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Conflicting Reports of PS3 Programming Difficulty
xenongamer writes "It appears there isn't any type of concensus regarding the programming difficulty of Sony and IBM's upcoming Cell processor. From the article: 'Although few doubt the relative power of the Cell microprocessor, many have expressed concern over the chip's asymmetric design, which makes programming for it a potential disaster ... One such man was 3D artist Josh Robinson, who was fired from his position at Sony just weeks after making a public, negative comment about PlayStation 3 development on his Internet blog.'"
The PS3 may be simultaniously difficult to program for if you are expecting a traditional, PC style, system, but not super difficult to program for if you're not. So, PC ports might be a bitch, but ground-up stuff may be easier than you'd expect.
What I've heard is that they have a development environment for the Cell processor (now released) that has at least a working compiler. If that's true, then they've already gone beyond what was available for the PlayStation 2, at least at the level of programming the Linux kit.
Craig Steffen
Craig Steffen
http://www.craigsteffen.net
Point - Multiprocessing systems are the general direction computing is going in. The new Mac's use it (core duo) , the PC's Hyperthreaded dual core's. Xbox 360's and of Course the PS3.
That said - Asumming the 360 has "Symmetric" architecture and the PS3 "Assymetric" as the guy is implying.
Lets discover exactly what the difference is between the two.
My understanding is that Symmetric multiprocessing (Xbox 360) gives each processor identical levels of responsibility for processing tasks. For example - on a linux SMP system the kernel will try to balance processes equally across each processor. Only if an application process is specifically written to thread its own tasks across both processors will it be shared across them. This is why having a multiprocessor computer rarely makes much difference to a uniprocessor machine unless the game is specifically written to take advantage of a multiprocessing environment. Games like this are currently rare.
Taking a look at Asymettric procesing... (PS3) This allows us to give each processors specific tasks. For example we could dedicate 1 cell chip to running say the AI for a game, another for the Player physics and the rest for graphics and sound. This actually makes the design of the system considerably simpler and easier to abstract - although it could be argued that it reduces the overall performace of the system. Good job then that the PS3 has more than twice the amount of processors as the 360. However the same can be said for the PS3 as the 360 - Unless games are specifically written to take advantage of a multiprocessor environment there is little advantage in having them. Both consoles are going to require a new mindset and learning curve before either will reach their true potential. This has always been the case and so long as technology keeps changing will continue to do so.
I'd like to add to this that ID Software is not traditionally a Playstation development studio. There are only two releases I can think of - Quake 2 (PSX) and Quake 3 (PS2). They are traditionally a PC studio - and their experience of development therefore lies in this area. XBox 360 is designed with this in mind. It does stand to reason that Carmack's team would agree with this - simply because the Microsoft Development platform is what they have been doing for years. Id like to hear what a tradional Playstation dev studio says about the 360 as a development platform, or Nintendo for example.
Pick any console from any manufacturer. compare a launch title with another title on the same platform later in its lifecycle. In most cases there will be significant improvements this shows only that it takes time - (and library updates) to climb to the top.
Despite all of this I have to say that what matters most of all here is not how powerful one system or another is. What really matters are the games. At this moment in time I can't justify buying a new console just because it has better graphics or sound. Those things matter less and less as time goes by- The game plays the same no matter how many more polygons it is or isnt shifting. Lets be honest here - leaving visuals and sound out of the equation - what kinds of gameplay can be created now that could never have been done prior to these next generation machines? Perhaps the answer to that question can hinted at by looking at the kinds of tasks most suited to multiprocessing systems.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
It's been five years the PC/Dreamcast/Xbox crowd has been hoping that tired old "hard to program" bullshit would have some effect on the console market. I guess they believe if they keep repeating it's gotta 'stick' eventually.
Having worked on console games for a very long time, I've watched people desperately try to get console developers and publishers to believe that meme.
I have first had knowledge of and a rough idea of a huge number of console project budgets and schedules from a mix of projects I've worked on, near, or from people I know throughout the industry.
There isn't any difference in project budgets, lengths, or team sizes for PS2,GameCube,Xbox,PS3,360 titles.
Sorry. I know that isn't what a certain crowd wants to hear.
Salary is almost always the largest part of a game development budget - usually by a wide margin. Any significant difference in either team size or length of time a company/publisher has to pay a team to get a project out the door would make that platform a massively attractive to target titles for. Even something as modest as ~20 percent smaller teams or projects lengths could result in hundreds of thousands of dollars in development money saved that goes straight into profits.
This bogus meme seems to be one of the crown jewels of 'bad stuff about the PS2/PS3' for the PC/Dreamcast/Xbox crowd and I doubt they will ever willing give up trying to get developers and publishers to believe and then we will target their platform with our games.
Ain't gonna happen. Give it a rest. Find something new. The 'hard to program' line isn't just old, it's boring.
Nintendo isn't exactly on the forefront of anti-piracy method when you really think about it.
Well, I ended up doing some searching, and it turns out that they've actually tried to crackdown on piracy quite a bit.
Nintendo's Late 2004 Piracy Crackdown
Nintendo Wins Lik Sang Piracy Case
Lik Sang On Nintendo Piracy Judgment
It sounds like Nintendo hasn't really invested much in DRM in the past, but instead chooses to go after sellers, and companies like Lik Sang, which manufactured "backup devices". I agree with the former, but the latter seems like a stretch, and ideally screws over legitamate users of the devices.
I wonder if they'll continue down the same road. Don't bother locking down the media, but go after the pirates themselves, and possibly whatever tools that they use to do the dirty work. (Sony and Microsoft have been doing the same thing, trying to go after modders that open up the box for piracy)
-- jchenx
Now, all I have to ask is -- how the FUCK is that even possible? The PS3's specs beat the Xbox360's in every possible way!
A lot of the theoretical power in the PS3 comes from multiplying the power of each processor times the number of processors. Actually being able to make use of parallel processing power is notoriously hard. Usually one step of a computation depends on another. Programming for concurrency is in general a nightmare. Games will be buggier and much harder to develop if they want to make full use of the parallel cores. Sorry, no free lunch here.
Comparing the specs of the system is not straightforward. You can't just do something like a 0-60 mph benchmark like you would for a car. I don't think you are up for it, but if you want to get an inkling of the tradeoffs involved, here's a link: Microsoft's Xbox 360, Sony's PS3 - A Hardware Discussion
I feel sorry for the developers who have to make their games portable for both systems. I suspect we will get a lot of lowest-common-denominator games. It will be interesting to see if Sony can make a game that shows off the PS3 in a way that the 360 can't match.
And the fact that Microsoft purchased them for a huge wad of cash a few weeks later was a complete coincidence...
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak