the police think, for whatever reason, that someone *might* be slightly suspicious, shooting him 8 times at point blank range is the best thing to do. Needless to say I didn't tip him.
Unfortunately people are becoming accustomed to paranoia - it seems our governments are in some cases willingly fostering a feeling of unease about anything and anyone, and people are responding.
Now this is, of course, assuming your friend wasn't doing something illegal while taking the pictures like tresspassing, which is illegal and would get him in trouble.
No, he was in the street taking pictures through an open gate.
I realize there's a difference between the police doing it and private security force doing it, the bullshit reasoning behind it is the same, though.
If they really don't like you, they can say you threatened them and arrest you for that. If they push you and you reflexively grab their wrists, you might get shot, and at the very least you've now assaulted an officer of the law. They can provoke you with impunity, because no one will believe you. Everyone will take their word for it, because you're just a schmuck with a camera, while they were putting their life on the line to protect and serve. Cops are heroes, and you're just a suspect who stopped them from keeping us safe. Who told you you have these "rights" to take pictures? Wow, another bleeding heart liberal. Haven't you done enough damage to our country without berating the poor police officers?
The ideal situation for cops is where there just about everything is illegal if they want it to be, so they can tell you "move along" and you have no choice. Cops are people, people like power, and people also generally have trouble dealing well with power. It tends to go to their heads. But as long as we always give the cops the benefit of the doubt, we will be falling headlong into a police state. Of course that won't matter until you're the one who gets the stern "move along," and by then it's too late. The only way to protect freedom is to be skeptical of, even slightly hostile to, government power. If abuse of power is considered innocuous, then we're pretty much done with the whole freedom thing.
And of course the spies would have never thought of hidden, miniature cameras in buttons, purses, books and what not, yes? The actual purposes this (and many other equally ridiculous) prohibitions served were to: intimidate the population, empower the police to arrest people wantonly on a multitude of pretexts and to create a false impression that the state vigilantly guards you against the Emmanuel Goldsteins of the world. I feel rather sad that so many people fall for such obvious psych-ops manouvers.
However, you quote:and we were talking about private buildings (shopping centres).
Another quote from the link you provided:So I'm afraid in that respect, things are slightly different in Australia - the concept of public space is different between the countries.
My pics.
Sure it may not be illegal, and the cops may be full of hot air. But you still didn't take photos at the ferry terminal, so something must be working, right? It's a pitty, really.
When an official lies to the public, it is patriotism. When the public lies to an official, it is perjury.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
My co-lo is in the basement of a building in the Melbourne CBD. About a year ago a local bunch of Islamic extremists were caught taking photographs of it. Perhaps they were just fans of architecture. This building also houses the stock exchange, though I was most concerned about my two BSD boxes.
Building management tightened security as a result and I had to go along for a security induction. The security guy took me to an employees lunch room. There was another guy in there eating noodles for dinner. Security guy said something about this being a very secure building and I replied off the cuff that somebody was thinking of blowing it up!
Noodle eater inhaled at the wrong time and started to choke on his noodles. That was a bad joke, sorry about that.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
And of course a matter of definition.
If you kill an innocent, it's murder.
If the gov't kills an innocent, it's collateral damage.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
all this photography paranoia, so last millenium, have they never heard of things like google earth?
The summer holiday have just passed over there. This is what I think happened:
club member snaps oil tanks.
Police notice him and decide to investigate.
To save his face after finding out it was nothing to worry about, officer makes a stern warning not to do that again. Clubmembers dislike officer and make some waves about it.
Papers need some new and like a row, pick up story.
Except that there was no real news story. Yeah police down under are a bit thick, but that is no news.
fact-void.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
Many stores have a "no photos" policy simply to reduce competition. Otherwise you could walk into the store, take a few photos, and have a reasonably accurate snapshot (pardon the pun) of their inventory line and pricing. I don't know why a mall would want to get into that act, unless they figured a few "no camera" signs at the front door was better than having the same sign at the entrance of every other store inside the mall.
Some places also do it for the comfort of their customers. For example, when I was in Tokyo I took some pictures inside a Pachinko parlour and was asked to leave. Unlike traditional casinos where the picture might reveal a technical cheat ability, the reason I was asked to leave the Pachinko parlour was simply because many of the customers are supposed to be elsewhere and don't want to be caught in a lie.
will be overlooked.
