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Shuttleworth on Open Source Development

An anonymous reader writes "Mark Shuttleworth (retired cosmonaut and Ubuntu daddy) has written an informative blog entry about the problems associated with open source development. He found that paying geeks to code without assigning them managers lead to "shiny geek toys", rather than the product he was actually paying for. Shuttleworth says that left-field thinking is required when it comes to managing open source teams. See also Andrew Orlowski's analysis of why AOL eventually killed the Netscape project from a few years ago, where he describes Mozilla developers as "wandering off into Lotus-eating land"."

25 of 162 comments (clear)

  1. Exactly... by raydobbs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can have all the creativity you want - but without proper leadership, all that effort and talent goes wasted. I have a few creative friends that have all these wonderful ideas - but they have no idea on the concepts of project planning or management of resources. Needless to say, their killer applications are still brain children - and not actually out here where the rest of us can use them.

    1. Re:Exactly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Every project (free or non) needs project management. Whether
      it is a screaming idiot standing around keeping things in
      line, or a strategic documented list of direction and goals
      which are adhered-to, it is a must.

      If the project lacks direction, you get what you get. No
      sympathy here. I've written a lot of OS/2 apps in the
      past and learned quickly how misdirection occurs without
      documented direction. This isn't limited to Open Source.

      At my current employer, we've hired project consulting firms
      to complete system tasks of which they pushed the programming
      tasks to VB-coders who turn out the most _incomplete crap_
      we've ever seen. (it happens a lot) Usually, the apps do not
      resemble the project spec', or contracted documents.

      There appears to be tonnes of it spewing into "Windows land"
      than is given credit.

    2. Re:Exactly... by eno2001 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with "leaders" is in how much they actually understand what's going on. Typically the people with strong leadership skills are totally clueless when it comes to understanding what is technically realistic. You've got people out there who are strong leaders but actually believe that if they wanted to have flying minibots all over the place that use anti-grav drives for security services, that it's possible. Hate to break it to them, but it's NOT possible. That's the typical leader with strong skills. What's needed are people with strong technical skills who can lead a group of other coders. That is an impossible requirement because the people who excel at technical abilities are typically horrible leaders. Usually because they don't understand how to interact properly with others, or they can't let people work in their own way and they try to force their staff to be just like them. It's a rare person who understands technology enough to design realistic products AND can manage other people.

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    3. Re:Exactly... by QRDeNameland · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think one of the reasons that technical people make such poor managers is due to inflexible thinking in many corporate environments. In every place that I've worked, I've seen managers that were quite good at managing projects (in terms of getting the people they manage to do great work that meets or exceeds expectations), but invariably that management position comes along with expanding amounts of corporate middle management stuff (reviews, HR, tracking employee hours, days off, etc., etc.) which such people either hate or are poor at or both.

      The result is that many people who could competently manage a technical project tend to avoid such positions because of the BS that goes along with it, and the people who do aspire to the management positions are the ones that aren't that good technically and, though they may be decent managers in the corporate sense, often times are over their heads when providing direction on the actual project.

      The best solution in my experience would be to decouple technical project management from corporate/HR management. The person who leads the project should be focused on the project, and let it be someone else's job to deal with the corporate/employee issues.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
  2. I'm not so sure.... by knarph · · Score: 3, Insightful

    that shiny geek toys are all that bad. I can't think of one thing that my grandmother (who is as far from a geek as one can get) uses every day that wasn't once a shiny geek toy to someone.

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    1. Re:I'm not so sure.... by quanticle · · Score: 1, Insightful

      /*I can't think of one thing that my grandmother (who is as far from a geek as one can get) uses every day that wasn't once a shiny geek toy to someone.*/

      Yes, but the reason that its still not a "shiny geek toy", but is a grandmother-friendly tool is that someone went to the trouble of putting a proper user interface on it and testing for widespread (read: real-world) application.  The article just restates a problem that many others have seen with open-source projects: the geeks create all sort of shiny toys and efficient frameworks, but nobody actually bothers to test it for ease-of-use, or put a decent user-interface on top.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    2. Re:I'm not so sure.... by knarph · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure enough, but if the geek toys were never made, she'd still be using the same crap that was around when she was born, but with a better interface. I'm sure putting a new UI on a steam engine would do it some good, but only to a point.

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  3. Who woulda thunk it? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Insightful
    He found that paying geeks to code without assigning them managers lead to "shiny geek toys", rather than the product he was actually paying for.

    Do ya think? How long did it take him to reach that conclusion?

    Seriously folks, this is a given and one of the main reasons I don't buy into all the hype about the electronic toy du jour. Everytime I see an article somewhere which says that 'X' is the latest electronic whiz toy that everyone must have I just roll my eyes and move along. (As a side note to marketers, I don't watch your commercials or read your flyers in the paper. You may now explode with unmitigated rage because I'm stealing from you for not watching what you produce.)

    I don't want to be forced to buy a DVD player which plays DVDs, mpegs, connects to the net, calls my vet or offers me advice on what wine goes well with acadian rigatoni. I want the machine to play DVDs. Period.

    By their very nature geeks (true geeks) will shovel every bell and whistle into a device they can get away with because that is what they do. They want to see how much cruft they can tack onto the hardware simply to see if it can be done. Top that off with manuals (the paper ones if you're lucky enough to get one) which are so poorly written and obtuse that the average user has to take lessons to learn how to program their device, and the market becomes filled with devices whose half-life is as long as the life of a fruit fly.

    To all who produce this crap, here's a hint: Stop making a swiss army knife out of every product. If you absolutely must put tinsel on the tree, make three trees. The first is bare bones (i.e. just a cell phone. no music, games, etc). The second has a few more items (include games and music). The third has everything (bleeding edge). If you check your sales figures you'll be surprised to learn which one sells the best (hint: it's not number three).

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:Who woulda thunk it? by DiSKiLLeR · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you check your sales figures you'll be surprised to learn which one sells the best (hint: it's not number three).>

      Actually, I think, you will be quite surprised to find out that it actually IS number three.

      --
      You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
    2. Re:Who woulda thunk it? by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Insightful
      By their very nature geeks (true geeks) will shovel every bell and whistle into a device they can get away with because that is what they do.

      Only if that device is not a true Device.

      A true Device does one thing and does that one thing well; it has clearly defined inputs and does not mind what the input comes from, and it has clearly defined outputs and does not mind what the output goes to.

      Then the Geek is happy, for with many such Devices and an assortment of cables the Geek can assemble a composite System that meets his needs exactly. It is the True Way. It is the UNIX Way.

      Thus it is that my TV aerial cable goes into the back of the digibox, whose output then goes into the back of the VCR, whose output then goes into the TV card, whose output then goes to mplayer, whose output goes to the screen.

      But if a device tries to thwart a Geek in this fine pursuit? Then it is that the Geek takes it up as a challenge to force that device to do his own bidding, to mod it to suit himself, to make it act as a Device and not as a mere device.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    3. Re:Who woulda thunk it? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 2, Insightful
      By their very nature geeks (true geeks) will shovel every bell and whistle into a device they can get away with because that is what they do.

      The true geek will make it as minimal as possible, stripping out features until you get down to a barebones command line interface. (That's not what grandma wants either.)

      It is often marketing departments who are responsible for your DVD player offering you 'premium' or 'sponsored' content recommending particular wines.
      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    4. Re:Who woulda thunk it? by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Insightful


      By their very nature geeks (true geeks) will shovel every bell and whistle into a device they can get away with because that is what they do.


      I guess I'm not a "true geek" then. There's definitely a set of people that will do just that. There's also a very large amount of people that follow the mantra "Keep it simple, stupid". You really don't need to look much farther than all the extremely successfull open source software projects to know that what you're saying simply isn't true. Is Linus Torvalds not a "true geek" because he's an extremely practical leader?

