Would You Take A Paycut for More Interesting Work?

HellsAngel asks: "I work in a business consulting firm. While the pay and the benefits are great, the work itself is mundane and boring, consisting of Excel, Access, and VBA macros. Recently, I got a job offer to move to a startup doing OS development and Systems and Network programming, however it would involve a paycut. Would you leave an otherwise perfect job to work on something more interesting?" "Today, I work as an IT Analyst for a multinational firm doing business consulting. From the looks of it, I've got the perfect job: high pay, extravagant benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, can telecommute whenever possible, and best of all the coworkers are great and have truly become my friends, even the boss.

However, the work I actually do seems to be a waste of my CS education. My current project right now involves hooking up Excel and Access with a little VBA and some macros. The other day I was asked to export a Lotus Notes database into an Excel file and format it. The most programming-intensive project that I've done here was an ASP.NET webapp, for the company intranet.

Am I selling out by continuing to work in my current firm? Should I take the pay-cut to work at a startup where I can make more use of my talents? I'm a recent grad with no loans or credit cards to pay, so I have a low cost of living aside from a girlfriend. Which would you prefer: fun at work, or fun outside of work?"

Comments

Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[DSL-Admin]

I'd take a cut to have a Mgr that actually knew more than me.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[Anonymous Coward]

Why?

I manage a small office and every so often, I hear this exact same thing.

I know how to manage -- I hire folks that are smarter than me for a reason -- because if I wanted to do the job myself, I'd have hired someone stupider.

Beyond that, managers have to know skill sets outside of just your own. I can admit I'm not the best coder out there, and I'm not really upset by it. So long as I can create ideas and others can realize them, I'm in good shape. Coming from both sides of the equation, I'd rather be a manger or have a manager that could admit he didn't know more than me and let me do my job -- I've never micromanaged my employees and I expect the same in return.

Personally, I think the folks 'under' me are actually more important in the scheme of things -- but without someone to guide them nothing would get done.

Posted anonymously because I don't want those nerds to get a big ego if they read this. Or more importantly, ask for raises.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[jkauzlar]

I think you're correct to a point. Managers' jobs are (or can be) wayyy different from software developers'. It depends on the environment. If you're talking about project managers, I think they ought to know more than their underlings. Management that deal in budgets, communicating with higher management, etc, seem totally different. These mgrs can get transferred from unrelated depts into IT and hardly miss a beat. I'm assuming that since you're reading slashdot, you must be somewhat tech-savvy and perhaps not in this breed of mgmt.

I'm just a peon, by anyone's standards, but I would feel dispirited if someone were promoted past me because they couldn't function at the lower level. I've seen it several times (well, a couple times, but I haven't been in the corp. world long) where the clueless employee is promoted because mgmt doesn't want to risk taking the best guys off the lower-rung jobs. On the other hand, the best guys, the geeks, enjoy their line of work and would probably feel less satisfaction at the mgmt level. So they're stuck at a lower pay level, and like the parent suggests, probably would love to have something of a mentor working above them... it would give them some hope of advancement, careerwise.

On a side note, if you're managing geeks, or technical specialists of some kind, its probably best to avoid any micro-management simply because you don't know what you're talking about. I like seeing my manager as an ally in my career, not someone I have to slip past to get anything done. It's a complementary relationship, not a strict heirarchy. She knows much that I don't, and that goes both ways.

Enough of my soapbox.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[aristotle-dude]

I'm sorry but you have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about. Managers do not have to a complete understanding of what their staff members do. The managerial skills they possess are equally important to the an organization's success as your technical skills.

If you want to see an example of how poor management performance can negatively affect the output of a company, you only need look at the windows OS development unit.

MSFT has a lot of talented developers on their payroll but their middle management and project leaders appear to be completely incompetent in their managerial role. I would surmise that a lot of their problems with quality and delays are caused by managers not being able to manage expectations and not being able to de-scope unnecessary functionality while prioritizing core functionality.

A manager should hire the best people with skills outside of their own core competence. Managers who involve themselves in the day to day operations of their department are micro-managers which is something you do not want.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a hardcore programmer. Well, at least I was. 2 years into my first job out of college, I got offered another job and the only way my current company could match was to promote me. The promotion came with other benefits such as bonus/stock opts./etc, so I couldn't pass it up.

I had no experience with management, but knew that there were people out there that could do a better job at web development than I could. So, I got the chance to hire some more people for my web dev group and hired super people that knew way more than I did. It ended up workout out great! I was honest about my skill level and let my people know that their expertice and creativity was always appreciated.

I view myself as working for my employees instead of them working for me. I ask on a constant basis if they need anything or if there is anything I can do to help them complete their task. By them doing a great job, I do a great job, and that shoots right up the ladder.

I also know that it helps to be passionate about what you do. I get excited when I think about web development and what it could do for the company and I see that it infects my team. They get excited about it too. They want to learn more and advance and make the corporate intranet easier to use and a pleasant experience for our users.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[ackthpt]

I'd take a cut to have a Mgr that actually knew more than me.

I'd settle for a manager who created a positive work environment. I've had a few and let me tell you, there's nothing quite like the feeling of actually looking forward to a good day at work, when you've spent years coming in at 7 or 8 and just trying to get through the day/week/month/year ...

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[Anonymous Coward]

There are four traditional roles for a manager:

1) Manager - as in budget/resource/time management, project management
2) Mentor - as in someone who guides, helps you find your way
3) Teacher - someone who teaches actual information
4) Facilitator - as in getting their team to work effectively

1+4 dont need more knowledge or intelligence than their underlings.
2+3 you would need at least as much expertise.

A good manager would have all 4 qualities, but obviously its hard to find someone who can do all 4, but that person is definately worth leaving a company or taking a paycut to work for. Incidentally, in most surveys of why people leave work, it is because of an incompetent manager. I can't cite a source, but it should be easy to google.

The OP should consider not just interesting work, but all the factors that can make him or her happier:
Interesting work
Adequate recognition
Pay
benefits/perks
Opportunities for growth - not just raises and promotions, but professional growth
flexible work arrangements

I'm probably missing some, but the OP should take a hard look at ALL the things that contribute to satisfaction on the job, prioritize and go from there.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you're talking about project managers, I think they ought to know more than their underlings."

I think that there are two entirely separate skill sets that you are trying to meld into one.

1. Ability to mentor less experienced programmers and offer design and analysis.

2. Ability to manage schedules and juggle multiple things at once.

IMO, the first requires someone who can focus and ignore distractions. The second requires someone who can multi-task. These are fundamentally different personalities. To my mind, a project *manager* needs to be the second kind of person. You seem to be saying that you want a project manager to be the first kind of person. I would call that person the project lead or project architect. If you're trying to manager your projects with an engineer, I suspect that you will have a lot of badly managed projects.

Also, the way to fix the problem of the better people being in lower paid jobs is simple: pay engineers more than managers. At my job, we have engineers at all levels, from people like me (at the bottom) to people reporting to the CEO. The engineers who report to the CEO get paid like vice presidents.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[rblancarte]

I will agree with what you say. I think it is very important to understand the role of a manager.

That all being said, the real question was "Would you take less for more interesting work?"

And that being said, the real question is - "How do you feel about your job?"

Because, regardless if your job is "a waste of your talent/education" or you have a bad manager, etc, if you are happy at your job, then you should not leave. IMHO, happiness at your job is the most important thing. If you are happy, then you can deal with the work that is below your level of education.

Now, if you are unhappy, then maybe this change of environments would be good for you, even with less pay. It is a choice you have to make.

I would also say, from what the writer said, this person sounds kind of younger. Why not take a risk and see where it leads? You are young and can take these chances.

Good luck.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[AlecC]

If you're talking about project managers, I think they ought to know more than their underlings.

I disagree. I work for a company which produces hardware. The Project Manager for whom I am working is usually a hardware engineer. Often a good hardware engineer. And one who can cut a fair bit of software - in these days of programmable devices, hardware looks a lot like software. But he has not got, and knows he has not got, my software skills. He cannot do my job, and would be wrong to try to.

In multi-discipliniary teams, it is unreasonable to expect anyone to be able to master the all the skills used in the project. Managers have to have only enough skill to judge outcomes, not to do the work themselves.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[msobkow]

You neglected another key point of the real question -- which company is going to be around next year? 2 years? 5? 10?

What if the interesting job is with a company that has no perceived revenue stream, a dot-bomb tech-driven business plan (whether they label it 2.0 or not), and no real business plan other than a hope to be bought out? Are you really that "interested" in finding another job when they start bouncing paycheques on their way to bankruptcy?

Unfortunately that's the real world of most startups. Great talk, great perks, low pay, long hours, no business future, no budget.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[heck]

Are you really that "interested" in finding another job when they start bouncing paycheques on their way to bankruptcy?

The above is the more important question. I would say "if you're young, single, and want good experience, take the dot-com job for the experience." It may work out - and you make oodles - but more you get the experience. But - realize you've got possibility of crazy hours; your job could evaporate; you need to realize that while Task A may be due tomorrow, that could be quickly trumped by Emergency B where you quickly have to learn skill Q (not saying that can't happen anywhere; but large multinationals tend to have schedules that stick because there are more people to spread tasks around, and the skillset tends to be in house...somewhere); etc.

If you're risk averse - and coming out of college I knew several people that were - than stay put. You'll be happier overall, even though you know the work isn't as challenging as it could be.

Now if you have a family and large bills the question changes. But you didn't give me that impression.

Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[DuckDodgers]

If you mean it is always good to have a skilled, intelligent manager, then I agree.

If you mean you would like a manager that is skilled in the tools and programming languages that you use, I disagree. My current boss and his superior are both good managers. They prioritize items, they help plan projects and provide reasonable time estimates, and they're willing to spend the required money to get the tools, software, and other items we need to get the job done. My boss has never programmed anything, and his boss hasn't done any software development in 15 years.

My last boss was, hands down, the best software developer out of the 10 developers at the company. He would modify the Linux kernel for different hardware, write a display driver for Windows XP on another device, create network tools, anything. However, getting detailed project specifications out of him was harder than squeezing blood from a stone and he would never, ever sit down and take part in project planning. You would get a one page feature description out of him, and the next time you had any input would be harsh criticism on the failings of the finished version. More importantly, you had to fight like crazy to get funds for anything out of him. The amount of time we spent waiting in line - literally - for a turn to use a particular piece of hardware was absurd. This genius software developer probably wasted $75,000 a year in salary for unproductive employees for each of the four years I was there because he was too cheap to spend $15,000 on two extra servers and a handful of spare hardware items.

Re: Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr

[gidds]

I was honest about my skill level and let my people know that their expertice and creativity was always appreciated.

I think that's the important thing; the problem isn't with managers who have less technical knowledge than their people, but with managers who don't realise that. Or who don't think that matters.

Back on topic, 'interesting work' was one of my main criteria when doing my last round of interviewing. But you've no idea how hard it is to explain 'interesting work' to recruiters or agencies! The most common reaction was that if I wanted to learn stuff and work with smart people, I should become a professor, and that if I wanted to be creative and take pride in my work, I should become an artist... :(

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Get Together

[imoou]

You should get together with this guy and start a company which does programming-intensive and patent-free works.

I find that this is a common greener-grass syndrome where one doesn't realize how lucky one is, however this is a good syndrome because that is what got us human-beings to where we are today. Imagine what would the world be if we didn't invent TV and we had to sit on an empty couch all day?

My advice is to try out some part-time works that utilize your talents, this will give you time to understand what your talents and interests are without risking what you have right now.

Re:Get Together

[aborchers]

" the world would be much better off without television. you wouldn't be sitting on the couch, you'd be doing something."

Maybe if you watched more television, you'd learn how to recognize a joke from the laugh tracks.

Re:Get Together

[Moggyboy]

I agree. A colleague at a previous job said to me once, "The three aspects of a job you can be happy with are 1. money, 2. people, 3. work. If you're satisfied with at least two of these aspects, stick with it." I laughed at him at the time, and have jumped from job to job for the last six years, purely in the pursuit of higher salary every time. Now I've come to realize that he was right - it's pretty darn hard to find a job that has all three, and sometimes it's better the devil you know. A job is a means to an end, and facilitates the other things in life that you really enjoy. If you're feeling mentally unchallenged, find a hobby that DOES challenge you.

Re:Get Together

[jafac]

Work hard and save up enough money to retire early.

Then spend the rest of your life contributing to open source projects.

Re:Get Together

[st1d]

>>A job is a means to an end, and facilitates the other things in life that you really enjoy.

I couldn't agree more, but it's always amazing to me how many people see their job as a major part of their worth as a human being. If they have a bad day at work, they go home and kick around the family a while, get drunk or drugged up, or otherwise compound the effect of a single bad day. Of course, it's hard not to see things like this, because they're practically drilled into you from a young age. What your dad did for a living tends to set the stage for how you grow up, in the sense that whatever job he had you tend to want to at least meet that level of success for yourself. If you don't, you're a "failure".

Somehow, a few of us manage to break that cycle, and realize a job for what it is, a way of earning enough to create a means of doing the things we really enjoy, whether it's traveling around the world, feeding a hobby, etc. Without having some sort of goal like that you're simply chasing rainbows, because there will always be someone who makes a little more, has a little more interesting job, a little less stress, etc.

Of course, the saddest situation is when you see someone whose job has become their life, and this is common whether you're working at a fortune 500 office complex, or tiny machine shop. We've all worked with that one person who had no life outside of work, whose only hobbies were gossiping about coworkers and trying to stir up fights to entertain themselves. These are the folks that get fired and show up the next day with a shotgun. If you're falling into this category, get the heck out!

You should enjoy work, and find it stimulating on some level, though. Perhaps not your duties (I'd be worried about the janitor that looks forward to cleaning the bathrooms), but some aspect of your job that you deal with on a regular basis, maybe working with your coworkers, customers, or simply (like myself) watching company dynamics (watching how various parts of the company interact, for better or worse) in action. You should also make enough to pay the bills, spend on whatever hobbies you have, and put away for later. Lastly, you should have a position that allows you to spend time with your friends and family, and on your hobbies.

If you can do all three, the dollar amount is kind of like a high score on a video game. Cool to have, but not all that important in the long run.

Re:Get Together

[ornil]

I couldn't agree more, but it's always amazing to me how many people see their job as a major part of their worth as a human being

But work is a major part of your life. It takes about half of your waking hours. Your hobby can't come near it. Call me stupid, but not being satisfied during majority of your time is only marginally better than not being satisfied at all. Of course you don't need to go crazy over it, but it's pretty damn important, and being happy doing what you do there is also pretty damn important.

Re:Get Together

[rjstanford]

But work is a major part of your life. It takes about half of your waking hours.

Oh, really? You're awake about 128 hours a week. You're at work about 40, leaving almost 90 hours free. If you structure your life around the concept that your time is valuable (live close to where you work, not an hour's drive from anywhere, even if it means a smaller house (which means less expensive crap to stuff into it, etc)), that's quite a bit of time.

Unless you work on the weekends, of course. In which case, I recommend not doing that.

Not Perfect

[Cave_Monster]

It's hardly 'an otherwise perfect job' if it's mundane, boring and you are contemplating taking another job that involves a paycut.

Re:Not Perfect

[Lord Ender]

Yes, but if his pay really is that good, he could keep it, invest the extra pay like mad, and once he has enough invested to lived off the dividends, he can then do WHATEVER work he wants REGARDLESS of pay in a completely stress-free life.

Re:Not Perfect

[nra1871]

Trading happiness in your twenties/thirties for freedom in your fifties/sixties is hardly a good trade. The whole "work hard while young so you don't have to work anymore" idea is a great way of getting people to trade in their youthful energy for a few extra bucks. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the monopoly kings thought that up.

Isn't this attitude the cause of most of the problems people have when they reach late twenties/early thirties? They spend the first decade out of high school 'having fun', parties, cars they can't afford, no concern of saving money...then they wake up and realize they are in massive credit card debt, have no money to buy a house, and realize they actually have to retire someday and will need money.

Work to live

[jarfhy]

I always encourage folks to do something they enjoy. The whole 'work to live' not 'live to work'. Six months ago I quit my job becaue I didn't find it interesting or challenging anymore, and stumbled into some interesting and different work from what I had been doing.

Now that that is over I will look for something else interesting. I am married and have a stay at home wife and daughter and I will still look for something more interesting or fun to do, life should be more than just paying the bills and being bored.

Re:Work to live

[Grax]

I definitely believe life is too short to spend it in a job you don't like but I also feel that you need to make sure you take care of your commitments such as your family.

Finding a balance and learn to avoid the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome.

Re:Work to live

[krayzkrok]

My dad always told me there were three types of currency in jobs:

1. Money
2. Power
3. Satisfaction

Having all three is a perfect job. Having two out of three is a damn good job. If you can only have one, at least try to enjoy it!

And if you don't have any, quit and try again.

Re:Work to live

[roderickm]

Enjoying your job has its benefits, but there are other valid reasons to work. None of the following apply to everyone equally and they aren't direct substitutions for each other. Being a little heavy in one can compensate for being light in another:

• Direct Compensation
  
  • High salary/wage
    
  • Excellent retirement benefits
    
  • Excellent health coverage
    
  • Discounts on products/services
    
• Deferred Compensation
  
  • Ownership equity
    
  • Stock grants, warrants, or options
    
  • Profit-sharing
    
  • Bonus or performance incentives
    
• Educational Benefits
  
  • Experience, On-the-job training
    
  • Internship
    
  • Tuition reimbursement
    
  • Cross-training from co-workers
    
• Intangible Enrichment
  
  • Pure enjoyment
    
  • Spiritual purpose (Read 1 Cor 10:31)
    
  • Patriotism/Service to public
    
  • Fame, prestige, reputation
    
  • Philanthropic (joy of helping others)
    
  • Friendship, camraderie
    

To say that job satisfaction is above all others is self-serving and short-sighted. It may be true for a season, but there are many, many other motives for work. Think as a long-term investor: be aware of your motivations for accepting a position, and be continually aware of whether the original motives are no longer being served. Be also aware of the opportunities you forgo as you maintain your position. Be willing to change, and be ready to defend (to your own self) your decision.

Re:Work to live

[schematix]

Spiritual purpose (Read 1 Cor 10:31)

According to internet sources this passage is: So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

I have to say that i am probably the most anti-religious person that you will ever meet in your life but i do have to admit that this phrase (minus the G-d part), has a lot of merit to it. I used to think that the most important part of life was making money. That was until i took a job at about 20% less than i thought i should be making, and moved 2500 miles just because i thought the job was too perfect for me. Almost a year later i still love my job and love the work i do and i wouldn't trade it for twice the salary only to be miserable and regret getting up every day. My two cents: do what makes you happy and the rest will fall into place for you.

Re:Work to live

[Anonymous Meoward]

I couldn't agree more.

We had a situation in our home not too long ago that shines as an example. My wife was a product manager at a firm with international presence (can't go into more detail, sorry). She was thrown on airplanes to many far-flung places -- that's not a perq; business travels sucks -- during and after her pursuit of a part-time MBA at a top-notch program. While this was going on, she was also using her spare time to come up with business plans for said firm. Granted, it helped that she needed one for a class, but she poured a lot of effort into them for the sake of future use.