Can you get that in writing ahead of time? No? So basically you're saying "take a risk and hope nobody sues you". This is freedom, when one cannot be informed of what is and is not permissible?
Won? No-one can WIN in a cold war, because it's more of paranoia than war. US is in the edge of new cold war, this time against terrorists. And the definition of terrorist is growing day by day.
Mistake one: giving him your personal information. First, you're under no obligation to identify yourself. Second, how do you know he was a federal agent? That seems like a good way for a ID thief to get detailed information from a tourist they'll never see again.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Lord knows they couldn't just write down this information.
(*sheesh*)Before the "burn the strawman" argument comes up, I thought the original premise is that the party in question was on public property.
If we're not on privately owned property, why shouldn't I defend myself? I, like millions of other US citizens, am ex-military. Many of us hit the range on a fairly regular basis (probably more than a real cop in many jurisdictions, let alone "security guards"). If I hold a CCW (which fortunately I don't feel the need to) and you threaten me with use of force (say a firearm) on public property you're toast.. there will be no "threatening" about it. If I'm good you won't know that I'm armed until about 2/3 of a second before rounds go down range. And yeah, I can handle the adrenaline dump.
I know this sounds harsh, but think about it. If you're on public property attempting to detain somebody with your imaginary authority in reality you're nothing more than a street thug.
The correct answer on public property for all of us is to call the real police. They work for you, they work for me, and hopefully they can sort it out fairly.
And a second grade school teacher friend of mine who was pulled over for seven over the limit got her ass chewed by an an extremely agitated seemingly over-worked officer.. again.. a real cop. She weighs about 115, runs a charity in her spare time and has a habit of adopting kids.. literally. I've never heard her say anything nasty that wasn't warranted to anybody in a decade.
A similiar situation happened in the southern US which was recorded on video where the deputy pulled a woman out of the car and was dragged her onto the ground and abused for speeding. It seems as though she was nervous and having trouble with her seatbelt and he took issue with it.
When I lived in Arizona it was common knowledge that one of our cops would let certain attractive women "off the hook" if they were to perform services on him. One of them nailed his ass with DNA evidence. The list goes on.
Since there's been many reported incidents of law enforcement officers abusing their power (which presumeably have been carefully screend) why should I trust a company hired lackey like you? You're one step away from telemarketer on the employment food chain. At least with a state certified peace officer I know that there's a standard involved (New Orleans cops not withstanding). With security guards you can never be sure.
Several problems with this policy making any supposed sense:
- Sattelite photos exist of pretty much every thing except the most sensitive of installations
- If I can see it, I can take a mental picture of it to draw later. I can take several trips back and forth to get better views of it to make a more complete drawing
- If it is so sensitive, why do you allow people near it in the first place (see above)?.
Black Invention Myths
Right, you can try and place me under citizens arrest, only if you see me comitting a crime. If you try and grab me off the street when I'm doing nothing wrong, that's kidnapping. In a number of states, that's cause to use lethal force. Being a security guard doesn't give you some kind of immunity. I am not recommending that people go around theatening security guards. I am recommending that they know their rights and exert them. If there is a high probablility those rights will be infringed upon with force, carrying a weapon is an idea to consider, if the jursidction allows. I am telling them if they do so to find out and comply with all local laws.
On the flip side I recommend security comply with all laws, in fact it's your job to be extra careful. Know precisely where your line of demarcation lies. If someone is off your property, hell even if they are right on the edge, leave them alone. Be aware that your fake badge gies you no more rights than a normal citizen, and be aware that if you are going to arrest someone, you'd better be damn sure that you are in teh right because if not, they are probably in the right to use force to stop you.
I was taking digital photos of various walls in the warehouse district of a California city a few days ago for use as textures in a game. A couple was sitting in their car across the public street from the sidewalk I was standing on. I heard the woman ask her boyfriend "What is he doing? Is that legal?". The guy gets out of the car and jogs to the front of the place I was photographing and I hear him telling the owner what I was doing. I didn't wait around to see what would happen (bad neighborhood), but the mere fact that these people would get into a huff about such a thing kind of scares me. Does anyone in the general population respect the freedoms of others?
Congress declared war? On who?