      I guess I'm not exactly sure why you're even blaming this phenomenon on un-managed geeks, or even open source. Have you opened up Microsoft Word lately? It's full of every bell and whistle you could imagine.

      --
      AccountKiller
  4. Not only open source projects... by herve_masson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree with most of what he said, except I don't think its limited to open source projects. I have seen that on purely commercial context as well. The problem is that you *need* some kind of "geek toys" occasionnally, because they sometimes give birth to a very valuable technology (I've seen that many times). That's a complex task to find the fair balance between what is reasonable/valuable and what is not in term of focus diversion, and that's a hell of a management task to deal with people who can't see that balance (either way).

  5. Why blame OSS? by ameoba · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It sounds like he hired a team of talented but flakey developers and is generalizing this to all OSS development. I don't think the problem has anything to do with OSS - it has to do with a team of guys thinking they have free reign to do what they want with no expectations, deadlines or oversight.

    --
    my sig's at the bottom of the page.
  6. Re:His project needs an architect by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I think his project ultimately would have been successful if he'd started with a strong architectural design.

    Strong architectural design definitely helps. However, it's not the be-all-to-end-all. In OSS development you have to be aware that your programmers are volunteers. They can and WILL step out the door at inopportune times, start arguements over architectural designs, and spend time working on what they think is cool rather than what is needed.

    To get a project to absorb much of this chaos, you can do a few things to help the project:

    1. Start with an existing codebase, usually an intial version written by a single author.
    2. Hire programmers who you can tell what to do (and fire if they don't) to get a core going.
    3. Get your architect to contribute code to the vision.
    4. Start a competition between areas of the project to see who can hit more milestones. (This isn't easy, but it's great motivation when it works.)
    5. State that something is impossible just so that someone produces the "impossible" code. (Sneaky, I know. :-P)
  7. And what else did you expect? by dchallender · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As far as I could see, very little in the way of specification, design / architecting.
    Without a reasonable framework it was inevitable the project collapsed.

    The actual coding should be a minor part of a project, the real blood, sweat and tears is the spec and the architecting / design (and usability / test side of things): If that is done well enough then the coding should be a simple join the dots task.

    Without architecture / design constraints then you will get toys for the boys (and girls) as there is no pressure / direction on them to do otherwise.

  8. XUL by Britz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I always kept wondering what exactly XUL was developed for when a browser was needed. I don't know the timeline, but wasn't Gtk ready about the time they started Mozilla? I know that Qt was for a long time worthless for cross platform free stuff, because Trolltech charged money for the win32 version (which they had every right to do so).

  9. Schooltool link by BeardsmoreA · · Score: 2, Insightful
    In case people are too lazy to spend 3 seconds on google... (Which from some comments above seems to be the case)

    http://www.schooltool.org/

    Summary of current status as I read it: SchoolTool still isn't really there, but they did manage to get the spinoff 'SchoolBell' out there, and the SchoolTool work is ongoing and being included in the 'Edubuntu' distro.

  10. A Generic Failure by jamesl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This has nothing to do with Open Source. It is about trying to develop a product without a spec., without an architect, without management and without a timeline. Kind of like pointing a group of carpenters at an empty lot and telling them to build a school.

    It wouldn't be any more or less successful at Microsoft, IBM or SAS.

  11. 30 year old philosphy... by deadlinegrunt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...is still valid? Do one thing, do it well.

    Imagine that - simple, solid advice survives time. Reminds me of the Twelve Networks Truths of RFC 1925 Section 2-11

    --
    BSD is designed. Linux is grown. C++ libs
  12. Example: Why start Adept when we have YAST? by UseFree.org · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Mark Shuttleworth is subsidizing the Kubuntu team is working on a software installer named Adept. I find this to be rather wasteful, since there is already an extremely feature-rich, robust and mature installer from SUSE named YAST. YAST is Free and Open Source (GPL) and it is built on the Qt/KDE framework and integrated in the KDE Control Center, so it would fit very nicely in the Kubuntu environment.