The lovely little firm used her plans, gave her no credit for them, threw her on more planes, trashed her in a performance review, never publicly acknowleged her MBA (despite a very nice ad taken out by the university in the Wall Street Journal that printed the company's name as well as hers), and was forced to sit through a team event where the laziest sacks of shit received accolades while her name went unmentioned.

(Our evenings at home, with her black moods at the time, were a real treat too. Being the supportive spouse was getting exhausting as well.)

Her manager's only advice to her during all of this? Quoting from memory: "We're here to collect paychecks, make money, and retire. That's it." What a nice motivational career statement: Go Along to Get Along, For We Are Waiting Around to Die.

I should also add that the former employer loved to dole out huge bonuses (near 20% of salary) in lieu of having a non-dysfunctional culture.

My point? Without power and satisfaction, the money means next to nothing. My wife left the firm. We left a lot of money on the table because we valued her sanity more. She now works for a group that thinks she's Wonder Woman, just because she's used to working very hard with a lot less support than she's getting today. That which does not kill you etc., I suppose.

I managed to get the MBA from the same school as well, and I understand the fineries of organizational behavior and business etiquette. Having said that, I'd still punch her ex-manager in the face if I saw him on the street.

The more interesting question..

[CynicalGuy]

Would you take a pay raise for less interesting work? Hell yes! Make a bunch of money first, then use that money to do something that interests you.

Money isn't everything.. But it IS freedom..

Re:The more interesting question..

[DeadPrez]

Money isn't everything.. But it IS freedom..

So that's why we put millions of dollars into each bomb headed for Iraq.

Re:The more interesting question..

[anthro398]

Money isn't everything.. But it IS freedom..

That isn't necessarily the case. I've worked for billionaires, including Doris Duke, and I never got the impression that they felt anything near the freedom I had. I had the freedom to drop everything, move to Hawai'i, and start a new life. Perhaps there is a financial sweet-spot under which a person worries about money constantly and over which a person worries about money constantly. Richard Kelley, chairman of Outrigger Hotels, once told me to watch my pennies and the dollars would take care of themselves. He was an excellent example of a man who, although rich (to the tune of 2.8 billion at the time), was a slave to his life, his work, and to money. Money!= freedom. If it did, no one would be more free than those with the most money and that is often not the case.

That's easy.

[Zarel]

Which would you prefer: fun at work, or fun outside of work?

Let's see. Excluding sleeping and other mundane activities, how much of your time do you spend at work, and how much do you spend away from work?

I thought so.

Re:That's easy.

[larry bagina]

In anorexic russia, cake jumps out of woman!!!

Re:That's easy.

[jbrader]

Well, if you sleep 8 hours a day and spend say 4 hours a day on mundane activities (commuting, eating although granted sometimes eating is a fun social activity, getting dressed in the morning etc.) then you have 12 hours a day left and 8 of that is spent working. So now you have 4 hours a day to yourself. Now I've had lots of jobs, I really loved a couple of 'em and hated most of the rest. And I noticed that when I got home from work after the haeful jobs I was tired and pissed off so my four hours of free time usually consisted of drinking beer and watching T.V. because I didn't want to do anything else. But when I got home from the jobs I loved I was usually in a good mood and wanted to go out and do things.

And the jobs I liked happend to pay less than the others, so even though I was makiing less money my life as a whole was way better. I had more fun when I wasn't working and when I was at work I didn't feel like I was wasting my time at some futile activity just to go home and rot on the couch.

Re:That's easy.

[protohiro1]

Totally. I second this statement. I had a job makine $7k more, and it sucked. It sounded good on paper, but it was boring and shitty. And it was going nowhere. And I had to commute 45 minutes. So I took this other job. It is interesting, pretty fun and its a 10 minute bike ride from my house. I sold my car (wrx...sniff sniff) and now I have *more* disposable income, more free time and a better quality of life. Your mileage may vary (WRX got about 24-26)

Re:That's easy.

[runderwo]

Bolemia? Isn't that a country?

If the job had potential for advancement

[phobos182]

It would depend on the size of the paycut (A large percentage?), and the advancement potential in the position. Why start a new job at the top of the pay scale, and at the top of the ladder?

You may be happier at the new position, and gain valuable experience to further your carrer. But it would not be optimal to start a new position where it takes two years to get back to your current wage if your not learning valuable skills to help your earning potential.

You only live once

[doonoop]

I'm a habitual paycut-taker, so maybe I'm biased. But I stay happy, and money only makes you happier when you're really struggling financially. The world is too wonderful, life too short and precious to waste on VBA programming.

Re:You only live once

[bit01]

The science agrees with you. e.g. Lottery winners, one year after, are no happier than they were before. What makes people happy long term are experiences, not pay increases, and with a bit of lateral thinking and creativity experiences don't have to cost much.

---

Creating simple artificial scarcity with copyright and patents on things that can be copied billions of times at minimal cost is a fundamentally stupid economic idea.

That depends on one thing...

[supremebob]

How serious is the relationship with your girlfriend? If you're thinking marriage and children in the near future, that bigger paycheck is going to come in handy.

Of course, you shouldn't let money be the only issue, but it still should be a major factor depending on where your life is headed. Whatever you do, try not to become one of those mini-van driving soccer dads who loathe going to work every day.

Probably not

[ThousandStars]

When I read your blurb on the homepage, "yes" leapt to my mind. Reading this, however, changed my mind:

From the looks of it, I've got the perfect job: high pay, extravagant benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, can telecommute whenever possible, and best of all the coworkers are great and have truly become my friends, even the boss.

Most people would kill for job conditions like those. The excellence of your coworkers and boss in particular makes me inclined to say that you should stay. If you feel your CS degree is wasted, work on open source projects or try to bring open source into your organization. There are a myriad of ways to apply your knowledge without necessarily quitting your job. The dissatisfaction you experience may not be alleviated in your new job and if your boss and/or coworkers are worse, you'll regret the switch.

Re:Probably not

[smackenzie]

Well, actually, it kind of does. My experience has been that non-compete agreements and IP rights that you do completely away from the work environment are very difficult to defend in a court. However, if you have a good relationship with your boss and coworkers, you can probably explain the situation to them and they will respect you even more. Just don't work on personal projects at work.

Re:Less pay, more stimulation

[Capt'n Hector]

I keep telling this to my wife, but she's still mad I see that hooker. :)

Re:Less pay, more stimulation

[Pii]

Why settle for one or the other?