    YaST is the app that makes the proverbial "Linux on the Desktop" a reality. It is the most robust, comprehensive and user-friendly configuration tool for GNU/Linux -- software management, hardware detection, system administration and much more. In short, it is everything the average newbie from W$ needs to set up and update his computer without having to touch the command line.

    Devising a new GUI app for installing packages is reinventing the wheel by duplicating the gigantic functionality of YAST. This project will only yield a half-baked solution that will get abandoned as soon as it starts tackling the more thorny issues that YAST has already solved.

    The YAST code is clean, and has already been used by Linux distros like Yoper, so it is definitely feasible to get it running under Debian/Kubuntu if their devs don't start reinventing the wheel. YAST might be complex, but then any program that excels at setting up and updating a Desktop Linux system is going to become complex no matter what.

    --
    Get computers and accessories from Linux-friendly manufacturers
  13. I feel like I've been had by phoenixdna · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It was an interesting article and well worth reading. But the fact that this is 3 years old is relevant in my opinion. I'm a little put off by the fact that this wasn't noted in the excerpt for the headline. Submitting this and passing it off as current news for the sake of making a point is bad form. This particular blog isn't new at all and so you know that someone didn't submit this just because they found it for the first time today and thought it was valid. Its a lot more likey that someone wanted to make a public point about open source software and dug this blog up out of the archives in order to do it. It you can find a newer link than this to make your point, then maybe this particular view is outdated and not worth spending very much time on.

  14. Re:Not some huge revelation... by xenocide2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Part of what makes Linux and GPL'd software so nifty is that with access to the source code one can do all sorts of wonderful and unexpected things. Port wondershape to the wrt54g. Replace svgalib with aalib and seamlessly render images and video streams as ascii art. Fit linux onto all sorts of silly places, including a windows device driver. Tune the linux scheduler parameters using adaptive genetic algorithms. Cook up packages for compiz before the distro puts it into stable. The ability to think outside the box and hack things in this manner is simultaneously the strongest advantage OSS has, and it's greatest obstacle.

    The greatest obstacle? Firstly, if you simply hire people familiar with open source, those who recognize the value of the above traits, you're likely to get something that satisfies their needs not yours. Maybe that compiz package requires a lot of extra effort on your part, because nobody's written a script to handle the simple textfile changes nessecary. Secondly, integrating silly hacks back into the core is a challenge. On the one hand, integrating them into the core encourages more, which we like. It also means that the hack gets all the benefits of future improvements. On the other hand, not every hack is easily maintainable, nor easily integrated. Every time you reject a patch, you discourage people from offering in the future, and the risk of someone pissed off and forking your project increases. Not that forking things is always bad, but a fork in spite is bound to not only divide resources but increase overheads, potentially causing a net loss in future value of the software.

    Shuttleworth believes he can fix this by making communication among groups more explicit. I doubt it will improve anything. On his next attempt, perhaps he should make his team a stakeholder in a very dear sense. Not bonuses for completion or anything silly. Make them run a school with the software -- Eat their own dogfood. The core team will have to shift their focus on making the software work for them in ways similar to other schools. Maybe they could start a school about hacking on OSS. Teach the newbs the labrynthian ways of the autotools, how to take a tarball and make it a .deb, that sort of thing. Something the team wants to be successful and proud of.

    --
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  15. Peer Review by demon411 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    what we need is not management BUT

    -payment to coder only when the product meets requirements
    (why did anyone get paid if all you got were shiny toys!)
    -select coders who can self manage
    -peer review

    Peer Review is very important! You could have college students doing it, as long as someone goes in there and checks that the code does what it says it should.

    Was in process of moderating but removed my moderation to make this comment

  16. Paying geeks to code without managers by heroine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seems lots of places do quite well with egalitarian structures. No-one complains about India, Japan, China putting out shiny geek toys or wandering into lotus land even though they don't have American "org charts".

    The issue is more to do with programmers who can't stay on track rather than programmers who ignore the "org chart".