If you've got a good salary, and good benefits, stay where you are while you search for an opportunity that can provide you with the kind of environment that you're after without having to sacrifice your current standard of living.

It's not 2002 anymore... You can have a job that you like, and get paid well for it.

Take a chance...

[Wishful Thinker]

Not that you can't do sophisticated stuff with excel, access, etc. (maybe you are), but if you're not, the kind of safety-scissors, connect-the-dots programming that usually gets done with these tools is a prime candidate for offshoring. Unless you're desperate for the cash (babies to feed, mortgage, etc.), do something that'll challenge you, and don't rest on your laurels.

A few thoughts

[code addict]

That's a tough choice. Try looking at it this way: If you stay will you still be qualified for more interesting work in 5 years? Alternatively, what if you find you don't find the more challenging work any more fun and just make less money for more work?

It's important to look at the non-work elements too. For example, I would imagine that your current job is so easy you have lots of free time to spend that big salary. A start up will pay less and leave you with way less time free.

Also, don't under-estimate the importance of your work environment. If your co-workers are fun to work with and the job isn't very hard, you've got a pretty good thing going. My recommendation would be to keeping your self challenged with projects on the side.

Another thing to consider is to talk to your boss about it. Say that you'd like to take on some more challenging tasks. Even better, look for ways to improve the business processes through software develop, and then request permission to implement them (in addition to your normal work, of course). It's usually worth trying to fix your current situation before thinking about leaving.

Run the numbers

[mrsam]

If a lower pay is enough to pay the bills and lead a comfortable life style, I would seriously consider dumping a high-paying boring job for a rewarding low-paying.

But:

The fact that it's a startup complicates things. Startups can fail at any time, and one day you may wake up and find yourself on the street. You need to do your homework and take a very close look at the startup: are they just a dot-bomb wannabe, or do they have a solid business plan, a marketable product, and a firm roadplan? The answers to these questions will guide you to making the call here.

Your other alternative is to find the time in your cushy job and make it interesting. If it's really such a bore you should have plenty of time to spend on educating yourself. Find something you want to learn, some skill, and use your free time to study it. If it's even barely relevant to your current line of work you are on solid ground to justify using your free time, on the clock, on this. No employer -- especially the solid company you claim to be working for -- would object to their employees learning and picking up related skills that might be relevant to their employment; they should even encourage it.

I did

[Michael Woodhams]

I took about a 30% pay cut to move from programming to science. I'm happy with that choice.

Apparently there is a term for this: "downshifters".

Give it a time limit

[WindBourne]

I have worked on 6 starts-up over the last 15 years. The 2'nd to last one put me in the hole 50K (from being up 60K in savings) which took several years to pay back. However, I am getting ready to do it again. Do I love it? absolutely. But I have been burned enough that I would offer you several suggestions.

• Make sure of the money in the company. Are they financed? How much money do they have in the bank?
• Get it up front as to what you will be earning, and what benefits.
• You are giving up a lot of money, so make sure that you will be compensated for your efforts. That is get chunk of the company.
• Make sure what is expected of you. Are you the core coder? Is this your idea? Who are the people that you will be working with. Understand that most of the ppl who do start-ups are bright, hard-driven, and egotisical. Can you deal with that.
• Did I mention that need to know what financing they have?

Finally, count on the fact that this company will fail (most do). What back-up plan do you have? If you quit your current job, make sure that you keep your foot in it( i.e. leave on a very good note). For the last 5 years, the economy has been so-so, with a enormously rising deficit, and almost certain that the deal with Iran is about to blow up. When it happens, the price of gas will probably shoot to 3-3.5/gal. That means that the economy will cut back. i.e., there is likely to be at least a softening in the economy. If the economy softens, what happens to the company? Is its product dependant on a growing economy.

Now, with all that, consider going. If you are a true CS, then the current job will guarentee you no future. Why would I hire you if you have shown no initiative. At the very least, if you stay with it, consider doing some OSS work. Since you do Windows, you can do that work in Windows as well. But you need something that shows that you are capable.

Good Luck.

Would I take a cut? In a heartbeat...

[spagetti_code]

Look - pay is usually ranked #6 or lower of most employees list of criteria for satisfaction. Dont mess with a boring job - quality of like just skyrockets if you are having fun.

Re:This has been discussed many times...

[rjstanford]

Do you value security and high pay over a potentially big reward (money, experience, personal satisfaction) that may or may not materialize? Would you be willing to leave a "good job" for something else that may be better or worse? How much do you believe in the start-up's chances and the people behind it?

Let me put it a better way. Why bother defining yourself by your job?

Show up at 8. Leave at 5. Every day. Give yourself a good life outside the office. Take up hobbies in your free time, which you'll have now and won't at the startup. Bank some money - if you can live off half your salary, that's a great cushion for the future when you do get the entreprenurial bug (or will let you retire surprisingly early if you don't).

But, in all seriousness, don't try to get everything you want out of life from your job. Take all of your vacation time every year. Insist on comp time and raises, too. Then go to Tahiti. Or train for marathons. Or play around with some cool scratch-an-itch software in your spare time (just don't spend it all in front of a monitor). Hang out with friends. Invest in yourself.

Don't let yourself become a "developer." You are a person. You have a job. The two are, should be, and can be seperate.

Yes. Quit.

[mrimprov42]

You should definitely quit.

After you do, can you put in a good word for me with your boss? I could really use the *high pay*, *extravagant benefits and bonuses*, *flexi-time*, and the ability to *telecommute whenever possible*.

Sheesh...

What are your goals in life?

[Zopilote]

Depends on your goals and state in life. If you are married and have kids (like me) you might want to stick with the higher-paying, more stable job. A job at a startup sounds like too much risk even without the pay cut.

However, if you are still relatively unattached, go for your dreams and what makes you happy at work. If you enjoy what you do, you will be more likely in the long run to find a job that does pay well and is fun at the same time. Consider the startup job to be a stepping stone along the way. Rather than let your skills get rusty and find yourself losing your edge later, keep them sharp and keep your motivation and enthusiasm up.

If you are unhappy with your current job but are still averse to the riskiness of a startup, don't take this opportunity but go ahead and look around for other jobs. There may still be a better place for you that doesn't have as much risk or as much of a pay cut. The economy is doing fairly well so don't be timid!

One more note. I know this is Slashdot and I also know the industry we are in, so the following advice may seem out of place. Nevertheless, here goes. Even in a job that you enjoy, try not to let it totally consume your life. There is life beyond work. I advise you to retain enough time for yourself to be able to strike up and nurture relationships with other people. If you have a family, spend time with them. If you are single, don't hesitate too long to find that special someone! The trend in our society is toward marrying and starting a family in your 30s or even later. First of all, that makes it harder to get used to each other when you do find someone. Second, it increases the risk of unhealthy children (birth defects, etc.). Third, despite the stereotypes, family life really is a lot more fun and enjoyable than the single life-- study after study claims this, and my own experience confirms it. When you look back on your life, will it matter more that you had a stellar, enjoyable career, or that you had a good family life and have relatives around you in your old age?

Again, I guess it really does boil down to what your goals are in life. They're not the same for everyone, but I do recommend sitting down and thinking honestly about your own goals and making sure they are the right ones for you-- that you aren't just following whatever everyone else is doing because you don't have your own clear path in mind.

Re:What are your goals in life?

[Zopilote]

Even in a job that you enjoy, try not to let it totally consume your life. There is life beyond work. I advise you to retain enough time for yourself to be able to strike up and nurture relationships with other people.

So let me ask you something....what do you do if you don't have ANY time during the week because of work, and your weekend is dominated by rest and chores that piled up from the week? How do you have time for relationships....or more importantly, the energy!?

The simple answer lies in the section you quoted: "Retain enough time for yourself..." in other words, don't let your job take up all your time during the week. In order to have a life outside of work, if I were in a job that required more than 50 hours a week as the normal state of affairs, whether I liked the work or not, I would start looking elsewhere. Think about it. At 50 hours a week, that's at least 2 extra hours out of each and every workday! What could you do if you had that time back?

The tough reality, however, is that it is not always easy, especially in certain industries, to find an employer that respects your off-work time. In the tug-of-war between employers and employees, it seems the trend is toward employees losing more of their personal time. It fluctuates with the job market: the last few years have favored the employers, pushing expected working time on average up quite a bit. But the market is swinging back toward the employees; it's up to us to ask for what we want. If market forces fail and current trends continue, as much as I hate government intervention, there may eventually need to be some changes in workers' rights legislation.

As for weekends, chores, etc. I totally hear you. It is frustrating and there never seems to be enough time for the relationships and hobbies you want. The only thing I can say is you have to prioritize the important things in your life, and sacrifice some things that don't make the cut. It all comes back to... "what are your goals in life?" Is it to play every great video game that comes out? Is it to have an immaculate, sparkling clean model home? (Good luck with that one if you have a family... give it up now!) Is it to have meaningful relationships? I'm not here to say "you can do it all." It might sound trite but it's totally true that you can't have everything. Those people that seem to have it all together, often only appear to on the surface.

I'm discovering this every day in my life. I am struggling so hard to finish my master's degree and still keep a sane work and family life. I had to sacrifice some things I liked, such as video games. My house is not the newest, biggest, or cleanest house among those in my social circle. I have unfinished projects right and left. But I'm happy with the choices so far because I know what I want out of my life. And my family life, even though it is not all perfect, is still worth everything I've given up for it. Nothing beats the feeling of having a wife and two cute kids to come home to, and spending at least some time with them, even if they are a lot of work most of the rest of the time. ;-)

All of this is pretty common sense stuff, but it's amazing how many times we have to remind ourselves of it. Sit down and evaluate what you want in your life, and that will help you find the job that accomodates those goals.

I'd do it.

[Spy der Mann]

My current job was very interesting at first, but it's gotten somewhat boring. Actually I've been looking forward to a paycut to have more free hours so I can work on things I like, i.e. Open Source development. Currently i get too tired from the job to keep on going, but by programming on Open Source projects, I feel like I'm helping the world and all that.

I'd like you to ask yourself this question: "Do I see myself doing this for the next 20 years?" Note that I didn't say '... in the next 20 years', but 'during the next 20 years'. Sometimes a boring job really gets to your nerves, and as marriage, when it gets boring, you tend to stop liking it and then it goes all downhill.

Fortunately, jobs aren't marriages, and you can quit whenever you decide. So, this seems to be the moment of your decision. Plus, when you get the other job experience, later you'll be able to ask for a raise :)

I'd say go for it, I'm sure you won't regret the decision. And if you do regret it, at least you'll have gained the good experiences of the new job - something you can't gain in the current one, don't you think? :)

"me too"

[eagl]

I gave up a great programming job in 1990 that would pay me as an intern through college and then hire full time on graduation at over $35,000 entry level, not bad back in 1990. 10 years later, I passed up an opportunity to transition to an airline job that would pay in excess of $120,000/year after 3 years in the company. I married a doctor 3 years ago and if I quit my job today, she could join a private practice and make well over $350,000 per year while I kicked it doing... well, anything really.

What job has led me to make these financially retarded career moves?

I'm a USAF fighter pilot.

Woot.

Re:"me too"

[dr_dank]

What job has led me to make these financially retarded career moves?

I'm a USAF fighter pilot.

Does your ego routinely write checks that your body can't cash?

Re:"me too"

[Lord_Dweomer]

Hey eagl, serious question...how tough is your job? I know its got some perks, like pushing the limit in a multimillion dollar fighter jet with the capability to unleash massive destruction....but what are the downsides? Does anything in the job ever make you think to yourself "man, I gotta get out of this"?

Re:"me too"

[Aladrin]

You know, the parent is modded Funny, but he's extremely on-target here. He has repeatedly given up the high-paying jobs to continue doing what an always-exciting job that he loves. As the submitter was asking whether or not it is worth it, this is extremely relevant.

This man has not only said 'take the fun job!' but has actually done it and proven that it works.

I'm not saying there's nothing funny about the post, but I find it quite an important post on the topic at hand.

Re:"me too"

[eagl]

Hey eagl, serious question...how tough is your job? I know its got some perks, like pushing the limit in a multimillion dollar fighter jet with the capability to unleash massive destruction....but what are the downsides? Does anything in the job ever make you think to yourself "man, I gotta get out of this"?

I won't compare it to other tough jobs, but it is very stressful. A 12 hour work day is standard when flying due to 12 hour off-duty rest requirements prior to the next flight (leaving 12 hours to work, right?) and since we're so macho, anyone griping about the work is laughed at so the work pretty much builds to completely fill our day. It's not uncommon to arrive at work at 0400 in the morning and go home at 8 pm that night if you're not flying the next day, otherwise you leave work 12 hours before you have to be at work the next day.

Add on the death/destruction nature of the work, having close friends of yours get splattered from hitting the ground at 600 knots following as little as 4 seconds of inattention, 4 or more months away from home every year, moving your family to the other side of the world every 2 or 3 years, and the stress/strain adds up.

On top of that, the fact that a fighter pilot is the end result of a series of selection processes means that everyone we work with has been at the top of almost every competitive endeavor they've ever tried in their entire life. A quick example, is my career. And I'm not even all that good...

These numbers are by memory, so some of them may be a bit off. But the order of magnitude will be correct...
The year I went to the USAF Academy, there were around 250,000 inquiries. Of those, there were around 50,000 people who met the minimum entrance requirements. Of those, 10,000 were highly qualified. Of those, approx 1,600 were accepted. By the time I graduated, fully 1/3 of my class had quit or washed out. Of the 1000 graduates in my class, approx 800 were medically qualified for pilot training, but due to post-cold war drawdowns, there were only 225 pilot training slots. So just in getting my pilot training slot, I was one of 225 selected from a pool of over 350,000 potential applicants.

At pilot training, my class had 32 students. Of those 32, only 6 went to the fighter/bomber track. Of those 6, only 4 got fighters.

Not trying to beat my chest, but I'm trying to get across the point that not only is uncompromising drive for excellence and actual job competence a requirement, everyone else I work with has these same values and to some degree, if we want to get promoted then we must somehow stand out from our peers. That's easier for some people than others, and frankly sometimes it seems like I struggle just to keep up with everyone else just because everyone else is so damn good.

I won't dig too deep into the remaining sources of stress, except to mention that our primary job, that of being a fighter pilot, is extremely difficult and complex. Technology, tactics, and threats are constantly changing and failing to keep up results in getting killed, getting your wingman killed, not hitting your target or worse, killing the wrong people when employing weapons. I fully understand that the guy changing the oil in my car may have just as much pride in his job as anyone else, but nobody's going to get killed if he can't recite the molecular composition of every major brand of oil on the market or describe in detail the construction methods used to make an oil filter. You can bet that (as one small example) needing to memorize the tactical capabilities and limitations of around 100 enemy weapons systems is going to be a source of stress.

A quick note about medical issues - I estimate up to 20% of pilots I've flown with have serious but undiagnosed back injuries. They are undiagnosed because as soon as you tell the doc about them, you're grounded. I flew on a herniated L5-S1 disc for 6 years before the pain crippled me and I had to go to the doc to get it fixed. I

Re:Yes...

[horatio]

...there is absolutely no money in this area ... and quite frankly I don't care. I just want to build something cool.

The mortgage, car loan+insurance, electric bill, groceries, etc don't pay themselves. I would enjoy spending my time running my own business. But I'm not in a position to quit my day job right now and expect the lights to be on for very long.

That being said, this is America - you can do and be nearly anything you want if you're willing to work at it. You might have to get a McJob to pay the rent if you want to build robots in your garage (HP, Atari?), but no one can force you to work for corp this or that. In your case, if robotics is a field that interests you, hunt for and complete your education and then maybe a job in the industrial sector (heavy machinery, vehicle production, other factory-type settings) working on their equipment. You might not be building "something cool" for a while, but the experience will be invaluable.

Just a few thoughts from someone who should have studied harder in school...

I did it

[(shea48)]

I took a $20,000 pay cut to work for a young media company. The people are fresh and exciting, the office is cool, and I am the one man IT shop (meaning my way is the way it is). But temper this with no set procedures for anything, management with permanent crisis on their hands, and the knowledge that we might not make the payroll next month.

There are ups and downs to every job, but really think hard about who you are, how you like to work and remember that 1 in hand is worth 6 in the brush.

The goal is fun/stimulation, no?

[Ruff_ilb]

Some people go through life putting up with work so that they can make enough money to afford to have fun at home. I don't personally like this view; regardless of how much fun you have at home, you've still got 8 hours of guaranteed boredom/misery at least 40 hours a week.

On the other hand, if you can get paid less and have fun AT WORK, you're MUCH better off. Ask yourself this - How much would you pay for 40 hours a week of fun?

If the difference between your current job and the more interesting job is less than or equal to that amount, you might need a switch.

Re:Less pay, more stimulation

[richardtoohey]

I would try and change the work itself to use tools/techniques that you are interested in. Show that there is a better / cheaper / faster / more elegant way. Use code generators to knock up the code that is needed for the job in hand - in half/quarter/whatever of the time - and with the spare time learn something else.
Empower *yourself* to make *your* job more interesting. Take yourself (and the role you occupy) to the next level. Save your stonking salary in a bank account while your outgoings are low. If your current employers don't notice you and your new skills and your better ways of doing things - you've just got a lot of money in the bank and a lot of skills - the world is your oyster.

It really depends on the work and the manager

[cbreaker]

Well, sorta. There's a difference between a manager that knows the field, and one that does not. While I can not expect my boss to know all that I do, and perhaps I wouldn't really want him to, I do like my boss to know the basics of the technology so he/she can appreciate the magnitude of the work, timetables, impacts, etc.

Being an IT manager is not so different then being a project manager. Almost everything done is a project in some way or another, besides the normal daily admin tasks that don't generally fill the day. If you have an IT-illiterate boss that is capable of effectively running projects and trusting his "experts" (employees) it can work. Unfortunately, I've met very few effective project managers, so to balance it out, it helps to have a boss that knows the technology - even a little.

Depends on the type of manager.

[ashitaka]

A project manager should naturally know more than his staff as he needs to make decisions that require technical knowledge of the issues involved.

A general business manager should not know more than his staff as they are the ones who should be carrying out the tasks and be able to make the technical decisions themselves.

A conflict between these two is what cost me my last job. I was required to be a business manager by the law firm's new CFO but knew far more technology than my staff. The small size of my team relative to the projects we were undertaking and the demands of the firm support staff and other managers created a situation where I had to be more hands-on than the CFO wanted. In the end I was replaced by a non-technical manager with no warning whatsoever.

I'm filling time doing the private consulting gig but would rather be in full-time project management.

Re:Depends on the type of manager.

[pointbeing]

A project manager should naturally know more than his staff as he needs to make decisions that require technical knowledge of the issues involved.

Respectfully disagree. I'm an IT project manager with a strong technical background and a sprinkling of acronyms after my name. My job is to paint the big picture and keep the project on track - it's not my job to make technical decisions. It *is* my job to act on technical recommendations from qualified subordinates.

IT project managers should *not* make technical decisions unless required to resolve differences between subordinate teams - that's what subordinate managers are for.

The transition from geek to manager is a difficult one and I think many companies make a huge mistake hiring managers from the technical ranks - well, not without training them as managers first. Out of the box a good tech is almost *never* a good manager.

Work for your sense of self

[DanTheLewis]

Money is great, but all it represents is the investment of your time. It is a limitless commodity. Your time, unfortunately, is not.

I watched Groundhog Day recently. It's nice that Bill Murray learned to love and to play the piano, but I probably would've spent the first million years in the public library. If they'd had the internet then, maybe the first billion years.

Anyway, I digress. You don't have a billion years, you have three score and ten, plus or minus two score. For a huge chunk of that time, say forty hours a week for several decades, you're at work.

Think about what kind of life you want to have. If it's a life filled with a lot of stuff, maybe you belong at a job where you can buy it all. If it's a life where you do what you want after age 40 or 50, maybe you belong at a job where you can save up the millions of dollars necessary. But if it's a life where you do meaningful work, maybe you need to leave.

The meaning of work is intertwined with the meaning of life. I can't tell you what the meaning of your life is. Even if I knew, you wouldn't listen; at some level, you have to discover it for yourself. 40 hours a week is more than a third of your waking life, so figure out if you need your work to mean anything to you.

Also consider that your work is reshaping your personality. I got back to graduate CS after several years of work that was often drudgery, managed by someone else, with my work time accountable to the nearest six minutes. Experiences like that wear away at you; the thousand tasks you do will recreate your mind. Figure out if they're changing you in a direction you like.

Paul Graham wrote a good essay about work recently.

Family. Hobby. Job.

[Total_Wimp]

Family. Hobby. Job. Any time one starts to lose out to the others you should start to worry. Life needs to find a ballance.

My job is actually too stimulating at the moment. I'd take a small pay cut to find a less interesting one.

TW

There's more one way to do it

[plopez]

Well, I went a couple of rounds of pay negotiation at my present job. I gave my employer 3 alternatives:
1) Significant reduction in required hours with no cut in pay and benis or
2) A significant pay raise or
3) A moderate pay raise with an increase in vacation time.

They opted for #3. So at this time I am looking at 4 weeks annual vacation (very unusual for the US), plus holidays and some personal days. (BTW, they way I worked it out in terms of hourly pay over the year, the options worked out to be almost identical, no matter what option my employer chose).

So before bailing out, impact all your options. Maybe they can give you release time to take classes, more vacation time,working 35 hours a week etc. to keep you from being bored. A start up, speaking form experience, is a crap shoot. You could get rich. Or you could end up like me, burned out and deeply cynical, having ruined my health working insane hours for a startup and getting laid off anyway.

How about the other way around?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm actually in a situation where I am passionate about my work (running a computer repair department) but I am unable to run it as I would like to. Because of this, I'm seeking a mundane, 9-5 type job that has nothing to do with computers, so that I can focus on my passion in my free time, and I actually have something to look forward to when I get home. I guess both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses.

OSS can keep you occupied and you might find someb

[tlspurli]

You could try joining an Open Source project to give yourself a challenge, something to occupy your time, and possibly tools to help make your job more exciting.

I second this.

[PCM2]

I agree. I've usually taken the option of quitting. I don't regret any of those choices -- in most cases they have translated into career advancement, by giving me options that are more likely to pay off for me in the long term. However, speaking as one who actually has a job he wouldn't mind keeping for a while (for once), I can say that I wish my career had become more stable earlier in my life. That would have given me more of an opportunity to start putting money away. Depending on what part of the country you live in, the downpayment on your first home can be a massive thing. I live in San Francisco, and if I wanted to get in on property in this town I should have done it at least five years ago. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to put together the nest egg.

Also, don't underestimate the possiblity of early retirement. My parents retired before sixty and they have never been happier in their whole lives. I know that for young people it seems ideal to have all your fun when you're young. But go figure how much more fun you can have when the fun never actually has to stop, because you've worked it out so that you never have to have a job again.

work with someone else, please

[misanthrope101]

It's great if you can find self-actualization in your work, but the world is full of flakes who expect too much satisfaction from what they do. If it isn't interesting, challenging, rewarding, and fulfilling, then they can't be bothered, but it still has to be done, and they are the ones standing there getting paid to do it, not to placate their inner unique snowflake. Trained workers don't spring into existence to take the place of the ones who won't work because they feel that they're "not really into it." I work with some of these people, and mostly they just have a high sense of entitlement.

I have a totally bleak outlook on work--to me, it's just an exchange of time/effort for money/benefits. But the strange thing is, I do the work. I work longer hours, more willingly, than some of those around me who claim to take "pride" in what they do, because I figure if I'm going to be a whore, at least I'll be a good whore and earn the man's money.

The only hard part is faking the orgasm, because the boss-people don't want to hear that you work there for money and benefits. So I occasionally have to act as if it was great, the best I've ever had, wow may I have another, just to appease the "love what you do!" Nazis. God how I hate them.

Making Changes

[LinuxLuver]

I gave up a 23 year career in IT to do two new jobs: farmer and corrections officer in the local prison.

The money is about 25% of what I used to get paid.....but the work is better.

Re:"me too" - book recommendation

[eagl]

Real world training can transfer to gaming to a certain extent, but there are considerations required for gaming that can't be gotten from real life experience. The user interface, small/distorted viewport looking through the monitor, and network transmission lag time all require game-specific reflexes and skills. For that reason, gaming skills don't transfer too well to real life either. The reflexes and priorities are simply tuned wrong.

I will say that a flight-sim gamer would do a lot better in a real aircraft than someone with no experience at all. But a real life fighter pilot is going to romp all over a gaming "ace" simply due to the depth of real life considerations that he's learned to deal with, such as the demanding physical environment. As with anything, some people are "naturals" and for these few people, flightsims are just another dynamic experience that will transfer to anything they do, from flying to playing golf. But for most people, there is no substitute for actual flight time.

The best book I can think of for a gaming simmer is Robert Shaw's "Figher Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering". I think it's still in limited print, otherwise you should be able to easily find a used copy on Amazon or wherever. It's a bit dated where it comes to modern jet combat, but if you can handle the level of detail it's probably the best introduction to aerial combat you'll find anywhere outside of a secure military location. The list of sources is worth just as much as the book itself, and if I recall correctly (I read Shaw's book at around age 14 in high school) you could probably find enough reading material referenced in this one book to keep you busy for a couple of years.

If you want to get really "good at flight sims", check out Aces High 2 at http://www.hitechcreations.com/ You won't find a better place to improve flightsim skills against real opponents than in the AH arenas. Yea there's a monthly fee to use the full arenas, but their head 2 head arenas and software are free if you just want to check it out without subscribing.